Problem with Stoeger ATAC
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Problem with Stoeger ATAC
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Topic: Problem with Stoeger ATAC (Read 3325 times))
Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
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Real Name: Tom
Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
on:
October 31, 2017, 12:24:38 PM »
I'm having a problem with my 22 cal ATAC that I hope you guys can help with. The guns accuracy is good ammo except for flyers that always go very low and right. At 25 yards they go 6-8 inches low and usually about 1 inch right. In a 10 shot group it will do this at least once and sometimes twice. I really like this gun but this problem is driving me nuts. My chrono shows velocity has a small spread between shots so the power plant is good.
I mounted a different scope, loaded the gun the same way as best I could, and tried to do the most consistent hold possible with no change.
I took some measurements at the breech area and found that a .002 feeler gauge will not enter the gap between the barrel and receiver. The gun seems to lock up tight but I can't tell if it is fully closed or not. The pivot washers and wedges are well lubed with moly and everything moves freely.
I also found that the gap between the barrel pivot points and receiver ears is not the same. On the right side nothing higher than a .002 feeler gauge will enter the gap but on the left I can get a .011 gauge to enter but I don't think this would cause pellets to drop like they do.
I suspect that the barrel/receiver gap is too small and not allowing proper lock up. I hesitate to rework this area until I have more information. I can always remove material but can't put it back. I am far from an expert on air gun issues like this and would appreciate any comments. Thanks.
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NE Pa
Roadworthy
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Real Name: Thomas
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #1 on:
October 31, 2017, 01:34:29 PM »
There are a few possibilities for your problem. I'll hit a couple and you'll probably hear from others along the way.
Since you mention pivot spacing let's look at that. Cock the gun and place the butt on the floor with the fore stock held firmly between your legs. Grab near the muzzle and try moving the barrel from side to side. It should not move at all relative to the rest of the gun. Any movement allows changes to point of impact.
Pay very close attention each time to how you hold the gun when shooting - hand position, cheek position, etc. A deviation of even a quarter inch can throw your point of impact off. Be very careful to pull the trigger straight back every time. Any sloppiness there will show up at your target.
How's your crown? Looking at the muzzle you should see clearly defined grooves at equally spaced intervals.
If all is in order there is no substitute for practice. If you practice good form and proper trigger control it will become a habit and you'll need to pay less close attention over time.
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Near the Southern Coast of Washington State
Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
longhunter
what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
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Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #2 on:
October 31, 2017, 02:26:43 PM »
What pellets are you using? Have you tried several different kinds, and settled on the ones that you currently use, or just grabbed a tin of "whatever" ,and called it a day? ( not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to figure out if it might be your choice of ammo, or not ).
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Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
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Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #3 on:
November 01, 2017, 07:47:44 AM »
Roadworthy,
I have the gun apart right now but will try what you suggested and see what happens. I have tried to be consistent with my hold but maybe I can improve here.
I can't check the crown since it has the suppressor attached and from what I've read they can sometimes be a real bugger to get off and it doesn't appear that Stoeger intended them to be removed either.
I admit that I do tend to concentrate more on trigger control than my hold, maybe the reverse is in order. I did mod the trigger and did get some improvement but it's still not that great.
Longhunter,
I have about 12 brands brands and weights of pellets and this gun prefers H&N Barracuda 21.1gr pellets. I rounded up 5 different brands last weekend and headed to the back yard.
Target set at 25 yards. 5 shots at each target. Zeroed for H&N Barracuda 21.1 (Not tested this time)
Beeman Silver Bear 12.6gr. Fair group with 2 shots landing 4" low than the rest. The ATAC does not group well with these but my Crosman 1322 loves them.
Stoeger X-Match 13.7gr Excellent group with 2 shots landing 3" low.
H&N Sport 12.6gr Good group with no low shots this time.
Gamo Red Fire 15.4gr Excellent group with 1 shot landing 2" low.
RWS Hobby 11.9gr (Cheapies, I know) Lousy group with 3 shots landing 4" high this time, the only time shots went high.
A bit OT. I pitted the ATAC against my X20S2 two weeks ago and the ATAC got it's ^&* handed to it. I paid $99.00 for the X20 brand new, did some mods to get rid of the twang, smoothed and lubed everything, and installed a GTX trigger. The trigger change gives it an advantage so maybe it's not a fair evaluation but I thought the ATAC would do better.
I really like the look and feel of the ATAC and I am not willing to give up on it yet.
Have you fellows ever measured the gap between the receiver and breech face? Will a .002 feeler gauge enter at least down to the seal?
It just seems like a mighty tight tolerance on an air rifle usually known for fairly loose tolerances.
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longhunter
what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 5437
yes
Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #4 on:
November 01, 2017, 10:55:08 AM »
The gap shouldn't effect lock up, unless the breech seal is too proud of the breech face.
Try focusing more on your hold.
Pictures of your groups would help.
Have you chronographed the gun??
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casco, wi. USA
Seneca Aspen
Xisico Sentry
crosman model 1 first varient
Beeman P17
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Roadworthy
Honorary GTA Moderator
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 9706
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Real Name: Thomas
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #5 on:
November 01, 2017, 11:23:25 AM »
There is normally a gap between the forks and the barrel block as the forks do not support the barrel block. The pivot washers provide the support on that gun. You can measure the thickness of the barrel block and the distance between the pivot forks with the barrel removed to see approximately how much space there will be.
If the pivot washers are too thick it will spread the forks unevenly causing your gun to shoot to one side. If the washers are too thin you will have side play and erratic groups - usually side to side. Erratic latch up is not that common and will generally cause vertical stringing. That can also be a symptom of an improperly sized or defective piston seal.
Concentrate on your hold and your trigger pull. If using a scope, a defective one can affect groups. As you've undoubtedly learned, many things come into play when shooting a spring piston airgun. Remember, the gun starts moving from recoil before the pellet leaves the barrel. That is why a consistent hold is crucial to accuracy.
Suppressors have been known to cause problems on some guns as well. Sometimes gunk will build up in there to the point where pellet clipping is introduced and sometimes it is off just enough to cause pellet clipping. Either will cause unpredictable groups.
«
Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 11:33:22 AM by Roadworthy
»
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Near the Southern Coast of Washington State
Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #6 on:
November 01, 2017, 02:31:04 PM »
Thanks for the replies fellows. You both make a good point about hold technique and while this is something I am aware of I haven't concentrated trying different holds and methods to be consistent as possible. I've been looking at the gun for answers. Since my X20 doesn't have this problem and at present, will shoot circles around the ATAC I have tended to keep looking for a mechanical problem.
I checked the suppressor for any blockages and did not see anything. The clearance for the pellet to exit seems generous enough so I don't think that's an issue.
I can't supply any pics, my camera battery is pretty old won't take a charge and I use a Trac phone which is cheap to use but doesn't have picture taking ability.
As mentioned, I did chrony velocities and they are consistent even though this gun is not broken in yet.
Some examples are;
H&N Barracuda 21.1gr Average 611fps- High 615- Low 607
Gamo Red Fire 15.4gr Average 740fps- High 746- Low 735
H&N Sport HP 12.6gr Average 764fps- High 767- Low 761
Both my Stoegers like the Gamo Red Fire pellet and shoot them well.
The ATAC is much more finicky than the X20S even though they are basically the same gun. The ATAC absolutely hates the Beeman Silver Bear 12.6gr pellet, the X20S does okay with them but my Crosman 1322 loves them. Go figure.
Both do just okay with 14.3 Crosman Premiers.
One I must do is fix the trigger on buy one. It made a world of difference on the X20.
Since I now have an extra trigger I may try to modify it to make it like the GTX trigger. I don't have a bench press and drilling straight holes is not one of my strong points so I don't know how it will turn out.
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Roadworthy
Honorary GTA Moderator
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Real Name: Thomas
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #7 on:
November 01, 2017, 03:28:00 PM »
I hadn't thought of it - took it for granted - but if you haven't cleaned your barrel, try that. You can also push a pellet through the barrel testing for tight spots and loose spots.
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Near the Southern Coast of Washington State
Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #8 on:
November 02, 2017, 11:56:04 AM »
I did clean the barrel and used some JB bore paste per instructions and it did tighten groups some but I still get the low shots.
I haven't pushed a pellet through it yet, thanks for telling me that. If I get this straightened out I will report back what the problem was and how it is shooting.
Thanks for all the great info.
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NE Pa
TF89
Expert
Posts: 1016
Real Name: Dave
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #9 on:
November 02, 2017, 04:20:54 PM »
All great areas to look at and your numbers are good and consistent.
I had a gun that shot great at 30 yards and then a shot or two and even three would hit really low or miss the target and then it would shoot great for long periods then suddenly do it all again. In my case it was a bad piston seal or I should say a bad seal fit. Replaced the seal and the issue was gone.
Hope you get it settled out.
«
Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 04:24:17 PM by TF89
»
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Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #10 on:
November 08, 2017, 12:36:13 PM »
TF89,
Like you said, the numbers are good and consistent so I think the seal is good. Recently I removed the stock screws, added some light duty Loctite, and snugged them up good but not real tight. I also changed the scope and the mounts this time. I didn't get a chance to fire at distance yet but did fire 5 shots at 10 yards and the group was extremely small with no flyers so I'm hoping this problem is behind me. Since I made 2 changes I won't know which one solved the problem but as long as the problem is gone I will be happy.
Before, even at close range it would put one shot away from the others. I am anxious to see what it will do at 40 yards. I want to put a Charlie Da Tuna trigger on it since the OEM one is lousy but first I need to know that the flyer problem is solved.
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longhunter
what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 5437
yes
Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #11 on:
November 08, 2017, 07:38:49 PM »
Bet it was the scope. Were the stock screws tight before you removed them?
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casco, wi. USA
Seneca Aspen
Xisico Sentry
crosman model 1 first varient
Beeman P17
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Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #12 on:
November 09, 2017, 12:18:20 PM »
The stock screws were tight, maybe a bit too tight.
I did change the scope before (with no change) but not the mounts. This time I changed the scope and mounts.
Speaking of stock screws. The last time I shot my Hatsan 95 25 cal which usually holds a nice grouping it started scattering shots. It started gradually and the more I shot the worst it got. Problem?
The screw at the trigger guard came loose.
I added some Loctite, snugged up the screw, and the nice grouping returned.
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NE Pa
Christoph1945
Shooter
Posts: 6
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Real Name: Christopher
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #13 on:
November 10, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
Ok, I know that this is an old thread but I am wondering if you ever totally resolved the problems, or if you got rid of the Stoeger Atac?
Chris
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Cheshire, UK, England
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Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #14 on:
November 17, 2018, 08:27:26 AM »
Wow, this post is almost a year old already.
Chris, Yes I did fix the problem and yes I still have the ATAC. Turns out the scope mounts were bad. I did change scopes to try and correct the flyer problem without luck. It wasn't until I changed the mounts that things finally came together, the flyers stopped and the gun became a consistent shooter. I trashed the old mounts.
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Christoph1945
Shooter
Posts: 6
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Real Name: Christopher
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #15 on:
November 20, 2018, 05:26:49 AM »
Many thanks for the update. I am pleased to read that you didn't give up and are now getting an acceptable performance from your Stoeger Atac.
I own a Stoeger Atac Suppressor in 0.177 calibre, that I obtained as part of a swap for a metal detector that I no longer used. Initially impressed by the almost new condition of the gun and it's atractive appearance, I soon became disapointed by it's inconsistant performance. Have you made any changes to the trigger mechanism on your gun, and what is your opinion of the noise output from the Atac.
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Cheshire, UK, England
It's good to be alive; have a safe day.
Duke2756
Shooter
Posts: 79
yes
Real Name: Tom
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #16 on:
November 21, 2018, 01:29:09 AM »
I own 3 Stoegers and like them all. The X20S2, ATAC, and A30S2 all in 22 caliber. I shoot them more than any other model I currently have.
You swapped for a metal detector? lol Good deal.
If your gun is producing fliers and you checked all the obvious things like loose hardware I would start with the scope and rings. Also make sure that your scope adjustment is not near the end of it's travel. This can play *(&^ with accuracy.
I did change the trigger on mine. Charlie DaTuna sells them for $33.00 shipped, look him up.
It made a world of difference on mine, I'm sure you would benefit too. The OEM trigger is not so hot as you know.
As far as noise I find my ATAC very quiet. All I hear is a thump and the pellet hitting the target.
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Christoph1945
Shooter
Posts: 6
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Real Name: Christopher
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #17 on:
March 04, 2019, 06:07:01 AM »
I'm still working on my 0.177 Stoeger ATAC and am perhaps finally making some progress. Following up on some barrel conditioning advice on an other forum I stripped and checked the moderator elements, checked all screws and bolts, gave the scope and mounts a thorough check, and then gave the barrel a good cleaning.
Following on from the above, I then broke the seal on a new tin of 0.177 JBS Exact pellets and swore not to change pellets again until all 500 had been used up by the ATAC. Using just an old fashion magazine in my target box I took aim at a central point on the magazine and loosed the first pellet of ten down range. The first pellet hit some five or so inches lower than the point of aim but the following nine pellets slowly crept up towards the point of aim, without me having made any scope adjustments. Shooting over a distance of approximately eighteen yards the grouping of each group of ten pellets (shot at fresh targets) continued to improve.
After burning up 110 pellets shot in groups of 10, struggling to hold steady for follow through, and controlling breathing, my concentration was starting to wain and I put the ATAC away; quite pleased with the apparent improvement in the gun. I did, at one point, remove the bipod and shot ten pellets with the gun resting on a shooting bag but the gun returned to some of it's old 'naughty' ways.
Below is the best group of JSB Exacts, shot over eighteen yards, with the gun shooting off the bipod and I am hoping for the gun to continue to improve during the next session, over slightly longer distances.
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Cheshire, UK, England
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Christoph1945
Shooter
Posts: 6
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Real Name: Christopher
Re: Problem with Stoeger ATAC
«
Reply #18 on:
March 04, 2019, 06:19:12 AM »
Ps...…….I think that the slightly elongated, vertical, point of impacts is perhaps due to slight variations in the amount of fore and aft rock of the bipod.
When I removed the bipod, and shot from a bench bag, the gun dropped some pellets so low that they drilled right through the metal target holding clip and even chewed up some of the target box wood.
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Problem with Stoeger ATAC