GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: TimmyMac1 on April 24, 2014, 09:02:17 PM
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How to Soft Bed Spring Piston / Gas Ram Pellet guns. (by Mike Hancock)
Purpose: Floats spring tube metal on a thin, mushy layer of Neoprene up off of the stock wood.
Result: Reduces felt vibration, allows BENCH RESTING on firm sandbags which aids accuracy!
Get 1/8th-inch thick Neoprene from E-Bay- $4.95 includes shipping. Adhesive backed material.
It's the principal of floating metal off the wood. Use a box cutter and straight edge to cut 3/8th wide strips.
Peel paper off sticky back of neoprene strips. Single edge safety razor really helps get paper started off sticky back.
Place strips in bedding channel about 1/16 up from drop-off edge. It will mush down and fill the gap.
Put Two full length strips in channel (one on each side) leaving a gap back at the trigger from half way between trigger pins to the back of inletting. Small pieces fill back end of inletting leaving gap for cross pin and cut out to allow room for trigger group.
Full SOFT BEDDING COMPLETE Now you need to install the action into the wood.
Use "C" clamp to get front stock screws down far enough to start since they are now sitting on 1/8" of neoprene. Make sure you don't strip the screws. This is especially tricky when you have cups fitted. Start front stock screw holes first. Then do trigger guard screws.
INSTRUCTIONS AFTER BEDDING
1. Tighten all screws tight
2. Let sit overnight
3. Day 2 -- Morning -- Tighten Again
4. Day 2 -- afternoon -- Tighten Again -- shoot 20
5. Day three -- Tighten again -- DONE!
6. Periodically test screw tightness.
YOU HAVE A SOFT BEDDED PELLET GUN THAT WILL SHOOT SOFTER, QUIETER, AND MORE ACCURATELY.
YOU CAN HARD BENCH-REST YOUR SPRING PISTON AND GAS RAM GUNS NOW!
Principal Works for any GUN.
All guns have different stock inletting and cut-outs. Just put Neoprene on all wood surfaces where spring tube metal contacts the stock wood.
YOU WANT TO FLOAT THE METAL ON VERY THIN LAYER OF NEOPRENE SO IT'S NOT TOUCHING WOOD ANY LONGER.
Mike has done this to the following models with equal success on all. TX 200 / HW 97K / HW 77 / R-9 / R-7 / HW 50
Webley / Benjamin NP's / etc. He supplied Mac1 with this information so we could share it with everyone.
If you would like a 7250KB Word file with Pictures I can send you what Mike sent me. Just send an email to mac1airgun@gmail.com and Put "Soft Bed" in the subject. Large file no dial ups. I would be glad to forward you the 97 word document complete with pictures Mike took when doing the process to an R1 Beeman. He illustrates specific things he did to other models as well.
I've shot Mikes guns and it is a very nice discharge characheristic. Dead calm without tuning and majic with a good tune.
I'm not convinced it will eliminate the need for a soft hold to achieve the ultimate spring gun accuracy but Mike is Convinced he can now rest any springer and shoot good groups. I'd say he is onto something. It'll cost you only $5 to find out. Chump change.
TimmyMac1
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Awesome Tim, you are always looking at and for innovation. Thank You
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Will give this a try with my R1 and report back soon.
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so are we talking about using adhesive backed weather stripping similar to this ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weatherstrip-Foam-/390164532024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad79e4b38 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weatherstrip-Foam-/390164532024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad79e4b38)
If so, it should be available at any home improvement store.
I may have to try this on both my RS2 and my D48
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Sounds like a legit idea however, wouldn't tightening the screws down as stated compress the neoprene so much that it would no longer offer the desired cushioning effect?
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even with the screws tight, it would still provide a dampening effect, much softer than contact with bare wood.
Josh
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Just ordered my sheet. I thought the same thing - why not weather strip sized like 1/2" or 1" but maybe that width is crucial so I wont change a thing. Tim ,your the man!!! Thanks
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I'm really on board with this idea as I just minted a bi pod on my NPXL 1100. I've been lookin at the gun and I just cannot see how the neoprene will fit in there as there is no space at all. And honestly I'm afraid once I start torquing the screws down my stock is gonna split because of the pressure. Am I overly paranoid ?
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MIKE HANCOCK HERE:
When I say tighten screws I mean to normal "tight" not major "torque" down tight. You will find that after the first "normal tighten," the next day the neoprene will have crushed down and you can get another 3/4th turn to get back to normal tight again. The third and forth "tightens" you can get about 1/2 and then maybe 1/4 turn to "normal" tightness. You WANT the spring tube to be able to vibrate on top of the neoprene a small amount or you might as well not do this and go back to being bedded directly on the wood. Firm tight might be a better way to describe it. I don't have a dog in this fight. I make no money, I don't want to do other people guns for free or for profit, I just told Tim about it and let him shoot my HW 90 that was done this way. He liked the way it felt.
I've also done some of my buddies guns and they report what I describe. It takes out the loud "THWACK" you feel in your cheek on the stock. I can shoot off sandbags (front and rear) and not even touch the fore-stock. I use my fore-stock hand to squeeze and manipulate the rear bag to get the cross hairs on target just like with my powder rifles. And I shoot one ragged hole groups all day long at 20-30 yards with the right pellets. (you can read my sign up profile to see how/why I even thought of trying this)
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Mike and Tim,
THANKS ! for sharing, This is just another fine example of why the members of the GTA are The BEST !
I just got back from my local Rubber and Packing supply with 12' in hand. Will be doing this to my RS2 Ram model, and my RWS D48.
(Austin, I've got plenty for yours too ;D).
now where did I put those Allen Wrenches ? ;)
I'm kind of curious as to if applying the Neoprene stripping just forward and aft of the front mounting bolts, (lets say 1" on both sides of each bolt), and then another 2 short strips at the rear trigger guard bolt might possibly do the same thing, and/or possibly work even better ?, as opposed to applying it to the entire length of the stock ?
My thinking being, this would create even less contact area between spring tube and wood.
HMmmmm,.... may just have to give it a try.
Your thoughts ?
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I'm in!!!
Will try it on my 98 first!
Thanks Timmy and Mike!! Sounds like a great idea!!
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Mike,
Have you taken one out of the stock yet that has been bedded? A good customer was asking that as soon as I told him about it. I had to say I have no clue if a release agent or talcum powder should be used to make sure you can get the two apart.
We do need to service these things so it is a good question. I sure like the way Mikes gun shot when I tried it. Thudlike.
TimmyMac1
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I did this to my WFH [springer] and my Benji 1100. All I can say is wow! What a difference. The WFH has a wood butt that I added. I hated the plastic one because it was loud , too long , and didnt feel right. After adding the neopreme it was so much quieter and more accurate . Thank you for this wonderful idea. And yes it was a pain to get the 1100 stock back on. I used a c-clamp , patients , and it went on .
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ATTENTION ALL HW 90 / Beeman RS 1 and 2 Owners.
There is a bit of extra work involve in bedding these guns because of their large trigger box cut-out (for their re-settable trigger safety mechanism). "IF" the large block trigger box is so tight it has to be almost forced down into the stock cut-out...
(1) you need to take a small jewelers file and relieve the cut-out front sides all around (just a little bit) so the box has some room to vibrate within the cut-out. Otherwise you are just back to bedding against solid wood (as before) in this area and you'll still get the harsh felt recoil.
(2) You need to cut out two 3/4" wide rectangles of neoprene the exact length of the trigger box cut out and place one each side of the box (instead of just using a 3/8th wide piece like you do for other guns). I made three attempts at bedding my HW 90 before I discovered this one worked.
WOW! And this is the gun Tim shot that prompted him to ask me for my soft bed recipe. I believe the extra wide piece of neoprene is needed here because the trigger cut-out is so wide you don't really have a bottom edge to offer support with just a normal 3/8th wide piece. You need the extra softness up the sides of the spring tube to provide enough softness. I think I included a pic in my document I supplied to Tim.
Again - good luck.
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TAKING OUT OF THE STOCK AND THEN REPLACING -- AFTER SOFT BEDDING.
YES YOU CAN. NOTHING SPECIAL NEEDED AND THE NEOPRENE usually DOES NOT STICK TO THE METAL. You can take out, work on the gun, then replace over the same bedding. You my need to do the screw re-tighten a time or two as the neoprene will rebound up a bit. And you may need to shoot a few to get the gun settled back into it's sweet spot. But not nearly as much as for the original bed.
Tim, if you recall, you changed out the pivot pin on my HW 90 the day I brought it down to show you those British screw-in pivot pins I brought. You knocked out the preened pin for me. That's the day you first looked into my 90 stock and saw all the squashed neoprene bedding for the first time. AT WORST, if a piece of bedding does stick to the metal, you can just replace the missing section and do the above re-tighten / shoot a few to re-settle and you'll be good to go again.
A NOTE: TO REMOVE the bedding: The neoprene comes off very easily, but sometimes leaves the paper thin piece of sticky back on the wood. Just use a wood Popsicle stick to scrape it out. It's much softer than any metal and doesn't damage your bedding.
A THOUGHT: I know neoprene deteriorates over time. Not sure how long it will last before that happens and you'll need a re-do. Mine have gone a year and a half now, no problems. It's probably a good idea to take your guns out of the stock every couple years to check for unseen problems, rust, etc. and re-lube the pivot pins anyway.
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TO:
tri-5-ron
RE: Installing Bedding in front of and to the rear of the trigger guard screws rather than just down the sides.
My thinking being, this would create even less contact area between spring tube and wood.
HMmmmm,.... may just have to give it a try.
Your thoughts ?
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MIKE HANCOCK HERE:
AND ALSO TX 200 Bedding
I "think" I tried it at the very start of this project and I couldn't get the accuracy I did with just going along the sides.
BUT, you have to do it for the TX 200. There's only about 3-4 inches of bedding surface in one of those. The whole spring tube is floated the rest of the way out front. FOR MY TX 200 I got the best results with 1/8th-inch --- "thick" -- neoprene placed in the normal fashion for the 4-inchs of bedding surface that's available ...then I used --"1/16th"-- thick neoprene directly in the bottom of that 4-inch space, in between the two outside 1/8th strips. So YOU MAY BE RIGHT in your assumption. I have NOT tried the 1/16" trick in the bottom where the stock screws go in other guns. It may be "the ticket!' I do believe 1/8th is too much though.
This project owes it's conception to my boyhood hero, a gun writer named Jack O'Connor from Outdoor Life. He wrote that if you put thin strips of business card under the fore of a powder rifle that's not shooting well, it might provide a bit of up-force on the BBL to settle it down. And it's worked for me for years. Then Sims Vibration Labs comes along with a whole line of products that mitigate vibration for archery gear and rifles. Key word here is "vibration!"
It just thought it was worth a try to see if it would work with pellet guns. And it has for me. I haven't had the time to try:
(1) All the materials that my work even better than Neoprene
(2) All the methods, manner and placement for these materials
That's where you guys come in. Please do your own experimenting.
My sincere hope and wish is that somebody out there (ONE OF YOU GUYS)...keeps experimenting and finds the ultimate fix.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the reply Mike,
Yes, I will do some experimenting to see what works best.
Just wanted to toss the idea out there to see what you thought.
I'm sure it can/will vary with each guns total contact area. It will be fun and interesting to see the effects of various bedding placement.
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Only wood stocks are mentioned. Would/should this neoprene bedding be needed with a synthetic stock such as the one on my Gamo Bone Collector?
Dan
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Only wood stocks are mentioned. Would/should this neoprene bedding be needed with a synthetic stock such as the one on my Gamo Bone Collector?
Dan
I guess you could be the crash test smarty! This is GTA style CLOUD development. You get to be part of the program if you have the will. We could get every body leaning in the right direction and we might make things happen collectively. American engines have made more than a few problems go away when everyone starts thinking as a group.
Tim
TimmyMac1
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what about using sorbothane instead of neoprene? last I heard it was one of the best vibration dampeners...
I think Ill have to try that, but first, a question: what thickness do you think the neoprene is eventually compressed to?
I don't think sorbothane would compress as much as neoprene...
Last question:how would you recommend attaching the dampening material to the metal? (unfortunately sorbo doesn't come with adhesive)
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Awesome suggestion. This alone is worth a try; "It takes out the loud "THWACK" you feel in your cheek on the stock."
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what about using sorbothane instead of neoprene? last I heard it was one of the best vibration dampeners...
I think Ill have to try that, but first, a question: what thickness do you think the neoprene is eventually compressed to?
I don't think sorbothane would compress as much as neoprene...
Last question:how would you recommend attaching the dampening material to the metal? (unfortunately sorbo doesn't come with adhesive)
*********************************************************************************
Mike Hancock here:
RE: What thickness dose the "1/8th inch" neoprene compress to? I'd say the thickness of a normal cardboard business card. Some of the newer harder plastic laminated cards are a bit thinner.
RE: Sorbothane -- It may be "THE" ticket! TRY IT!!! I tried cutting strips off of a Sims Vibration Lab slip on recoil pad. They were about 3/8th inch thick and hardly crushed at all. NO GOOD. TOO THICK! TOO MUCH schooching around when shot.
RE: How to get sorbethane to stick to wood stock so it stays in place. I'd say cut your strips and fit them so your all ready to install, then spray the underside that goes against the wood very lightly with 3M spray glue. You just need the soft bed to stay in place while you re-install the metal back into the stock. The crush effect of tightening the stock screws holds it on place after that.
GOOD LUCK. Let us know how sorbethane works for you.
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ok this is gonna sound strange, but i used pieces of cut up yoga mats with duct tape and it worked really well. The only problem was that, due to lack of adhesive backing, there are now little strips of pink protruding out the sides of my gun -_-
when I looked at the place where the stock makes contact, I found that it had tiny grooves, and I think they are to minimize contact in synthetic stock guns.
so you think that sorbo would compress less so I should get it less than 1/8 inch? If I can I'll try multiple thicknesses. Also can spray glue be found at the hardware store?
I'll let you guys know when the 1/10 inch sorbo gets here from ebay lol
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Ok here's another slightly strange idea, why not put some of your chosen dampening material on top of the piston? That way, when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder, some of the impact force would be absorbed lessening the forwards recoil. Because the pellet is propelled by the air in front of the piston, the gun would only lose as much power as air would fill the gap made by the rubber.
I'm borrowing this idea from the world of airsoft, because airsoft guns operate on the same principles as airguns. In airsoft, this makes the gun much quieter and makes it last longer, BUT it can mess with the length of the piston also, which can be bad, because in airsoft, gears are used to cock the piston. In air rifles it is cocked by hand, so it should be fine.It looks like Crosman is using this idea in their np2. I can't really test this theory, though, because I've never taken apart my AG that completely, and I don't have a spring compressor :(
that'll be another project :)
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RE: Only wood stocks are mentioned. Would/should this neoprene bedding be needed with a synthetic stock.
"IF" your synthetic stock is loud and "clacky" in the ear that's against the stock lightninrod, soft bed it. It will take that out and will not hurt accuracy. The problem with synthetic stocks is they are so hollowed out there's not a lot of bedding surface inside to place the neoprene. Good Luck!
Mike Hancock
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I bedded my WFH and it is much , much improved
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Sorbo came from ebay :D
will report on results as soon as I get a chance to try it
this is with 1/10 inch sorbo and on a crosman tr77
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+1 on Jack O, sold my Dad on the 270 win as white tail lightning. I can't wait to bed my hatsan, 125 sniper. I hate not hold sensitivity. I'll be interested to see how this will coenside with my rubber spray tune. Thinking together, along with the rubber barrel donut you spoke of I, hope to have the quietest, most accurate 30fpe gas ram gun the world has ever none. Whoo hahaha...
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i've wondered if dynamat would be better for this ?
http://www.dynamat.com/ (http://www.dynamat.com/)
it's made to reduce noise by absorbing vibrations .........
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Great thread guys. Years ago I tried using Moon Gel for bedding an old Chinese air rifle.. I was thinking that the neopreme would be to thick but it looks like it works. Great job and I hope you all perfect this to help those who have difficulty with holding and shooting a springer off a bench rest.
In my test with Moon Gel, it seemed to really dampen the vibration which was what I was looking for. I personally never had and issue with shooting springers off bags, bench rest or off hand at that timie. So I was mostly impressed with the effect the Moon Gel had on dampening vibration.
Anyways keep up the great work guys. Great read.
Gene
(http://www.long-mcquade.com/files/40/lg_MUFFLER+MOOGEL.jpg)
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I've done both my RS2 Ram in .22cal, and my D48 in .22 cal. and am happy with the results.
I've also done 2 MM fully tuned Airhawks and am very pleased with those.
I just finished doing my buddies Beeman Mach 12.5 RS3.
It being a springer with 60 lbs of cocking force, I'm curious if the neoprene might not have enough density for the significant recoil.
Now with me having "build-a-better-mousetrap OCD disorder",... this got me to thinking...
I'm thinking that the same or even better results might be achieved using Casting Rubber.
My thought is,.... to lay in the Casting Rubber in the stock and then use a thin washer between the stock and the action temporarily, and then install the 3 bolt/screws to lightly secure the action to the stock as usual.
Using the washers to establish a controlled "Gap" between the action and the stock, and allowing the casting rubber to cure.
Then once cured, (15 minutes or so), remove the action,.... remove the washers,.... and reassemble the action to the stock.
The casting rubber would then have a 100% perfect fit, .. it would then be slightly compressed, (due to the washers are now removed), and the rubber would have a greater density, and less chance of deteriorating, or completely compressing, like the neoprene may tend to do.
What are your thoughts on this idea ?
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Was the gun I shot at the Youth FT day the ram .22? That gun was as good as any Chinese gun I've ever shot. It was so good it made me laugh. You sir have a way with China trigs. CDT no doubt but tuned to a really nice level. Did that have the bedding done when I shot it?
I think you should try the casting rubber. Let us know how it works.
TimmyMac1
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Was the gun I shot at the Youth FT day the ram .22? That gun was as good as any Chinese gun I've ever shot. It was so good it made me laugh. You sir have a way with China trigs. CDT no doubt but tuned to a really nice level. Did that have the bedding done when I shot it?
I think you should try the casting rubber. Let us know how it works.
TimmyMac1
Yes !,... the rifle you and Han's used at the 4H Youth FT Shoot, was soft bedded per yours and Mr. Hancock's suggestions using the 1/8th thick Neoprene.
And Yes,...The trigger was done by me, based on some internet searches, and adjusted per your recommendations, advise, and experienced wisdom.
It was my first real attempt to fine tune a trigger, so I will take your compliments with great pride and humble appreciation.
Now for any others reading here,... this is where I get my 2.3 seconds of fame, gloating, and glory,... in saying that I actually out-shot Tim at the kids 4H FT Shoot and I took top honors. (do you have any clue how cool I felt, putting a spanking on a former FT champion ? ? ?),...
OK,... maybe it was a stretch to say "spanking", and my 2.3 seconds of fame are over now,.. (and with all due respect), I must confess a couple of pertinent points in the matter...
1- Tim was shooting my Chinese springer, that was soft bedded, and "trigger tuned" by me,... (a complete novice with no real experience),... wearing the cheap factory Beeman glass,.... and oh yeah,... he was shooting Off Hand.
2- I was shooting my completely customized, tricked out Mrod,.... (tuned and re-tuned by TIM !),... using a Bipod, Thumbhole Blaster Stock, and a 50mm SWF Mil-dot scope, (which was ALSO adjusted by Tim),... and I was mainly shooting Hunter Class, from a sitting position.
SOoooo,... I dunno,... but maybe I had a tiny bit of an advantage,.... and just MAYBE,..... it was not a really fair thing to suggest I "out-shot him that day",... (but what the heck,... I'll take what I can get). LOL!
so there ya go,... that's my 2.3 seconds (of VERY thin) fame and glory ! WOO-HOooooo ! ! ! hahaha!
Tim and the entire CASA FT membership,(Big Thanks to Larry, Rick, Art, and ALL the rest of CASA Guys), who have been our GREATEST supporters, of my 4H clubs Youth Air Rifle Safety and Shooting Project.
I can't express how appreciative we are, and how it would have never come together without their support. I am looking forward to another fun season this coming year.
now back to the original subject,...
I have come to own a couple of boxes of ** Repro-Rubber** brand, Metrologic grade, Form Casting, Rubber Compound.
I did a test run of the stuff tonight, and I need to figure out how to fine tune my mixing/application methods before I can actually try it on a rifle.
(M A N ! ! ! this stuff sets up fast,...too FAST) !
I'll try to get down to the shop soon, and show Tim what the stuff is, and together maybe we can figure out how to get it mixed, rolled, applied to the stock, action re-installed and snugged down,... in under the 1 1/2 minutes working time :o ! ! !
besides, I need to get down there and drop off a little more cash with him,...
cuz there ARE some more AG parts and goodies to buy ya KNOW !
(Tim, get me a flat top piston ready for my 1377/2289 conversion) ;D ;D ;D
Good shootin' to all, and we'll let you know what progress we may make with the casting rubber compound stuff.
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I am really enjoying what you guys are discussing here. I dug up some old posts that I made years ago and remembered the Chinese model that I was using for the soft bedding. It was the TF-89 .22. If I am not mistaken Beeman and others were using this Chinese rifle as a base for newer models. One thing that I remember well was the trigger. You could absolutely tune that trigger to perfection if so inclined. But I used the Moon Gel on this model because it would rattle your teeth when shooting it the recoil and vibration was so harsh..:) I later detuned it to around 12 fpe using the Moon Gel as the bedding. I wish I had thought of the stuff you guys are using now back then. I really liked shooting it off the bench because it has such consistent accuracy.
Anyways carry on guys, this thread is amazing.
Gene
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I have some of the neoprene and I'm going to do up my xs25 over the weekend or so as I change it over from synthetic to wood. I haven't decided if I'll fool with the stock yet or not... It would be an easy way to get some practice in.
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How to Soft Bed Spring Piston / Gas Ram Pellet guns. (by Mike Hancock)
Purpose: Floats spring tube metal on a thin, mushy layer of Neoprene up off of the stock wood.
Result: Reduces felt vibration, allows BENCH RESTING on firm sandbags which aids accuracy!
Get 1/8th-inch thick Neoprene from E-Bay- $4.95 includes shipping. Adhesive backed material.
It's the principal of floating metal off the wood. Use a box cutter and straight edge to cut 3/8th wide strips.
Peel paper off sticky back of neoprene strips. Single edge safety razor really helps get paper started off sticky back.
Place strips in bedding channel about 1/16 up from drop-off edge. It will mush down and fill the gap.
Put Two full length strips in channel (one on each side) leaving a gap back at the trigger from half way between trigger pins to the back of inletting. Small pieces fill back end of inletting leaving gap for cross pin and cut out to allow room for trigger group.
Full SOFT BEDDING COMPLETE Now you need to install the action into the wood.
Use "C" clamp to get front stock screws down far enough to start since they are now sitting on 1/8" of neoprene. Make sure you don't strip the screws. This is especially tricky when you have cups fitted. Start front stock screw holes first. Then do trigger guard screws.
INSTRUCTIONS AFTER BEDDING
1. Tighten all screws tight
2. Let sit overnight
3. Day 2 -- Morning -- Tighten Again
4. Day 2 -- afternoon -- Tighten Again -- shoot 20
5. Day three -- Tighten again -- DONE!
6. Periodically test screw tightness.
YOU HAVE A SOFT BEDDED PELLET GUN THAT WILL SHOOT SOFTER, QUIETER, AND MORE ACCURATELY.
YOU CAN HARD BENCH-REST YOUR SPRING PISTON AND GAS RAM GUNS NOW!
Principal Works for any GUN.
All guns have different stock inletting and cut-outs. Just put Neoprene on all wood surfaces where spring tube metal contacts the stock wood.
YOU WANT TO FLOAT THE METAL ON VERY THIN LAYER OF NEOPRENE SO IT'S NOT TOUCHING WOOD ANY LONGER.
Mike has done this to the following models with equal success on all. TX 200 / HW 97K / HW 77 / R-9 / R-7 / HW 50
Webley / Benjamin NP's / etc. He supplied Mac1 with this information so we could share it with everyone.
If you would like a 7250KB Word file with Pictures I can send you what Mike sent me. Just send an email to mac1airgun@gmail.com and Put "Soft Bed" in the subject. Large file no dial ups. I would be glad to forward you the 97 word document complete with pictures Mike took when doing the process to an R1 Beeman. He illustrates specific things he did to other models as well.
I've shot Mikes guns and it is a very nice discharge characheristic. Dead calm without tuning and majic with a good tune.
I'm not convinced it will eliminate the need for a soft hold to achieve the ultimate spring gun accuracy but Mike is Convinced he can now rest any springer and shoot good groups. I'd say he is onto something. It'll cost you only $5 to find out. Chump change.
TimmyMac1
I've been reading the recent threads on this subject and I notice you say neoprene rubber, but most respondents refer to neoprene "foam" rubber. Where your original experiments done with rubber or foam rubber. I can visualize differences of performance in both. For example, rubber sheet might not have the same damping characteristic as foam sheet, but foam sheet might have very little if compressed very firmly as is require to keep stock screws from loosening on my NP.
Obviously foam rubber may trap moisture in damp or humid environments, but the firmer black rubber may degrade and create a gooey mess to be cleaned up at some later date.
Inquiring minds want to know.
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I used foam rubber. Maybe that is why even after testing out to 30 yards I did not see any better groups.
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This was NOT Foam. It was solid with adhesive backing. You can get 10 feet of the strips 1/2" wide for $20 or 3/4" wide for $30. Mike did this so long ago there is no $4.95 guy anymore. If you google Neopreme Strips you will find all kinds of products. Sticky back 1/8" thick can be used as sheet or strips as you'll need to be able to cut and trim it. I think 3/4" wide would be best. It costs about $1 per inch when you buy 10 feet.
http://rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rubber-strips-commercial-grade.htm (http://rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rubber-strips-commercial-grade.htm)
TimmyMac1
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;D You can buy the 2" wide at any decent HVAC supplier for about $15 and it is a 20 ft roll
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What hardness/density neoprene rubber should be used? I see several different Durometer or Shore ratings. Thanks.
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What hardness/density neoprene rubber should be used? I see several different Durometer or Shore ratings. Thanks.
It is a question for Mike but I would guess as soft as possible.
TimmyMac1
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Would this work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weather-stripping-/320495781084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9f0984dc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weather-stripping-/320495781084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9f0984dc)
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I just gave this a whirl on my recently acquired B-21 and I am thrilled with the results! It is really amazing how something so simple can make such a dramatic change! Very pleased and a big thanks for posting this!! Next are my Diana's.
Take er easy....Dan
EDIT...I am no longer thrilled...I'm bloody ecstatic ;D. I am shooting indoors rested at just under 40ft. The fore stock is rested and the butt is on a sock filled with corn cob media that is squeezed or released for elevation..real high tech eh! Anyhow, before the bedding if I pulled the gun tight into my shoulder but light with my cheek it would group well. Same thing again, before the bedding, same POA but this time very loose on the gun, pretty much the only thing touching was my trigger finger and it groups well at a totally different POI, which I can understand. If the hold was consistant so was the poi, but any change in the hold would show as a change in poi.
After the bedding it does not matter..gorilla hold, light hold or anything in between the POI is the same and I am talking 5 shots 1 ragged hole! I have been very happy with the accuracy of this rifle, but since this cheap quick mod this is a level up. Its just amazing how a bit of dampening material can change things so much.
this is what I used from Home depot....little narrow but just cut into strips
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/closed-cell-sponge-rubber-tape/947895 (http://www.homedepot.ca/product/closed-cell-sponge-rubber-tape/947895)
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Good ole Jack Conners. Very much respected and excellent gun man.
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BUmp for a great thread.IM going to try this on my xs46U which is not hold very sensitive and the xs12 which is pretty hold sensitive.I wonder if this bedding mod would help out a PCP like the Mrod?
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I just did the soft bedding to a nitro piston pistol and a nitro piston synthetic rifle. Pistol shoots great haven't shot rifle yet but am sure it will be improved. On the rifle stock I put strips on the bedding ridges only. Iron Hand
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Would this work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weather-stripping-/320495781084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9f0984dc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-x-1-8-50-Closed-Cell-Neoprene-Weather-stripping-/320495781084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9f0984dc)
Yes. I think OPen cell would not be as good as closed cell.
Tim
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Ordered my Sorbothane earlier today and can't wait to do this to all 3 rifles.
Spectacular thread.
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I have a question. My Diana 34 is extremely accurate at 25 yards, but, like most springers, it is very hold sensitive. I know that this soft bedding is supposed to help eliminate the hold sensitivity. My biggest problem is with the point of impact changing. I've learned to be very consistent with the hold, hence the ragged one-hole groups I get. The problem is that the groups just keep changing poi, as much as 1/2" to 1", and this is really puzzling to me. My question: do any of you think the soft bedding will take care of this "wandering" poi issue? Thanks for any thoughts!
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I have a question. My Diana 34 is extremely accurate at 25 yards, but, like most springers, it is very hold sensitive. I know that this soft bedding is supposed to help eliminate the hold sensitivity. My biggest problem is with the point of impact changing. I've learned to be very consistent with the hold, hence the ragged one-hole groups I get. The problem is that the groups just keep changing poi, as much as 1/2" to 1", and this is really puzzling to me. My question: do any of you think the soft bedding will take care of this "wandering" poi issue? Thanks for any thoughts!
This is a fluid Thread with 100% positive FEEDBACK! Nobody making a dime here but the Sticky back rubber guys. The guy that originated this concept says it makes guns Bench restable and they don't vary POI with offhand vs supported. PLEASE DO IT and if you are the first to find it doesn't help a thing we will all know it didn't work for ONE guy! Just everyone else! Try it! Spring guns are a Pain to shoot accurately and Anything that helps accuracy, that isn't dead weight, is good.
Mac1 AG Sticky Back Foam
13974 Van Ness Ave
Gardena Ca 90249-2900
Send SASE $1.20 Postage for a Bunch for free!
TimmyMac1
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Thanks Timmy! I'll give it a try! 8) Standard size envelope with $1.20 in postage affixed? Thanks!
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Thanks Timmy! I'll give it a try! 8) Standard size envelope with $1.20 in postage affixed? Thanks!
Larger the better. This is the rate for two ounces, in a large envelope and less than 3/4" thick.
TimmyMac1
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As always, I appreciate you and your service. Thanks Timmy!
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Pictures of Soft Bedding a Beeman R-1:
1- Cut your 3/8 to 1/4 inch wide Strips
2- Peel back the sticky back
3- Place along inlet line of stock leaving 1/16 inch gap up from edge. (if you put right on the edge, as material mushes, it extends out over the edge and flakes off.
4. Same as above
5- Fore Stock bedding in place
6- Leave a little gap for the cross-pin that holds trigger in place. The material on each side will hold up the cross-pin just enough that the cross-pin will no longer gouge little dents in the stock. Both sides of the cross-pin will now be floating.
7- Same as above
8- Mark from underneath, then cut out the curve of trigger opening for back piece of bedding
9- Showing back end bedding. Can use smaller pieces and put in like a puzzle to make it easier
10- Using "C" clamp to get front stock screws started (material sets metal 1/8-inch higher in stock so holes don't line up). NOTE: I do this alone. But when doing a friends gun he was able to hand grip it tight enough to get screws started without clamps.
11- Same as above
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Wow. The soft bedding really made a difference in my D34! 8) The rifle has always been a tack driver, but the poi constantly changed, by as much as an inch, sometimes more. I have always used the artillery hold, but this rifle was extremely hold sensitive, so I would basically need to use reference marks to position the rifle to get a consistent poi, and even that sometimes didn't work. :o So, after reading this thread, and urged on by Timmy Mac, I gave the soft bedding a try, and VOILA!!! ;D The rifle is no longer hold sensitive, and will group, even changing where and how it is supported! The bedding has also made the rifle much quieter, due no doubt to the insulating property of the foam. I am thrilled with the results! Thank you, Mike, for your discovery, and thank you Timmy for making this info and material available to us. ;D ;D ;D
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Pictures of Soft Bedding a Beeman R-1:
1- Cut your 3/8 to 1/4 inch wide Strips
2- Peel back the sticky back
3- Place along inlet line of stock leaving 1/16 inch gap up from edge. (if you put right on the edge, as material mushes, it extends out over the edge and flakes off.
4. Same as above
5- Fore Stock bedding in place
6- Leave a little gap for the cross-pin that holds trigger in place. The material on each side will hold up the cross-pin just enough that the cross-pin will no longer gouge little dents in the stock. Both sides of the cross-pin will now be floating.
7- Same as above
8- Mark from underneath, then cut out the curve of trigger opening for back piece of bedding
9- Showing back end bedding. Can use smaller pieces and put in like a puzzle to make it easier
10- Using "C" clamp to get front stock screws started (material sets metal 1/8-inch higher in stock so holes don't line up). NOTE: I do this alone. But when doing a friends gun he was able to hand grip it tight enough to get screws started without clamps.
11- Same as above
8) :D Very nice pictorial and instructions on the soft bedding process .. Well done!!!! ;D
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Wow. The soft bedding really made a difference in my D34! 8) The rifle has always been a tack driver, but the poi constantly changed, by as much as an inch, sometimes more. I have always used the artillery hold, but this rifle was extremely hold sensitive, so I would basically need to use reference marks to position the rifle to get a consistent poi, and even that sometimes didn't work. :o So, after reading this thread, and urged on by Timmy Mac, I gave the soft bedding a try, and VOILA!!! ;D The rifle is no longer hold sensitive, and will group, even changing where and how it is supported! The bedding has also made the rifle much quieter, due no doubt to the insulating property of the foam. I am thrilled with the results! Thank you, Mike, for your discovery, and thank you Timmy for making this info and material available to us. ;D ;D ;D
Mike has a Great Idea and I just want the max number of people to benefit from the information. It works to make Springers far More shootable. To an accuracy nut like me that is HUGE! I shot Springers for a dozen years and would have loved to have had this going on. I did everything else under the sun (but that) and it makes me a little ticked I didn't think of it. I did the first ultra Carbine, Brownells & Mercury Rams, low CG, Venom Trophy Wood etc but I never put elastomers in a sandwich. I have done it (a lot) since. TimmyMac1
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Question for TimmyMac1
Do you still have the 1/8 neoprene available? If not, can you point me in a direction to buy some?
Thank you, Don
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Question for TimmyMac1
Do you still have the 1/8 neoprene available? If not, can you point me in a direction to buy some?
Thank you, Don
You can pick it up on line armaflex insulating tape it is neoprene tape ~2" wide and 20 ft on the roll or try Lowes & Home Depot
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Glad you guys brought this thread back around. I recently picked up a Silent Cat at the local pawn shop. I REALLY HATE PLASTIC !!!! And that echo in my ear is the main reason. I've already cut a few coils off the spring. I didn't need a gun that shoots MACH I+ (as they say this will..... yeah right).... anyhow, I am impressed at the accuracy so far so I think it may be worth a little more tinkering before I get bored and sell it. I'm going to see if Lowes has any of this stuff in stock and give it a shot on the SC. Why wouldn't I?
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Thanks guys. Home Depot has it on the shelf 2"x 30' roll for $10.97 item SKU# 329131. It can also be ordered on line from them. Lowes does not carry in store or on line. One roll should cover most folks needs for a lifetime. I know it will mine since I have already done most of my springers
Don Ross
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Closest Home Depot to me is 50 + miles away and they had no option for shipping this item. I was able to find it ( or close to it) at an online supply house. Here is the link;
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Parker-Hannifin-475290-K502-Alternative-Foam-Insulation-Tape-1-8-x-2-x-30 (http://www.supplyhouse.com/Parker-Hannifin-475290-K502-Alternative-Foam-Insulation-Tape-1-8-x-2-x-30)
I took a shot and ordered a roll... total was $12.20 delivered.
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Closest Home Depot to me is 50 + miles away and they had no option for shipping this item. I was able to find it ( or close to it) at an online supply house. Here is the link;
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Parker-Hannifin-475290-K502-Alternative-Foam-Insulation-Tape-1-8-x-2-x-30 (http://www.supplyhouse.com/Parker-Hannifin-475290-K502-Alternative-Foam-Insulation-Tape-1-8-x-2-x-30)
I took a shot and ordered a roll... total was $12.20 delivered.
As long as that is a closed cell neoprene foam tape it shouls work fine if it is open cell foam it will compress and lose its resiliance
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True... it says it adheres to itself so I'm hoping it is.
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True... it says it adheres to itself so I'm hoping it is.
Let me know if it isn't, I will pick up a roll for you at one of the refrigeration supply places that I deal with and ship it to you
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Thanks... I got tracking.. I'll know Tuesday.
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I tried open and closed cell foam. You need 1/8 th neoprene rubber. Take my word for it.
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Yes the closed cell foam is much more durable and effective
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Interesting subject. Has anyone tried this on a HW 97? I found this on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails) . The ad states it's closed cell neoprene foam. It is already sized at 3/8" so I just need to cut to length. Price was not to bad so I purchased a roll and will be the Guinea Pig. If it doesn't work I have other uses for it.
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Interesting subject. Has anyone tried this on a HW 97? I found this on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails) . The ad states it's closed cell neoprene foam. It is already sized at 3/8" so I just need to cut to length. Price was not to bad so I purchased a roll and will be the Guinea Pig. If it doesn't work I have other uses for it.
Dang !! one month for delivery. I bookmarked it anyways just in case the one I bought ain't what it is supposed to be.
Thanks
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Interesting subject. Has anyone tried this on a HW 97? I found this on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails) . The ad states it's closed cell neoprene foam. It is already sized at 3/8" so I just need to cut to length. Price was not to bad so I purchased a roll and will be the Guinea Pig. If it doesn't work I have other uses for it.
Dang !! one month for delivery. I bookmarked it anyways just in case the one I bought ain't what it is supposed to be.
Thanks
I received an email from the vendor this morning stating Amazon was way off in their delivery estimation. He said he would be shipping within 24 hours and I should have it in less than 10 days. Coming from the other side of the pond. 33' is more than I'll ever use, you are more than welcome to a few feet of it.
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Interesting subject. Has anyone tried this on a HW 97? I found this on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086KQSMK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00#descriptionAndDetails) . The ad states it's closed cell neoprene foam. It is already sized at 3/8" so I just need to cut to length. Price was not to bad so I purchased a roll and will be the Guinea Pig. If it doesn't work I have other uses for it.
Dang !! one month for delivery. I bookmarked it anyways just in case the one I bought ain't what it is supposed to be.
Thanks
I received an email from the vendor this morning stating Amazon was way off in their delivery estimation. He said he would be shipping within 24 hours and I should have it in less than 10 days. Coming from the other side of the pond. 33' is more than I'll ever use, you are more than welcome to a few feet of it.
Whew!!! good news for you.. I've ordered things from China and delivery has taken a little more time but, I month? I was like WHOA!!
Thanks for the offer. I think if the roll I ordered is not the right stuff I'll just order a roll of the same as you got. I'm sure it's not gonna be my only project.
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Can't speak for all synthetic stock guns but, I just had the stock off of my chopped Silent Cat and soft bedding is going to be all but impossible. The action doesn't sit on solid surface. It sit on molded ribs a tad over 1/8" wide spaced about an 1 1/4 apart down the full length of the gun. Best I could do is a small piece near the front screws on either side and a piece or 2 around the trigger hole and at the rear of the action. In my opinion, that will leave the rest of the action either barely touching or not at all touching the rest of the ribs. It just seems to me that will make the gun even more hollow sounding or buzzing. it's all good, my modest little tune really smoothed things out and I get just a solid thunk at the end of the shot. I can and will live with that.
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Mike Hancock here:
Yes, it works with the HK 97's I've done my 4 with very good results. Did a buddy's with same result.
Yes. You need 1/8-inch thick "neoprene rubber." Foam in most of its forms is too mushy. Timmy Mac has a bunch of the correct stuff at his shop (Mac1 Airguns) and will mail you some for a couple of bucks and the price of a self-addressed return envelope. See page three of blog.
Yes. It's tough to do Synthetic stocked airguns because their stocks are so hollowed out. Also, the TX 200 stocks are difficult to do because the bedding area in them is only about 4-iches long in the bottom and then it's hollowed out the rest of the way forward too. But it does help the TX 200's some and definitely takes out the "thwack" you hear from the stock against your cheek.
BTW...Tim reported to me that some of the springier benchrest guys are doing this now too.
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Thanks Mike for the info on the HW 97 and foam not working. Hopefully Timmy has some neoprene rubber left. I'll contact him.
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You can pick it up on line armaflex insulating tape it is neoprene tape ~2" wide and 20 ft on the roll or try Lowes & Home Depot
I just grabbed a roll if that and did the Titan tonight. That roll is enough to do about 900 Titans. :)
I can't wait to test it in a few days. I'll have some before and after targets to share.
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Thanks Mike for the info on the HW 97 and foam not working. Hopefully Timmy has some neoprene rubber left. I'll contact him.
Foams come in numerous densities so the high density/closed cell would be the best. The slow recovery type is the liner they often use in High end audio speaker cabinets to make them sound non-resonating. That is what I have. My Best friend does Surround sound systems/Home theater so he has bales of this stuff precut for various applications. He gave me enough to last till the next century. That is why I'm giving it away for a few dollars of postage. I'll never run out so don't ask me if I still have some. The answer will be don't ask, just do it.
Send a SASE (Large Envelope) with $2 on it to Mac1 AG /Sticky Bed 13974 Van Ness Ave. Gardena CA 90249-2900
I will send a few ounces of the sticky back insulation/soundproofing material (enough to do several large springers).
On HW and RWS rifles (including the numerous clones) with 5MMX.8 Metric stock fasteners I recommend the Mac1 Cup Kit (On Special now).
If you buy a Cup Kit just Mention Sticky Bed in your order notes and I will add a bunch of the soft bedding Material to your order for free.
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/mac1-forearm-cup-kit-p/mcupkit.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/mac1-forearm-cup-kit-p/mcupkit.htm)
Thanks for the Business and have a Happy Holiday.
TimmyMac1
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Hey All.
I have a Benji Trail NP with a synthetic stock. Do you think it'd be possible to attach the neoprene to the tube then place it in the stock? With all the cutouts there's not much flat surfaces to attach in the stock.
Was also thinking maybe add Neoprene in the cutouts to make it an even surface?
Anyone done a syn stock yet? Any advice?
Thx!
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Mike Hancock Here!
Your idea of doing the whole spring tube seams feasible for hollowed out stock synthetic guns. At least you'll be sure to hit all the possible bedding spots.
BTW---a note for you powder rifle shooters. I have a Ruger Synthetic stock 300 WSM. It shot OK (maybe 1-1/2 inch at 100 yards)
but...I tried the soft bedding at the very end of the stock where it pushes up against the BBL. Now all are shots touching-- maybe 3/8th inch 3 shot groups. I might have just got lucky here--- but just reporting what happened. Sorry..I know this is an air gun forum~!
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Actually I just got to day 3 after bedding the synthetic stock and it shoots great!! :)
I put the neoprene in just like you would the wood stock but had to go over the "ribs" (for lack of a better term) which is actually where the metal touches. Seems like a big improvement and wasn't hard to do at all! :)
BTW: I have a Benjamin Trail NP with a synthetic stock. :)
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
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Definitely got to try this on my Titan NP, then maybe I can actually shoot it and enjoy the shooting.
You guys got me so pumped up on this that I may get some thinner closed cell rubber and try it on my Kalibrgun Cricket .35/9mm due to it has a really loud ping and you can feel it through the wood stock, accuracy is already there at 1/2" groups at 75 yards so I bet this will help in both manners. Heck it may drop to 1/4" groups! I think it is a good idea for any gun that is noisy with a wood stock or synthetic one.
I think that the rubber sort of makes the barrel/receiver semi-floating on the stock, your hold pressure is already there and always the same no matter how you grip the stock. Reduces noise, less vibration and more than likely it will help make it less likely to break a scope as well!
I will have to try this on both my guns mentioned, it has to help in all aspects that's for sure!
William
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I just did my Striker, Vantage and Model 34.. What a difference it makes! The best change was in my Striker Edge, it absolutely tightened my groups up. Thanks for this post!
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
Marty2, any thoughts on why the velocity dropped?
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
Marty2, any thoughts on why the velocity dropped?
I think that the FPS of only 10 FPS probably has more to do with the Chronograph and not the bedding! Any and all Chronographs fluctuate in FPS reading due to, Lighting, Temp, Humidity and time of day. If you read up on this most will tell you that it is usually more like 20 to 30 FPS in most cases, so I think the FPS is fine on the HW97KT. All though it could be possible it is more likely the Chronograph and I would not be to worried about it unless it was over 50 FPS difference.
William
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
Marty2, any thoughts on why the velocity dropped?
I think that the FPS of only 10 FPS probably has more to do with the Chronograph and not the bedding! Any and all Chronographs fluctuate in FPS reading due to, Lighting, Temp, Humidity and time of day. If you read up on this most will tell you that it is usually more like 20 to 30 FPS in most cases, so I think the FPS is fine on the HW97KT. All though it could be possible it is more likely the Chronograph and I would not be to worried about it unless it was over 50 FPS difference.
William
Tried to figure it out this AM. Did a little testing and came up with......... I had moved my indoor shooting bench to a different location in my basement. When I set up my chrony I placed it about 18" closer than I had it before. I moved the chrony back out to the distance it was previously and the numbers came back to where they were before. William nailed it. Thanks
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
Marty2, any thoughts on why the velocity dropped?
I think that the FPS of only 10 FPS probably has more to do with the Chronograph and not the bedding! Any and all Chronographs fluctuate in FPS reading due to, Lighting, Temp, Humidity and time of day. If you read up on this most will tell you that it is usually more like 20 to 30 FPS in most cases, so I think the FPS is fine on the HW97KT. All though it could be possible it is more likely the Chronograph and I would not be to worried about it unless it was over 50 FPS difference.
William
Tried to figure it out this AM. Did a little testing and came up with......... I had moved my indoor shooting bench to a different location in my basement. When I set up my chrony I placed it about 18" closer than I had it before. I moved the chrony back out to the distance it was previously and the numbers came back to where they were before. William nailed it. Thanks
Your welcome, glad to shed some light on it for you (pun intended)lol
I had that problem shooting outside and thought it was my gun and when I looked into it and tested it was just the lighting and time of day.
Good shooting and enjoy...
William
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
An update to my original post....... After spending some time outside the last two days with the HW 97 I can say that soft bedding did not improve the accuracy of the rifle. I still say it was worth the effort to soft bed as the rifle is much more pleasant to shoot now.
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An update to my original post....... After spending some time outside the last two days with the HW 97 I can say that soft bedding did not improve the accuracy of the rifle. I still say it was worth the effort to soft bed as the rifle is much more pleasant to shoot now.
Same here with my TS-45. But now I can clearly hear the spring vibration because all the other noise is mostly gone. I doubled the 1/16" material at the mounting lugs and under the barrel. I'll try it on another spring gun someday.
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
An update to my original post....... After spending some time outside the last two days with the HW 97 I can say that soft bedding did not improve the accuracy of the rifle. I still say it was worth the effort to soft bed as the rifle is much more pleasant to shoot now.
Marty,
Did you use 1 layer or 2 layers? I got the stuff from Tim and it is 1/16" thick and in the original post he said to get 1/8" thick.
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
An update to my original post....... After spending some time outside the last two days with the HW 97 I can say that soft bedding did not improve the accuracy of the rifle. I still say it was worth the effort to soft bed as the rifle is much more pleasant to shoot now.
Marty,
Did you use 1 layer or 2 layers? I got the stuff from Tim and it is 1/16" thick and in the original post he said to get 1/8" thick.
One layer. Did you use 2 with better results?
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I did my HW97KT with a synthetic stock with the stuff Timmy Mac sent me. Haven't shot over 10 M yet. The twang has really quieted down and the rifle seems a lot less hold sensitive. It still shoots the best with its balance point on the rest. The jury is still out on any improvement on accuracy until I can shoot some longer distances. The only downside is I lost about 10 fps on pellet speed. Overall I would say it is worth the effort.
An update to my original post....... After spending some time outside the last two days with the HW 97 I can say that soft bedding did not improve the accuracy of the rifle. I still say it was worth the effort to soft bed as the rifle is much more pleasant to shoot now.
Marty,
Did you use 1 layer or 2 layers? I got the stuff from Tim and it is 1/16" thick and in the original post he said to get 1/8" thick.
One layer. Did you use 2 with better results?
Just wondering, I put 2 layers on my Remmy but haven't shot it yet.
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ALL my guns have 1/8-inch thick. I tried 1/4th but it was so thick, it was difficult to get the action back into the stock by all by myself so I abandoned it. The action screws didn't reach far enough up to catch the metal. I think " IF "Timmy MAC's material is only 1/16 then I would use two layers.
I don't think 1/16th-inch is thick enough and it crushes down without leaving you enough material for decent cushioning effect. You are right back down on the wood when you tighten the screws.
As for accuracy of the HW 97's. I have four of them, all soft bedded. I found them all to be so accurate out of the box that they really didn't need to be soft bedded. After all, one ragged hole at 25-yards is one ragged hole! But on two the accuracy did improve accuracy a bit. The real improvement was with sound suppression and hold sensitivity. I could shoot solid-idly when rested front and rear on firm sandbags and could grip the gun firmly when shooting offhand. POI shift also was reduced.
GOOD LUCK.
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Worked well on my 350 magnum, with my hand on the rest and forend on my palm I get the same poi as when the forend is rested directly on the rest.
First pic is rested on my palm, second pic forend on rest. Has not hurt the accuracy either. 5 shots 20 yards.
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Worked well on my 350 magnum, with my hand on the rest and forend on my palm I get the same poi as when the forend is rested directly on the rest.
First pic is rested on my palm, second pic forend on rest. Has not hurt the accuracy either. 5 shots 20 yards.
THAT'S EXACTLY what I'm talking about! I bet the gun has less "thwack"--- in your cheek and in your ear too! Thanks for the pic's.
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;D Grabbed some Armaflex closed cell foam from the warehouse of my job and will try some on my D460 and TX200
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;D Grabbed some Armaflex closed cell foam from the warehouse of my job and will try some on my D460 and TX200
TX 200's tricky to soft bed. Very short contact area right in front of and around front stock screw. The whole front is hollowed out and free floated. Might be why they are so intrinsically accurate out of the box. Much less overall metal to wood contact than other guns. I found bedding in the very bottom of stock helped a bit on mine. In other words the same side strips, but also one right in between those in the bottom too. I have two TX's and this method worked a little bit better on both of them.
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I did a Titan GP with Armaflex from Home Depot.
I tested hold-sensitivity by shooting groups from 10m directly off a bag of rice, then with a cushion of folded fabric on the bag, then seated FT-style.
It was already a good shooter with an aftermarket trigger, nice shot cycle, and surprisingly good accuracy before soft-bedding, but there was no improvement after.
Bedded or not, the 10m hard rest groups were about 1 inch higher than the cushioned groups, and the FT-style groups were about in the middle.
Although there was no improvement for this particular gun, there certainly was no harm in trying.
Have fun!
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Dang !! one month for delivery. I bookmarked it anyways just in case the one I bought ain't what it is supposed to be.
Thanks
Mine arrived in 2 weeks delivered to Indiana.
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First, I bought some Armaflex Armacell from the local home improvement store (can't remember which one--Lowes or Home Depot). I installed it in my Diana 34 but didn't even bother to shoot it; the Armacell was so squishy and mushy. It also compressed overnight to about a paper width, it seemed, and had almost total memory retention when released from compression. I might as well have installed strips of duct tape, after it compressed down.
Maybe it would've worked anyway. I've noticed that with shooting sports being such a mental activity, nearly anything a shooter believes-in is likely to make them shoot better!
Well...I didn't believe in the Armacell so I ordered a MAC 1 cup kit with Tim's friend's audio speaker neoprene foam. This foam is only 1/16" thick, instead of 1/8", but I like it so much better than the Armacell. I only installed one thickness of the 1/16" foam, but I'll shoot the rifle and then install another layer, perhaps.
The brass cups and screws are really nice too. I understand why the kit is so popular. It is about the least expensive, simplest, and easiest to install improvement that can be made to a gun like this. The fit was a total "drop-in" and they look great too. But I've found all of Tim's parts to be of the utmost and they are always far superior to the OEM parts they replace. Tim would not bother to make them, if they didn't!
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Renewing an older thread here, I was wondering if those of you that did the soft bed thing, now after having used the guns for a half year or more, do you still think it was worthwhile doing it, or did the cushioning eventually become too flattened and the improvements disappear?
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Renewing an older thread here, I was wondering if those of you that did the soft bed thing, now after having used the guns for a half year or more, do you still think it was worthwhile doing it, or did the cushioning eventually become too flattened and the improvements disappear?
Bump
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Mine are still shooting just as good now as when I originally did them. Even flattened some, it still provides a cushion between the metal of the action and the wood of the stock.
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When I first heard about this I did ALL my springers and several of a buddies, as well.
2+ years later they still have the 'cushion', and I still believe them to be softer shooting and more accurate.
For the first six months I checked screws every time I picked the gun up. Now, not so often. They have never loosened because of the material compression.
I'm a total convert!
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Mike Hancock here,
ALL my guns are still shooting fine with the original 2 year old soft bedding in place. I keep them stored inside in a gun safe where it's around room temp. so there should be no problems with drying or cracking. My envelope of bulk neoprene sheeting I have on hand is still fine too. IMHO, a third benefit, aside from the two discussed benefits of sound thwack noise reduction in your cheek weld -- and overall vibration dampening throughout the whole gun stock during shooting, is you get a perfect bedding job. In other words you nullify any high and low spots where wood touches metal. It correlates to glass bedding a powder rifle. A perfect bedding job!
AND, contrary to what's been written on here, I think Timmy's material is a bit too thin and a bit too hard. He gave me some, and although it's WAY BETTER than nothing, it's not as nice as my stuff. I use pure, black, 1/4- inch thick med hard neoprene sheets bought on E-Bay. Harder than wet suit materiel by quite a bit, but not really hard. I bought a bunch of it when I first started this crazy idea / project.
The ONLY GUN I've had neutral results with was the AA TX 200. That gun has almost no stock contact forward of the front stock screw. It's all relieved so the whole front of the chamber area floats. No real place to put bedding! Maybe that's why they shoot so well right out of the box. Not enough metal to wood contact to be much problem. GOOD LUCK!
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I was wondering if anyone had tried this modification on a Hatsan torpedo 100X?
I'd be curious....
JLew
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I'm bringing this old thread back up to hopefully benefit others who love their springers.
I think this thread should be made a "Sticky" so that it will continue to help folks get the most out of their Springers and Gas Rams.
And just for the record,
I recently became the Proud Caretaker of a VERY fine, (practically Legendary) "Lady",
that many of you here will surely recognize. :-*
She has taken down, drilled, pulverized, smashed, and short circuited more backyard rats,
(and a few skweerrlls too),
than any other I can recall, in recent history. :o :P ;)
She was, (and still is), the absolute Pride and Joy, of one of our finest members, who entrusted me to care for her, keep her well, and keep her happy, while he returned to his native homeland (Sweden) to be closer to his children. I am Truly HONORED to have her staying with me, and I'll make sure she feels very pampered and loved :D
Does anyone here know and/or recognize her ?
(I'll give you a little hint),
;D ;D ;D Her name is "Gretchen" ;D ;D ;D
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Gretchen%20from%20Stefan_zpsmagasy3n.jpg)
I'm thinking that maybe Gretchen deserves it, and might like to give the Soft Bedding a try .
What do you think Mike ?
Do you think a Fully Tuned, Top of the line, absolute DREAM to Shoot, .20 cal HW97K could also benefit from the Soft Bedding job ?
(I almost can't imagine her shooting any better than she already does, but maybe ?)
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Mike Hancock here,
ALL my guns are still shooting fine with the original 2 year old soft bedding in place. I keep them stored inside in a gun safe where it's around room temp. so there should be no problems with drying or cracking. My envelope of bulk neoprene sheeting I have on hand is still fine too. IMHO, a third benefit, aside from the two discussed benefits of sound thwack noise reduction in your cheek weld -- and overall vibration dampening throughout the whole gun stock during shooting, is you get a perfect bedding job. In other words you nullify any high and low spots where wood touches metal. It correlates to glass bedding a powder rifle. A perfect bedding job!
AND, contrary to what's been written on here, I think Timmy's material is a bit too thin and a bit too hard. He gave me some, and although it's WAY BETTER than nothing, it's not as nice as my stuff. I use pure, black, 1/4- inch thick med hard neoprene sheets bought on E-Bay. Harder than wet suit materiel by quite a bit, but not really hard. I bought a bunch of it when I first started this crazy idea / project.
The ONLY GUN I've had neutral results with was the AA TX 200. That gun has almost no stock contact forward of the front stock screw. It's all relieved so the whole front of the chamber area floats. No real place to put bedding! Maybe that's why they shoot so well right out of the box. Not enough metal to wood contact to be much problem. GOOD LUCK!
Please post a link for where to buy the "Soft Bedding Material".
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IVe seen sorbothane used as the dampening material.
But the isntance I was aware of needed reliefs cut in the stock for the material to rest in. Tim and Mike;s version of this is wayyyyyyy easier for the average shooter to do
Thanks to both of them for the post!
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Mike Hancock, zmike, messaged me today and said that 1/8 inch thick was the best thickness to use.
I bought this to give it a try:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BS4CV1D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BS4CV1D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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;) ;D That should work for you, being in HVAC I used the 2" wide Armaflex closed cell insulating tape that we use on refrigeration "suction lines " to prevent condensation on the cool copper pipes
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Thank you for this thread, I’ll be trying this as soon as I can buy some material.
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I tried the soft bedding (1/8" adhesive backed neoprene) on my 48 and it won't stay in place. Really couldn't see any difference in accuracy or shot cycle either, my .02.
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Well I didn't have any 1/8" neoprene laying around, but I did have this thin sheet rubber.
So I figured "What the heck" "Cant hurt to give it a shot" right ?
It is .015 thick, and it certainly is not going to really compress like closed cell foam would, but it still should offer some kind of dampening effect. It's Not that "Gretchen" has a harsh shot cycle or anything like that,
and to be honest, I have so little trigger time with her,
that I wouldnt be able to say if there is much of a change either way.
I wont be able to try it until this weekend. If I like the way it shoots and feels, it'll stay,
And if not, it can be easily removed.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Beeman%204_zpsrvpbgt5a.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Beeman%203_zpsudpcpy8z.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Beeman%202_zpsw5a1twuh.jpg)
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I tried the foam bedding on my Benjamin Titan NP .177 wood stock.
It may have helped the accuracy some.
I cannot shoot break barrels good enough to see how much it helped.
It is shooting 8 or 9 shots out of ten into a 0.75" group at 18 yards.
That is about as good as I can shoot a break barrel most days.
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Nice information indeed.
I'd bedding of springers several times but I'm using neutraly(!) curing silicone (don't try the acid type one used in bath rooms etca.).
I prepare the stock usually degreasing inside and putting some masking tape on the edges.
Then wrap the system in one or two layers of clingwrap.
Silicone is put in the stock followed by the system.
Stock screws are get tightened in several small steps to allow the silicone to spread even, fill any gaps and to form a thin layer.
No need to overtighten the screws in the final step - just handtight is fine.
Let it cure at least overnight (depending on ambient temperature).
Take the system out and get clingwrap off.
Remove masking tape from stock awa any excess silicone.
Put a thin layer of gunoil on the system and assembly.
Job done.
Oh yes - it makes a difference.
Will try late to add some pictures here.
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Greetings pelletcaster,
Any update on the silicon bedding project on your LGV?
What shot benefit did you notice the most with this silicon bedding method?
What made you try curing silicone rather than the neoprene rubber option?
I am in the middle of tweaking my LGV Ultra for more consistent and better shot performance and appreciate any thoughts on this bedding method and the results you got.
Thanks :D
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i used 1/16" cheap sticky backed craft foam on the rifle in my avatar pic a good 5 years ago....STILL a dream to shoot
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Well I didn't have any 1/8" neoprene laying around, but I did have this thin sheet rubber.
So I figured "What the heck" "Cant hurt to give it a shot" right ?
It is .015 thick, and it certainly is not going to really compress like closed cell foam would, but it still should offer some kind of dampening effect. It's Not that "Gretchen" has a harsh shot cycle or anything like that,
and to be honest, I have so little trigger time with her,
that I wouldnt be able to say if there is much of a change either way.
I wont be able to try it until this weekend. If I like the way it shoots and feels, it'll stay,
And if not, it can be easily removed.
...............................
This new member has just read every thread through #177
All I can say is WOW!
This forum is a great find.
To the point
I'm about to try this on my old springer;
A Ruger Air Hawk .177.
Chuckle if you will; but it is the rile that taught me the artillery hold
It still gets some love now and again; taking out Starlings & Crows
It seems to be the verdict has come down on 1/8" hi density, closed cell, neoprene foam with adhesive backing.
Do have this right?
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Is there a torque spec for this?
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Hey guys
I have reread all of the posts I could find on soft bedding as I have a Diana 34 and a Crosman Summit slated for this procedure in the very near future. Primarily interested in reducing perceived recoil, and some hold sensitivity.
Pelletcaster, did the formed silicone liner made a big difference in recoil? Accuracy affected either way?
I saw two posts where people were going to try Sorbothane for its superior dampening properties, but no reporting or feed back post installation.
Noene makes insoles that are thin and have incredible vibration absorbing properties (shark-tank demo). Has anyone tried tbat material? Old thread, but good material, I hope some guys jump back in with new reports.
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Aloha, I had good luck with self stickum silicone cabernet bumpers. go to home depo these bumpers come in all sizes and alot of thickness. I used round flat watch battery size about 1/8" thick. place circles ( get some squares too) about where you want to put the silicone mark and apply contact peel and stick.
the little contact cement before you apply the silicone will insure good adhesion. less that comes off if you take stock off. litely tighten 1 hr. later 1/4 turn on stock screws 1 hr. 1/4 turn and so on. did my FWB-124 AND WITH A HOME TUNE (V-MACH) MAKES IT LESS HOLD SENSITIVE. KILL ALOT OF FELK VIBRATION RECOIL. put behind main stock lug & removed some wood I'm redu, got some 2" x 1/8" self stick um. silicone.
SPRINGER
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I’m going to try the foam tape that Don mentioned. I work in HVAC too, and when I read his comment, that was confirmation for me. I have tons of rolls, different materials and sizes. For those that don’t know where to get the stuff, this one should work best I think. Looks like it can be had at nationalsupplydirect.com.
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Just finished, this time I REMOVED ABOUT 1/8" of wood on all contact areas, I'm using neoprene fender washers 1/16" & 1/8".
And what I did difference was observed a 1" hole where the main trigger screws in to the reciver. cut a 1" 1/4" circle and hole for the bottom where the reciver nut contacts the stock , and put a 1" rubber groment over there receiver round nut. THEN added the neoprene bedding the stock used 1/4" on the back contact point. I carved the contact point under the safety to fit the 1/4rubber buffer. NOW the front stock screws I USED A rubber grommet sandwiched between 2 flat washers and A star washer Tvthe screw head and the flat washer.
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Kory
Let us know if you can tell a difference when your done. I ended up using a thin felt for mine, and the difference in perceived recoil is minimal @best.
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i bought a roll of the suggested material and installed it on one of my rifles, but i can't remember which one. may have been the 34 i sold. i'm doing some maintenance cleaning on all my rifles today so maybe i'll go ahead and install it on the break barrels. if i get around to it, i will post back. problem is, waiting several days to shoot it, i'll forget how it originally felt. :o
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I’m going to try the foam tape that Don mentioned. I work in HVAC too, and when I read his comment, that was confirmation for me. I have tons of rolls, different materials and sizes. For those that don’t know where to get the stuff, this one should work best I think. Looks like it can be had at nationalsupplydirect.com.
John, were you satisfied with the Armaflex tape? I went in the same direction and tried the AP/Armaflex 1/8" thick tape from Armacell. I bought it at homedepot, model #TAP18230. Unfortunately, I did not see noticeable improvement. I believe this tape is either too thin or compresses too much due to its cell structure.
That said, I found that the best way to remove it afterwards is to use the rounded side of a popsicle stick and then use a pencil eraser to remove any remaining adhesive.
I'm going to try a denser material next...
-Marty
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Just finished, this time I REMOVED ABOUT 1/8" of wood on all contact areas, I'm using neoprene fender washers 1/16" & 1/8".
And what I did difference was observed a 1" hole where the main trigger screws in to the reciver. cut a 1" 1/4" circle and hole for the bottom where the reciver nut contacts the stock , and put a 1" rubber groment over there receiver round nut. THEN added the neoprene bedding the stock used 1/4" on the back contact point. I carved the contact point under the safety to fit the 1/4rubber buffer. NOW the front stock screws I USED A rubber grommet sandwiched between 2 flat washers and A star washer Tvthe screw head and the flat washer.
Here's a pic is the stock screws and some removal COCKING ARM RIVOTs. for FWB-124/127 HW77K. AND A TRIGER GUARD I MADE FROM A HW-35 TO FIT MY FWB-124 . the round rubber grommets go on the reciver nut round disk with hole goes in the hole. I enlarged the hole for the reciver nut to fit. the stock screws , reciver nut and the thicker rubber at the back if the reciver, made the most differance in vibration and recoil . I have 3 FWB'S 2X 124 & A127 .22CAL. AND A EXTRA NON DELUXE BEACH STOCK . I EXPERIMENTED WITH THE CHEEP STOCK BE FOR I DID MY WALNUT TYROLEN STOCK. IF I HAVE TIME TOMARROW I'LL TAKE IT DOWN & POST PIC'S. SINSE I HAVEN'T SHOT IT ENOUGH ALL I CAN TELL YOU I TUNEN IT HOT AND THE RED NECK WAY I TESTED IT WAS I PUT THE RECOIL PAD ON MY CHIN AND SHOT IT , LIKE GETTING PUNCH. NOW FEELS NOT SHARP JUST LIKEVA NUGE. ONLY SHOT ABOUT 100 RND. AND OF SHOOTS GREAT , BUT IT ALL WAYS DID. WHEN I FINISH MY OUT TESTING OUT DOOR RANGE I'LL POST.
The removal of 1/8" of wood from the stock made it much easier to attach to the stock with out clamps. the removal cocking rivot
I can adjust and lock tight the barrel pivot pin. t
for good . leave barrel on an nd still remove piston .
Springet
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FWB-124 SOFT BED. PADDING THE RECIVER NUT. WELL WE PASSED THE RECEIVER , THE REMOVAL OF 1/8 OF WOOD FROM CONTACT AREAS , WAY EASTER TO REASSEMBLE TO STOCK WITH OUT Clamps. put two rubber groments on the RECI we nut .widens the hole where the reciver nut fits in to the stock. if you think about how much virbrasion is transfers to the stock thrpugh a metal to wood recover nut. 2 tight stock screws . Here are the 2 stock front trigger GUARD screw goes in to reciver nut. home made removal cocking arm rivot, trigger GUARD for FWB-124 MADE FROM HW-35 TRIGGER GUARD I'm using "1/8 & 1/4" nepream from a bag of auto fender washers I got from a auto body shop that was closing and a ton of O- rings. I like it because it's stiffer than weatherproofing. the 1/4" was used behind reciver , bottom of reciver hole the rubber grommets on the reciver nut are a thich 4.38mm. , I shoot it with out the stock screws passed & the unpadded reciver nut , up against my chin ,it was smart , and after the stock screws & reciver nut padding , only a NUGE cut vibration and recoil by 60+ %. Hope it will give some one ideas to do one better will post after I shoot 500 rounds at 40yds. Now my Fwb-124 was tuned kind of hot , that was my 1st. tune last year 7 he. 889fps. Beeman LASERS low 900's. but felt harsh. now smooth! well have fun
Aloha
Springer
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That's brilliant removing some wood so you have room for more dampening material between the stock and action.
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John, were you satisfied with the Armaflex tape? I went in the same direction and tried the AP/Armaflex 1/8" thick tape from Armacell. I bought it at homedepot, model #TAP18230. Unfortunately, I did not see noticeable improvement. I believe this tape is either too thin or compresses too much due to its cell structure.
That said, I found that the best way to remove it afterwards is to use the rounded side of a popsicle stick and then use a pencil eraser to remove any remaining adhesive.
I'm going to try a denser material next...
-Marty
[/quote]
I haven’t tried it yet. I have 2 rifles I think could benefit from this. My Diana is a synthetic stock that shoots fantastic groups out to 70 meters, but has some buzz in the stock during the shot. My Octane Elite is a handful, but needs a trigger job/mod in the worst way. I want to do the Octane first with the trigger job at the same time. I need to order the trigger component and then I’m going to do it, that rifle gave me fits until I got the Diana AMO3. Now I hardly shoot the Octane.
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I tried this on my hold sensitive D34, I could tell no difference in the hold sensitivity, and it made the breech block and barrel start rubbing the stock while cocking.
I had high hopes, but it didn't work on my gun.
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I tried this on my benji trail np2 last November and forgot about it! I'll have to pull it out, check the screws, and put some pellets down range.
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I’ve tried twice on my Benjamin Trail NP2 - First with the Home Depot armaflex tape and then with the 1/8” solid neoprene adhesive strips. The armaflex compressed too much and didn’t really do much of anything, but the neoprene definitely softened the sound. Unfortunately, I couldn’t test from a bench because the strips managed to shift and interfere with cocking the gun after about 24 hours. I’ll experiment with strip size/placement and give it another shot pretty soon.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed over the years to this thread. This is the kind of info that makes GTA such an amazing resource!
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First, my undying thanks to TimmyMac1 for this thread, and to all those who have contributed to it.
When I did this to my old '81 RWS/Diana 35 last year it was the final gilding of an already excellent shooter. Over the years I'd already attended to everything I could to refine its accuracy and had been happy with dime sized 10m groups. But of course I wanted better. The soft bedding was the answer. After bedding it I could bench rest it and get one hole, often as many as five in a single pellet hole and no group larger than a half pellet more. Oddly, while such accuracy was indeed satisfying, there was nothing left to conquer, and it became, in a way almost boring.
So this year I got my first new air rifle after nearly 40 years, a new Diana 48 T06 a week ago. What a difference from my 35! I had to learn how to shoot all over again... and though I changed scopes twice and varied all my knowns it still produced what seemed like scattergun groups... varying between 1 and 3 inches. After the accuracy of my 35 I got discouraged. Blamed the gun, the scope, my shooting, and even considered giving up and sending everything back. It was depressing.
After reading until my eyes bled about the artillery hold, then practicing it the best I could, I found the more than ten pounds of rifle and scope too much for me to hold accurately that way, though it did make a difference I knew I'd never achieve the accuracy I required using it. Too wiggley for me at the best, though groups did shring of course. So I tried my bags again and it got worse... every shot the rifle would shift POA by two inches at the target. Every. Shot.
Yesterday, deciding to grab the last straw and "soft bed" it like I did the 35. I'm posting this because what I've done on this D48 is what I did on the 35... but was afraid of the feedback if I revealed what I used. However, now that it's done even more for my D48 than it did for the 35 I'm taking the chance I won't be tarred and feathered when the method I used is revealed. But the results are extraordinary and I must. I can, as TimmyMac promised, use my bags again... and get 1/4" groups so far though I expect better as time goes on. And I love this gun now. It's a beast to me but worth every penny as opposed to being a vast disappointment a day ago.
After finishing the bedding job last night I shot a single group off my front bag, flat side up with a microfiber towel on it as usual... and got a sub-half inch group!. I was thrilled and quit for the night right there. Encouraged this morning I decided to add my rear bag, but with a difference, because I now understand what the artillery hold mechanics are all about. I used the rear to only steady my guiding hand on the bottom of the gun's butt rather than resting the gun in it the way I've always done. I put 10 JSB Hades into a 1/4" hole.
When I took the action out of the stock I was impressed with what Diana does on this gun, but also saw reason for bedding it. There was obvious chafing betwen the left rear of the action and stock with marks on the wood and residue on the action, for one. I also noted the rear protrusion over the stock beneath the safety had left a small dent, as well as contact at the front mount where the metal washer had dented the wood instead of being separated by the flexible bushing/washer there. I first sanded it all smooth inside and cleaned it up with acetone to ensure a good gripping surface. Interestingly, it seems the action's mounts are slightly offset to the left in the stock, leaving no possibility for the action to contact the wood anywhere on the right side... so bedding material would need to be everywhere but there. I also used the bedding material as a rubber washer under the front screw's metal washer, leaving only one metal-to-wood contact in the gun the rear screw in the trigger guard. Then of course I used Vibra-Tite VC3 on the screws and tightened it very firmly and put red witness marks on the screws.
Time to put my solution out there, and why I used it. First I used it because after trying everything mentioned and everything I could think of, none worked. The gap in my two Dianas is simply too thin. A year ago just before giving up and buttoning the 35 up I had a thought and tried it, which worked as described and used on my D48 with the same but even better success.
I used... FlexSeal Flex Tape. It's thin rubber has a sticky back that will never move, never compress and need retightened, and is easy to cut to shape and fit although you only get one chance so it takes some cautious effort but it is there for good. Removing it would be a chore.
So there it is. I'm finally out in the open among the most amazing airgun gurus on the planet. Be gentle.
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I used... FlexSeal Flex Tape.
Okay, but did you put it on under water? ;D
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I used... FlexSeal Flex Tape.
Okay, but did you put it on under water? ;D
Haaaaaaa! Haaa!
Seriously, I still haven’t soft bed any of mine yet. But, eventually I’m going to. When I do, I’m going to start with Octane Elite. Soft bed & trigger job.
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I used... FlexSeal Flex Tape.
Okay, but did you put it on under water? ;D
No... but that's why I used the Flex Seal Tape. I figured the next time I want to use it as a spear gun I'd have no worries! ;D ;D
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Update to my earlier post re Flextape:
Forget the Flextape... even if you're going to use the gun underwater LOL.
The thick sticky glue on the tape extruded out all over the inside of the stock... and glued my action in so tightly I had to patiently pry it out over a couple minutes time. It came out OK, but now I have to get the stuff out and it's proving to be a long hard difficult job.
I've ordered 1/16" (1.5mm) neoprene foam tape which won't be here for a week but that's probably how long it'll take me to get the stock clean again. Yuk. Going to seal the inside wood while I'm waiting as well. Should be done anyway but I didn't "take the time" before rushing into this.
The missus has a beautiful tat of a butterfly on her forearm with the letters EHFR beneath it in script. It means: Everything Happens For a Reason. Amazing how often that is true.
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After more than a week waiting on my neoprene tape order... during which I finished my trigger job, JB pasted and Bore Shined the barrel then recrowned it, I decided to go a different route. I was tired of waiting, for one thing. For another, I'd had time to think... mentally modeling what was really going on. So I acted on my theory. It's contrary to this thread and against conventional thinking... but I had nothing to lose, I'd already made a fool of myself once, once more wouldn't matter.
So....
I floated the entire action, which included a slight clearancing of the stock where the factory inletting was slightly off on the front... maybe half a mm, which let the barrel shroud band touch. Not good, and accounted for my horizontal stringing I had been getting.
The rear stock mount is set on a piece of rubber cut from a left over piece of garage door seal. It's compressible, 1/8" thick, and firm. Kinda like neoprene. Cut a strip that straddled the wood at the screw and up to 1/8" of the top on each side, and punched a hole in it to fit the stock's screw hole.
Next I cut a spherical segment off of a super ball, those things that are super springy and bounces with a high coefficient of restitution. The segment is as thick as the height of the front stock mount stud with a hole I punched out in the center to fit the stud. I put a rubber O-ring around the outside of the stock yellow rubber mount there and stuck the little dome of super ball over the stud flat-side down. Then I bolted the action into the stock very tightly front and rear.
It works amazingly well. Now when it's fired I don't lose the target because of the rifle jumping around. It vibrates still on target and I see where my shot hit.
The best thing is that after all that... it's shooting one hole groups now instead of shotgunning them. How's that for some heresy and bucking conventional wisdom. But to me it made sense. It follows Diana's original design, only enhanced. All major recoil is along the rifle axis with action vibrations dissipated without being transferred to the stock, especially at the front where it will cause the most POI disruption. Shot cycle is a short thump/pop and over with.
After a long hard uncertain struggle with this gun... I am one happy camper.
PS, I cancelled the neoprene tape order.
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Hey guys new to all this. I was quite keen to try this out. I had my BSA ( Gamo derivitive) apart the other day to fit CDT trigger and I found with the synthetic stock the whole action only touches the stock in three places, the front two screws and the rear mount into the trigger housing. The rest of the stock is almost hollow, and there is practically no where to place foam tape. Has anyone else run into this problem with synthetic stocks and did you overcome it. Would foam washers between stock and action work.
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Video for soft bedding
https://youtu.be/T7SRZFi0Qmc
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Thanks for posting the video Septcideath
It will come in handy some day.................. soon
Ed
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So a lot of folks have been asking for more specifics on durometer and specific material, and I just tried this. Note: my stock has been cracked for about 2 years. gun was weihrauch HW 95previously tried neoprene in 3/32" in durrometer 70A, 50A a nd 40A, all were too thick. Now tried Sorbothane, a 6"x6" sheet bought from company called Isolate It. They have a variety of thicknesses and durometer. Material was .08" thickness with a durometer of 30 (Shore 00 scale). The rear of compression tube was VERY tight behind trigger cutout (found later the knockout plugs were ripping the sorbothane), the front was significantly looser. Material did fit and started to squeeze out a bit around the edges a bit. Used the clamp trick to get the rear of the tube in. Everything went well at first. On the final tightening, there was a loud pop, and the pistol grip split down the left side. This is why I mention that the stock was already cracked, I doubt it would've happened on a good stock. But these are some more precise #s that someone may be able to use.
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i probably posted this before....1/16" poly crafting foam works wonders
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Soft Bedding. As a benchrest shooter bedding your action is the way to go , air gun is new to me so I'll throw this out , high power ue bedded the action only with epoxy bedding , coating the metal with shoe polish and modeling clay in all the books and crannies so the rifle wasn't permanently epoxied to the stock. Some took the simple approach if you weren't up to the task , using leather jbedding , a thin layer between the rifle and the stock cut down on the movement. I don't know being new at this sport if torque settings make a difference. Just thought someone would give leather bedding a try . I don't own a air rifle yet but I will see how well the fit is from stock to action to see if bedding will improve shots down range .will be ordering soon .
Chris
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Just got into the air rifle sport after almost 30 years of CF benchrest. Bedding our stocks using epoxy . Some who didn't feel comfortable using epoxy would leather bed their actions , torque setting action screws. Leather worked well also. Leather will remove vibration , just lay it across your work bench with a bolt laying on the leather , hit the leather with a hammer and see if the bolt moves more or less with the leather. Leather deadens vibration..
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This is similar to the trick used on the Remimgton 500 series .22's from the 40's-60's. The barreled actions were fastened to the stocks with but a single bolt so they tended to be a little finicky. Strips of bicycle wheel liner ( goes around the inside of the wheel to protect the tube from the spoke stubs ) were cut and laid in similar fashion under the action and a pad of it at the muzzle end of the stock. Two of my old Remmys are so equiped and it does work as intended. I will try it on my D34 as soon as the rain lets up enough to get to the shop.
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I had forgotten about this. I'm trying it with the next spring gun I get.
P
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Going to try this today on my D34 which shoots like a scatter gun. I’ve tried everything else I read about on here, Spring kit, trigger work, buttons, Kytox etc.
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Going to try this today on my D34 which shoots like a scatter gun. I’ve tried everything else I read about on here, Spring kit, trigger work, buttons, Kytox etc.
Please let us know how it works out. P
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Was having my own plans to bed my np2 trail. My plan was to remove some wood material, sandpaper wrapped around action, files, 1/16" or less like firearm epoxy bedding,I like the idea of complete formed coverage, one piece unit, no vibration, using clear silicone window sealant, oiled action set in wet silicone. Will test and use a release agent, gun oil, on stock and action surfaces so silicone will not adhere to stock or action, serviceable, very flexible dampening material, polysulphide maybe, too expensive, and compressive. Like a fluid, silicone cannot be compressed if contained, may not compress pre sanded gap, and retightening from compression in neoprene, sealed cells of air, highly compressable. Silicone will squeeze out of all edges, masked and finish trimmed, left to cure, then set screws, not too tight? A one piece solid serviceable shock absorbing unit,... unless, failure, it doesn't work, and I can't get the "dang" thing apart!
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VERY interesting (and a bit scary, if I was doing it myself) plan. If you go ahead with it, please document with pics and post them here!
Good luck!
Oh, one question - you would oil the wood to keep the silicone from sticking? The inleted areas of airgun stocks usually are unfinished. I wouldn't want to put oil on the wood. Regular oil (gun oil, motor oil,) isn't good to get on bare wood. Softens it up. Maybe some other release agent, or, let the silicone stick to the wood but not the metal. Of course, if the project didn't work out you'd then have a lot more hassle trying to get that stuff off the wood.
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i did the soft bedding and tightening sequence on my .22 D34. Then got to try it on a bench. Definitely saw some improvement. a few 5/8" groups @75'. but also some 2" groups. Prior to soft bedding it was mostly the latter. Going in the right direction.
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Air gunners I'm probably going to be a party pooper on this subject but I shoot and like springers as is. Trying different holds until you find the magic one and best pellet is like a contest to me. One that I enjoy. I will never bed a springer and I can always shoot a PCP that well you know, it's so easy to be accurate.
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Could someone give me a link to the proper bedding material. The 1/8" neoprene I bought as so dense there was no way it would work.