HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
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HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
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Topic: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test (Read 1094 times))
Deerstalker
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 521
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Real Name: Dave
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #20 on:
November 23, 2021, 11:54:42 AM »
H&N FTT 14.66 gr 5.53 mm average 716 FPS in my HW95L .22 and are very accurate for me. ARH kit with Vortek seal & GPL-205 Krytox lube.
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USA, North Carolina, Cary
HW95L .22 "Crazy Accurate" MOS at 25 yards
AIRMAX 30, SF, IR, COMPACT 4-16 x 44 mm
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Toxylon
Expert
Posts: 1706
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Real Name: Duke
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #21 on:
November 23, 2021, 01:09:24 PM »
That lightweight Expresses leave the barrel slow isn't news to me, anymore.
I haven't tested them in my HW95 yet (have to do it!), but in other .22 cal springers I have, they have failed pretty spectacularly.
My D48 .22 cal shoots Expresses a whopping 33 fps slower than FTT 5.53's. Even Exacts are 6 fps faster than the much lighter Expresses. KE-wise, other pellets have some 10+ % over the Expresses.
My LGV .22 cal in 16 J OEM guise shoots Expresses some 6 fps slower than FTT 5.53's. And the LGV is a gun that LIKES normal Exacts, shooting them in my gun with top KE. My LGV in general shoots small-skirted, even loose-fitting pellets really well, due to TP geometry. So, this isn't why the Expresses perform so poorly.
Guess I'll test them in the rest of my .22 cal springer configurations. Have to have some use for the 500-count tin.
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Bayman
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 4824
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Real Name: Ron
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #22 on:
November 23, 2021, 03:59:00 PM »
Thank you Chris and Duke for that information. I guess that particular JSB doesn't fare well in Weihrauchs. I didn't have much luck with the JSB 22 RS's either when I was pellet testing for my Hw50. The accuracy was lousy, but then again alot of the skirts were damaged because they're so thin. JSBs usually work well in my 177 guns. The jury is still out with my 20 caliber guns. The sizing on the H&N and RWS is more consistent than the JSB. Although the H&N sizing person must be on dope. My FTT 4.51 are tighter than my 4.52s and my 5.53s are tighter than my 5.54s. At least they're consistent with in the tin.
Oh well thanks again for the information Chris and Duke.
Be well
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USA,
Hw30- .177- Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw30 Laminate- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke
Airmax 2-7x32 AO.
Hw30-.177 Vortek PG3 steel, Hawke Vantage IR 2-7x32 AO
Hw50- .177- Vortek PG3, Hawke 4X non A/O
Hw95- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40
R9 SE (Blue Laminate stock) - 0.020- Vortek PG4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw97SE (Green 77 Laminate stock)-.177 Vortek PG3, Hawke 4-12x40 Airmax
R1-.177 now 0.22 - Vortek Pg4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw95 Field Pro 0.22 custom Vortek kit, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw98 0.20 Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
P1- 0.20 now .177
subscriber
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 6785
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Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #23 on:
November 23, 2021, 04:51:07 PM »
The idea that soft JSB skirts will balloon out depends on full pressure being developed. If the force required to start the pellet is too low, then a springer would not produce full pressure.
The starting force is a combination of the initial skirt to cone "popping force", and mass inertia of the pellet. Heavier pellets can make do with smaller diameter softer skirts, but light ones can't develop full pressure if they "get out of the way" too soon.
The initial pellet stiction in the breech also depends on the head friction, but high head friction that drags all the way down the barrel is a negative for FPE. The skirt's reluctance to enter the barrel is part of the pressure ramp equation, and the efficiency down the barrel. There needs to be a high resistance at the skirt at entering the barrel, but not too high or piston bounce will be excessive and "early", preventing full energy from being transferred to the pellet.
The fact that pellet seaters exist as a product is an indication that someone does not understand that pellet to breech resistance in a springer is not a "loss". This is because energy is force x distance. If the pellet requires a peak of 10 lb to break loose, where that force drops immediately as the skirt enters the bore, for an average 5 lb over the release distance, then the work done for a .02" "popping free" movement is only 1.2 FPE. If removing that resistance seems like it should gain 1.2 FPE, that is not so, because the lack of resistance will reduce the peak (and average) air pressure by much more than that "gain".
Is it possible to have too much initial pellet skirt to breech cone resistance? I think, yes. Especially in low power springers with slow, bouncy pistons. They might benefit from a different breech cone geometry - or just a light polish if there is any roughness or sharpness there. Certainly, finding the most energetic pellets, while searching for the most accurate ones is a worthwhile endeavor.
Pushing pellets into the breech and measuring the force provides an indication of what happens in firing, but cannot measure the additional force the air pressure generates, as it pushes the skirt even harder against the cone and down the first small increment of barrel length.
What is resistance and what is friction can be hard to separate. Certainly, lead hardness, thickness and shape, as well as slipperiness (lube) all affect the development of breech pressure, and the friction of the skirt (and head) all the way down the barrel.
I have also noticed that H&N pellets seem to produce more FPE than JSB and RWS pellets. I suspect they have lower average friction, with just the right amount of initial resistance. This observation includes my 4 FPE IZZY MP-46M single stroke pneumatic pistol. It has a breech cone like a springer, but I don't think that is the only factor.
Another family of pellets that seems to produce higher FPE than JSB are Spanish made Daisy hollow points; in .177 and .22. They appear to be soft lead, and feel very slippery. Waxy perhaps, with an almost wet feel of the pellet between fingers, despite being dry.
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subscriber
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 6785
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Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #24 on:
November 23, 2021, 05:09:52 PM »
Perhaps someone might be inspired to flare pellet skirts using a controlled method, then measure velocity as a function of diameter and "popping force" - using a number of different springers. I suspect there is a popping resistance that is "just right" for a given air rifle. And that the ideal pellet geometry and mass combination is not the same for all air rifles...
While one is at it, shot to shot velocity variation should also be captured. It is obviously important that any pellet skirt modification be highly repeatable, or shot to shot variation could drown out any potential increase in FPE. Sometimes, the skirt diameter might need to be reduced. Forum member
Nvreloader
has a number of threads and post of measured pellet head and skirt diameters. The variation and extremes are quite surprising. Right now, those tables of data are hiding from me. I did find this: JSB pellets with a deliberately flared skirt for increased velocity:
www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=115905.0
EDIT Found one of Don's threads with pellet head and skirt diameters. Don has several such tables:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=190531.msg156206815#msg156206815
«
Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 05:19:55 PM by subscriber
»
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Bayman
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 4824
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Real Name: Ron
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #25 on:
November 23, 2021, 05:53:53 PM »
Subs I agree with you on everything except maybe the H&N make more power than the JSBs with similar weight pellets. At least with my guns it's only been rare occasions I've seen H&Ns do better. The afore mentioned 22 caliber Hw30 is the only one I can think of the H&Ns did better hence my surprise. In the end its consistent accuracy that counts and I have say the H&Ns are superior in that department with almost all my guns. Just kills me to give up power to do it.
Your comment on the pellet seating tool is pretty funny. I've experimented with seating pellets from the skirt hanging out at 1/4" in the bore. The deeper I seat the pellets usually the slower they go. I think it has to do with compression space. Just like increasing the transfer port size usually decreases velocity. Overall I find just finger seated flush works best for power. You get the skirt pop you were talking about that builds up maximum pressure. I have gotten tighter extreme spreads seating tight pellets just past the pop but it really didn't increase accuracy at all, so I don't bother anymore. It's funny how some pellets that are tight or loose produce less energy than those with a good fit. You'd expect the tight ones to suffer from drag and or piston bounce and the loose ones to fly, but they don't. The don't because they fit too loose to develop full pressure as you mentioned.
When I get home I'll recheck my chronograph records for my guns to make sure I'm not off base about the JSB / H&N thing. Maybe I'll run some testing and document it. Doesn't look like I'm fishing for a while.
Be well my friend
Ron
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USA,
Hw30- .177- Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw30 Laminate- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke
Airmax 2-7x32 AO.
Hw30-.177 Vortek PG3 steel, Hawke Vantage IR 2-7x32 AO
Hw50- .177- Vortek PG3, Hawke 4X non A/O
Hw95- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40
R9 SE (Blue Laminate stock) - 0.020- Vortek PG4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw97SE (Green 77 Laminate stock)-.177 Vortek PG3, Hawke 4-12x40 Airmax
R1-.177 now 0.22 - Vortek Pg4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw95 Field Pro 0.22 custom Vortek kit, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
Hw98 0.20 Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
P1- 0.20 now .177
subscriber
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 6785
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Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #26 on:
November 23, 2021, 06:46:13 PM »
Yes, Ron; deep seating a pellet past the "pop" will lower velocity drastically, due to the reduced "compression ratio" that results from what amounts to a larger TP volume. That, and the fact that there is very little friction to hold the pellet against incoming air, for pressure to build up properly.
My analogy is that of jet turbine aircraft on a short runway. The brakes are used to hold the plane from moving, until the turbine is spun up, to a speed where it can develop usable thrust by adding lots of fuel. Else, the plane creeps forward without gaining much speed, using up precious runway length.
As for pellet design; it seems there is opportunity to improve it, but I would not dare second guess JSB et al, without a lot of testing beforehand. There appears to be a number of apparently contradictory factors at work...
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happymecanic
Expert
Posts: 1274
Real Name: Francois
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #27 on:
November 23, 2021, 07:29:05 PM »
Hi Duke, I have an HW85 in .22 made in 2014, Canadian edition. It does have the typical ''tight-loose-tight'' bore, but not too pronounced (except for the choke). It does have a loose bore though, it shoots FTT 5.53 with decent accuracy, but could use 5.54 or 5.55 I'm sure. The lands don't engrave much on the head or skirt, I hope it's visible in the picture. It's also rather hold-sensitive, but when I do my part she does well.
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Toxylon
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Posts: 1706
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Real Name: Duke
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #28 on:
November 24, 2021, 11:15:01 AM »
Thanks guys for the discussion! Much to mull over here, and further testing to be done.
Also, good to hear, happymechanic. Middle-loose .22 HW barrels abound.
FWIW, I have PelletGaged a good number of Exact .22 cal tins (calipers etc. commonly used don't really work here). I've learned that Exacts are very consistent, with 80 % + of the pellets in a tin having the exact diameter as it says on the tin, and the rest having a diameter just 0.01mm different. That is very good.
The value of Gageing even Exacts became apparent though, when I had a tin of Exact 5.50's that seemed strangely tight in the breeches of my guns. I whipped out the Gage and learned that the pellets were actually 5.54 in diameter! That's a pellet size that doesn't exist, as far as the product line is concerned. However, this abnormal tin was just as consistent as the others, with 80 % + being 5.54. I'm in the process of testing these tight Exacts in various springers.
Haven't Gaged FTTs yet (it is somewhat tedious). Crosmans are all over the map, while Gamos cannot be Gaged - they are too far and wide off. But that was no surprise, given their total mis-fit into breeches, with some pellets dropping a couple of mm's in, others not going in at all with a strong push, and everything between.
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G1250 .22 cal
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Mercury .177 cal
D25 .177 cal (c. 1960)
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E-C2 5.4 mm (c. 1920)
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Toxylon
Expert
Posts: 1706
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Real Name: Duke
Re: HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test
«
Reply #29 on:
December 04, 2021, 12:56:29 PM »
I just PelletGaged 100 H&N FTT 5.53's. They came from a tin with pellets that are annoyingly tight in the breech of my HW95, usually requiring a double-push to chamber, but similarly tight also in my other .22 cal's breeches. Suspicions that they are not what the tin says were the main motivator here, but this is the first time I've ever Gaged H&N's, so it's interesting on its own.
H&N FTT 5.53 true head diameter:
5.52 = 4 %
5.53 = 54 %
5.54 = 42 %
In this sample, FTT's fared quite a bit worse than my previous several samples of Exacts. Close to one half of the pellets here are bigger than the tin says. I suspect this is a factor in the perceived tightness of the pellets, although 5.54 is not even the biggest nominal size for FTT's.
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LGV Master Ultra .22 cal
D54 CCA .20 cal
D52 Luxus .22 cal
350 Mag .177 / .22 / .25 cal
HW80 .177 cal
H135 .25 cal
WFH .22 cal
Fenix 400 .22 cal
G1250 .22 cal
MP513M .22 cal
D34 .177 cal
Mercury .177 cal
D25 .177 cal (c. 1960)
LG55 .177 cal (c. 1961)
BSF S54 Match .177 cal (c. 1965)
E-C2 5.4 mm (c. 1920)
FX T12 .22 cal
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HW95L .22 cal bore pellet push test