A New Method for Increasing the Efficiency of a PCP - the SSG

[rsterne]

I agree, the part you put in bold is not true, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt (the hammer still bounces and rattles around, it just doesn't make any difference).... The SSS can reduce bounce, I have no experience with the TSS, but the SSG is far superior in preventing HARMFUL bounce where the valve reopens, when properly designed and adjusted.... and it does it with a lower maximum cocking effort.... The key is the preload of the spring against the stop on the guide....

We are on the same page here....   

Bob

[triggertreat]

Hunter, you should be good with the lower tune and have great results with an SSG.  I am not sure which SSG design you have decided on, there are plenty to select from.  It's true though that the more spring you can fit within the confines of the allotted space, the less the cocking force required.  I designed a captured SSG for my Marauders so there would be no change to the look of the gun, and could adjust pretty much like stock adjustments.

However, for me, I found the original TSS system was the cats meow for the best ES using twins springs with all of the space available for the longest springs.  Plus the fine tuning is endless with being able to adjust both the inner and outer springs.  I custom cut my springs for the tuning range I wanted, and to allow for a gap within that range.  I have had the TSS system in both my Marauders since.  Unfortunately, unless you make one, that isn't an option anymore.  Also, I would never consider the 2nd generation TSS design.  The best part of the TSS was removed in that version.

A lot of input about these mods, but one must add that a lot is dependent on the pressure behind the valve.  Many are different thus the setups are different.  At any rate, it's true that one can gain up to a 50% increase in shot count if installing one of these to gain a gap in an already poorly tuned gun with preload applied to the valve.  Far less when adding to an already properly tuned preloaded setup.

[Dardo]

rsterne,

I´ve made the "floating guide SSG" for the Benjamin Maximus, but I just realized how important is the spring pre-load now, after rereading this finals posts a lot.

I´m using the disco hammer spring now, but I´m concerned about spring losing its size and strength. I left the 1377 spring compressed for about a week or so, while testing the SSG and I've found out it was completely without pre-compression. The 1377 spring shrunk.

So, what kind of wire material should the spring be made of? or you guys just make the pre-compression before a shooting session and then decompress the hammer spring?

Eduardo

[Motorhead]

SSG devise and the spring used ALWAYS stay under compression at the assembled pre-load.  Cocking the action takes most springs a tad shy of coil bind.
Quality high carbon springs I never had issues with sacking out or failures.

[rsterne]

Before you use ANY hammer spring, simply "set" it to remove any possibility of it getting shorter with use.... Slide the spring over a rod, and using two nuts or collars, press on the ends of the spring to compress it fully, until the coils are touching (coil bound).... Do this a half dozen times.... Chance are when you are finished the spring will be shorter than it started out.... What you have done is exceeded the tensile strength of the wire, and permanently reduced the spacing between the coils, shortening the spring....

Contrary to popular belief, springs seldom get shorter in use, once this simple method of setting them is used.... This is because you can never place a higher load on the wire than what you did by setting it.... As an example, the hammer spring from a Disco loses about 0.2" of length when set.... and it takes only being compressed once (even by cocking to coil bind) to make that occur.... Poor quality springs MIGHT shorten further, but I personally have never experienced it with the music wire springs we use.... SET IT AND FORGET IT.... 

Bob

[lennyk]

Question,
For the marauder ssg design with bolt through the hammer, should the hole in hammer be a close fit on the bolt or very loose is ok for better sliding forward when hammer released?

[Motorhead]

Loose enough so the TILT the hammer receives when cocking it DOES NOT BIND on the bolt it will be sliding over.

IMO this type SSG is the least accurate due too the mass of hammer and its momentum being damped as it strikes the head of bolt needing to get the ENTIRE SSG DEVISE's mass moving before poppet is struck.  It works OK, just self contained SSG's and hammer being in independent free flight works better IMO.

[triggertreat]

Question,
For the marauder ssg design with bolt through the hammer, should the hole in hammer be a close fit on the bolt or very loose is ok for better sliding forward when hammer released?

As square and as close of a tolerance as you can drill it and it still slide very smooth over a polished SS bolt that is as straight as possible.  The less wobble the better.

Also, as much spring space as you can create.  Removing the OEM spring adjuster with something that can still adjust the bolt gap is best.

If you are so inclined, search for the F.A.M.E mod I developed.  When you start compressing the hammer spring, that also creates more of a tilt/dig between the hammer and the air tube area which causes more galling and harder cocking.  This mod will make cocking butter smooth by raising the back of the hammer up off the air tube preventing galling.  When done right, the ES will be very impressive as the hammer glides very consistently and smooth making the cocking effort smooth as well.

[lennyk]

Yup, a friend has this type of ssg and I find the es ain’t all that.
The mass of the heavy hammer has to hit and carry forward the bolt.

Has an extra  frictional bolt issue to deal with along with the collision and mass moving forward,

[triggertreat]

Yup, a friend has this type of ssg and I find the es ain’t all that.
The mass of the heavy hammer has to hit and carry forward the bolt.

Has an extra  frictional bolt issue to deal with along with the collision and mass moving forward,

Friends can be a wonderful thing to have, but when it comes to setting up my guns, its got to be me.

The free floating SSG types are know doubt better performers and easier to build, but the type you asked about can work really well, too.  The difference is the protrusion outside the gun with those other mods verses the unseen SSG you asked about.  I guess you just have to pick your mod or try them both to see which one you like the most overall.

[aPpYe]

So now that the SSG has been around for nearly seven years(!) are there any thoughts on what would be the best design?  I built one back then (Super easy, barely an inconvenience!) with a challenger RVA and a bolt, basically Bob's original design.  Quoting Bob, the "guide absorbs energy but does contribute to strike."  While my brain tells me this would mean the design theoretically requires a slightly heavier spring or more preload, I would think the difference would be negligible, compared to designs where the guide does contribute its energy to the strike.  Is this assumption correct?  I have been out of the hobby for some years but am about to rebuild my frankengun and am wanting to see if there are any developments in this arena I should be aware of ...

[triggertreat]

So now that the SSG has been around for nearly seven years(!) are there any thoughts on what would be the best design?  I built one back then (Super easy, barely an inconvenience!) with a challenger RVA and a bolt, basically Bob's original design.  Quoting Bob, the "guide absorbs energy but does contribute to strike."  While my brain tells me this would mean the design theoretically requires a slightly heavier spring or more preload, I would think the difference would be negligible, compared to designs where the guide does contribute its energy to the strike.  Is this assumption correct?  I have been out of the hobby for some years but am about to rebuild my frankengun and am wanting to see if there are any developments in this arena, I should be aware of ...

I settled with the original version of the TSS (Twin Spring System) for the best efficiency, fine tuning, performance and consistent ES after many SSG trials.  The TSS replaced the final design of my own DIY SSG shown in the first photo which did quite well, but I found the TSS offered up a tighter and more consistent ES.

In the last two photos showing the TSS you can see a larger main spring with its own adjustment and a smaller inner spring with its own adjustment while the MDS hammer is still free floated.  The springs are custom cut.  The main spring is cut to allow a gap between the hammer and valve while leaving full thread adjustment and being flush with the end cap.  The inner spring is custom cut to also allow for a gap and for fine tuning and for its bolt adjustment to sit flush with the locking nut (not shown) so I can use my thumb to pull the cocking bolt back.

There is a setscrew in the end cap and a locking nut on the bolt to lock these two spring adjustments down after tuning.  I have the TSS system in both of my Marauders today and they work and hold up very well.

[aPpYe]

What I don't like about the TSS (at least the one I have) is that there is no adjustment to the outer spring.  The one I got was meant for a P-Rod it looks like.  My guess is that with the Marauder having a larger diameter tube, it allows for adjustment of both springs.  Also, since I am doing this on essentially a Disco platform, I would also have to drill and tap holes in it to mount it into the tube.  That said, I have never tried my TSS, as the gun has been apart for years.  I will likely tinker with that as well.

[triggertreat]

What I don't like about the TSS (at least the one I have) is that there is no adjustment to the outer spring.  The one I got was meant for a P-Rod it looks like.  My guess is that with the Marauder having a larger diameter tube, it allows for adjustment of both springs.  Also, since I am doing this on essentially a Disco platform, I would also have to drill and tap holes in it to mount it into the tube.  That said, I have never tried my TSS, as the gun has been apart for years.  I will likely tinker with that as well.

I am not familiar with the Prod but possibly what you may have is the newer revised version 2 of TSS.  The second adjustment was eliminated in the version 2 to simplify it.  Travis would know the particulars on these as he is the mastermind behind the TSS system.  I am very fortunate to have two of the original Marauder TSS versions.

[TheOtherSprocket]

Hi Friends - In an effort to reduce the hammer bounce in my 2260 I was attempting to build an SSG described in post #637 as it was the simplest and I thought I could use a cap from a 2300 power adjuster.

I gathered parts as best I could off the shelf from my local chain hardware store bins.  Once I got it all home I had some trouble getting the length right and so on.

It was in my search of spare parts in the garage that I thought of the method of using the o-rings to soften the blow at the valve.  Then I found a spring left over from a repair to my sprinkler system air breaker...

I brought the spring to the gun and it fit the tube - then I eyeballed the fit on the valve and found that if I cut the spring exactly in half it might do the trick.  Out came the dremel and the spring was cut.  If it turned out to be too stiff I was going to cut it back in small increments but this wasn't necessary.

I assembled the parts back together and gave it a test - the Brrrrt was gone and while it may not be 100% gone, it certainly is reduced to a level that bears testing.  I hope to get some range time in before I go to work today and focus on round count rather than FPS,etc. 

I had already cut approx. 1 full coil off the hammer spring so I'm using it.  I also did the set screw mod to the trigger group -  No other mods to gun have been made.  The valve is in OEM condition with an unknown round count as I bought the gun second hand.

The spring is 3/4" dia. and 1" long - it feels quite stiff for airgun use but when you cut it down it seems to work well if not perfectly.  The parts kit cost me about $15 shipped from HD and like I said, this was a spare left over from a repair.  I'm sure a single spring can be had for less at a good hardware store.  Still, for about $15 and no other mods, this might be a solution that folks without access to machine shop tools can use to increase performance on a budget.

Here's a link to the parts list for my sprinkler:
https://www.watts.com/products/plumbing-flow-control-solutions/repair-kits/rk-800m4/rk-800m4-v-1

I hope folks find this helpful.  I'll report back when I get some testing done.

[TheOtherSprocket]

And some trimming needs to happen - no piercing of the air cartridge...

[TheOtherSprocket]

Finally got back to this.

I cut 1/2 coil off and round count went from "some" to "I lost count after 50"  Good enough for me.

I did figure out I have a bent barrel though so that was fun.

[TheOtherSprocket]

This just in - Don't try this, waste of time, effort and energy.

[Gippeto]

I'm gonna disagree...respectfully. Almost a standard piece of any build or re-build now...pretty much a "must have" with a balanced valve too.

















Al

[PikeP]

Alternatively one could build around hammer bounce and have the gun cock itself after each trigger pull or become a semi auto action (marauder semi auto uses hammer bounce to provide semi auto function)

Either way when done correctly I must agree with Gipetto, the SSG is a must in any build that is not using hammerless or hammer bounce semi auto functions