Here is a thread with squirrel kill recovered BBT 27.2 grain hollow point... post 12https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=161739.0 I would stick to the BBT if in an area were their use is not problematic... and I tend to want to hunt away from town anyways... only have taken Starlings these past few years...they are good when have been at the cherries a bit... hunting a couple the orchards is definite pellet situation...
What I get from this is just placement is most important and you don't really need expansion with 22 or 25 caliber airguns at least to kill squirrels. My experience with powder burners is that rabbits die easier to I would expect the same there.The FX slug is supposed to expand the most. I wonder if it even passed through the bunnies. It should have gotten to something vital but I like deep wound channels, not wide shallow ones. Just guessing. My new P35 likes H&N Slug HPs so I will test them in wet paper shortly. I tested JSB Knockouts from my Avenger and they penetrated about like the FTT pellets from my Prod but expanded to 3/8 inch. My Avenger is tuned to 45-50 fpe. If the FX expands more, and I think it may, then penetration could have been your issue. H&Ns are supposed to expand less and penetrate deeper but I will test and see. I like to do paper tests on new projectiles before shooting game with them. I include a projectile I have confidence in for comparison (like the FTT from my Prod). I test at 25 yards.
What we need to see are exit holes from game. I admit I did not look at the one in the bunny that ran but was recovered.I should have!I love to hunt in the deep fields and forests, all things considered, but I also like to be able to walk outside and hunt, especially when there's game...
So, if we are shooting within 50 yards, where BC doesn't matter much, why are we shooting slugs?
(One should also keep in mind that *momentum* is more important to affect on game than terminal energy, and heavy projectiles have the advantage here. This is why an old .45-70 rifle can literally knock an elk over, while a .300 Magnum leaves him wondering what stung him.)
If bullet momentum were enough to knock over an elk, then the much lighter human firing the rifle would be knocked down by shooting it. Clearly that is not the case. Recoil energy is much less than bullet energy because the gun is much heavier than the projectile. However, the gun has the same momentum as the bullet (actually more, due to the mass and velocity of gas leaving the muzzle). Yet, while the recoil of a .45-70 (or 12 gauge shooting slugs) is rather noticeable to a human, there is no risk of it knocking down an elk.Quote from: PaulFWI on November 07, 2021, 11:09:18 PM(One should also keep in mind that *momentum* is more important to affect on game than terminal energy, and heavy projectiles have the advantage here. This is why an old .45-70 rifle can literally knock an elk over, while a .300 Magnum leaves him wondering what stung him.)
Momentum is not used to "push" the animal because the bullet *penetrates* it. I shouldn't have phrased that the way I did.
I think the pellet tumbles a lot more than a "short for caliber" slug. The skirt can quickly develop a very sharp cutting edge then you have cutting and crushing force. If the pellet passes through while tumbling it would create a massive amount of tissue damage compared to a slug. The shape of the slug may also have a lot to do with this. A SWC or something with a significant meplat should do more tissue damage compared to the steep ogive FX hybrids. If that SWC were also cup or hollow point it should expand significantly compared to a solid core or the FX slugs with such a tiny hollow point. Does the risk of fragmentation go up with cup or hollow point projectiles? That's one of my main concerns for hunting ammo. I've been casting cup point ammo for my .45 Challenger, but I'm starting to think for deer I will want a flat nose to make an exit wound for more tissue damage. It seems like there is no easy answer for pellet vs slug or hollow vs solid or round/pointed vs flat nose. Seems like it's all dependent on what you are doing. For something like a rabbit a hollow point slug is probably less effective than a longer pellet. If you were using the same rifle for a raccoon, skunk, or something of that size, perhaps the slug is more effective since there is more mass to absorb that energy if it exits. I'm just kind of rambling here. Bullet shape has been a big topic in a trial I'm watching, but my wife doesn't really care to talk about it haha
DJ,Pellets are nose heavy; thus naturally stable to fly nose first through air. For the same reason, they do not tumble in flesh, unless they strike bone at an oblique angle. Pellets recovered from game show mangled noses with hardly any damage to their skirts.Contrast that with bullets. If not for their spin, they would tumble in air. Even when spun fast enough to stay point first in air, pointy bullets (tail-heavy) tend to tumble on contact with thicker "fluids", such as ballistics gel and flesh; unless they mushroom to some degree. A mushroomed bullet is nose heavy and tracks straight, unless deflected by bone.For any given bullet construction, there is a minimum impact velocity to usefully expand a slug; especially to a proper "mushroom" shape. (Yes, it also depends on the target medium; and few gels are equivalent to meat. Also a squirrel is "softer" and lighter than a deer). That expansion threshold velocity is surprisingly low, for un-jacketed thin walled pure lead hollow point slugs. Matthias (JungleShooter) has compiled lots of useful data and images about the performance of hollow point expanding projectiles. I suggest you take a look at those.If we are talking about harvesting deer with a .45 caliber air rifle that shoots 400 grain bullets at 680 FPS muzzle velocity, then I would opt for a semi-wadcutter, rather than a hollow point spitzer. The entrance and exit hole diameter, and tract diameter and depth for the semi-wadcutter will be much more predictable, than for a conical hollow point bullet, that may or may not expand. Now, you might suggest a hollow point semi-wadcutter as a good alternative. Hard to argue with that. Whatever the projectile, it should at least reach the skin on the far side of the animal in broadside shots. I would argue that a full caliber wound track all the way through (including the skin on the far side) is better than a slightly larger hole that stops short of the skin on the far side because it is likely to bleed more. This is probably very true, if the hole on the near side hide is small and able to close itself off - something more likely with a near spitzer shape conical bullet at subsonic velocity. Rather than argue bullet types in more than a general fashion, real results obtained with actual projectiles should count for more. Especially as a system. This includes the size and species of the animal, and the shot placement; on top of the detailed projectile design, material hardness and impact velocity. The barrel twist rate can affect the threshold at which a conical hollow point slug tumbles in the animal, if the impact velocity was not high enough to mushroom it enough to resist that. Blunt semi-wadcutters tend to track straight and resist tumbling, even without significant expansion.Tumbling may or may not produce enough damage to be effective (yes, it is spectacularly effective when it occurs with high velocity FMJ bullets, that have more than enough energy to pass through). This is because tumbling tends to include veering off course. If such a change in direction veers away from vital structures, then tumbling is less effective. The converse is also true. In any event, tumbling projectiles are likely to produce a mix of very fast and very slow kills - not a mechanism one should rely on.So, a slow semi-wadcutter, or a much faster hollow point bullet should both produce reliable results on deer. The latter by causing more damage to vital organs, at the expense of a second larger "bleed hole" to the far side. If I had to shoot a larger animal such as a moose, where heavy bone is likely to be hit, I would go with the solid semi-wadcutter rather than a soft hollow point. Else, hitting bone may limit penetration to the point of badly wounding the animal rather than killing it.People tend to stick with projectiles that have worked well for them before, under similar circumstances; even if there is something "better" out there. Not a bad strategy.
Bob has written some awesome articles on pellet vs. slug expansion in HardAir Magazine. 👍🏼😊