💢 Talk me into KEEPING a .25cal PCP! — What does .25cal do that .22cal can't?

[JP806]

Ummm

Maybe you are thinking to shoot extreme? Bench rest? RMAC?

Instead of whacking pigeons, you might want to look into Bench Rest and extreme. I hear there's prize money in those sports. unless you are already making money as a pest controller.

Heck, I hear they are even giving away air rifles, pellets, slugs, scopes in those events.

I think most top shooters in those sports are shooting 0.25 caliber or 0.30 caliber. (I could be wrong).

If I had a 0.25, I might look into that.

[JungleShooter]

To me hitting the spine squarely could be from many angles but you have to put the center of the pellet on the center of the spine.  When that happens, it seems to be particularly effective in messing things up (on the target). 
I think the last one I shot that way was facing me.

Thanks for that important clarification, Jim. 👍🏼

OTOH, I absolutely love my dwindling pile of .25 wadcutters.   
I love .22 wadcutters but WHATEVER THEY DO  a quarter-bore wadcutter does even better — especially reaching out past 35 yards.

Yeah, I got to ask, I really do, Peter:
❓ What is is that wadcutters DO? Any details are appreciated. 

If I remember right, you are making your own WC? 
That is not an option to me at this point.
However, I have found two serious wadcutters:

● .22cal:  JSB Ultra Shock Heavy 25.39gr (a wadcutter with a narrow, deep hole). 

➠ I need to try them, though my gun will only get them up to around 800fps =38FPE.

● .25cal:  Eun Jin (rebranded Seneca Dome), that has the shape of a semi-wadcutter, at a whopping 35.80gr. 
My gun shoots them at 890fps =63FPE. 
 
➠ However, shooting them into pigeons I was not impressed by their terminal performance. Nothing spectacular during impact. For sure — the quarry is dead. But a lowly 25gr dome would have been able to do that.


🔶 Got any insights?   
▪ Maybe a particular shot placement on pigeons? 
▪ Or the difference between pigeons and the quarry that produces more spectacular kills for you?

Thanks!! 😊
Matthias

[Habanero69er]

Matthias, I’ve been shooting the Ultra Shocks at 50FPE at the muzzled from my Rainstorm-I just to give you an idea. I’ve also used them in my Steroided 342 with good accuracy, but not enough FPE to make them expand very much.
You’re right when you describe the Ultra Shocks as a Wadcutter with a hole in it.

[JimD]

I've never shot a pigeon but my impression after killing a few birds is that it is easy to miss the vitals.  I have to hit the upper part of the body to get a clean kill and even then, if they are up in a tree, they may glide down traveling a significant distance.  On squirrels I can see where I need to hit them better and if I hit them across the chest I get consistent DRT results.  On birds it's easy to place the shot lower than I want and even when I hit them up in the chest they are more likely to travel some distance before expiring if they are up in the air.  Squirrels drop from trees, birds glide away. 

Have you tried polymags or metalmags?  Metalmags were the only expanding pellet to expand at all when shot from my Prod when I tested them in wet paper.  Something like them or hybrid slugs that are also supposed to expand more easily than most may give you a bit more pop.  You don't need a lot of penetration so that should still be fine.  But nothing you do is going to eliminate the ability of a bird to glide away - except maybe a good head shot.  But I've shot part of the skull off a bird and it was still looking at me - wasn't going anywhere though.  I don't think they are exactly hard to kill but I have found them hard to make stop immediately.  I've done it but not as often on birds as on squirrels. 

[JungleShooter]

Have you tried polymags or metalmags?Metalmags were the only expanding pellet to expand at all when shot from my Prod when I tested them in wet paper. Something like them or hybrid slugs that are also supposed to expand more easily than most may give you a bit more pop.

➠ Yupp, I collected quite an arsenal of HP when I got this gun — my first .25cal ever: 
• H&N Crow Magnum
• H&N Baracuda Hunter
• H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme
• JSB Polymag
• JSB Hades
• JSB KnockOut

But nothing you do is going to eliminate the ability of a bird to glide away - except maybe a good head shot.  But I've shot part of the skull off a bird and it was still looking at me - wasn't going anywhere though.  I don't think they are exactly hard to kill but I have found them hard to make stop immediately.  I've done it but not as often on birds as on squirrels.

Yes, Jim, that has been my experience also. I'm pretty sure the larger caliber is helping to reduce the number of glide aways some. 
 
➠ I'm just not sure if this advantage alone it is worth to me the extra hassles of this particular .25cal.
• Lower shot count• Very loud at the current 57FPE setting: I need a huge Shogun silencer, and it still makes a cracking gun shot, whereas the .22 P1 at 36FPE doesn't need a silencer.
• Because of the silencer, it's loooong 😞.


Matthias

[triggerfest]

For outdoors shooting with some wind, I definitely prefer the .25 cal.

[Back_Roads]

 I traded off a .25, and immediately replaced it with 5 more within a couple years, I do not shoot them daily, but when I need a little more energy and wind bucking capability they come out to play..25 kept me from buying a .30 for many years LOL

[JungleShooter]

I traded off a .25, and immediately replaced it with 5 more within a couple years.

Thanks for the heads-up, that sounds like a serious problem I might throw myself into if I DO DECIDE to sell this .25cal..... 😱
5 (five!) more!! Wow.

.25 kept me from buying a .30 for many years LOL

Well, I have been a frugal good boy when it comes to caliber choice.
The .177 I stopped using quickly after seeing the difference to a .22.


And I first completed my collection of pretty much all available quality .22cal pellets — before the same buy-one-of-each-to-try-them-out hit me with the new caliber....  However, I have not fallen quite as deep into that rabbit hole — recovery is possible if I sell the .25cal soon.


🔶 The replacement for the .25 — well, yeah, no more messing around after this episode: It's .35cal or bust.
Because I want the pest pigeons to bust. So, I think the Dirty Nive will be the ticket.
Because I have no trust in only .30cal for spectacular hits — after my disappointment with the .25cal shooting hollow point pellets (flying ashtray types) and Hybrid slugs almost at 1000fps at short ranges....

Matthias

[kbstingwing]

I own them all .22, .25 .30, .35, .45, .50 except .177, .177 to small for my big arthritic hands to handle, why do I own all these Calibers? I got them cheap, fixer uppers, leakers, I originally was going to resell them, but I decided to keep most of them, besides I live in Texas, I can hunt just about anything here with them....

[JungleShooter]

I own them all .22, .25 .30, .35, .45, .50 I live in TEXAS, I can hunt just about anything here with them....

TEXAS  🤩

One of the states I could see myself moving to...!

Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖 
Take Germany — that stupidly restricts airguns to 6 FPE (six!)! 😡


➠ So, I consider the US "the PARADISE" for gun lovers —
and Texas would be "the CAPITAL of PARADISE."

Matthias


PS: I have a shread of hope that this .25cal in question might still give me a reason to not sell it. At the end of my range day I could squeeze in a few shots at 200y — and they didn't look so bad.
The Altaros Smooth (49.50gr) bested the JSB Heavies (39.95gr). I need to try this again soon! Maybe this is a gun for extreme long range?  😊

[10Gauge]

Get the .22.  Plink cheap, and never worry about finding ammo.  There is something to be said about the diameter of a pellet but I hunt with a .177 and it’s deadly.

But you could keep the .25 and get a .22 and a .30 because you are an enthusiast and hobbies never make sense financially or otherwise lol.

If you think they are free in Texas, check out Arizona.  IMO that’s the best pro gun state in the USA.

[Habanero69er]

Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖

Disarm your population & they’re easier to control. Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage.  God bless America! 🇺🇸

[10Gauge]

Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖

Disarm your population & they’re easier to control. Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage.  God bless America! 🇺🇸

Grateful 🙏

[ALWIII]

Those JSB MKII 33.95gr blew open a couple of squirrels at 75 yards the last time I used my .25 cal.  tuned to 55 FPE. It was kinda grewsome and shocking to see. 

Keith,

thanks for the comment. 👍🏼

I'm not sure what you found that looked gruesome and shocking because your projectile "blew open" the squirrels. 
 

Let's compare:   ● Your .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit them critters with about 680fps (35FPE) — that's pretty slow and low-ish in power. ➠ You got achieved a high level of destruction. ✅ 
➠ vs. ➠
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
● My .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit my 26-yard pigeons with about 850fps (55FPE). ➠ Yet I just made a couple of holes into them — no massive destruction like what you achieved.... ⛔

WHY is that? I'm trying to understand! 👍🏼

Matthias

  Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit. Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.

[JungleShooter]

"Disarm your population & they’re easier to control." Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage. 
God bless America! 🇺🇸

Yes, may God bless America!! ⭐⭐⭐

[JungleShooter]

Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.

Alton,

that is a very interesting suggestion!

My thinking behind the high velocities was this:

In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces — I need a large area of impact.

➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.

➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.

➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.


Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?

Thanks,Matthias

[10Gauge]

A lot of weird stuff can happen on impact with a animal.  Generally, the faster a projectile moves, the more damage it does.  Everything else being equal, a projectile does a lot more damage at 850 fps vs 650 fps.  It doesn’t just zip through with less damage.  But sometimes crazy stuff happens that can’t be explained.  But i think it’s because tissue is high in fluid content.

Empty plastic bottles and aluminum cans are different, you can pierce them with enough velocity without a dent. 

A full water bottle is more telling.  The faster you hit it the more spectacular the result.

[ALWIII]

Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.

Alton,

that is a very interesting suggestion!

My thinking behind the high velocities was this:

In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces — I need a large area of impact.

➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.

➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.

➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.


Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?

Thanks,Matthias

  It limits over penetration (Leaving more of the available energy in the target). I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.) that have enough drag to average around 650 fps from my Benjamin, and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. I suspect pellet lead expands at lower velocities than regular firearm ammo. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.

 As a general rule, velocity increases the energy potential, but bullets are different than pellets. With bullets greater velocity=more hydro shock and its attendant damage. Pellet rifles don't usually produce those energy levels. At the same velocity and caliber, a bullet would likely contain a lot more mass and add much to the energy. That's why I thought dumping more energy into the target, even with less velocity, might work. If your pellets exit the pigeon at 750 fps they're leaving about 12 ft/lbs in the bird. This is my theory, and I am not a ballistics expert, but I don't have any pigeons to test it on, so.....

[JungleShooter]

I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.), and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.

You are spot on with distinguishing firearms rifle ammo from airgun ammo — no hydrostatic shock at such low velocities. 👍🏼

I'd love to hear how you achieved expansion with the Crow Magnums and the Hybrids at low velocities:

➊ What medium did you shoot them into? 10% Ballistic gel — a squirrel — a water bottle?

➋ How much expansion did you get? Did a .25cal projectile with 0.25" diameter expand to 0.31" diameter = an increase of only 25%?
Or what was it? 😊

Matthias

[drift shooter]

Search You Tube for squirrel hunting .22 vs .25 comparison on Teds Holdover . Pretty telling results , this is why I got a .25 for hunting .