💢 Talk me into KEEPING a .25cal PCP! — What does .25cal do that .22cal can't?

[wyotrap]

Using my Diana 54 in .22 and my marauder .25 I honestly don’t see a lot of difference when shooting rabbits, squirrels etc. both have pass through shots. The Diana hunting rabbits jump straight up in the air 3-5’ and land dead. I think if I was shooting slugs out of a .22 vs a .25 there may be more noticeable differences. The ability to buck the wind from a heavier slug etc…but realistically, I don’t see a huge difference.

The .25 does make a unique “smack” sound when it hits small game though.

I never intentionally set out to own a .25 pcp. I got mine during covid shortages on everything and found this one available used. I shoot it less than I’d like because the cheap pellet options aren’t so cheap…I still may try converting it to .22

[Van]

 I agree that the .25 cal pellets have a unique smack sound on small game.  I bought all the .25cal Baracuda Hunter Extremes 28g that the local Gander Outdoors marked down to $8 ea when they stopped selling firearms. I still have 12 tins so that will last me a while.  They fully open up at 800fps and a solid hit in the kill zone drops the target instantly. Both of my .25cals are built on Disco tubes with the power valves that Magnum Airpower used to sell.  The valves are not made from a regular Disco valve but are custom built for more volume and use a Marauder exhaust valve stem. You get less shots with them but more power for a hunting gun in the larger calibers. With the stronger valve mounting screws they can be filled up to 3000psi.

[Mr.P]

Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.

Alton,

that is a very interesting suggestion!

My thinking behind the high velocities was this:

In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces — I need a large area of impact.

➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.

➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.

➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.


Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?

Thanks,Matthias

In my experience if I shoot at high velocity with any caliber at a metal can it makes a small hole with little fuss.  If I shoot that same can with a low powered .177 that doesn't pass through it ends up flipping the can through the air making a huge dent and causing something that might be more akin to what you are hoping for your pigeons.   

The shape of the pellet doesn't matter in this case - what matters is that all of its energy is dumped into the can and in this case a lower energy pellet dumps more energy into the can than the high energy that zip through.  If I want to get the spectacular affect with the higher power I have to hit the can at a place where it is tough enough to slow the bullet a bit (like hitting the bottom of the can edge on)

 I'm definitely not trying to convince you to keep any particular .25 gun in spite of this thread title.   it sounds like you don't like the gun itself if I read this right although I haven't read it all that carefully. 

[triggertreat]

The bigger the chunk of lead, the less likely the run-offs and fly-offs will be.  This has been my experience, anyway.  I started out with .22, then moved up to .25 and then to .30 for this very reason when trying to shoot squirrels under a feeder at 85 yards from a deer stand.  Many ran off with .22.  A lot less with .25 and practically none with .30.  This is the very reason I moved up in caliber.  Near fifty squirrels can eat a lot of corn each day and I wanted to thin them out and cook some up back at camp.

[10Gauge]

Hard targets at high velocity it zips through, sure.  Tissue is the exact opposite.

The most spectacular wounding you will ever see is from the fastest projectile.  This is not a new phenomenon.

In the airgun world it is a misconception because most of the time we are comparing small, and or light, and fast to bigger, heavier, but slower.

Same projectiles, same size and weight, the faster one does the most damage.  Exceptions are rare but they happen.

Bones maybe an exception, being hard.

[ALWIII]

I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.), and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.

You are spot on with distinguishing firearms rifle ammo from airgun ammo — no hydrostatic shock at such low velocities. 👍🏼

I'd love to hear how you achieved expansion with the Crow Magnums and the Hybrids at low velocities:

➊ What medium did you shoot them into? 10% Ballistic gel — a squirrel — a water bottle?

➋ How much expansion did you get? Did a .25cal projectile with 0.25" diameter expand to 0.31" diameter = an increase of only 25%?
Or what was it? 😊

Matthias

  Mostly water bottles, filled with the cap on tight. The Crow Magnums are fired from a Benjamin NP XL with a few minor mods. I came up with a 699 fps average, but that may have been before I upgraded the Nitro Piston. I'll work on uploading the pictures again, as I can't find the pellets to measure them. The Crow Magnums seem to expand pretty easily. I'm not getting any kind of spectacular 100% expansion, just a nice spread of the pellet's head. Purely anecdotal, but the H&N Hornets just go right through a full gallon jug, leaving two equal sized holes at just under 850 fps. My thinking, (loosely defined. LOL) is the Hornet is taking enough energy to pierce the second jug wall and disappear, so the whole 35 ft/lbs isn't dumped in to the target. The Crow Magnum hits the second jug wall, but doesn't penetrate, therefore, leaving all 29 ft/lbs in the target medium. Less potential energy but more kinetic energy imparted on impact.

[10Gauge]

I agree crow magnums are spectacular if your gun likes them.  I haven’t seen a perfect mushroom out of them or any pellet, but they definitely do more damage than a dome pellet at close range.

[JungleShooter]

THANK YOU for sharing your advice to my OP about if a .25cal can make spectacular kills on pigeons.
Thanks for answering my somewhat detailed questions after that.

I appreciate the help I can get here at GTA!  😃



🟠 I have had two more outings with the gun — two more chances for the gun to convince me to keep it.... 😉
Same quarry — same power — but a few more projectiles — and scope cam slo-mo recording to make sure I see what's happening.


🟠 My report:  Nothing new — nothing spectacular. Dead is dead. And that's literally the end of it (if it were not for what happened at the end of the outing....😊)

Though, I admit, a buddy of mine with a 19FPE .22 PCP had a harder time anchoring those pesky pests pigeons. 👍🏼⫐ His puny 13.43gr JSB RS (.22cal) crawled at 800fps for a measly 19FPE.
vs.
ᗝ My mighty 39.95gr JSB Heavy (.25cal) soared at 914fps — for a meat-grinding 63FPE — more than 3 times his power.

➠ Like many ouf you suggested, higher power usually gives a higher anchoring quota.  🤷🏻‍♂️


🟠 However, at the end — it was already dark — I set up my shooting table at one end of the property, and measured 185m = 202y to the other end.
And that's were a little bit of magic happened. ⭐
(I'm waiting to get my target poster back to show you a photo so you can evaluate it.)

➠ Follow-up is coming soon. 👍🏼

Matthias

[wyotrap]

Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.

Alton,

that is a very interesting suggestion!

My thinking behind the high velocities was this:

In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces — I need a large area of impact.

➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.

➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.

➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.


Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?

Thanks,Matthias

In my experience if I shoot at high velocity with any caliber at a metal can it makes a small hole with little fuss.  If I shoot that same can with a low powered .177 that doesn't pass through it ends up flipping the can through the air making a huge dent and causing something that might be more akin to what you are hoping for your pigeons.   

The shape of the pellet doesn't matter in this case - what matters is that all of its energy is dumped into the can and in this case a lower energy pellet dumps more energy into the can than the high energy that zip through.  If I want to get the spectacular affect with the higher power I have to hit the can at a place where it is tough enough to slow the bullet a bit (like hitting the bottom of the can edge on)

 I'm definitely not trying to convince you to keep any particular .25 gun in spite of this thread title.   it sounds like you don't like the gun itself if I read this right although I haven't read it all that carefully.

It’s my understanding which I am sure is imperfect, that at air rifle velocities there really isn’t a huge difference based on projectile shape. We are much more looking at energy transfer. Some firearm projectiles like a .17 hmr practically explode when they hit, but those are unattainable speeds for air powered weapons. Airguns are a lot more like black powder rifles, or archery only without cutting broad heads-to my thinking anyway.

They shoot relatively slow, and the goal is to “poke a hole in something important” aka the kill zone. They aren’t really killing the same way a modern powder burner does.

My 17HMR will not shoot through both sides of a coffee can filled with water -with standard polymer tipped ammo, the bullet basically explodes transferring all it’s energy to the water-it’s a nasty little cartridge, airguns just aren’t working at those energy levels .

[Back_Roads]

 Sometimes low power is the only way, check these modest powered  rigs out.

[avator]

LOL... Move over NOTOS.. except they are comparing a $1200 gun to a $275 gun.. speaks volumes to the NOTOS for me.
The Vixen is a sweet gun but miles out of my price range.

[triggertreat]

I wanna say the Prod was dropping them much better, much cheaper.