Irrelevant, really.... The theory is for non-deforming projectiles....Bob
Now, if we could plot the volume of combined temporary and permanent cavity, and plot that against FPE; I predict a straight line....
Stan, by now, I am disconsidering the hide (as a 'no problem'). If I was in the game about 25 years ago, among other things, I was also a pig farmer .. Besides several tests, I would have made a table with the weights and thicknesses of the forehead bones. Dreams out, I agree with you - the main task seems to be about the .. shear strenght.In my current 'urban environment', there are not pig heads available. I tried with cattle leg bones using some 'promising' pellets (domed/heavier or with the harder heads) at short distance (2 yards?); not 100% perpendicular due the ricochets, but 'enough' angle. You may consider zero 'damage' and all became flat flowers of lead. Bryan, Manny and his big bores don't have this kind of problem.. The challenge is when you start thinking about the actual limit to be, or not to be .. undergunned. By now, until an eventual better idea .. I'm with you, and placing my bets on the JSB Straton Jumbo Monster 25 gr (just a little bit "pointed").
Interesting data manipulation, Stan.Now, if we could plot the volume of combined temporary and permanent cavity, and plot that against FPE; I predict a straight line....Ballistic gel snaps back, so there is no way to capture the temporary cavity; except in 2D via high speed video. Soap and clay might be useful here because their cavities do not collapse (unless you blow up the block), but how to measure the volume of the cavity? Perhaps by casting epoxy or plaster of paris into it.
Quote from: mpbby on October 22, 2018, 06:47:12 PMStan, by now, I am disconsidering the hide (as a 'no problem'). If I was in the game about 25 years ago, among other things, I was also a pig farmer .. Besides several tests, I would have made a table with the weights and thicknesses of the forehead bones. Dreams out, I agree with you - the main task seems to be about the .. shear strenght.In my current 'urban environment', there are not pig heads available. I tried with cattle leg bones using some 'promising' pellets (domed/heavier or with the harder heads) at short distance (2 yards?); not 100% perpendicular due the ricochets, but 'enough' angle. You may consider zero 'damage' and all became flat flowers of lead. Bryan, Manny and his big bores don't have this kind of problem.. The challenge is when you start thinking about the actual limit to be, or not to be .. undergunned. By now, until an eventual better idea .. I'm with you, and placing my bets on the JSB Straton Jumbo Monster 25 gr (just a little bit "pointed").Manny hasn't always used big bores. He has been killing pigs with .22 and .25 air rifles longer than most of us have been serious about air guns in general. Maybe you should look back into the archives, or just ask him. From what I have seen in the hunting gate, heavy dome pellets are the clear winner on hogs with a typical small bore airgun. In my own experience hunting small game, heavy domes still win. And if you take the time to search the googles, people have figured out a very long time ago, within a given caliber, the heaviest projectile penetrates the best. Blackpowder, smokeless powder, air power- doesn't matter. Until you push it so fast that the bullet comes apart, then you have to use harder material. But that is the way it is. Heavy, accurate, domes- that is your common money maker. Other than a slug, cylinder, or roundball. But dome diabolos are more common, more likely to find one your gun shoots straight...
Quote from: Bryan H. on October 22, 2018, 11:08:40 PMQuote from: mpbby on October 22, 2018, 06:47:12 PMStan, by now, I am disconsidering the hide (as a 'no problem'). If I was in the game about 25 years ago, among other things, I was also a pig farmer .. Besides several tests, I would have made a table with the weights and thicknesses of the forehead bones. Dreams out, I agree with you - the main task seems to be about the .. shear strenght.In my current 'urban environment', there are not pig heads available. I tried with cattle leg bones using some 'promising' pellets (domed/heavier or with the harder heads) at short distance (2 yards?); not 100% perpendicular due the ricochets, but 'enough' angle. You may consider zero 'damage' and all became flat flowers of lead. Bryan, Manny and his big bores don't have this kind of problem.. The challenge is when you start thinking about the actual limit to be, or not to be .. undergunned. By now, until an eventual better idea .. I'm with you, and placing my bets on the JSB Straton Jumbo Monster 25 gr (just a little bit "pointed").Manny hasn't always used big bores. He has been killing pigs with .22 and .25 air rifles longer than most of us have been serious about air guns in general. Maybe you should look back into the archives, or just ask him. From what I have seen in the hunting gate, heavy dome pellets are the clear winner on hogs with a typical small bore airgun. In my own experience hunting small game, heavy domes still win. And if you take the time to search the googles, people have figured out a very long time ago, within a given caliber, the heaviest projectile penetrates the best. Blackpowder, smokeless powder, air power- doesn't matter. Until you push it so fast that the bullet comes apart, then you have to use harder material. But that is the way it is. Heavy, accurate, domes- that is your common money maker. Other than a slug, cylinder, or roundball. But dome diabolos are more common, more likely to find one your gun shoots straight...Ok wait. I've read over this before, but somehow this information is only starting to hit me now. So a heavier pellet in the same caliber, despite having less FPE, will penetrate better? For example: a CPUM Dome at 14.3 at ~ 28FPE will be out-penetrated by say an ~23-24FPE Baracuda Match 21gr? I seem to have been under the impression that my FPE will be most beneficial to breaking through that hog skull, i.e. the higher the better. Have I been doing it wrong all along?
I gotta quit clicking on this thread... so tempting...
Quote from: Bryan H. on December 02, 2018, 08:06:33 PMI gotta quit clicking on this thread... so tempting...Bryan, don't we love this click bait?!
Quote from: VaporTrail on December 02, 2018, 07:18:17 PMQuote from: Bryan H. on October 22, 2018, 11:08:40 PMQuote from: mpbby on October 22, 2018, 06:47:12 PMStan, by now, I am disconsidering the hide (as a 'no problem'). If I was in the game about 25 years ago, among other things, I was also a pig farmer .. Besides several tests, I would have made a table with the weights and thicknesses of the forehead bones. Dreams out, I agree with you - the main task seems to be about the .. shear strenght.In my current 'urban environment', there are not pig heads available. I tried with cattle leg bones using some 'promising' pellets (domed/heavier or with the harder heads) at short distance (2 yards?); not 100% perpendicular due the ricochets, but 'enough' angle. You may consider zero 'damage' and all became flat flowers of lead. Bryan, Manny and his big bores don't have this kind of problem.. The challenge is when you start thinking about the actual limit to be, or not to be .. undergunned. By now, until an eventual better idea .. I'm with you, and placing my bets on the JSB Straton Jumbo Monster 25 gr (just a little bit "pointed").Manny hasn't always used big bores. He has been killing pigs with .22 and .25 air rifles longer than most of us have been serious about air guns in general. Maybe you should look back into the archives, or just ask him. From what I have seen in the hunting gate, heavy dome pellets are the clear winner on hogs with a typical small bore airgun. In my own experience hunting small game, heavy domes still win. And if you take the time to search the googles, people have figured out a very long time ago, within a given caliber, the heaviest projectile penetrates the best. Blackpowder, smokeless powder, air power- doesn't matter. Until you push it so fast that the bullet comes apart, then you have to use harder material. But that is the way it is. Heavy, accurate, domes- that is your common money maker. Other than a slug, cylinder, or roundball. But dome diabolos are more common, more likely to find one your gun shoots straight...Ok wait. I've read over this before, but somehow this information is only starting to hit me now. So a heavier pellet in the same caliber, despite having less FPE, will penetrate better? For example: a CPUM Dome at 14.3 at ~ 28FPE will be out-penetrated by say an ~23-24FPE Baracuda Match 21gr? I seem to have been under the impression that my FPE will be most beneficial to breaking through that hog skull, i.e. the higher the better. Have I been doing it wrong all along? Not really. Just a couple of things to remember:Penetration matters more as your game gets bigger. Energy is still the figure we usually refer to, in order to determine if you have enough gun.Heavy typicallypenetrates better than light, for a given caliber, at the same energy level. Of course the shape of the ammo also makes a difference. Naturally, that means you can have a little less energy and still equal to or better penetration with a heavy for caliber round.Penetration isn't everything. But given a choice, I'd rather have an exit. Especially with small bore airguns. 2 holes are better than one, and exit wounds usually bleed better than entrance wounds. More bleeding means a animal expires faster, suffers less.Yeah, a bigger hole also bleeds better than a smaller one. But if you really wanna argue wound channel, well, .177 x2 is bigger than .22 x1. And again, exits bleed better than a entrance wound. Usually bigger coming out as well. Especially considering airgun power levels, ammo generally retains weight except a few designs.Still, given a choice between 10 fpe and 10.5 grains vs 15 fpe at 7.9 grains, I'll take the higher energy level.The thing is, with a springer a heavy pellet may deliver 5% less energy give or take. We are talking 13 fpe vs 14-14.5 fpe. The 10.5 grain will outpenetrate!You can go back and forth on this all day. At the end of the day, 3 things still hold true, that most of us can agree on:1. We usualy look at energy levels and accuracy to determine if a gun is adequate for hunting.2. Heavier ammo generally penetrates better than lighter ammo.3. Pneumatics generally make more energy and momentum with heavier pellets. Exception being, ammo with more friction in the bore (harder, maybe head size,etc.) Springers usually make less energy with heavier pellets.Regardless, it is kinda making a big deal out of nothing. I would not hesitate to make a headshot on a raccoon, possum, armadillo, etc with any pellet design inside of my comfortable range with a mid powered springer even with a wadcutter. .22 or .177. Talking 25 yards give or take.The Sheridan? Especially a Steroid Streak... whatever is accurate is going to get the job done, on anything a reasonable airgunner would try.I gotta quit clicking on this thread... so tempting...