GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: PCPhack on February 14, 2019, 01:04:54 PM
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I have a new to me early production .30 Flex. It's time to fix her up.
To be performed
- Deep cleaning Done
- Rusted hardware replacement Done
- Regulation addition Done
- Valve upgrade Done
- Bottle upgrade - 350cc CF bottle Done
- Tensioner and moderator update and decibel comparison Done
- Air tube (plenum) extension testing Done
- NSA and Mr. HP slug grouping test
Upon receiving it, I filled the tank to 3000 and shot around 6 times. The pressure was down to 2000, so out of tune (though to be dair a few hundred PSI was just the tank cooling). The next day, all pressure was gone, so it also leaks. The barrel is dirty, but I am glad, as there is also some screw hardware rust, so lots of lead fouling has probably helped protect the bore of the barrel since there has been some moisture exposure. The tank has a chip, so will replace it for safety and destroy the old one.
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Original hammer and valve
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Barrel port could use some smoothing. I will re-examine this with the barrel tensioner on and single grub screw loose to see if that lip disappears.
Update: This dissappeared after cleaning everything and removing an old piece of oring out from behind the barrel retention clip washer. I will not touch this port.
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The first order of business was the barrel cleaning, as I was concerned about the bore. I saw some bumps near the choke, but they turned out to be just lead deposits. After a very thorough cleaning with a brass brush and about 30 fp10 soaked patches they came out completely, and the barrel is shiny. I don't see any pits either. The crown has no defects. Whew.
The outside of the barrel had a few small surface rust marks, but these came right out with 0000 steel wool and balistol for polish.
Before and after pictures.
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Breech and bolt had quite some gunk. An alcohol bath and cheap toothbrushes have them ready.
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Look what's hiding in my box of parts. Both new.
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Someone asked me how bad the chip in the old tank was. Here are two shots.
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Fairly significant nick in that tank. Hit me up in PM and we will see what we can work out. Given it's small size, it can likely be salvaged.
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Nice work on everything thus far. Will be following your progress. How long is the barrel? Looks longer than standard just judging by the picture.
Thanks,
Chris
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The barrel is 17 inches and is a .30. It looks long as the early Flex had a long moderator the same diametwr as the shroud bedore it, making it look long.
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The bottom rail supoort rods are ready. These were fun to refresh with the drill press and oil soaked wet/dry 320 grit paper.
Before and after
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Fairly significant nick in that tank. Hit me up in PM and we will see what we can work out. Given it's small size, it can likely be salvaged.
I really don't think it is a good idea.
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Fairly significant nick in that tank. Hit me up in PM and we will see what we can work out. Given it's small size, it can likely be salvaged.
I really don't think it is a good idea.
drill a hole in it and throw it away
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You know you have a dark side problem when you have extra long alloy steel bolts that are the exact ones a Flex or Marauder with custom breech riser needs in your parts. Lol.
New ones on the bottom.
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Fairly significant nick in that tank. Hit me up in PM and we will see what we can work out. Given it's small size, it can likely be salvaged.
I really don't think it is a good idea.
drill a hole in it and throw it away
I was thinking to shoot it with the Flex. Hehe
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With my old shoebox using silicon oil, an my lubing with silicone 10 wt for bullets, the TJ's barrels have never had a spec of rust on them. Seems the silicone fills the shroud with some mist, the barrels always have a thin layer of silicone waterproofing.
For pellets, I use FP-10 Same results! 8)
Knife
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Michael, I use the same, so going forward, this rifle won't be at risk ever again.
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The tube was plenty nasty inside and out. Now clean and was even able to remove 2 surface rust spots without ruining the black finish.
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Thanks Ballistol. Stock is clean.
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Heart transplant time! Wow, whoever made this even signed it. ;)
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Throat view. Original Flex valve versus a JSAR SS. This is the large port version. Yes, I know it is going to blast open so easy, that there will be much hammer spring weakening needed. I will also close down the jet and/or put the stronger return spring in if needed. We will see. I also need to measure the hammer weight as a reference point.
I will stop here for today as all the parts are now clean.
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Bye bye old tank!
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I'm very surprised to see the WAR valve have the same type of lip vale seal that causes so many problems in the Rainstorm at higher powers. I like the new one you show much much better!
A shame you had to had t destroy the bottle. I could have had it checked, and possibly repaired and tested.
If you have any FP-10 around, put a full wax job on the barrel, and then a very light coat of the FP-10 on it. No move rusty spots. Flitz makes a good wax just for gun barrels. However any good paste wax without polishing it can work.
Knife
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Thanks for the wax tip Michael. I ordered some of that to try.
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Old vs new hammer.
I decided to go with a MDS hammer. I am aware that WAR tried a MDS one for a while, but it would drag sometimes, so they went back to a metal one, though lighter than this original metal one as the newer balanced valves don't need such a heavy hammer and are more efficient with a lighter one. Note that this MDS hammer is not a WAR one though, and I have as well ball honed the cylinder to an ultra smooth finish. I want to see if I can use this through the seasons without any drag issues.
Another note here is that I have loktited the striker in this position to make the hammer as long as a WAR one. This is necessary, as the Timney trigger is not like a Marauder one where the hammer can push the sear back down even if it slides fully in front of it. The Timney one would have to have the trigger held to cock it and allow the hammer back over the top. By keeping my hammer long enough, the Timney trigger will not get hung, as even with the hammer fully forward, its body is still over the sear holding it down.
Total weight as shown plus the hammer retention bolt and and aluminum spacer washer in the next post is 52.2 grams.
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Hammer springs!
Original WAR one on the left.
The middle one could be used, but doesn't quite allow free flight.
The right one seems about right.
We will see tonight.
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Hammer cap screws. My new one is in the left. I had made up several of these when making a Marauder with custom riser. It is a little longer than the war setup, but needs to be because it goes through the MDS before hitting brass underneath.
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I’m starting to wonder where this rifle was in a previous life . Good work bringing it back from the brink .
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Nice work getting it cleaned all up . I'd like to find myself a project like you got here looks like fun
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Good Stuff, an watching! ;)
Knife
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I put the rifle together last night but stopped as I found the MDS hammer sliding a bit too snug after I put its retaining cap screw in. The compression against the MDS shell must deform it ever so slightly as it was more free without the bolt. I will take it back out and drill out the plastic there, so that the bolt spacer can sit directly against brass the brass core. Hopefully this is enough. Edit: This appears to be part of it, but also I honed the tube a bit more at the back. I will redo this further in. I did hone all the way to the valve, but as I didn't want to go beyond that, I obviously didn't spend enough time down in there, so just need a bit more. I am using a 400 grit hone, so it removes very little.
I also ordered some Mr. Hollowpoint and Nielsen Specialty Ammo slugs in .30 (.303) to try. The barrel is choked for pellets, but I still want to try it.
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Regarding finish
There are a few scratches on aluminum that I want to fix. Can someone report how well the Birchwood Casey black aluminum repair works? They have a chemical that will either blacken or turn brown any raw aluminum. Then if that is not enough, they have a paint marker pen for final touch ups. I am open to other suggestions as well.
I have had a thought to camo it, as I like the look on the ones Bullfrog did, but for now I will touch up the black aluminum.
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The B.C. alu.black works fairly well. I recently picked up a black paint pen from Fastenal It works well, but you have to use something like a q-tip shaft to blend it,as it goes on thick and would stand proud of anything it is applied to.
Knife
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David,
Good job on picking on the Flex, I was very interested in it as well when it popped in the GTA classified gate. I see that is in good hands and will have a better life thanks to you. It just needs some elbow grease, a very thorough cleaning and some o-rings like a lot of used guns out there.
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Michael, ok thanks. I ordered the BC aluminum repair and also their paint pen to try. I will go lightly with it and see how it goes.
Thanks Randy. I got a great price and hopefully a real keeper once I'm done. With a few scratches already under its belt, I won't have to baby it wanting to avoid that first one. ;D
I didn't work on it any today. Maybe tomorrow.
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Hammer updated.
I countersunk the MDS plastic so that the aluminum spacer could hit the brass underneath. Here it is put together with that longer aluminum spacer from my earlier post. I just needed to switch to a 3/8 cap screw instead of 1/2, so that it wouldn't protrude into the center spring cavity area.
I will still do a slight rehone on the tube, but this already slides better since the screw isn't deforming the MDS anymore.
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It will help with deformation a lot! Well Done! 8)
Man I would love to get my hand one of these. These and the AAA's are for me "The Holy Grail". ;)
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PCPShack ..... Your INBOX is full.
So. I'll just post my inquire here ...
The old WAR valve ... If you are no longer going to be using it ... I would be ;)
Just LMK and we can discuss
Scott
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Ah Scott. I would have given it to you, but I just yesterday promised it to someone with a stock Marauder valve. Seeing as how they let me hunt their lease many times at no charge, it's the least I can do.
Oh, and thanks for the inbox tip. I didn't even realize it was full.
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Ok, the Flex is going together now. I finished the slight rehoning and cleaned it all out again (honing leaves a huge mess of black gunk in the tube and all orifices). Then I gave the honed area a wipe down with Balistol. The powerplant is all in and ready. The hammer slides very smoothly now. I even did a test with just the tube and hammer where I put the tube in the deep freeze (-5 F) and after 20 minutes took the warm hammer from my pocket and did a slide test with the tube. It was still silky smooth, so I don't see how I will ever have any drag issues unless MDS somehow starts to expand a lot more over 98 degrees. I guess I could have heated the hammer also, but I was satisfied already.
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Tune time!
Free flight ends around 4 turns from the spring fully in.
I like to start off by turning the spring all the way in and seeing what it will do.
Setup:
-Flex .30, 17" barrel
-350cc bottle
-Regular bottle block, no regulator (that will come later)
-JSAR big port valve, factory jet, weaker of the 2 JSAR return springs (from their tuning kit)
-Random Marauder spring from my box of parts (I think it might be the spring from a TSS kit but not sure
-MDS hammer per my earlier pictures
Full spring at 3020 psi (digital gauge) with a 44.75 (measured 45.1) yielded 946 fps.
Now backing the spring out to just where free flight ends. Stay tuned.
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This is 4 turns out from full hammer spring. I could see already that I should back out half a turn more, but went ahead and ran a respectable number of shots. This valve is brand new and I just deep cleaned the barrel, so do not mind some break-in.
Setup:
-Flex .30, 17" barrel
-350cc bottle
-Regular bottle block, no regulator (that will come later)
-JSAR big port valve, factory jet, weaker of the 2 JSAR return springs (from their tuning kit)
-Random Marauder spring from my box of parts (I think it might be the spring from a TSS kit but not sure
-MDS hammer per my earlier pictures
44.75gr JSB PSI FPS
Start 3027 881
2997 893
2960 876
2927 890
2892 881
2860 872
2830 883
2796 893
2760 882
2728 881
2695 899
2657 882
2625 868
2597 868
2568 868
2537 868
2506 863
2478 872
2447 868
End 2417
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I wanted to also note that cocking it is SO easy with this lighter spring and a balanced valve, compared to the stock Flex spring. I knew it would be, as my other rifles are the same, but it is always shocking to go back and see what a heavy spring is like.
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Nice to have 90fpe gun if you want it ;) detune for accuracy and lookout whatever is in your sights!
Congrats :D
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Decibel Test.
Conditions:
Meter on max hold
5 shots each
No pellet
Tethered to bottle regulator at 2600 PSI
Enclosed shop
Meter approximately 1 foot to left of gun at floor level facing toward far wall (able to pickup reflected shot sound)
Factory (early original Flex) moderator: 95 dBA
DonnFl Emperor v2: 89.4 dBA
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This same test as above without any moderator gives me 98.1 dBA, though note that I still had the meter on low range, where 100 is the maximum, so it may report higher on hi range.
I want to repeat this test in an open area, rather than the shop. I have done enough sound testing to know how easily the numbers can change, even just in changing the moderator out and slight position differences can impact it.
Anyway, to human ears it is obviously much quieter with the moderator. The Emperor has less of a sharp report, than the original Flex moderator. It should anyway, look how much wider it is!
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When I put the Emperor LDC on my Slayer I can hear the ping of the air tube when it is shot, shooting without the Emperor on it I don't hear the ping. That says a lot in my book. This is a hunting gun and totally quiet isn't what I was looking either. Just some shooting places need to be quieter than others to not draw unwanted attn.
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Randy, I agree. I mainly like them on since it's easier on the ears without needing extra protection. Both moderators perform well, but I will probably use the Emperor more.
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You may want to look into Donny’s Shogun model. I run a Shogun on my Flex with the 17 inch barrel and its very effective without the large size of the Emperor. The Emperor is honking huge. I run my Emperor on my high power Flex with the Cothran valve and 24” barrel. The gun moves so much air it needs that extra volume in the moderator.
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Travis, is that Shogun the one you have on yours with the camo job and the bottle regulator drop block? If so, I might just pick one up. I have a regulator drop block also, as well as a spare 500cc tank. I didn't try it, but it looks like the Emperor will not fit with the longer bottle. If that is the Shogun in your picture, then I see that combo in fact works.
Impressive camo job, by the way.
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Yep, that is a Shogun in that pic after I camoed my gun. Its the only moderator I use now on the short Flex.
I was surprised what a couple of cans of spraypaint and a stencil could do.
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Thanks Travis. 1 Shogun on order. I also have a spare AR folding stock adapter that I will add. I had to laugh when I looked back at your camo picture yesterday and saw that you had one too. LOL. I will be drilling a hole in the front portion of mine, so that I can adjust the hammer spring through the hole without removing it. You probably already did that too. ;D ;)
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I had a nice Shogun. :( Shroud failed and ruined it.
Good looking LDC! ;)
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Shroud failed? Like...you shot your shroud off, or what?
I have the Emperor for heavy breather airguns, like Travis, but like that I will be able to use the Shogun one with the short barrel, but long 500cc tank. That should allow me 60+ shots even with a 2500 PSI set point on a regulator.
Travis, did you ever experiment with slugs from the choked 17 inch barrel? I am not really interested in heavier weight as much as a better BC.
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Instead of drilling out my folding stock adapter, I switched over to a different design; my current folding adapter is a Chinese clone of the LAW adapter courtesy Aliexpress. The inside is already open for access to the hammer spring by just folding the stock.
I did some testing with slugs on the short gun. Back before I regulated it or was using the Cobra valve or light hammer, I could make 110 fpe with 60 grain BBTs with decent accuracy with Gen 1 WAR parts. After the upgrades, the gun really doesn’t like being anything more than a 80 or 90 fpe gun with that barrel length, and I run it at 74fpe for Polymags. It shoots some of the light swaged bullets well. I know I tested the Rat Snipers, I cannot remember if I tested the Neilsens.
I can tell you one very odd quirk of both my Flexes, even though they have different twist rates. They shoot Polymags well to about 860 or 870fps or so, then above that they spray them. If you want to use Polymags, you want to stay under 80fpe. Its a blessing in disguise. They’ll penetrate deeper and act more like a slug if you shoot them slower. If you shoot them fast they blow up without deep penetration. Not a problem on squirrel but a big problem on varmint sized game.
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The threads failed int h factory shroud, allowing he LDC to lightly tip down, a 60 gr bullet really did a mess inside of the shroud as it was now misaligned. Such a shame. Nice unit!
Neil Clague is cutting new threads in the shroud for me now. I am testing one of Neil's new Top Secret, Hush/Hush LDC's. Man, talk about quiet!
Knife
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couple things about the aluma-black...
first.. IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. really clean. my epxericence has been if its dirty at all (even yer fingerprint) it wont color as deep as it should. Ive also had better luck with it by heating the metal somewhat then applying it.......
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couple things about the aluma-black...
first.. IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. really clean. my epxericence has been if its dirty at all (even yer fingerprint) it wont color as deep as it should. Ive also had better luck with it by heating the metal somewhat then applying it.......
Yep, I usually use 99% pure alc. to clean it. It has to be signed for now days, but I have to have it in the shop.
Knife
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Ok, good to know. I do have 99% alcohol, but only use it when I can't get away with the more easily sourced 90%.
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OK, I have 2 WAR bottle regulators and neither one will thread on the tube without becoming excessively tight after 1 turn. This is confirmed with the Flex air tube as well as 2 spare Marauder tubes. In my last custom rifle to use one, I had to deepen the tube threads for it to screw on. I had hoped to avoid this with the Flex. I did order a tap/die pair, so that I can fix these both, but it will delay my regulator addition. >:(
Update: I will have an adjustable 1-1/8 x 20 tpi die in hand by Friday to fix both of my regulator threads. Then they will fit on any Flex or Marauder tube properly.
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I’m starting to wonder where this rifle was in a previous life . Good work bringing it back from the brink .
I was close to buying this rifle, but something told me that I should steer clear. And so I did, and I am happy I did. :)
Glad that it found a good home with a very capable person to clean it up and fix the warts.
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The threads failed int h factory shroud, allowing he LDC to lightly tip down, a 60 gr bullet really did a mess inside of the shroud as it was now misaligned. Such a shame. Nice unit!
Neil Clague is cutting new threads in the shroud for me now. I am testing one of Neil's new Top Secret, Hush/Hush LDC's. Man, talk about quiet!
Knife
Of all the shrouds I have in my ever growing collection, Neal Clague's have been the quietest and most reliable. I just got a new one for my .257 Texan and it's bloody amazingly quiet, and looks good too. The new design rocks!
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I’m starting to wonder where this rifle was in a previous life . Good work bringing it back from the brink .
I was close to buying this rifle, but something told me that I should steer clear. And so I did, and I am happy I did. :)
Glad that it found a good home with a very capable person to clean it up and fix the warts.
Ah, it's not too bad. Some elbow grease and updated parts will make her like new. I still got a great deal, even after accounting for the updated parts. ;D I am happy because if I had ever bought a Flex new, I wouldn't want to scratch her up. Now I won't worry about it.
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My die arrived, and the thread deepening went perfectly. The regulator will now screw into the air plenum tube. Later tonight I hope to have time to reassemble and tune it. Here it is with one gauge still removed.
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I wanted to get one of those tried to last year they were out the regulator looks nice . Now there not on the war website anymore either
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I wanted to get one of those tried to last year they were out the regulator looks nice . Now there not on the war website anymore either
I bought one from Jim directly more than a year ago. My second one I bought from another gentleman unused, because as you noticed they are not available right now.
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Yeah that's why I went with a standard bottle block and a ninja regulator
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For future reference:
I was on hiatus and did not catch it in time but there was some probability that that damaged tank was repairable.
I worked in a hydro shop at one time and we did a lot of CF bottles, mostly off aircraft which have insanely strict serviceable rules.
On a damaged bottle there are DOT repair standards and mainly they were if a certain depth of fibers were crushed/cut damaged then overall size of the spot was second priority. And a determination as to the way it was caused as certain impacts disqualified a bottle even if it otherwise passed the visual inspection.
From the picture, unless it was a lot deeper than it looked, it was a candidate. Then after the repair, it had to still pass hydro.
What was the repair? Clean off any lose pieces, sand around the damaged spot 3/8 larger all around to break the smooth surface and give the epoxy a grip surface, flush with acetone to degrease then dry and fill over flush with the correct two part clear epoxy so some was not only filling the hole but covering the sanded area! Let sit 24 hours at above 78 degrees to cure. Some surface defects did not even require a hydro after the repair if they were just 'cosmetic'.
Do I recommend anyone try this on any and every old damaged bottle...
NO!!!
When we did this we had the regulations with the Yes/No photos and drawings right before us and measured first to see if it was repairable.
However, before an expensive enough bottle is thrown away, see if there is a local hydro shop that will give you a free estimate and a reasonable repair.
Most of these bottles are not that expensive and are cheaper to replace than repair but I just wanted to point out that small damage does not necessarily make it instantly junk.
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Thanks for that Carl and especially the repair procedure. I was surprised just how thick the outside layer was upon drilling it. I have never drilled out that type of tank before, and you are right, it was really fixable. As they say, hind sight is 20/20, and now I know. Most all of the pressure vessels I have worked with before were pure metal, so when I saw a chip out of it, my mind went to safety.
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I rebuilt the new to me Flex regulator last night with fresh orings and Krytox. I put everything back together and found that I still get the same FPS as I did unregulated with a setpoint around 2300 to 2400. This is about right. I did not run any new strings yet although I did try 4 or 5 and the ES was within a few fps for each one. I will try to run full strings this weekend.
I now have a Shogun moderator for it from FlDonny. It is a perfect match for it. Thanks again Travis for the sizing confirmation.
I also received the slugs that I ordered today. With full pressure and spring, these are giving me 100 FPE. So I will be able to use this Flex pretty well for even hogs with the right shot placement, assuming one of them are accurate.
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Here are some more data points on my tuning.
Slug tune
Regulator @3000 psi, full spring
-NSA 66gr 827 fps
-Mr. Hollowpoint 66gr 835 fps (banding has less friction than NSA)
-Mr. Hollowpoint 55gr 880 fps
-Mr. Hollowpoint 42gr 963 fps
Pellet tune
Regulator @2250 psi, Spring 4 turns out
37 psi per shot from 350cc reservoir gives 60 shots per fill!
ES observed over many shots is less than half a percent! I am not really willing to sit and waste 60 pellets to prove it. I shot about 20 and see the consistency. With the WAR regulator, it is very stable with only a couple of fps variance across shots.
-44.75gr JSB 865 fps
-50gr JSB 836 fps
Turning the spring in 1 more turn (3 turns from max), gives a little more speed for the 50gr pellets with below numbers while using a little more air, but it is not really worth it. That extra 10fps, uses up another 10psi per shot. So if more speed is desired for 50gr, it would likely be more efficient to bump the regulator up a bit, instead of using more spring.
44.75gr 878 fps
50gr 846 fps
Higher efficiency is possible by backing off the spring a bit more than the 4 turns, however I note that ES opens up a bit more (not a lot, just for example from 3 or 4 ES to 8 or so). I have noticed this often with the JSAR valve under regulation, that it will give the very best ES with just a bit more spring than what might be the most efficient. All compromises considered, I believe I have the sweet spot at 4 turns out and 2250psi.
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Sounds like it will be a good shooter good work
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I have spent some time now with the BC Aluminum Black chemical and it is very interesting. On any sharp angles of the annodized aluminum that needed touch up, it worked almost like magic, and any nicks instantly turned black. On flat surface scratches it was a bit more mixed. A few scratches turned black, while a few simply would not, even with extra cleaning and application. For those spots, I gently used the sharp edge of a BC flat black paint marker, and then gently blended it in with a cotton swab. This worked fine for the few remaining scratches. Overall, I am quite satisfied with the results.
This rail piece is an example of scratch on a flat area that the chemical alone would only partially darken, so I also used a paint marker.
The other one is an example of many small nicks all turned perfectly black with just the BC chemical.
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Sounds like it will be a good shooter good work
Thanks Mark. I believe it will be. If I had anything to do over so far, it might be to buy some NSA 50 and 55gr slugs as well. I usually like to shoot slugs up at 900 to 950 fps since I only use those for hunting. The higher speed gives a bit flatter shot, and a little bit less time for anything to react out at 100 yards. I will probably order some of those as well on my next NSA order.
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For fun, I did some testing with a larger plenum by way of a Marauder reservoir extension threaded onto the regulated flex. It yielded a bit more power, and a bit lower set point for maximum power (due to a higher average psi during the shot), but nothing super interesting to report. This is due to my 17 inch barrel, which pretty well taps out for power using the existing plenum space and reasonable pressures. If I had a nice 24 inch slug barrel, it would start to make a significant difference as the existing plenum would not have enough air to keep the average up. It was still fun to see, and practice what would normally just be a Bob math exercise. ;D
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Cleaned up and refurbished the finish on the scope. The BC Aluminum Black actually removed the two prominent scratches! 8)
I do see a few spots I missed now though in better light. More to touch up.
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Why touch up the scope n gun...
Just camo paint it and make it uniquely yours.
It's what I have done with several of my hunting air rifles and like moss or fungus, the look grows on you
;D
The thing about a rattle can paint job is it's easy to clean off and change to different seasons or regions foliage.
Less n less does the ' black rifle' look appeal.
Used 'stone' texture paint in grip areas (sealed that as is required) then use Rust-Oleum Camoflage to free hand ( lots of YouTube vids for tactical and paintball painting techniques) or use stencils of which Amazon has plenty patterns.
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It's a good idea, but I am not really ready to do that to it yet. In the meantime, I wanted to clean it up a bit.
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Yep, gotta get her looking her best before considering new clothes! ;D
I can't see the finish repair on the handle/frame. ??? Which is exactly the point. ;)
Thought you would like the BC alu. Black. Good Stuff! I'm out. GRRRR!!
Will pick up some more when I remember it. (never can remember what I need while still in town. . LOL!!!
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So I did finish the larger plenum testing as I earlier posted. However, something very strange happened. The tube coupler (part of the tube extension) has perfectly fine threading, and yet the very first starting thread in my Flex tube got bent a little. I noticed it as soon as I took off the extension and started to thread the bottle regulator back on. I stopped right there and investigated. The only thing that I can figure out is that the coupler gets screwed in all the way, and where its shoulder snugged up against the tube end, it pressed the thread down a little. This put a damper on my fun until a tap arrived to fix the thread, so as to not ruin my bottle regulator. Here it is after fixing the thread. I am glad I waited and did not force it on as the tube is steel and the regulator block is aluminum, so it certainly would have ruined it. All is well now, and I have yet another airgun related machining tool in my box. ;D
I suppose that I should do a final assembly now, zero the scope, and at last see how she groups with the JSBs and the slugs I ordered.
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Well, what the heck. I decided to take the time to fix up the tube a little more while I have it apart again.
I have blued the honed and thread repaired area inside the tube with a full dip into blueing solution. This will protect the honed area over time, since I won't lube the area with my MDS hammer. This all came out nicely and while a blued area is not quite as satin smooth as bare honed metal, it will be fine with the MDS hammer. Notice the bad look on the outside now though. I will rub down the external finish now and redip it for the outside look. If it comes out terrible, I guess I will be doing a camo paint job sooner rather than later. ;D
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I am not really satisfied with the blue look after steel wool polishing the outside, unlike the honed bare metal area inside that turned deep black. It appears that I need to get out the wet/dry sandpaper, strip this a little, and then do the dip.
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Got a tub or tank or something that you could boil the tube in?
If you polish it up then put it in boiling water for 3 minutes then pull it out and start wiping it with cold blue, scrubbing medium hard with your soaked patch and recoating for another couple of minutes, then let it cool and use ATF to wipe down the surface and fill the pores it usually makes a nice blue. (And of course before assembly degrease the inside of the tube of the petroleum oil)
Sometimes I just drop the blued but not oiled part back into the water to heat up again then apply a second coat of cold blue, using lots of it.
The boiling water really pulls the oil out of the metal better than a solvent wipe/wash then the cold blue can work better.
Of course, I posted an example of my Camoflage painting in another thread just so you could see it can be an alternative to a traditional 'Black rifle'.
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Carl, this is why I love the forum. There are lots of well versed folks in all sorts of trades related to our hobby. Thanks for the tip. I was just thinking a while ago about using heat to hasten the reaction, but I was thinking about the blueing solution. That's a great idea to just boil the actual tube. It will also make sure any last bit of contaminant is off the metal. I did already start to strip the old finish, so it will be a fresh blue. I have some automatic transmission fluid around, that I can do a final wipe with as tou suggest. I assume that is what you meant by ATF. What are your thoughts about dipping into blueing solution as I am doing, rather than wiping? I could still dip it, but also wipe it as I rotate it in the bath. My bath doesn't fully cover the tube top, so I could do both at once.
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Dipping is fine, just most people don't have anything but the small bottle of cold blue so could not do it.
Back when I trained as a gunsmith with Ron Freshour he showed me how transmission fluid sets a better blue than regular gun oil after hot bluing or touch up cold blue... Why? No idea but it does.
Thing about it is, cold blue is 'soft' and will never be as resistant to wear as a caustic hot blue is.
And if you still want black, Duracoat is fairly tough and is easily DIY
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One day, when you think abut it, go to Brownells gunsmithing supplies and order yourself a bottle of oxpho blue. It is worlds ahead of the BC home hobbyist type touch up solution.
It is still a wipe on, but much more refined product. Made for the professional. they have two different types. I use both at once.One followed by the other to catch anything the first didn't cover well.
Between the two, they do a fine job. ;)
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One day, when you think abut it, go to Brownells gunsmithing supplies and order yourself a bottle of oxpho blue. It is worlds ahead of the BC home hobbyist type touch up solution.
It is still a wipe on, but much more refined product. Made for the professional. they have two different types. I use both at once.One followed by the other to catch anything the first didn't cover well.
Between the two, they do a fine job. ;)
+ That is true
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Thanks guys! I will post how it turns out, and if its &^^&, order the better stuff. I have the BC Super Blue here. Since the metal will be bare, I am guessing it might cover pretty well. I saw on idea on the Brownells site about applying it with #0 steel wool, so you are applying and polishing at once. Any opinion on that method?
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Yes it works but at a certain point you have to ease off because you are removing as much as is being created. You have to do a final coat without the steel wool anyway.
FYI - I have used regular hardware store phosphoric acid 'rust eater' (usually called Ospho) as emergency blue too. It doesn't black blue but it does put a grayish protective coating on.
Of course, once I 'cold zinc galvanize' spray painted a shotgun too to go duck hunting on a saltwater bay... Whatever works!
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Ok, it is stripped and polished with 2000 grit wet/dry.
Should I be concerned about these marks still in the metal parallel to the tube direction? I would think not, as they appear to be a result of the tube formation process. My guess is that my finish will anyway be better than the original unless WAR spends a lot of time on these.
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One other question, do I neutralize the blueing solution with cold water before the ATF wipedown, or just put the ATF on with it still wet with blueing solution? I would think so, but I want to be sure.
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One other question, do I neutralize the blueing solution with cold water before the ATF wipedown, or just put the ATF on with it still wet with blueing solution? I would think so, but I want to be sure.
Sorry had to take care of something
You don't have to neutralize cold blue, it gets used up.
But if you use cold water before putting the ATF you will be having water molecules trapped in pores under the oil.
Put the ATF on on the hot blued metal
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Carl, you replied with just my quote!
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?
Strange, I quoted then typed a response under it then sent.
It shows up ok on my phone screen.
Update, I had to tap the post button twice to get it sent that was probably it
Anyway, a professional bluer uses caustic salts that can cause corrosion in the pores if not neutralized. When I blued that way, after the right amount of time in the boiling caustic tank, I switched the object ( barreled action usually) to a boiling water tank for another 5 minutes THEN pulled it out and let the water flash off, then apply the ATF.
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Huh. Now I can see it. Weird.
Ok, I will do as you advise.
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FYI - I had Jim at WAR make me a titanium air tube which makes the rifle SO much lighter...
but most of the reason was I'm running 3400 regulated in my plenum and had him add 2 inches for more cc. {$600}
But if someone (cough, Travis, cough) were to do aluminium tubes like JSAR does for the Marauder the weight and balance of the FLEX would be soooo much better than it already is. {$200?}
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I totally agree. An aluminum one would be perfect. I also agree on the length. My extra plenum extension is 5 or 6 inches, so much more than really needed, but another few inches would be great for longer barrels while using a bottle regulator.
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And the created gap between the regulator block and the uncovered end of the frame with the extended tube is filled with a double magazine holders so the rifles lines stay nice.
But you could just put on a u shaped filler piece...
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I was thinking similar, that a 3d printed part could go nicely in that gap. One could also design in small gauge illuminator LEDs for the regulator block next to it.
I ordered some Oxpho-Blue and Oxpho-Blue cream formula. I am debating whether to proceed or just wait and use the Brownells. If I do wait, is it best to start with the liquid or cream formula?
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I would call brownells and tell the type of metal the bluing is to be used on ask for their advice. they are the experts, and deal with the pros everyday. ;)
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I'd wait.
Recipe for successful results, preperation(of the tube, which you've done), then use quality chemicals and by following the manufacturers instructions..
Honestly, my airguns spend so much time outdoors I've grown to dislike bluing steel parts because it wears and rusts so easily or you spend a lot of time taking care of it.
Too many other modern protective coatings that make the maintenance lower and maintain looks and are DIY. I've even started using an electroless nickel plating kit for internal and close tolerance parts sometimes for rust protection and lubrication
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Carl, I get that. I may end up doing something else one day also. Right now, I am enjoying to learn the process and actually perform it hands-on. Later, I might say, "been there, done that," and go for something easier to maintain or even a rattle can camo job. Time will tell.
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Waiting on Brownells.
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Well the Oxpho Blye liquid is supposed to arrive tomorrow. They still haven't even shipped the cream one that I also ordered. I will just use the liquid and save the cream for some other time.
After the blueing, I will soak it 24 hours in ATF, and then wax it.
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So the Oxpho is supposed to show up this afternoon. I took a look at my tube and found this! So it only took a few days, and oil free metal started a light rust. The nonrusted part had a rag around it. Not to worry though, it is an extremely fine layer that came right off when I spun it again to repolish it.
I also decided to work a little but more on those parallel fine lines in the metal. It is better now. I stopped at 600 grit, because I actually like the satin finish more than a mirror finish.
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Here are some closeups after the repolish. Notice the parallel fine lines are now gone. The red and colors are just nearby objects reflecting.
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Alright. About to get this party started.
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Burning off final oils and alcohol from steel wool.
Warning: Remember that an alcohol fire like this burns clear, so you can't see it. Be safe!
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Ok. I degreased and then boiled the tube. Then I chucked it up and ran the Oxpho soaked clean steel wool across it several times keeping it wet. I kept it spinning and dried it a bit with a clean paper towel. I might should have skipped the paper towel. Then I made a few passes with Oxpho soaked swabs. The final time I was starting to get a lot of marbling. So I stopped, unchucked it, and threw it into the ATP.
It looks like this now. I believe the extra blue marbling will polish away to a uniform finish later. We will see. ???
I suppose that I should leave it in the ATP tub for a day, or?
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After 15 minutes in the ATP, I went ahead and pulled it, cleaned it off and polished it some. It looks like this now. It's ok, but not as black as I hoped.
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Looking good Matt!
Now degrease and do again. The next coat will darken er up more. ;)
What is ATP?
Mike
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I was not really happy with it, so after dinner I stripped it all off again. I think that fully dipping it gives a better coat than the swabs. It looked ok in that picture but a few spots had waterspot like slotches that I could not polish out.
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Looking good Matt!
Now degrease and do again. The next coat will darken er up more. ;)
What is ATP?
Mike
You mean David. :)
Automatic Transmission Fluid.
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Now THIS is more like it. Dipping is so much better.
This is after only 1 dip from clean metal. I will degrease and redip.
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Now here it is with a second dip. It might have even been better after just 1 dip. It is darker now, but not as perfectly even. Hmm. Might stop right here.
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That looks gorgeous!!
What did you use to hone the inside of the tube?
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Thanks Tom. Inside honing was done with this ball hone. Note that I only honed the hammer travel half of the tube up to around the transfer port.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002MOUEQW/ (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002MOUEQW/)
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We used to only leave blued stuff in the ATF for an hour. Put in hot and the metal pores absorb the 10wt oil.
Put the oil on after you do as many coats of 'hot' cold blue you need/like the look of. Reheat in the boiling water before each new coat. Don't polish off too much of the last coat as you reach a point of diminishing returns, then oil.
I used to do two coats I rubbed/polished with brass wool then a final coat left alone ( reheat) and finally oil to deepen the color and preserve.
Yours looks good in the picture ( on my phone screen at least)
You probably don't need the reminder but for safety I'll still say be sure to clean the ATF out of the plenum area when reassembling.
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Thanks Tom. Inside honing was done with this ball hone. Note that I only honed the hammer travel half of the tube up to around the transfer port.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002MOUEQW/ (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002MOUEQW/)
I was gonna buy that one, but wasn't sure if it was big enough... Thanks for confirming! I just bought it.
Oh yeah- honing the hammer section to the TP was the original plan!!
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It's the same ball hone that I used for my Marauder tubes before I upgraded to aluminum ones.
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That tube is looking good David!
Did you use straight oxphoblue or dilute it when dipping? Need quite much to dip a tube, that's why I'm asking.
Marko
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Thanks Marko. I used it straight from the bottle, without dilution. I used the whole bottle in a small plastic tub. I tipped the tub up so that the Oxpho was all along one bottom edge and then dipped the tube in it while rotating it to hit all sides. I tried the regular wiping technique but wasn't really happy with how the finish came out, so I dipped it instead.
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Thanks,
Need to test if it's better than my current method.
I'm heating the part with hot air, applying the oxpho and let it sit for couple of minutes, rinse and rub with 000 steelwool. Rinse and repeat.
That's when I'm too lazy to heat up the hot caustic bath for hot blueing.
Marko
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Great thread. Somehow I missed it before starting my Flex journey. Great info, especially the part about WAR hammer vs Mrod hammer length.
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I am glad it has been helpful for you Mike.
I do plan to come back and post some final revuilt pictures and shot strings for accuracy, but my work became very busy. I will be back with more after 2 or 3 weeks.
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Looking forward to the updates.
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Someone has inquired about the oring sizes for the Cobra regulator on the Flex. Here are the rebuild notes.
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Here is a screenshot of the regulator rebuild pdf for anyone having pdf issues.
Kinetic, I tried to reply to your PM, but it said my message was blocked.
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Heart transplant time! Wow, whoever made this even signed it. ;)
If that is an SS valve, you will want to re-spring I bet. A Marauder 10 lb spring and a half inch sleeve/spacer made from the shortened throat block out of a 2263 Marauder valve did the trick for me. Am miles from full pre-load, and it shoots in the mid-900's.
cheers,
Douglas
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Heart transplant time! Wow, whoever made this even signed it. ;)
If that is an SS valve, you will want to re-spring I bet. A Marauder 10 lb spring and a half inch sleeve/spacer made from the shortened throat block out of a 2263 Marauder valve did the trick for me. Am miles from full pre-load, and it shoots in the mid-900's.
cheers,
Douglas
If you see reply #25, I did respring it also, with that smallest spring. It was perfect.
In more recent updates, I have now switched the Flex to use a SS version 2 valve, the same one as in the JSAR Raptor. As the SS2 takes a little more spring to open compared to the original SS valve, I switched to the middle sized spring from post #25. I am preparing some shot figures to post.
In addition, I recognize that I never came back and posted final pictures or results of shooting groups with both slugs and pellets. I have ordered some of the newer NSA high speed machine slugs to test in addition to the one that I had earlier, so want to revisit this.
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On my Warp with an SS2 type valve ... hammer weight down to @25 grams and DE-STROKED a full .550" from original stroke. use an SSG with a 10# spring. Making 54 ft-lbs in .22 caliber easily.
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Scott, I might do an SSG later on this just working with the spring for now.
First up, slug hunting tune. Regulator at 3000 psi. 17 inch .30 barrel. 350cc bottle
55gr Mr. Hollowpoint slug
Spring 6 turns from max (this is the peak. One turn more only gave a few more fps)
893 fps
4055psi to 3938psi
.57 FPE/cuin per shot (Very inefficient getting max power)
117psi used
97FPE
65gr Mr Hollowpoint slug gave 845fps for 103 FPE.
ES across many shots is only a few fps. I love the WAR regulator together with SS valve.
With this, I can easily have 10 shots before coming off the regulator at the max fill of 4250, which is perfect for 1 magazine.
Up next will be the more reasonable and very efficient pellet tune. Stay tuned.
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Pellet tune - not quite perfect but I want to post it to illustrate how sensitive the SS valve can be on the efficiency sweet spot with regard to the hammer.
Name: Flex SS2 9.5 turns out 2100 Psi regulator
JSB 44.75 pellets
Notes: 3553 to 3092 on 350cc tank
Shots: 10
Average: 859 ft/s
SD: 2 ft/s
Min: 855 ft/s
Max: 861 ft/s
Spread: 6 ft/s
Power Factor Average: 38
Power Factor Low: 38
Power Factor High: 38
Weight: 44.8 gr.
1.08FPE/cuin/shot
73 FPE
46 psi/shot
Now.... this was at 9.5 turns from max on the spring and at 2100 psi. I lowered the regulator to 2000psi and turned the spring just 1/4 of a turn out more, and voila, 38 psi per shot, and a few fps less average. This puts me at 60 shots per fill at a 4250psi fill.
Note that earlier in this thread I claimed a nice 60 shot tune on the original SS valve but I had accidently used 4500psi as a max fill using a 2250 psi setpoint. As the max fill should be only 4250 really on these bottles that 60 number from before would be on 54 shots, although the tune was slightly stronger than this one.
To be continued...
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Awesome numbers out of the 17" barrel. Nice job.
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Thanks Mike. I have to give credit to the great design of the WAR regulator and the SS2 valve. ;D
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post is that free flight of the hammer with my current spring is exactly at 9.75 turns out from max, and is why putting the spring there gave me a good jump in efficiency (high power but only 38psi per shot). A SSG would give me a bit more flexibility while keeping the efficiency higher than with just a spring alone.
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Scott, I might do an SSG later on this just working with the spring for now.
First up, slug hunting tune. Regulator at 3000 psi. 17 inch .30 barrel. 350cc bottle
55gr Mr. Hollowpoint slug
Spring 6 turns from max (this is the peak. One turn more only gave a few more fps)
893 fps
4055psi to 3938psi
.57 FPE/cuin per shot (Very inefficient getting max power)
117psi used
97FPE
65gr Mr Hollowpoint slug gave 845fps for 103 FPE.
ES across many shots is only a few fps. I love the WAR regulator together with SS valve.
With this, I can easily have 10 shots before coming off the regulator at the max fill of 4250, which is perfect for 1 magazine.
Up next will be the more reasonable and very efficient pellet tune. Stay tuned.
Note in this post above I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the Flex 30 magazine only holds 7 shots, when I said a 10 shot power tune was perfect for 1 magazine. I have been single loading pellets and slugs while testing, and wasn't thinking about the right magazine.
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Scott, I might do an SSG later on this just working with the spring for now.
First up, slug hunting tune. Regulator at 3000 psi. 17 inch .30 barrel. 350cc bottle
55gr Mr. Hollowpoint slug
Spring 6 turns from max (this is the peak. One turn more only gave a few more fps)
893 fps
4055psi to 3938psi
.57 FPE/cuin per shot (Very inefficient getting max power)
117psi used
97FPE
65gr Mr Hollowpoint slug gave 845fps for 103 FPE.
ES across many shots is only a few fps. I love the WAR regulator together with SS valve.
With this, I can easily have 10 shots before coming off the regulator at the max fill of 4250, which is perfect for 1 magazine.
Up next will be the more reasonable and very efficient pellet tune. Stay tuned.
Note in this post above I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the Flex 30 magazine only holds 7 shots, when I said a 10 shot power tune was perfect for 1 magazine. I have been single loading pellets and slugs while testing, and wasn't thinking about the right magazine.
I saw that, understood what you were intending to say.
When I had my Flex, once I put the 22" barrel on I already had quite a few tuning tools--Cobra Reg, Cobra valve with 2mm stemmed peek poppet, and Rocker 1 MDS hammers in 3 different weights. I typically ran the light hammer (28 or so grams) with .125 or so gap, with the fairly heavy OEM Flex spring. 1900ish psi reg setting. This yielded easy 90fpe pellet tunes. Shot consistent MOA and sub MOA at 100 yards this way.
I just got bored with it and turned it into an Extreme .457 (via trade)......
I can only imagine the new opportunities presented with the Gen 2 SS valve.
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And now because I can't leave well enough alone, I have a 24 inch .30 barrel on the way to play with in the Flex also. It is originally from a Warp, so I am making a big assumption here that the porting and all line up the same between the Flex and Warp platforms. We will see. ;D
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And now because I can't leave well enough alone, I have a 24 inch .30 barrel on the way to play with in the Flex also. It is originally from a Warp, so I am making a big assumption here that the porting and all line up the same between the Flex and Warp platforms. We will see. ;D
Fitment should not be an issue. Scott uses my old Flex .30 17" barrel on his WARP.
Things just got to be very interesting. I will be anxious to see how much efficiency power the ss2 valve can produce.
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Well, here is the 24 inch TJs barrel in the Flex viewed through the transfer port with the barrel tensioned. Yep, I need to rework the port opening on the barrel a little. I thought that maybe I could use double washers before the clip goes on to move it back, but then the magazine won't fit. There must have been some specification variance between when my Flex was made and this barrel was made. I have a very early serial number Flex.
Then, just to make my life interesting the grub screw that helps to secure the barrel stripped at the head. I have high quality T wrenches, so it did not cause it. I will have to work it out or drill it to get the barrel back out now and replace the grub screw. I will try gently heating the aluminum with a heat gun first. Blah. I'll be back. 8)
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Thicker or thinner washer between snap ring and breech will more the barrel in / out on the WAR guns.
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I would definitely look closely at moving the barrel/port rearward before I would increase the length of the barrel port--even if that meant taking a small amount off the breech end so mags fit easily. As delivered, the Flex barely has enough bolt travel to push projectiles to the other side of a 1/4" port. There is room to modify the breech for a little more forward bolt travel prior to retraction, if you wanted to go that route.
Good luck deciding the best method of resolving. Sorry to hear about the stripped set screw, hopefully he heat gun will help.....
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Thicker or thinner washer between snap ring and breech will more the barrel in / out on the WAR guns.
When I aligned the port perfectly, the magazine was extremely tight. I might go this route anyway with a thicker washer, and just turn down the barrel end a few thousandths for the magazine to fit. I need to look at it a bit closer before proceeding.
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Oups ... MOVE the barrel in / out
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Oups ... MOVE the barrel in / out
I autocorrected as I read. I mistype constantly when posting by phone. :D
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Huh. 2.5mm Allen T wrench took the grub screw right out. I though that everything on the Flex was freedom units, but maybe this screw was metric all along. I should check the threads to see the real story here. I might anyway enlarge this to use a bigger screw, as I don't like torqueing on these little ones.
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Huh. 2.5mm Allen T wrench took the grub screw right out. I though that everything on the Flex was freedom units, but maybe this screw was metric all along. I should check the threads to see the real story here. I might anyway enlarge this to use a bigger screw, as I don't like torqueing on these little ones.
Interesting, I wonder if the screw was added after manufacturing by a previous owner? My first flex seemed to be of very similar generation as yours, and didnt have any form of barrel retention other than the snap ring. I ultimately added 3 10/32....using 3 meant very little torque required along with some blue loctite, secured the barrel very well.
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Ok, so 2 of the WAR supplied little washers is the exact and perfect spacing to make the transfer port line up exactly. The magazine is extremely tight but I did get it in. I am thinking just polising a few thousandths off the barrel breech face will make it smoother. It anyway has a bit of marring like someone used a screwdriver to replace a breech oring at some point, so it would clean that up as well. I will do all this later as I single load slugs anyway for testing and am anxious to see what power it makes. I fully anticipate it will make more if I add on the reservoir extension this time, because with a 24 inch barrel and using regulation, the plenum should be a little bigger for max power.
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Huh. 2.5mm Allen T wrench took the grub screw right out. I though that everything on the Flex was freedom units, but maybe this screw was metric all along. I should check the threads to see the real story here. I might anyway enlarge this to use a bigger screw, as I don't like torqueing on these little ones.
Interesting, I wonder if the screw was added after manufacturing by a previous owner? My first flex seemed to be of very similar generation as yours, and didnt have any form of barrel retention other than the snap ring. I ultimately added 3 10/32....using 3 meant very little torque required along with some blue loctite, secured the barrel very well.
My WarP is the same ... Snap ring only & NO receiver top side set screws. * Which i would prefer ESPECIALLY on a .30 cal where the wall thickness of barrel is so thin at sub > .100" thickness. Torque down on 3 set screws the leade and first inches of bore will no longer be round !
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Thanks Scott, now I need to worry if my barrel is an oval. Lol. Just kidding. I get your point but I hope I never cranked on it that hard. Mine has one grub screw through the round base that the shroud slides over at the receiver. Mine does not have the triangular insert into that which normally bolts onto the barrel. I think they added that later. The 24 inch barrel had that piece on it, but I needed to take it off.
Hopefully I can do some chronograph work tomorrow.
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As I am running low on certain ammo and still want to shoot groups, I will limit the tests a little.
24 inch .30 barrel, regulator at 3200 and 66gr slug, shoots at 933 fps for 127.5 FPE. It can go a little faster if I run the spring in, but I want to keep it like it is and put the plenum extension on to see the change. ;D Normally for max power people just run these Flex rifles unregulated.
Another note to would be hackers, the WAR regulator is not meant to go over 3000. You can a little, but if you push it, then you will end up needing to rebuild it or even damage it, not to mention the fact that you must be sure your tube can handle it.
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The same test as the previous post using the plenum extension but changing nothing else yielded 971 fps with a 66 grain slug for 138.1 FPE.
Then turning in the spring to see max power yielded 989 fps for 143.3 FPE. As the speed is so high, it could produce more FPE with heavier slugs, but 66 grain is the heaviest I have right now.
The Flex is certainly not as sleek and nice looking with the plenum extension, as the regulator, bottom rail foot, and bottle no longer mesh together. Some would say it ruins the lines so to speak. I am not sure if I will really run it like this ling term but it is a fun configuration, if not pretty. The nicer looking and more balanced (center of gravity) way to run it at this power level is of course to take both the plenum extension and the regulator off, running it unregulated.
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The same test as the previous post using the plenum extension but changing nothing else yielded 971 fps with a 66 grain slug for 138.1 FPE.
Then turning in the spring to see max power yielded 989 fps for 143.3 FPE. As the speed is so high, it could produce more FPE with heavier slugs, but 66 grain is the heaviest I have right now.
The Flex is certainly not as sleek and nice looking with the plenum extension, as the regulator, bottom rail foot, and bottle no longer mesh together. Some would say it ruins the lines so to speak. I am not sure if I will really run it like this ling term but it is a fun configuration, if not pretty. The nicer looking and more balanced (center of gravity) way to run it at this power level is of course to take both the plenum extension and the regulator off, running it unregulated.
The same test as the previous post using the plenum extension but changing nothing else yielded 971 fps with a 66 grain slug for 138.1 FPE.
Then turning in the spring to see max power yielded 989 fps for 143.3 FPE. As the speed is so high, it could produce more FPE with heavier slugs, but 66 grain is the heaviest I have right now.
The Flex is certainly not as sleek and nice looking with the plenum extension, as the regulator, bottom rail foot, and bottle no longer mesh together. Some would say it ruins the lines so to speak. I am not sure if I will really run it like this ling term but it is a fun configuration, if not pretty. The nicer looking and more balanced (center of gravity) way to run it at this power level is of course to take both the plenum extension and the regulator off, running it unregulated.
recoup ? ... what valve and hammer combo you running in there now ???
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Here is what it looks like with the plenum extension. Note the difference in the main tube that I stripped and blued compared to the extension, which has a finish much like a factory Flex or Marauder. I have the side covers off here, so you can see the tube more.
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Scott, that is with the SS2 and I believe it was 50gram hammer, plus striker. It's the same MDS hammer that I made up for it early in this thread. The spring is a random one that I had. I do have Marauder sized springs that are known 10lb and 12lb, and I may test those just because I am not sure the value of the one in there now.
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ok ... SS2 That rig is HOWLING !!!!!!
What a mega beast !!
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This hammer.
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ok ... SS2 That rig is HOWLING !!!!!!
What a mega beast !!
;D
It is! It goes from a backpack sized rig with the folding stock adapter with 17 inch barrel to a beast with the 24 inch barrel and plenum extension. Too bad going between the two requires so much rework. I mean it's not much, but you know what I mean. I am happy with the results.
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Here is what it looks like with the plenum extension. Note the difference in the main tube that I stripped and blued compared to the extension, which has a finish much like a factory Flex or Marauder. I have the side covers off here, so you can see the tube more.
that is smoking in .30!!! Those are close to .308 numbers. The extension definitely changes to looks and handling. However if you're going for a max power slug tune it is hard to beat for a mod that can be fairly easily undone.
I tested some with slugs and a tube extension, using a cobra valve and with a Cothran valve. When using the light hammer FPE increase wasn't as significant as you would expect. However once i put the 50ish gram hammer in it woke up quite a bit. I never ran above 2800psi reg setting, pushed those NSA 66gr right around the 140fpe mark with the 25" barrel Scott machined for me. I didn't do very much testing in this configuration, at least for me accuracy was somewhat challenging when turned up that high. This was very early in my slug shooting journey so I may have been doing something else wrong. I still have that barrel but now it is in my QB78 .30 contraption.
I think 2 of the many things Travis changed on the Raptor were definite learnings from the Flex and are key to improving the Flex's accuracy with longer barrels and higher power tunes, call it >125fpe. !) no snap ring barrel retention 2) the breech to tube screw in the middle of the mag well. The theory is this promotes better breech stability in the magwell area. i believe this one at minimum would help with higher power slug accuracy.
I will be anxious to see how a long barrel, >125fpe tune does for you when stretching it out a bit.
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Mike, I might be going out to the hunting lease this weekend, and if I do then will definitely take this setup for some shooting. Hopefully I can get away to do so.
Regarding accuracy, did you tension the barrel super tight? It can take a good bit of tensioning. You are right though, it is asking a lot from the existing breach screws at this power level. I have not seen a Raptor up close to see the screw setup. Given the large distance between front and back screws in this Flex configuration, more screws in the middle are a good idea, especially since the design has the transfer port area in the middle trying to blow itself apart against the screw tension.
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YES yes yes !!! just 4 of those 4-40 screws holding the upper to lower is a bit concerning indeed at such a high output level.
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David those are some great numbers sure made a difference in looks with the plenum extension, here's a picture of what my WarP looked like with the 24" barrel
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Another note for any would-be Flex hackers, I use 1 3/4 inch, 4-40 socket head cap screws for the upper. Earlier in the thread I showed a picture of some new ones that were a bit shorter, and there was not enough thread engagement in my opinion.
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David those are some great numbers sure made a difference in looks with the plenum extension, here's a picture of what my WarP looked like with the 24" barrel
Wow, it looked really long on the smaller WarP! Thanks for the chance with this barrel. ;D
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David those are some great numbers sure made a difference in looks with the plenum extension, here's a picture of what my WarP looked like with the 24" barrel
Yup ... my WarP with a 24" in .22 cal with a 2" longer "flex" air tube installed.
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YES yes yes !!! just 4 of those 4-40 screws holding the upper to lower is a bit concerning indeed at such a high output level.
Yep, and especially with how thin it is at the magazine well. I keep the scope on it while testing at these power levels, for whatever that is worth, to keep the flex in that weak area down.
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David those are some great numbers sure made a difference in looks with the plenum extension, here's a picture of what my WarP looked like with the 24" barrel
Yup ... my WarP with a 24" in .22 cal with a 2" longer "flex" air tube installed.
I was thinking about using my non-regulated drop block, and then the new JSAR bottle regulator, like what you have here. It is easier to then switch between regulated and non-regulated since only the bottle has to be unscrewed as opposed to the breakdown I have to do to add or remove the WAR regulator and/or plenum extension. I ultimately didn't go that way for now, as I planned to use my JSAR bottle regulator on a different build.
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Mike, I might be going out to the hunting lease this weekend, and if I do then will definitely take this setup for some shooting. Hopefully I can get away to do so.
Regarding accuracy, did you tension the barrel super tight? It can take a good bit of tensioning. You are right though, it is asking a lot from the existing breach screws at this power level. I have not seen a Raptor up close to see the screw setup. Given the large distance between front and back screws in this Flex configuration, more screws in the middle are a good idea, especially since the design has the transfer port area in the middle trying to blow itself apart against the screw tension.
Douglas P shared a theory that the breech flexes upward in the magwell, partially due to what you describe in it trying to blow itself apart, I tend to align with that theory.... I tensioned very tight once i added the 3 set screws. By that time in my journey I was somewhat bored with the gun and really embraced its accuracy as a 90fpe pellet shooter. It did such a good job that's where I left it.
I was very close to converting to .357 and bulldog mags.....then I came to my senses and didnt destroy the Flex and traded it for the Extreme.....
My journey with the Flex platform ended with me trading off 2, one for a Bulldog, one for the Extreme. In the process saving a bottle block, the mrod hammers tube extension, and some valves. If I need to scratch that itch again I'll do it with an Mrod and one of those sidelever breeches......IMHO, the main real advantage to the Flex is the longer hammer/spring area and maybe the timney trigger. The bolt retention/lock up is far superior as well, but I wouldn't plan on pushing the Mrod beyond the 100fpe mark anyway so a 10/32 mod should be sufficient....
I hope you have a chance to our her through the paces this weekend.
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Well it is all about accuracy! If this thing is a shotgun at the highest powers, then it will go back to a pellet shooter real fast. ;)
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Well it is all about accuracy! If this thing is a shotgun at the highest powers, then it will go back to a pellet shooter real fast. ;)
I am crossing my fingers that you find the right combination/compromise. Looking forward to following along....
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On point with the the current conversation ... on my WarP did re-thread the forward holes to 6-32 threading within the original WAR valve body, slightly open up the receiver to accept them w/o issue.
As the years went by and other valves have come and gone internally ( Not WAR ), TRIED TO modify them for 6-32 threading ONLY TO HAVE THREADING BREAK THREW INTO THE VALVES INNER BORE :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
* these were repairable with some JB weld on valves interior wall where threads broke threw ... so be aware of this !!!!
You won't get away with threading above 6-32 :o :o
Scott
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Well, I didn't have time to shoot groups this weekend as I had hoped, but I did get time to squeeze off a couple of very quick 75 yard groups. The Flex was putting down a 1 inch group in gusty conditions with Mr. Hollowpoint 55 grain slugs. I can't wait until I have time to go through all the slug variants that I have in a proper sit down session.
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Sounds like good results so far. I have a batch of NSA's, I think 47gr? I may put some through my 25" TJ's barrel this afternoon to see how they do. No interest in re-tuning for them, but will see how they do. Gun is a QB78 contraption with 350cc bottle, 70ish cc plenum, non-adjustable regulator, Cothran valve. Basically duplicated a Flex's specs in a chinese clothing, lol...
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Well, I didn't have time to shoot groups this weekend as I had hoped, but I did get time to squeeze off a couple of very quick 75 yard groups. The Flex was putting down a 1 inch group in gusty conditions with Mr. Hollowpoint 55 grain slugs. I can't wait until I have time to go through all the slug variants that I have in a proper sit down session.
Congrats on your journey. It’s definitely one of a kind and truly yours. Awesome work.
Peter
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I am considering switching the regulator to the JSAR adjustable one, and removing the plenum extension tube. This would give me a few extra threaded holes on the older drop block (from the extra gauge/ fill ports there) to mount a rearward angled plenum extension when I want the highest power, while maintaining the better balance and smoother lines if the drop block being tucked in with the bottom rail. It's just an idea at this point, but would be easy enough to do. I am sure someone will ask why not just run it unregulated and the answer is that I really like the highest power levels combined with the consistency of regulation over a large number of shots.
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Congrats on your journey. It’s definitely one of a kind and truly yours. Awesome work.
Peter
Thank you Peter!