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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Frenchcaster on January 12, 2023, 01:42:13 AM

Title: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 12, 2023, 01:42:13 AM
Hi all. Just wanted to share my excitement. Ordered a HW98 in .177 from Krale and it shipped this morning. I just hope I’ll evade some of the QC issues seen of late, I’ve been lured by the reputation of excellent accuracy the 98 comes with.
I have been struggling a bit with the 77k (.177) and the R9 (.22) lately.
I don’t think it’s the guns, but it’ll be nice to chase accuracy with another mistress.

Cheers

A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: jccams on January 12, 2023, 06:15:11 AM
Hi all. Just wanted to share my excitement. Ordered a HW98 in .177 from Krale and it shipped this morning. I just hope I’ll evade some of the QC issues seen of late, I’ve been lured by the reputation of excellent accuracy the 98 comes with.
I have been struggling a bit with the 77k (.177) and the R9 (.22) lately.
I don’t think it’s the guns, but it’ll be nice to chase accuracy with another mistress.

Cheers

A.
I received my HW98 from Krale in October.  The cocking arm was interfering with the breech block and needed to be bent slightly.  This seems to be a very common problem lately with the HW95 family.  Make sure the cocking arm can be wiggled with the barrel closed.  If not you will experience barrel droop.  Enjoy your new gun and let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Toxylon on January 12, 2023, 06:31:24 AM
The lure of "Maybe...just maybe this next gal...errr... gun is The Magic Gun" is powerful indeed, even when tempered with reason and comparative analysis.

I hope your 98 gives you very special hours of enjoyment!
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: cjtamu on January 12, 2023, 08:42:04 AM
Looking forward to seeing and hearing how it shoots. Beautiful guns.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Crowman on January 12, 2023, 11:11:15 AM
Your going to love your 98. One of my favourite Weihrauch’s. That barrel looks so good. Enjoy. Crow
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 12, 2023, 12:54:14 PM
I received my HW98 from Krale in October.  The cocking arm was interfering with the breech block and needed to be bent slightly.  This seems to be a very common problem lately with the HW95 family.  Make sure the cocking arm can be wiggled with the barrel closed.  If not you will experience barrel droop.  Enjoy your new gun and let us know how it goes.

That’s a good reminder. As I mentioned I am a bit leery of all the issues with finishing that have been pointed out on this forum. But… the siren song of a better springer group is very strong. I am very thankful for the experienced members sharing their knowledge on this forum.

Thank you all, I will share. I had a long time to think about this purchase. I have a .22 R9 and a .177 HW77K, both tuned by John in PA. Initially I thought I would complete the German lineup with HW30 and HW50 in .177, but I realized I wanted a gun that can be really stretched in distance for anything above what the HW30 can do. And for any hunting/pesting I would want to do the R9 is great. So the 50 would be a bit redundant. Hence the HW98. I shoot mostly benched and paper is my usual quarry.

Now, I saved the HW 30 for a future purchase - one pleasure at a time.

Cheers.

A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on January 12, 2023, 06:31:45 PM
There are two springers in my arsenal I never want to sell.
#1:My Beeman R-10 in .20
#2: My Weihrauch HW-98 on .177

Both are jewels to be had.  ;)

Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 13, 2023, 02:56:58 PM
There are two springers in my arsenal I never want to sell.
#1:My Beeman R-10 in .20
#2: My Weihrauch HW-98 on .177

Both are jewels to be had.  ;)

That is good to hear!

PS what does Krale do to get UPS to work for them so fast?????
Krale submitted information to UPS on Wednesday 1/11 at 7:13 AM ish PST. The gun was on the delivery vehicle at 5:00 AM PST this morning. Unreal.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 12:51:26 AM
Alright, it got here! I have family coming over in a few minutes so I will write up more tomorrow but I am very optimistic. I like the model more than I thought I would, and I think she is going to be a shooter.

Initially I got worried as the box had obviously got wet and soft, and it wasn't particularly well packed. Weihrauch box floating a bit in the outside shipping box, with a bubble wrapped pack of pellet tins moving around and hitting the box.
But the gun was fine, and it is a fine gun.

I had doubts about the stock, as I tend to like very traditional wood grain, but it grows on me and the stippling gives a great grip that I am liking. The bluing and detail are excellent.

I like her looks and the weight does not bother me.

I cleaned the barrel and started shooting her (I am about 100 rounds in), but I will write that including my impressions and results tomorrow.

Cheers

A.

Title: Re: HW98
Post by: jccams on January 14, 2023, 07:28:53 AM
Congratulations, she's a beauty!  Do you know what scope is going on it yet?  I put an Hawke Airmax 4-12x40 on mine.  I predict you will have many many hours of enjoyment from her.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on January 14, 2023, 08:15:20 AM
CONGRATS!
The adjustability of the cheek riser and the butt plate is a great feature.
 Once you get it set to your body structure it is an amazing difference.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: uglymike on January 14, 2023, 11:22:40 AM
How's the spring buzzzz out of the box? Wonderful rifle, heirloom quality. What are you plans for it? Bench, FT, hunt, backyard plinker? 
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: desmobob on January 14, 2023, 12:25:11 PM
Congratulations!  I hope it's as good as its reputation!

As soon as I hit the lottery, I'm ordering an HW98 and HW35E.   :D
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 02:04:27 PM
Good morning all!

So, I wanted to record a bit my first day with the HW98.

First impressions and prep:
 - I already wrote briefly about liking the gun. The aesthetics and execution are great. I would prefer a more traditional stock, but I love the practical aspect of the stippled grip, and the foreshock slits make it easy to get repeatable grip and position, which is a must for springers. The bluing is excellent if just a bit thin in a couple areas.

 - the threaded barrel weight came off very easily, crown looks good. The inside of the muzzle weight is not finished smoothly and has tooling marks (see pictures). I wonder what that could do to turbulence as the pellet exits the crown off the barrel.

 - Cocking is actually smooth, solid and satisfying right out of the box. No gritty feeling, no clangs or rings.

 - I cleaned the barrel with Hoppe's 9. some gunk in there, but not as bad as I expected

 - I pushed a couple pellets through the barrel to get a feel for rifling and tightness. Rifling marks look good to me (see picture). The leade and first third of the barrel are quite tight, then there's a loose feeling 3/6 of the barrel (quite loose but the pellet didn't fall either) and the last 6th is a very pronounced choke. The choke seems to be quite precisely located under the threaded end of the barrel, I wonder if the threading process is in part responsible for creating the choke.

 - I checked for cocking arm impingement. It is definitely snug against the breech block but I am able to move it a tiny bit side to side and I don't see marks on the breech block, nor do I see obvious barrel droop so I think I am just ok avoiding barrel droop. The future will tell.

 - I checked screws OH MY!!!! As a background let's remember that Weihrauch has some guidelines for screws (they're in various threads on this site: 22.5 inch/lb for fore grip screws and back trigger guard screw, 44 inch/lb for the front trigger guard screw. The gun as delivered had fore grip screws/rear trigger guard screw under 12 inch/lb and the front trigger guard screw was under 20 inch/lb. So, HW rifles in my mind should be expected to be loose upon delivery. I adjusted screws to 22, 40 and 15 inch/lb (that has worked well for me in other rifles).

 - Next step was to mount a scope.

Congratulations, she's a beauty!  Do you know what scope is going on it yet?  I put an Hawke Airmax 4-12x40 on mine.  I predict you will have many many hours of enjoyment from her.

I have a Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24X50 on a ZR mount ready for this gun, so I installed it right away.

 - Finally, moved to the yard to start shooting!

More to come.

Cheers
A.


Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 02:34:32 PM
First shots:

I decided to start this gun with HN Barracuda Hunter Extreme, 9.57gr. Why? because I have an ample supply of those to break it in and they're quality pellets. My HW77k used to really like them so I ordered 10 or 12 tins from Himla last year at a really good price, but for some reason the 77 now is unhappy with them. so be it. I am planning on using 2 tins of the BHE before I start testing other pellets.

First shot impressions:
 - the cycle is pretty short and snappy, no obvious dieseling at all. Recoil is reasonable. As expected right out of the box the sight picture jumps just a bit more than I'd like.
 - the gun is fairly loud, which isn't a problem in my situation.
 - the stock is very comfortable, the grip feels good.
 - the trigger is BAAAAAD out of the box (compared to what a Rekord can and should be). it is heavy, and there's significant creep. I tried adjusting the main screw a bit but it barely moved, I imagine HW next the screw tab enough that I would ruin the threads if I keep going. At least it is consistent and predictable LOL.
 - TWAAAAAAAANNNNNNNGGGGGGG. That thing is buzzy as all get!

It all reminded me how lucky I am to shoot tuned guns, and what a difference tuning makes to shooting comfort and pleasure. This is not a well polished aristocrat, this is a teenager  - full of potential, wet and vinegar!

I set up the chronograph out of curiosity, to see how a new gun behaves. I know we are a few tins away from the chronology being useful.

The first 5 shots were taken at a standard 10m target at 10m (11 yards) to start zeroing the scope enough for the next step. WOW! I did not expect that. It is a short distance but one hole right out of the box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I walked 10 more shots up to zero.

Finally I set up my target box at 25 yards and zeroed again.

Then the "work" started: I had enough decreasing light to shoot a target sheet
 - 5 shot groups except the last one, 10 shots at bottom right
 - 25yards
 - 1/2" bulls.

It is fun to see the groups tighten a little bit. The twang is still very present but is slightly reduced after just 120-130 shots. The gun at this stage does not seem very hold fussy, but it will take a lot more to decide.

I was blown away by the chronograph readings.I started the chronograph when I started on the sheet, so about 25-30 shots in.
The first 30 shots measured as follows:

Shot count: 30
Low: 812
Hi: 840
Avg: 829
Spread: 28
STD Dev: 6.8

830
819
826
823
833
830
814
812
833
840
840
833
830
826
837
828
830
826
840
821
833
833
833
828
833
830
835
823
828
828

First, speed is right where I would want it for decent future accuracy. Second, look at how the velocities slowly stabilize. if you just take the last 10 shots of this string, numbers are as follows:

Shot count: 10
Low: 823
Hi: 835
Avg: 830
Spread: 12
STD Dev: 3.7

50 shots in, I'd say that is promising and hopefully, a sign of solid repeatable mechanics.

Now, I just need to keep shooting for a while.... I will report again in a few days hopefully, if I keep getting semi decent weather.

Cheers

A.




Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 02:37:41 PM
How's the spring buzzzz out of the box? Wonderful rifle, heirloom quality. What are you plans for it? Bench, FT, hunt, backyard plinker?

Spring buzz is quite bad - but I have been shooting tuned guns for a while so I had just forgotten what it is like  ;D

My plan is mostly bench (the quest for small accurate groups is endless), and I would like to move to FT style shooting.

Cheers
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 02:38:53 PM
CONGRATS!
The adjustability of the cheek riser and the butt plate is a great feature.
 Once you get it set to your body structure it is an amazing difference.

I have just started messing with the stock to adjust it - it's already helping my neck not crank, and I think it will help my canting issues a lot!
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Yogi on January 14, 2023, 03:08:03 PM


My plan is mostly bench (the quest for small accurate groups is endless), and I would like to move to FT style shooting.

Cheers
A.

Well you already have the right gun carrier for FT! ;)

Since you gun seems very accurate, why not leave it alone?  Tune it after the OEM spring breaks. ;)

-Y
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Yogi on January 14, 2023, 03:10:18 PM
deleted.... 8) ???
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 14, 2023, 03:15:40 PM
Yogi, the top summary is for the whole 30 shots and includes High of 840, the second summary only includes the last 10 shots and is accurate I think  ;)


Well you already have the right gun carrier for FT! ;)

Since you gun seems very accurate, why not leave it alone?  Tune it after the OEM spring breaks. ;)

-Y

My current plan is to only improve the trigger adjustment and leave it as is for a while. At least a couple thousand shots in
Cheers
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on January 14, 2023, 04:18:09 PM
OUTSTANDING!!!!!

Tune in a Tube may be all it will need after the trigger adjustment.
But for now I'd just shoot it... a lot !!!!
(as I dig mine out of hibernation)
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Arch_E on January 14, 2023, 11:24:51 PM
From everything I've read, the 98 is a fantastic air rifle. I'm tapped out at the weight of the 97; but from a rest, it's a fabulous shooter.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 15, 2023, 01:34:37 AM
OUTSTANDING!!!!!

Tune in a Tube may be all it will need after the trigger adjustment.
But for now I'd just shoot it... a lot !!!!
(as I dig mine out of hibernation)

Scott, that was my hope but it was not meant to be.

400 shots in, maybe a few more.

Today, I took the action out of the stock and adjusted the trigger. I didn’t do any tuning, just adjusted creep and unbent the weight screw tab to allow for adjustment. It’s now where I like it: light with a nice crisp wall at second stage and a clean break. I could adjust some more but it’s plenty good enough.
I realized that on one side, the stock screw was placed with both a toothed locking washer and a smooth washer while on the other side the smooth washer was missing leaving the toothed locking washer to eat into the wood.
So I replaced the missing washer and changed the screws to hex socket button  screws.

Then I shot again.
Here are the good news:
The gun wants to group well. I finished the first tin of Baracuda Hunter extremes and shot 25 FTT for giggles, they grouped better than the BHE.
The screws are now holding well, I checked periodically and did not find them to loosen.

Here are the bad news:

 - the gun started dieseling right away, first somewhat heavily then with a heavy orange hue for over 100 shots. Even at the end of about 250 shots I could still clearly smell some  dieseling and see a whiff of smoke in the cold damp air. That’s something that wasn’t happening yesterday.

 - Quite logically,  velocities were affected. The gun was shooting faster and with more variation. Here’s an example towards the end of the session:

Shot count: 44
Low: 835
Hi: 875
Avg: 851
Spread: 40
STD Dev: 8.2

That’s a 20 fps increase and double the std dev from yesterday.

 - returning the barrel to lockup after cocking became a gritty affair over the last 20 shots of the session or so, it had been quite smooth before.

 - I feel like the twang got a lot worse over the last 40-50 shots

 - there was some mild dieseling still at the very end of the session but velocities dropped fairly suddenly:
Shot count: 14
Low: 817
Hi: 844
Avg: 833
Spread: 27
STD Dev: 7.5


Hmmmmmmm…

I am going to sleep on this but I am quite worried by the increase in vibration and lower velocities.
My current thoughts:
 - barrel pivot and cocking arm need lubrication

 - the piston seal must be leaking some consistently to explain extended dieseling

 - I can’t rule out a damaged spring or spring guide

So the question is whether I open it up or keep shooting. I feel that dieseling is not a self curing problem, especially since it wasn’t there yesterday. The gun should be smoothing out not the opposite. I will void the warranty if I open the action but I don’t think I want to return it anyway given the potential shown overall.
That gun already feels like part of the family.

Much to think about.

Cheers

A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: uglymike on January 15, 2023, 05:32:37 AM
You said yourself you shoot tuned springers. You know it'll have to be dealt with eventually, might as well order the kit you prefer now. That way when you're ready.......  ;D
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Toxylon on January 15, 2023, 06:17:09 AM
In my experience, German springers in factory guise will diesel for well into 1 000 pellets and more. Even when obvious signs of it are gradually gone, the velocities are clearly affected for a really long time, or until the innards are degreased, relubed, and to an extent, replaced.

Also, many of my guns have followed a "dieseling curve", where first there's none, then some, then plenty, then a little less.... Nothing out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: cjtamu on January 15, 2023, 08:26:14 AM
I’d take it apart. Guns shooting with that kind of power are going to diesel a little unless they’re lubed with Krytox or similar, but what you described sounds way beyond that. The big drop in consistency would worry me. Lots of posts from experienced tuners about HW coming over lubed the last few years and burning seals, etc. Worth a look inside.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Toxylon on January 15, 2023, 08:43:29 AM
I would probably keep shooting the gun, and ride out the symptoms. The factory piston seal and mainspring are poor at best, so I'd reason to break in the gun mechanically with the throw-away parts already in there. And as Andreas points out, dismantling the gun would void the warranty, and there may be a warranty-worthy issue in there somewhere.

But a solid case can be made for a teardown at daybreak, too.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: jccams on January 15, 2023, 09:01:19 AM
Tear it down.  It should not be getting worse as you shoot it. My 98 had some metal shavings in it from the cocking shoe/slot.  I only shot it a few times for function and it was then torn down for an ARH kit install.  The metal had scored the tube slightly after only a few shots.  It's not worth doing more damage by trying to shoot it smooth IMO.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Deerstalker on January 15, 2023, 12:21:09 PM
I’d take it apart. Guns shooting with that kind of power are going to diesel a little unless they’re lubed with Krytox or similar, but what you described sounds way beyond that. The big drop in consistency would worry me. Lots of posts from experienced tuners about HW coming over lubed the last few years and burning seals, etc. Worth a look inside.
2020 HW95L seal damaged by dieseling from factory over oiling/greasing.
(https://i.imgur.com/p4th2fpl.jpg)

Vortek seal, ARH kit & GPL-205 lube installed and now these results.

Pellet Rifle performance data results (1/09/2023)                     
                     
Shot Number   Pellet Weight (Grain)   Speed (FPS)   Speed (MPS)   FPE (450240)   FPE (450436.7)   Joules   Range (FPS)
1   14.66   730.0   222.50   17.351   17.344   23.525   723 Low
2   14.66   725.0   220.98   17.115   17.107   23.204   730 High
3   14.66   726.0   221.28   17.162   17.154   23.268   
4   14.66   729.0   222.20   17.304   17.296   23.461   
5   14.66   729.0   222.20   17.304   17.296   23.461   
6   14.66   726.0   221.28   17.162   17.154   23.268   
7   14.66   723.0   220.37   17.020   17.013   23.076   
8   14.66   723.0   220.37   17.020   17.013   23.076   
9   14.66   728.0   221.89   17.256   17.249   23.396   
10   14.66   726.0   221.28   17.162   17.154   23.268   
                     
Mean Values   14.66   726.5   221.44   17.186   17.18   23.300   7.0
                     
FPS = Feet Per Second, MPS = Meters Per Second, FPE = Foot Pounds of Energy.                       
To convert to Joules multiply FPE by 1.3558,  Joules to FPE multiply by .7376                      
To convert meters per second, MPS, to FPS = 1M x 3.28084.                     
To convert feet per second, FPS, to MPS = 1F x .3048.                     
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: cjtamu on January 15, 2023, 12:23:44 PM
While we’re talking HW warranty, does anyone know the warranty situation with guns bought outside the US? All of our HW purchased from AoA have USA stamped on the barrels. The 97 long from Krale doesn’t. Talking with someone from Canada and all his barrels are stamped CA-20 or CA21. His guns are all full power, not Canadian spec. Have been thinking it must be some type of identification for warranty work but would like to know if anyone has the answer.

The other question would be whether seals and springs are even covered since they’re consumables. You’d have to get HW to agree any damage was from excessive lube or parts issues.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Yogi on January 15, 2023, 02:40:25 PM
While we’re talking HW warranty, does anyone know the warranty situation with guns bought outside the US? All of our HW purchased from AoA have USA stamped on the barrels. The 97 long from Krale doesn’t. Talking with someone from Canada and all his barrels are stamped CA-20 or CA21. His guns are all full power, not Canadian spec. Have been thinking it must be some type of identification for warranty work but would like to know if anyone has the answer.

The other question would be whether seals and springs are even covered since they’re consumables. You’d have to get HW to agree any damage was from excessive lube or parts issues.

Once you open them up, you are on your own... :D  Yeah, pellets are not covered either... :D
Other than a MAJOR manufacturing defect, once the rifle is "serviced" by a non-trained factory tech tough nugggies. 8)
Glad they are rather simple machines and easily worked on.

-Y
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 15, 2023, 02:51:11 PM
I am going to tear it down.
This gun seems to really want to be good, I can’t think of a scenario where dieseling this much is a good thing or something that can’t be corrected.
And let’s face it, tinkering is half the fun. I don’t do anything crazy anyway, so I can have a better tuner than me do their magic if needed.

I’ll document later.

Cheers

A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: cjtamu on January 15, 2023, 04:46:36 PM
While we’re talking HW warranty, does anyone know the warranty situation with guns bought outside the US? All of our HW purchased from AoA have USA stamped on the barrels. The 97 long from Krale doesn’t. Talking with someone from Canada and all his barrels are stamped CA-20 or CA21. His guns are all full power, not Canadian spec. Have been thinking it must be some type of identification for warranty work but would like to know if anyone has the answer.

The other question would be whether seals and springs are even covered since they’re consumables. You’d have to get HW to agree any damage was from excessive lube or parts issues.

Once you open them up, you are on your own... :D  Yeah, pellets are not covered either... :D
Other than a MAJOR manufacturing defect, once the rifle is "serviced" by a non-trained factory tech tough nugggies. 8)
Glad they are rather simple machines and easily worked on.

-Y

Misunderstanding the question. I know it’s void if you open it. My HW97 doesn’t have a USA stamp because it wasn’t purchased here. If I have a warranty issue can I send it to AoA or would it have to go back to EU? Came with the guns bought and sold in CA with the stamp. Could they go to AoA or any other service center or do they have to serviced in Canada? Has to be some reason they’re going to the trouble of stamping the barrels.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 16, 2023, 04:55:07 PM
Misunderstanding the question. I know it’s void if you open it. My HW97 doesn’t have a USA stamp because it wasn’t purchased here. If I have a warranty issue can I send it to AoA or would it have to go back to EU? Came with the guns bought and sold in CA with the stamp. Could they go to AoA or any other service center or do they have to serviced in Canada? Has to be some reason they’re going to the trouble of stamping the barrels.

I have no idea but it is a good question.

Update:
I tore into the gun.
I found the usual: very sharp edges and a nicked seal. Not burnt yet, not the worst, but there is no way that nick wasn't going to let grease in front of the piston. I am glad I went in. The spring guide was very loose, it was a bit overruled but really not that bad. There is a clear rub mark in the tube where the piston rubs on cocking but no obvious galling. The piston itself seems to fit really quite well, not much room for a button.

The breech washers were likely what was causing some gritty cocking as they were "eating" into the breech block. The breech hinge was likely set too tight from factory.

So I looked in my box and found an ARH seal that seems to fit well (a tiny bit snug but not tight), and a brand new ARH HW 95 kit (because who doesn't just have one set aside in case  ;D).
The kit seems to fit well with the HW piston sleeve in place so I did not touch that.
I cleaned and deburred very conservatively, did an almost dry burnish of pressure points with ARH moly and finished lubing with Vortex grease.

Reinstalled everything and took the opportunity to adjust the trigger further and add a Rowan setback trigger blade. I didn't do anything to the trigger otherwise, it is very good.

First impressions:
 - nice quick sharp cycle with just a crack, minimal dieseling for maybe 5 shots then I don't really see or smell anything. The gun passes the turret test but barely, it is still a tiny bit jumpy.

Now here is the weird thing: I used the chronograph to follow the gun's settling. It is much slower than I expected. After about 60-80 shots here is where we are:

 - a gritty feeling during the cocking stroke. I have to have a look, I am worried about piston to tube galling.

 - velocities have settled from about 800-810 fps to 735-750 fps. The gun is settling around 11-11.5 ft/lb which is much lower than I expected.I even went back to my ARH order history to make sure it was a normal FAC kit, it is supposed to be.

 - spread and deviation are still excessive but that can settle much more.

So I need to go back and check for galling, maybe consider more moly in the right spots or a piston button but I have never been able to have them stay (ARH glue on buttons), check the fit of the seal and maybe sand it a little bit.

I have ordered a Vortex seal as well as they tend to self adjust.

That's where we are at...

Oh and by the way, the gun is a keeper. Check that group of 5 shots using JSB exacts. 25 yards, artillery hold, not even 0.2 CTC. That is really good for me.

Cheers

A.

Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Yogi on January 16, 2023, 06:59:20 PM
Hope you did not stop shooting after you shot that excellent group? :D

-Y
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 16, 2023, 09:49:15 PM
Hope you did not stop shooting after you shot that excellent group? :D

-Y

Yogi, I had to temporrily. I got really worried about the gritty feeling I was getting upon cocking. I am glad I did too.

I opened her back up:

 - The cocking shoe was galling in one spot
 - The piston skirt and compression tube were galling as well. At least I now know exactly where a button could help...
 - The piston seal is not really oversized. It could be adjusted a tiny bit but really there is no reason for the seal to be killing velocities - It's not any tighter than the OEM.

For now, I added moly on the spots that were starting to gall and decided to keep shooting.
Cocking immediately improved back to being smooth. I am surprised, I thought I had lubed enough the first time - apparently not.

Groups are still very good -  it seems to like FTT and JSB exacts better than the heavier pellets.

But, I am a bit worried/surprised by the low velocities I am seeing. The gun is settling around 10.5-11 FPE with an ARH hornet kit. And speed keeps going down. Makes no sense. I wonder if I accidentally got the wrong spring or what. Even though the spring seems strong enough - I can't really put the gun back together without a compressor.

Puzzling.

Cheers

A.



Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Denby95 on January 16, 2023, 11:07:45 PM
Wow, what scored that line inside of the receiver tube? Was that grit or something?
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 16, 2023, 11:20:34 PM
Wow, what scored that line inside of the receiver tube? Was that grit or something?

As far as I can tell it’s galling between the tube and the piston. I had cleaned thoroughly, shouldn’t be any grit. That’s where pressure from the cocking arm pushes the piston skirt on the receiver. I guess I did not lubricate quite well enough.
Bummer.
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Toxylon on January 17, 2023, 03:38:19 AM
Sharp edges, nicked piston seal, pivot joint too tight - all par for the course on a Weihrauch. Sadly, galling seems very common too, these days.

About the piston seal fit: as I'm sure you know, a piston seal just a little too tight can lead to dramatic velocity losses. Been there. If the piston with the new seal doesn't move in the chamber with a one-finger push (around 2#), it is too tight, especially for a mid-power gun such as the 98.

I reckon a full-power .177 cal 98 should produce around 19 J at the muzzle. You are about 3 J below that. Easily (but not neccessarily) explained by the seal.

Maccari seals usually cut the velocity some, even when perfectly fitted. A Vortek VAC seal is what the Weihrauch guys use to get velocities up to spec.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 19, 2023, 06:00:06 PM
It was the seal.
I replaced it with an OEM seal in good condition and we’re right at 13-14 FPE (17-19J) with the ARH kit.
Now of course the cycle is a bit harsher, but I bet a 1-2 coils off would take care of some of that.
I’m going to have fun with this one, my Vortek seal should be coming in today and will be what I use. I also have a Vortek kit on the way, and a short stroke extension coming from TBT.
Moly resolved the galling issue for now, I’m not messing with buttons at this time.
Cheers
A.
Fun fun fun.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Deerstalker on January 19, 2023, 06:28:40 PM
FWIW My HW95L .22 with an ARH kit and a Vortek seal averages just over 17 FPE or 23 Joules.  Cocking cycle is soundless until the piston rod latches in the trigger.  I polished the grooves on each side of the cocking shoe when installing the ARH kit.  Shot cycle is a sharp thud.  10 shot spread is 7 FPS with FTT 14.66 5.53 mm pellets.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 19, 2023, 06:55:24 PM
Hey Dave,
Thank you that’s a helpful reference point. Since mine is in .177, I think it’s on par. I’ll try it later today with the new Vortek seal, just got it a minute ago.
Cheers
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 20, 2023, 03:22:09 AM
She’s stabilizing nicely where I thought she would with the VAC seal. About 100 shots in, trying a few different pellets.
With Baracuda FT 9.57 gr:
Shot count: 14
Low: 821
Hi: 828
Avg: 826
Spread: 7
STD Dev: 2.1

That’s about 14.5 FPE.

Looking good. Grouping well with most pellets I’ve tried. Requires my full attention for accuracy at this point, but very rewarding.

Cheers
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on January 28, 2023, 12:08:36 AM
Just a bit of an update. I am playing with Vortek kits.

The HO kit is stiff and jumpy out of the box. But the shot cycle is awesome and I love that sharp "TCHAK" cycle. It iOS shooting 14.5-15fpe with heavies (CPH, Baracuda Match) and 15-16 fps with lighter fare. I think one coil off may tame the beast and make it more accurate in my hands. At this level it is not a bag rest rifle.

I tried a low output (12 fpe) kit. It is shooting 11-11.5 fps, so right on the money. Much milder of course, but I don't like the shot cycle as much. I get better accuracy of course.

The low output kit with one 1/8" metal washer and one delrin ARH washer reaches 12.5-13 fpe. I like the cycle a little better with that added preload and piston weight.

Basically at low output I feel that the cycle is not that great and I am holding the gun back. At high output I love the sharp quick cycle but am not getting good enough accuracy.

I have a shot stroke kit coming from TbT in the next few days, I want to experiment with that with both the low and the high output Vortek kits, see how the gun responds.

For now, she seems to be settling on Baracuda Match 10.65Gr, Baracuda FT 9.57Gr, and FTT 8.64Gr in that order. She does surprisingly well at least at shorter distances with the Crosman Premier Heavy. I haven't tried that one too much to not mix leads. I think the gun likes heavies better (but sprays AA 10.3Gr like birdshot). everything I try under 9.57 Gr doesn't do too well.

I will keep playing. If the short stroke kit does not yield good results, I will trim the high output Vortek a bit, I would like to keep this gun around 14fpe with a milder cycle so I can bench rest it if I want to.

This is fun.

To finish for today, here are two targets shot at the end of the day with Baracuda Match at 59yards, shouldered with forestock on a bag with the low output kit and washers. those are very good for me. 10 shots each. On the first target there are actually 11 shots, the stray one on the right side of the group is a called pull.

I am loving this thing. She might end up needing a name.

Cheers

A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Bayman on January 28, 2023, 01:41:26 AM
Having a long slow shot cycle to decrease power doesn't appeal to me either. You should be able to get good accuracy in the 14.5-15 fpe range with that gun. It will take a little bit of concentration but you'll still have a nice quick shot cycle.

Be careful that the gun isn't dieseling. Dieseling will tank your accuracy. It's also more prone to dieseling at higher power levels. Dieseling is sometimes the accuracy thief and not the increase in power level.

I have a 15 fpe 177 Hw95 and a 16fpe 20 caliber R9 that shoot very well at those power levels. I feel it's in part to the fact I build clean running guns. I'm currently wrestling with a Vortek kit and a 22 Hw95 and I'll see how that one works out.

Sounds like you're enjoying your gun. Keep us in the loop. I'm curious about the the details and results of your destroking efforts.

Be well
Ron

Ps stay away from the Crosman and try some more mid 8 and 9 grain pellets. Those guns usually loose efficiency with heavy pellets. That efficiency loss is usually due to piston bounce which can hurt accuracy as well.

Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Bayman on January 28, 2023, 01:43:31 AM
Excellent shooting btw.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on January 28, 2023, 01:48:30 AM
FYI:
My HW98 in .177 prefers the H&N FTT 8.64g in 4.52 head size.
YMMV
 ;)
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Yogi on January 28, 2023, 02:39:52 AM
Just a bit of an update. I am playing with Vortek kits.

The HO kit is stiff and jumpy out of the box. But the shot cycle is awesome and I love that sharp "TCHAK" cycle. It iOS shooting 14.5-15fpe with heavies (CPH, Baracuda Match) and 15-16 fps with lighter fare. I think one coil off may tame the beast and make it more accurate in my hands. At this level it is not a bag rest rifle.

I tried a low output (12 fpe) kit. It is shooting 11-11.5 fps, so right on the money. Much milder of course, but I don't like the shot cycle as much. I get better accuracy of course.

The low output kit with one 1/8" metal washer and one delrin ARH washer reaches 12.5-13 fpe. I like the cycle a little better with that added preload and piston weight.

Basically at low output I feel that the cycle is not that great and I am holding the gun back. At high output I love the sharp quick cycle but am not getting good enough accuracy.

I have a shot stroke kit coming from TbT in the next few days, I want to experiment with that with both the low and the high output Vortek kits, see how the gun responds.

For now, she seems to be settling on Baracuda Match 10.65Gr, Baracuda FT 9.57Gr, and FTT 8.64Gr in that order. She does surprisingly well at least at shorter distances with the Crosman Premier Heavy. I haven't tried that one too much to not mix leads. I think the gun likes heavies better (but sprays AA 10.3Gr like birdshot). everything I try under 9.57 Gr doesn't do too well.

I will keep playing. If the short stroke kit does not yield good results, I will trim the high output Vortek a bit, I would like to keep this gun around 14fpe with a milder cycle so I can bench rest it if I want to.

This is fun.

To finish for today, here are two targets shot at the end of the day with Baracuda Match at 59yards, shouldered with forestock on a bag with the low output kit and washers. those are very good for me. 10 shots each. On the first target there are actually 11 shots, the stray one on the right side of the group is a called pull.

I am loving this thing. She might end up needing a name.

Cheers

A.

I put a tbt short stroke kit in my HW 50.  That is for my 8fpe 10M gun though.... :-[

-Y
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on February 02, 2023, 12:57:33 AM
FYI:
My HW98 in .177 prefers the H&N FTT 8.64g in 4.52 head size.
YMMV
 ;)

for now, mine does ok but not best with any of the sizes I have (4.50, 4.51, 4.52). It seems to be enjoying baracuda FT and AA 4.51 (8.4 Gr).

Having a long slow shot cycle to decrease power doesn't appeal to me either. You should be able to get good accuracy in the 14.5-15 fpe range with that gun. It will take a little bit of concentration but you'll still have a nice quick shot cycle.
I am hoping for about 14fpe for distance, but my goal is accuracy with this one. so I would take less if I absolutely have to.

Be careful that the gun isn't dieseling. Dieseling will tank your accuracy. It's also more prone to dieseling at higher power levels. Dieseling is sometimes the accuracy thief and not the increase in power level.
I was worried about that, I have been cleaning thoroughly between adjustments and lubing ever less. I may try Krytox at some point but I have so much good looking dinosaur grease...

I have a 15 fpe 177 Hw95 and a 16fpe 20 caliber R9 that shoot very well at those power levels. I feel it's in part to the fact I build clean running guns. I'm currently wrestling with a Vortek kit and a 22 Hw95 and I'll see how that one works out.
Wrestling is the correct word.I am struggling a bit with the Vortek steel sleeve - see below. But my JPA tuned .22 R9 with Vortek kit is awesome.

Sounds like you're enjoying your gun. Keep us in the loop. I'm curious about the the details and results of your destroking efforts.
I am certainly enjoying the challenges, and the frustrations. I am still waiting for the TbT destroke kit. as soon as I have it I will experiment. It is the only reason I haven't tried to cut 1/2-1 coil off the full power vortek.

Ps stay away from the Crosman and try some more mid 8 and 9 grain pellets. Those guns usually loose efficiency with heavy pellets. That efficiency loss is usually due to piston bounce which can hurt accuracy as well.
Yes, the fps drops pretty fast once I get into 10grain land. But I had some great accuracy a few times with the baracuda Match. Oy.  More testing to do. Am I correct that I can increase the piston weight (heavy washers or top hat) to counter bounce if the gun ends up having a strong preference for heavies?

Cheers
A.
Title: Re: HW98
Post by: Frenchcaster on February 02, 2023, 01:09:25 AM
As to current state of affairs, this gun is definitely giving me food for thought, frustration and happiness.
I was shooting for a while (a few hundred pellets) with the high output Vortek. Velocities dropped and cocking became un-smooth.

After full explore of innards and outtards, I found horrific galling of the breech hinge (looks like a small piece of metal, likely from the machining of the hinge threads, worked its way through the moly between the shim and breech block. I have both some brass McMasterCarr 0.1mm washers and OEM shims on their way.
That however proved not to be the main (velocity) issue. What I thought was normal contact wear of the Vortek steel sleeve did not disappear with mirror polish of the cocking shoe and a nice ARH button on the back end of the piston. Turns out there was a nasty burr and tight spot inside the piston, at the back end of the cocking slot. I had deburred but not effectively due to the case hardening, and the punching process had created a significant inwards lip of the back of the cocking slot. I dealt with that with files and sandpaper.

We are smooth again, but either I am, or the gun is, less accurate right now. I have shot at least a couple tins or more through the gun, so maybe a barrel clean is due. I am wondering about a barrel fire lap with 400 grit and bore waxing per previous threads. Will start with just cleaning.

For now, I am just waiting for parts before I do anymore, I especially want to avoid galling anymore the breech block.

This is interesting. This is both the most accurate out of the box gun I have had, and the most problem-laden. I really feel that if I had just "kept shooting" the thing it would have galled itself into a puddle of dieseling metal grit.

Cheers

A.