Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
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Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
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Mossonarock
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Real Name: Tim
Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
on:
October 08, 2018, 09:56:23 AM »
I have a .25 cal Dominator 200 from Hatsan and I would like to replace the spring that is in it. My Dominator is one of the closeouts from HastsanUSA. I tried asking Hatsan directly that if the spring can be replaced and all they had to say is that it would void the warranty. Then I never heard back from them. I am definitely under the impression that Hatsan won't hold up their warranty. I asked for an RMA from Hatsan, since the rifle's fps is way under their specifications using all the pellet weights I had from 16 gr up to 30, only to never hear back from them. So forget their warranty that they only stand behind in order to find reason to NOT support their product in my experience anyway. Its clear to me that the Dominator has a lot of potential if that spring can at least be replaced with a stronger and smoother operating one. I haven't decided if I want to go with another spring or replace it with a gas piston. So, I'm trying to learn what I can before I make a decision.
I'm wondering if anyone has replaced spring with a gas piston. If so, I'd like to know what details there are regarding the end plug that holds the piston/spring in the gun and how the piston catches onto the sear. Are there any alterations that are necessary or is it really just plug and play? I've watched through all of Airgunnersedge's videos on youtube and I'm aware that it appear he had replaced the spring with a gas piston but he didn't show much details about the process. Then there's also that Brazilian video on youtube but he speaks Portuguese.
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lefteyeshot
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #1 on:
October 08, 2018, 02:47:20 PM »
I've had a .177 springer Dominator carbine for a few years. Shoots good. 800-850fps depending on pellet weight. I don't think a gas ram would make much difference. I'm not a gas ram fan anyway. Just don't like the sound and the feel of the shot cycle.
Consider this. I have a .177 Proxima. It's the only gas ram I have now because it only comes in gas ram. I'm thinking about putting a spring in it. Except for the repeater part and wood stock it's similar to the Dominator. I like it a lot. It's gotten some bad reviews but it looked to me like they were from guys who couldn't figure out how to properly operate it. Muzzle velocity about the same as my Dominator.
I prefer .177 but I just punch paper or kill a few empty cat food cans or wine bottle corks. I think .22 would give you more options in ammo and a heavy .22 will probably do anything a .25 will.
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Mossonarock
Licensed to crenellate
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 859
~~~
Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #2 on:
October 08, 2018, 05:56:25 PM »
Please don't get me wrong. I like my .25 cal dominator but I believe that it can offer more with a better spring whether metal or gas.
I'm hoping to get the performance up to at least 650ish fps with a 25gr pellet. If I remember right, its in the upper 400s fps with 25 gr pellet.
The best I could get is about 600 fps with the lightest alloy pellet I could get- 16 gr I think. I'm not at home so I don't have my notes with me.
To be fair, for the sake of comparison. My weihrauch is almost as buzzy and twangy while shooting as my dominator is. I'm also considering an after-market spring for my weihrauch too for the same reasons. I've honestly been a bit underwhelmed by my weihrauch; its in .22.
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Yogi
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #3 on:
October 09, 2018, 09:44:03 AM »
What HW model do you have?
Take the spring out and measure the OD, ID, thickness of spring wire and length. Air Rifle Headquarters or Vortec should have something similar.
While you are at it, order a bunch of spare piston seals and breech seals.
I bet you have a bad piston seal.
Use a spring compressor!
let us know what you do...
-Y
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes not.
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Mossonarock
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #4 on:
October 10, 2018, 09:55:10 AM »
I have an HW97kt in .22 cal. I've only had it a couple weeks and I'm still evaluating pellets for accuracy. After getting my HW, I developed an appreciation for my Dominator as it really is a decent rifle. In comparing the two, I'd say that the Dominator is a wee bit more powerful than the HW, although I think the Dominator should be performing better. I've been thinking of writing up a comparison between the two rifles but I don't know where in GTA it would best to post it. Really though, I'd like to see an unbiased comparison between the two be made in a youtube video.
I may start with replacing the spring in the Dominator with another spring. Then continue to ask around about going from spring to gas. That Brazilian youtube video made it clear that it only takes a couple minutes to switch out the spring in the Dominator.
I'll definitely post what I do and whatever details I can.
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Mossonarock
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #5 on:
October 16, 2018, 09:30:37 AM »
I got a spring compressor yesterday and disassembled the gun. The breech seal was shredded. The piston seal looks like it had a couple edges shaved off of it. The spring had some kinks in it. So, I'll be replacing those. I wonder how many years this rifle sat in a warehouse waiting to be sold.
I took measurements of the spring.
Spring length: 11 5/8 inch (295mm) with 41 coils
Spring ID: 1/2 inch (12.6mm)
Spring OD: 3/4 inch (19.10mm)
Wire diameter: 0.126 inch (3.22mm)
The inside of the piston where the spring goes is 0.858inch (21.8mm)
Taking the measurements was difficult since the spring was so bent out of shape.
Those numbers I provided are averages.
I'm waiting on hearing back from Vortex to see which spring they recommend. I haven't sourced a gas piston but it looks like it should be easy to place a gas piston in the rifle. Considering the price of the springs and the ease of disassembling the gun, I may try a couple springs to see what I get the best performance from.
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rabbitguy
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #6 on:
October 16, 2018, 04:48:39 PM »
Have you checked the compression chamber, if it's two piece design, it should have a oring installed to seal the chamber. Mine did not have that oring, fps increased some after installing it.
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Mossonarock
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Posts: 859
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #7 on:
October 17, 2018, 10:43:11 AM »
I'm pretty sure its a one piece design. I tried messing with it and nothing would budge.
I put in an order to Vortek for 3 springs just to explore the different performance characteristics because why not.
125 Wire spring 780/785OD
128 Wire spring 825OD
135 Wire Spring 825 OD
All of these springs have an OD larger than the OEM spring. However, there should be plenty of room since the ID of the piston is 0.858inch.
I'm hoping that the larger diameters will also reduce the chances of the spring developing kinks.
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rabbitguy
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #8 on:
October 17, 2018, 05:21:47 PM »
Lucky, both of mine were a two piece design and hard to separate.
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Gut2Fish
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #9 on:
October 17, 2018, 08:16:24 PM »
Keep in mind that the OD of a spring increases as it's compressed. If you can halt the order, I would, and get what you need from air rifle headquarters. It's a one stop shop for your tune. Spring, seals, moly paste and heavy tar.
Heavy tar is what is used to smooth out the spring, rid it of the twang, and generally make it feel like gas piston. His moly paste is the best on the market, a drop of that here and there is all you need- metal to metal lube so used in trigger, pivot and anywhere there is metal to metal motion.
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm
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Mossonarock
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Sharp Shooter
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #10 on:
October 24, 2018, 09:18:21 AM »
The Vortek springs are already delivered. I'm still waiting on the seals from HatsanUSA. The USPS has botched up the delivery and trucking the package all over the continent according to the tracking information. Sometimes, slow shipping is NOT the retailers' fault....
The springs fit in the piston with some play. I haven't tried them yet to see if they work since I'm still waiting on the seals. I'm sure that the 125 Wire spring 780/785OD will work just fine since its essentially exactly the same as what came with the rifle. The other two 825OD springs will just have to see.
Messing with these springs is a learning experience for me.
After I get the ideal specs figured out for a spring for my rifle, I'll try ordering a custom one from ARH if that's possible. Vortek didn't send me springs with the coil count I asked for. They say they do that and I asked but they didn't deliver. The springs are inexpensive enough that I'm not really concerned. Sending them back is way too much trouble for me for the cost.
BTW: Rabbitguy, thanks for providing that picture. I've been wondering what people mean by "there's a space where an o-ring goes." since mine apparently doesn't have such a space. Perhaps I'll try posting a pic of my compression chamber.
«
Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 09:23:23 AM by Mossonarock
»
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Yogi
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #11 on:
October 24, 2018, 06:42:18 PM »
A proper fitting spring guide should eliminate the spring canting.
-Y
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Mossonarock
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Sharp Shooter
Posts: 859
~~~
Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #12 on:
October 25, 2018, 09:23:43 AM »
The kinks in the OEM spring are only on the portion of the spring that was above the spring guide. The portion of the spring being guided by the spring guide remained straight. That's why I figured there was way more clearance between the OD of the spring and the ID of the piston wall than there really needed to be. Also, that's why I figured it would be ok to go with a larger OD spring and I beleive I was correct about that.
The seals finally came in yesterday and I got my rifle put back together. By that time it was dark, so no chrony testing. I hope to do that today.
However, I put in the 128 Wire spring 825OD since its the mid sized spring of the three I bought and it seems to work just fine. Remember, the 0.825"OD spring is only 0.075" larger than the OEM spring. I shot a few pellets out the window and into the dark. Shot cycle seemed smooth. So I guess there was enough clearance for the wider OD. So, it appears that 0.025" is enough clearance between the spring and the inner wall of the piston. Whew....
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Yogi
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #13 on:
October 25, 2018, 05:13:57 PM »
Some people sleeve their pistons to take up that extra room-and to prevent the spring from coming into contact with the piston wall. Aluminum cans or soda bottles are what a lot of people use.
Tell use how she shoots! Of course if the springs have different ID's, then they might each need a different top hat and spring guide.
-Y
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Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
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RWS LP8 Magnum,
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Yogi
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7439
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Real Name: Yogi
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #14 on:
October 25, 2018, 08:54:26 PM »
Forgot to mention that some people, Hector Medina included, believe that a larger ID/OD spring lasts longer. This is due to the steel grain structure and the less tight bend. HM and his website is a great resource BTW.
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog
Keep us posted...
-Y
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Jeff Marshall
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Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #15 on:
October 25, 2018, 11:24:50 PM »
You are kinda going about this backwards.
If you are low on power, the first step is to make sure it is sealed...that it has a good breech seal, and a good, properly fitting piston seal.
A replacement spring is chosen by wire diameter, number of coils, and
spring guide diameter. You want a snug to tight fit on the guide. You don't want to select a spring that is as large in diameter as possible. Uncompressed spring length is unimportant, spring vendors do not even list this figure.
One fellow in this thread said his healthy well sealed gun in .177 shoots 800-850ish fps with mid weight pellets, so your gun in .25 should shoot about 500 fps with 25 grain pellets.
650 fps with 25 grain pellets is not a realistic goal.
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Mossonarock
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Sharp Shooter
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #16 on:
October 26, 2018, 10:44:32 AM »
jmars: I'm not "doing this backwards". However, you aren't reading my posts very well. Replacing the seals is something I did and I stated that. So, please save your lectures. Besides, its my rifle and I can tinker with it any way I want to with or without your approval. My .25 cal Hatsan Edge pushes 25gr pellets at about 570fps. My Dominator was 450 with the exact same pellet. That's what this tuning is about. I'm just trying to get the performance up to manufacturer's specs since Hatsan didn't want to honor their warranty with me. If I can exceed manufacturer's spec and retain accuracy, even better but that's not my purpose here.
Yogi: I'll tend to to agree that larger OD/ID springs are likely to last longer. I'm glad that this wider spring seems to work fine.
So, I managed to do some testing with the chrony yesterday. The catch is that my before tuning tests were outdoors and the chrony was about 15 or so feet from the muzzle. The after tuning tests were conducted indoors with they chrony at about 8 feet from the muzzle. So, a casual observation will lead one to believe that the improvements are more than they really are.
I did get to shoot the Predators a few times outside before it got too dark. I'd say that fps difference between inside and outside testing distance led to a 20fps difference in the avg fps measured. These are the after tuning chrony results:
Predator GTO 16.54gr avg fps: 641 <-outside
Predator GTO 16.54gr avg fps: 668 <- inside
H&N Barracuda Green 19.91gr avg fps: 585
H&N Excite Coppa Spitzkugel 24.54gr avg fps: 531
Air Arms Diabolo Field 25.4 gr avg fps: 550
Prior to the tuning, the follow is the chrony results I got:
Predator GTO 16.54gr avg fps: 608
H&N Barracuda Green 19.91gr avg fps: 549
H&N Excite Coppa Spitzkugel 24.54 gravg fps: 486
Air Arms Diabolo Field 25.4gr avg fps: 447
So, I might have gotten an improvement of about 20-30fps. I attribute the improvement to replacing the seals. I don't think that the spring I put in was significantly more powerful. Even though it is made from a thicker wire, it only has 35 coils. The OEM spring had 41 coils. So, I think it evened out. In fact, with the OEM spring I had to use two hands to cock the rifle. With the 128 Wire spring 825OD that I put in, I could cock the rifle with one hand on the cocking lever. So, easier cocking and slightly more fps. I'd say that much of the tune has been a success. Next will be to try the 135dia wire spring.
However, the Air Arms pellet showed a huge improvement and honestly I'm scratching my head over that one.
«
Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:15:21 AM by Mossonarock
»
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Mossonarock
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Sharp Shooter
Posts: 859
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #17 on:
October 29, 2018, 09:48:48 AM »
I chrony tested the 135 Wire Spring 825 OD last weekend. This spring was significantly stronger than the 128. I could cock the rifle with one hand but two hands was easy, which is sort of how the OEM spring was. The rifle was louder and the pellet obviously hit the target much harder. The sound was almost too much for my ears. I don't think I'd want to go with a stronger spring. So, I'll consider this one to be an upper limit for my rifle.
Predator GTO 16.54gr avg fps: 696
H&N Barracuda Green 19.91gr avg fps: 632
Excite Coppa-Spitzkugel 25.54gr avg fps: 542
Air Arms Diabolo Field 25.4gr avg fps: 523
H&N Barracuda 30.86gr avg fps: 484
When comparing these numbers to the 128 spring, it looks like a mixed bag of tricks. Whereas the Predator pellets showed an increase in fps, the Air Arms appeared to have been slower. A new pellet I tried with this spring is the 30.86gr Barracudas. They were a new tin that I hadn't even opened before. I wanted to see how fast this rifle could push a 30gr pellet. Considering the chrony numbers I'm getting with all these springs, I'm thinking that Hatsan may have used a 20 gr pellet for their testing from which they obtained their advertised fps numbers. So, I think that will be the weight of pellet I'll try to focus on with this rifle.
I put a scope on the rifle to begin sighting it in. However, its too soon to speak conclusively if I can get acceptable accuracy with this spring. I have too many other things to also work out- like setting up a stable bench to shoot from... I suspect though that I'm going to have a hard time getting accuracy with the 135 spring. It took me awhile before I could shoot accurately in the first place with the OEM spring. For now, my opinion is that the 128 spring is about as close to ideal as I can get for this rifle.
If I try any more springs in this rifle, I'd try the 125 and 128 with 40 coils.
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Mossonarock
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #18 on:
November 01, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
I've continued to use the 135 wire spring and it seems to be loosening up a bit. Now, I'm able to cock it with only one hand on the cocking lever. I'm also hitting my plinking targets and spinners 100% of the time at 25-30 yards. I think I'll leave this spring in for awhile longer, maybe shoot a tin of pellets or so, then chrony test it again. By then, I ought to have a handle on accuracy for what its worth.
I tried contacting Air Rifle Headquarters about having a spring made and they said they won't custom make one-off springs. However, Vortek has a 128 wire spring with 40 coils and I'm not sure how I missed that. I may consider trying that one too.
I hope this experience is useful to other people than just me. I've just been wanting to share my experiences with tinkering with the Dominator since there isn't much I could find on the net.
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Mossonarock
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Sharp Shooter
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Real Name: Tim
Re: Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?
«
Reply #19 on:
November 10, 2018, 01:27:44 PM »
I chrony tested the 0.135 spring again and indeed something changed. It looks like avg fps dropped by about 20-30 fps after shooting a tin of pellets.
Predator GTO avg fps: 657
Barracuda Green avg fps: 613
Coppa Spitzkugel avg fps: 504
AA Diabolo Field avg fps: 508
H&N Barracuda 30.86gr avg fps: 468
The accuracy of the 0.135 spring was fine for plinking out to 75 yards. I don't have space to shoot further. However, its not going to win FT competitions in my hands anyway. Not that I care about winning FT comps but you know what mean.
So, switched out the springs and put the 0.128 back in. Immediately I felt the difference. Smoother shot cycle. Pellet on pellet accuracy at 10yards. This afternoon, I'll get outside and try accuracy at longer ranges. Already though, its way easier to hit my plinking targets out the window. The sound of the shot cycle is a pleasant thump with barely noticeable twang but I do have a DonnyFl suppressor on it. When I switched out the springs, I also installed a Vortek tophat and a metal spacer for the spring. This rifle didn't have those items. I'm sure it increased the pre-load on the spring. Dunno if that would help any. I'm still a learner.
Here's chrony results for the 0.128 spring with the new bits:
Predator GTO avg fps: 676
Barracuda Green avg fps: 613
Coppa Spitzkugel avg fps: 535
AA Diabolo Field avg fps: 511
Barracuda 30.86gr avg fps: 472
I find it interesting that there's generally an increase in fps with the 0.128 spring. However, there's the exception of the Barracuda Greens and the AA Diabolo Fields. I can tell when I'm shooting those two pellets that this rifle doesn't particularly like them. They are also my less accurate pellets. I'm kinda disappointed a bit that the Barracuda Greens are less accurate because they are a 20gr pellet. 20gr pellets are what I want to focus on using for this rifle since I still believe that's the ideal pellet weight for this rifle. On the other hand, I tend to get great accuracy with the Predator GTOs which are 16.54gr. The 30gr Barracudas are just too heavy for this rifle. I don't recommend pellets any heavier than 25gr for the Dominator.
If anyone knows of any aftermarket piston seals and breech seals for the Dominator, I'd be happy to take a peak. I'll admit the OEM seal was a bit worrisome with a thin, feathered edge to it from the extrusion process. I didn't bother trying to shave it down.
Also, if anyone knows of a pellet seater for underlevers, I'd like to take a look at that too. The barrel breech is a bit wide and I'm sure I'm probably losing a bit of fps from that.
«
Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 01:34:14 PM by Mossonarock
»
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Replacing Dominator 200 spring with gas piston?