GTA

All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: 45flint on September 18, 2022, 10:39:23 AM

Title: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 18, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
There were 3 airguns that come up for auction all at the same time that really interested me.  I managed to get 2 of them.  Both in crazy good condition a Diana 30 Military trainer and a FLZ Favorit XX both late 1930’s. One came the day I left for vacation and one arrived the day I got back.  Today its out to the backyard range.

(https://i.imgur.com/6k3eOOM.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: BanjomanMI76 on September 18, 2022, 10:42:20 AM
Would love to hear how they shoot Steve.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: NeverEnough on September 18, 2022, 11:17:37 AM
Those are awesome - really hard find vintage guns in that condition
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 18, 2022, 02:29:36 PM
I like that Langenham.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 18, 2022, 02:36:47 PM
I like that Langenham.

Way too many pics. Lol. One of the nicest prewar rifles I own.

https://imgur.com/a/wMxTiRX
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: CaptJ on September 18, 2022, 09:15:05 PM
Beautiful buys! I too look forward to hearing how they shoot. Always curious how they compare to their contemporaries too. :)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 19, 2022, 01:06:13 PM
Out shooting the Diana model 30.  One of the only German Military trainers that shoots regular pellets. Extremely accurate but a little over 400 FPS with 7 grain pellets.

(https://i.imgur.com/htEVb62.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 19, 2022, 08:18:10 PM
I like that Langenham.

Way too many pics. Lol. One of the nicest prewar rifles I own.

https://imgur.com/a/wMxTiRX
That's a handsome rifle.
An Original V millita style with a different trigger block and full length stock? ..........For the dyslexic airgunners, I did not say militia!
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 19, 2022, 11:11:07 PM
I like that Langenham.

Way too many pics. Lol. One of the nicest prewar rifles I own.

https://imgur.com/a/wMxTiRX
That's a handsome rifle.
An Original V millita style with a different trigger block and full length stock? ..........For the dyslexic airgunners, I did not say militia!

Yes its the Original V with a side lever instead of underneath and full stock.  This example was a late 1930’s so improved trigger adjustable with screw on top of cylinder rather than screw on trigger guard.  I think polish and bluing the best of the era.

(https://i.imgur.com/tLJT42d.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: Air Head on September 19, 2022, 11:40:35 PM
That sounds like a great Vacation Sandwich.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 20, 2022, 07:09:21 AM
Beautiful buys! I too look forward to hearing how they shoot. Always curious how they compare to their contemporaries too. :)

Chronied the XX and its at 8.5 FPE in 22.  That is hitting pretty hard for the era.  Not sure I have any prewar rifle hitting harder?  Extremely accurate and was zeroed in right from the start.  The fine bead and back sight are as well machined as any rifle I have.  Makes for a excellent shooting rifle.  It could very well have been the finest rifle of its day? 
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: Wayne52 on September 20, 2022, 07:14:21 AM
Very cool rifles Steve !!!
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 19Sheridan57 on September 20, 2022, 07:39:33 AM
   Very nice rifles !
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 20, 2022, 10:47:14 AM
Beautiful buys! I too look forward to hearing how they shoot. Always curious how they compare to their contemporaries too. :)

Chronied the XX and its at 8.5 FPE in 22.  That is hitting pretty hard for the era.  Not sure I have any prewar rifle hitting harder?  Extremely accurate and was zeroed in right from the start.  The fine bead and back sight are as well machined as any rifle I have.  Makes for a excellent shooting rifle.  It could very well have been the finest rifle of its day?
The last 1906 BSA Air Rifle I rebuilt makes 8.6 and it has some issues in the cylinder bore.
(http://)
I'll have to chrono some of my BSA prewar (Pre WWI) Sporting patterns. I think I can get 10 or11. Pretty sure a 1919- 39 Long Tom can do it as well. You would think I would have done this already, but.......
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 20, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Beautiful buys! I too look forward to hearing how they shoot. Always curious how they compare to their contemporaries too. :)

Chronied the XX and its at 8.5 FPE in 22.  That is hitting pretty hard for the era.  Not sure I have any prewar rifle hitting harder?  Extremely accurate and was zeroed in right from the start.  The fine bead and back sight are as well machined as any rifle I have.  Makes for a excellent shooting rifle.  It could very well have been the finest rifle of its day?
The last 1906 BSA Air Rifle I rebuilt makes 8.6 and it has some issues in the cylinder bore.
(http://)
I'll have to chrono some of my BSA prewar (Pre WWI) Sporting patterns. I think I can get 10 or11. Pretty sure a 1919- 39 Long Tom can do it as well. You would think I would have done this already, but.......

Would be interesting to know what was the power with orginal springs?  I think these early BSA are rebuilt and often powered up?
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: oldair on September 20, 2022, 05:42:06 PM
A couple things:
1. That side-release Original V in the catalog was available in "other calibers on request", and options included a 2-stage trigger or DST.

2. As to power output for old BSA's, years ago I chrono'd two minty ones.  A pre-WWI 'Standard' .22 as-received made 10 ft-lb with Meisterkugeln, and a post-WWI 'Standard' .22 that I cleaned and re-lubed made 11 ft-lb with Hobbys.  A couple other well-used examples were much lower.

Don R.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 20, 2022, 06:29:55 PM
A couple things:
1. That side-release Original V in the catalog was available in "other calibers on request", and options included a 2-stage trigger or DST.

2. As to power output for old BSA's, years ago I chrono'd two minty ones.  A pre-WWI 'Standard' .22 as-received made 10 ft-lb with Meisterkugeln, and a post-WWI 'Standard' .22 that I cleaned and re-lubed made 11 ft-lb with Hobbys.  A couple other well-used examples were much lower.

Don R.

Good German reading!  The optional 2 stage trigger would make sense given an example in the “Gallery” with a serial number less than 20 away from mine had a trigger with the screw adjustment on the trigger guard (single stage). 

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/flz-friedrich-langenhan/flz-favorit-xx-air-rifle/
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 20, 2022, 09:50:09 PM
I've seen dual replacement springs in BSA underlevers that are so stiff that the gun is very hard to cock. That's way too hard on the linkage. I just took them out and shelfed them. HW50 springs are about right. Airsporter/Mercury springs are good too. Good for the 45 inch Sporting patterns and Long Toms. Cut a few coils off for a 43 1/2 inch gun. There shouldn't be too much preload to screw the back block on without much effort. Same for light and ladies pattern (39" guns).
    You have to be specific when mentioning a "Standard". That meant 6 or more different models depending on the era. The first "Standards" were 43 inch .177. You only had the Ladies model .177 and the Standard size 43" .177 at that time.

See the rearsight on the Langenham? That "turret" sight is BSA copied. Everybody copied it. It first appeared on a BSA 22 rimfire before BSA used it on their 1919 and later underlevers. Eventually  it appeared (slight changes)on the MkI Airsporter and Cadet Major.

The first sight like this was the "Cash Register" sight on the 1904 Lincoln Jeffries "H the Lincoln" and 1906 "BSA Air Rifle". Later enlarged to the No. 10 as seen on the Improved Model D's. Then updated again for 1919. That's the version so often copied. I think the last gun to use it (very similar version) was the MkIII Webley up till 1975.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 1900colt on September 21, 2022, 12:00:45 AM
Very nice looking guns Steve...congratulations on those finds!
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 21, 2022, 08:12:49 AM
I've seen dual replacement springs in BSA underlevers that are so stiff that the gun is very hard to cock. That's way too hard on the linkage. I just took them out and shelfed them. HW50 springs are about right. Airsporter/Mercury springs are good too. Good for the 45 inch Sporting patterns and Long Toms. Cut a few coils off for a 43 1/2 inch gun. There shouldn't be too much preload to screw the back block on without much effort. Same for light and ladies pattern (39" guns).
    You have to be specific when mentioning a "Standard". That meant 6 or more different models depending on the era. The first "Standards" were 43 inch .177. You only had the Ladies model .177 and the Standard size 43" .177 at that time.

See the rearsight on the Langenham? That "turret" sight is BSA copied. Everybody copied it. It first appeared on a BSA 22 rimfire before BSA used it on their 1919 and later underlevers. Eventually  it appeared (slight changes)on the MkI Airsporter and Cadet Major.

The first sight like this was the "Cash Register" sight on the 1904 Lincoln Jeffries "H the Lincoln" and 1906 "BSA Air Rifle". Later enlarged to the No. 10 as seen on the Improved Model D's. Then updated again for 1919. That's the version so often copied. I think the last gun to use it (very similar version) was the MkIII Webley up till 1975.

The BSA Standard I have is a 1920’s, got some miles on it but in very good shooting condition.  One of my favorite air rifles is my 1919 BSA Light.  These are the rifles that started it all and were copied in so many ways.  As shooting rifles they are very hard to beat even now.  If I had to hit a target I would take out my Light with its aperature sight over any rifle I own.  But to me the best made prewar rifle has always been the Diana 58 2nd model.  A copy of the BSA but with a full stock, superior machining and bluing finish.  This XX actually rivals it.  I didn’t really expect that. I really think the Diana was the rifle that was pushing their design. I think its machining is just a small step above the Diana and the finish and bluing is as well. Quality of the stocks equal.  It has more power as well in a less beast of a riflle. Lol. The BSA finish is just not comparable. 
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 21, 2022, 07:25:43 PM
A reproduction K98 sling fits the Diana 30 perfectly, ready for battle. 

(https://i.imgur.com/t3y0S0X.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WGrpkxE.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on September 21, 2022, 09:09:32 PM
Steve... you do know of course I am green with envy.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 21, 2022, 10:33:04 PM
58's are a gorgeous rifle. Rare as rocking horse dung. Copy of the BSA but has a full stock? BSA had already been there and done that(1907). Mine is later.  BSA is not finished or polished as well. Real nice polish came after WW2 with the 1948 Airsporter MkI. BSA's greatest purpose was military contracts to build Enfields as far back as the 1860's. That's why the airgun blueing was military grade. The Military Pattern was to be a military trainer but was never adopted. The value of a Mil Pat is sky high. $1000's for one. I don't know the value of a 58. Somebody know?
(http://)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 21, 2022, 11:04:55 PM
58's are a gorgeous rifle. Rare as rocking horse dung. Copy of the BSA but has a full stock? BSA had already been there and done that(1907). Mine is later.  BSA is not finished or polished as well. Real nice polish came after WW2 with the 1948 Airsporter MkI. BSA's greatest purpose was military contracts to build Enfields as far back as the 1860's. That's why the airgun blueing was military grade. The Military Pattern was to be a military trainer but was never adopted. The value of a Mil Pat is sky high. $1000's for one. I don't know the value of a 58. Somebody know?


I think you are underestimating the value of a BSA Mil Pat last one I saw went for $3000!  A nice 2nd pattern 58 I think could go for $1000?

Tested out my three prewar German rifles together today.  Diana 58, Haenel 3, and the XX.  The Diana is just a beast so heavy and for all it’s mass and sound 7.6 FPE.  Same as the Haenel 3. The XX at 8.6.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jtk9Xu3.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 22, 2022, 07:38:18 AM
Double post
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: CaptJ on September 22, 2022, 09:30:48 AM

I think you are underestimating the value of a BSA Mil Pat last one I saw went for $3000!  A nice 2nd pattern 58 I think could go for $1000?

Tested out my three prewar German rifles together today.  Diana 58, Haenel 3, and the XX.  The Diana is just a beast so heavy and for all it’s mass and sound 7.6 FPE.  Same as the Haenel 3. The XX at 8.6.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jtk9Xu3.jpg)

What a beautiful trifecta! Makes sense the Diana is the heaviest with the machined underlever. I assume it probably has the softest shot cycle? Any significant difference noted in the triggers?
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 22, 2022, 10:42:50 AM
$1000's. means thousands of dollars.
Please stop! You're going to make me start collecting again! I finally cooled my tool.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 22, 2022, 11:59:30 AM

I think you are underestimating the value of a BSA Mil Pat last one I saw went for $3000!  A nice 2nd pattern 58 I think could go for $1000?

Tested out my three prewar German rifles together today.  Diana 58, Haenel 3, and the XX.  The Diana is just a beast so heavy and for all it’s mass and sound 7.6 FPE.  Same as the Haenel 3. The XX at 8.6.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jtk9Xu3.jpg)

What a beautiful trifecta! Makes sense the Diana is the heaviest with the machined underlever. I assume it probably has the softest shot cycle? Any significant difference noted in the triggers?

Actually the Diana is the closest thing you can shoot that’s like a musket!  You pull back the knob to cock the trigger, that assembly pushed the barrel further out. It has the longest cylinder so there is a lot of air pushing through the .177 hole?  It’s the loudest and to me hard to hold on target.  The other 2 have excellent triggers. Easy to zero.
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 23, 2022, 12:17:54 AM
So the bolt accomplished that on the MkI? Cocked the trigger?
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: 45flint on September 23, 2022, 08:48:23 AM
So the bolt accomplished that on the MkI? Cocked the trigger?

Yes the first model Diana 58 was designed as a military trainer and the bolt cocked the trigger.  Would love to add one of these to my collection but probably as rare or rarer than a BSA Military.  In the second model they changed it to a “bolt” you pull straight back. The second model was designed as a target rifle for German clubs and this was thought to add a safety factor so the rifle could be cocked but not ready to fire. The bolt releases like a firing pin.  Makes for a interesting collectable.  In the 3rd model it was left off and the rifle was cheapened at bit.  For those unfamiliar below are the three models of the 58.

(https://i.imgur.com/leSYcRa.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/hW0qWD6.jpg)
Title: Re: Two awesome prewar pickups
Post by: KWK on September 23, 2022, 10:51:36 AM
I must not let myself be overcome by lust! HA! They're beautiful rifles