GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Slugs/Solids/Bullets => Topic started by: notshootingbunnies on December 08, 2020, 11:01:08 PM
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Greetings!
With my bulldog, I have been shooting 115 grain NOE slugs (HP). I had not thought to powdercoat them, and was using PC specifically for PBS.
With my research into the topic for PBS, I discovered that powder coated bulled provided faster velocities compared to the “same mass” lubed lead bullets.
In all cases the powder coated bullets shot faster. I am not sure if the reason is because the mass of the bullet is different because of the difference in density and the volume of the powder coating vs pure lead, resulting in a lower mass, and higher velocity as a result.
In either case, the difference was fairly substantial- iirc, about 50 FPS difference between powder coated and lubed lead.
I’m wondering if anyone here has tested the velocity of powder coated cast slugs vs just cast slugs?
Best & thanks,
Jane.
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I powder coat all my cast bullets, but my 30 gr BTTs shoot great as cast, so I haven't bought any sizing bushings for them. I did try powder coating a few, but they were hard to chamber and shot slower. If they were sized, that may not be the case.
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I powder coat my bullets ranging from .257 to .575.
Ford Light Blue gives me the best coverage.
YouTube has a lot of good videos on the subject. Checkout ElvisAmmo, and FortuneCookie45LC.
Velocity is about the same as straight lead with 10weight silicone oil lube. I also lube the PC bullets and size them. A huge advantage of living and PC is the prevention of leading in big bores. This saves me substantial time cleaning barrels after a day of shooting.
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Yeah, I shoot pc slugs only, I just don’t have a velocity comparison for bare lead, no lube vs powder coated ones from airguns.
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38gr .215 slugs cut from .224 boolits. Shooting ok but need to open the sizing die .002.
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Powdercoating and sizing your big bore projectiles will eliminate all the leading and in most cases add 4 to 5% in velocity from reduced friction.
Some history for you. First I have not been in the airgun world much but now trying to learn all I can. My emphasis will be big bore in the beginning. Got a Sam Yang(Seneca) Dragon Claw 50 here now and a Texan 457 Ss CF on the way.
Also forgive me if I use some incorrect terms as agaIn I am new to the airgun world but a powderburner and reloader for over 40 years and a competitive shooter for many of those.
Now on to powdercoating. I have been selling Hi Quality NEW production PC powder all over the world for over 6 years now and have literally thousands of customers who will back up what I say.
Follow the proper application instructions, then proper sizing to bore and you WILL reap the benefits.
Sizing is a simple as a push thru sizer from Lee Precision or a NOE molds sizing kit.
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Powdercoating and sizing your big bore projectiles will eliminate all the leading and in most cases add 4 to 5% in velocity from reduced friction.
Some history for you. First I have not been in the airgun world much but now trying to learn all I can. My emphasis will be big bore in the beginning. Got a Sam Yang(Seneca) Dragon Claw 50 here now and a Texan 457 Ss CF on the way.
Also forgive me if I use some incorrect terms as agaIn I am new to the airgun world but a powderburner and reloader for over 40 years and a competitive shooter for many of those.
Now on to powdercoating. I have been selling Hi Quality NEW production PC powder all over the world for over 6 years now and have literally thousands of customers who will back up what I say.
Follow the proper application instructions, then proper sizing to bore and you WILL reap the benefits.
Sizing is a simple as a push thru sizer from Lee Precision or a NOE molds sizing kit.
I've been casting and shooting soft lead boolits for a long time. Powder coat acts like a jacket, but doesn't add hardness or friction. I don't know who decided to try it first, but it has allowed me to do things I never thought possible with cast lead.
Welcome to the airgun world Mr. Smoke. We're glad to have you.
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Not sure who started it exactly either but a fellow who goes by bangrerjim claims credit for the shake and bake or dry tumble method.
I picked it up early and posted a lot of testing results for velocity gains/lack of leading/ and forget BHN.
At first I was called every name in the book till other started to try and prove me wrong.
Now that's all proven correct and many many lubers have converted to pc.
It eliminates so many issues. Now you don't worry how hot or cold it is to pick which lube to use. Bullets will store forever in exact same condition. No lube to clean out of dies or gun or fingers. Or bullet storage boxes.
Oh and your bore will be as clean after shooting 200 bullets as you started
Just so so many advantages
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SMOKE! Welcome aboard!
Powdercoating and sizing your big bore projectiles will eliminate all the leading and in most cases add 4 to 5% in velocity from reduced friction.
Some history for you. First I have not been in the airgun world much but now trying to learn all I can. My emphasis will be big bore in the beginning. Got a Sam Yang(Seneca) Dragon Claw 50 here now and a Texan 457 Ss CF on the way.
Also forgive me if I use some incorrect terms as agaIn I am new to the airgun world but a powderburner and reloader for over 40 years and a competitive shooter for many of those.
Now on to powdercoating. I have been selling Hi Quality NEW production PC powder all over the world for over 6 years now and have literally thousands of customers who will back up what I say.
Follow the proper application instructions, then proper sizing to bore and you WILL reap the benefits.
Sizing is a simple as a push thru sizer from Lee Precision or a NOE molds sizing kit.
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Smokes clear is 'da bomb!
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I have bought PC from you Smoke. Good stuff. Ford Light Blue is the best Covering and least finicky color I’ve used yet. I have a desire for a good bright Orange but have yet to find one that gives good even coating.
Fouling was a problem with all my big bores till I started lubing with 10wgt Silicone Oil. Then I discovered PC and and got even better results. I will admit still using a light coat of silicone oil on my PC for even better results. I’m completely sold on PC.
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I've been buying my powder from a fellow named Grmps, but I've heard nothing but great things about Smoke's powders too.
If you like Ford light blue, try Eastwood squirrel gray. It's just as good. Mixing colors is addictive too. In order to keep things airgun related, I'll show some Daisy BBs I coated with a blend.
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Smoke4320,
The typical figure of 4-5% increase in velocity is the sort of information I was seeking. Thank you very much for your contribution!
Best,
Jane.
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Noshootbunnies.
The 4 to 5 % figure has been proven many times in powderburners. I am just getting into airguns and as of yet not tested for velocity increases at the slower airgun speeds.
I am sure there will be some increase because of reduced friction but how much I hope to determine in the somewhat near future.
First testing will be a Seneca Dragon claw with a just ordered Accurate Molds 180 grn and a TC 370 gr Maxi ball. Then as soon as they will ship my Airforce Texan 457 SS CF testing will be done with various 300 to 400 grn bullet/slugs
Just wast to be as up front as possible here
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I want to vouch for Smoke too. Bought 4 lbs of powder coat from him several years ago, not going to run out for a long time.
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So how do you edit a post here ? I must be missing something
nevermind I just found it
Thanks anyway
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So how do you edit a post here ? I must be missing something
nevermind I just found it
Thanks anyway
You have a short timeframe to edit your self then you will need to contact a mod.
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I switched to coated bullets recently, mostly for safer handling of bullets. I shoot 1000's of rounds per weekend so I started to get concerned of possibility of heavy metal issues. I tried powder coating but never got smooth beautiful bullets like the ford blue ones in the post above. So I went the hi tech coating route it seems easy enough and is less messy. The coating is tough and slick to the touch. Seem to be accurate also.
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Noshootbunnies.
The 4 to 5 % figure has been proven many times in powderburners. I am just getting into airguns and as of yet not tested for velocity increases at the slower airgun speeds.
I am sure there will be some increase because of reduced friction but how much I hope to determine in the somewhat near future.
First testing will be a Seneca Dragon claw with a just ordered Accurate Molds 180 grn and a TC 370 gr Maxi ball. Then as soon as they will ship my Airforce Texan 457 SS CF testing will be done with various 300 to 400 grn bullet/slugs
Just wast to be as up front as possible here
Interesting topic.
I have been "coating" my 36gr .25 cal slugs with teflon spray (I use TriFlow) and did notice a very slight increase in velocity. IIRC it was only about 10 fps. I assume that small increase is due to less air escaping around the sides of the slug, not less friction. Raw, soft lead is pretty slippery stuff. AFAIK, power burners use a pretty HARD lead, plus they leave other, nasty residue, wheres air rifles just have that nice, slippery stuff.
My chrony broke (I dropped it) so I can't re-test the TriFlow thing right now, but someone else surely can.
And results would probably differ with different ammo & different barrels, since they all have different fits.
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With the powder coating, I'd be interested if it affects accuracy at all:
Does it minimize the effects of the rifling, which are minimal to start with in a pcp gun?
Does it hurts the slug's ability to pass easily through the choke?
I'll be watching this thread with interest.
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I hope to be testing today the differences in both speed and accuracy of 3 different projectiles in pc'ed and plain lead.
This will be from a tethered 457 Texan.
When my 25 cal Airforce Condor 25 SS arrives I intend to repeat same pc'ed verses plain testing. In the 25 cal I only have 1 projectile to test at the moment plus will need to find the correct bore sizing die/bushing as well
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With the powder coating, I'd be interested if it affects accuracy at all:
Does it minimize the effects of the rifling, which are minimal to start with in a pcp gun?
Does it hurts the slug's ability to pass easily through the choke?
Quoting myself, as I'd still REALLY like to know.
Also -
Can I do this myself, to pre-made slugs, for a reasonable cost?
Can coated slugs be melted down & re-cast?
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Yes to all the above when resusing you have to smelt the power coating off like any other dirty lead.
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Yes to all the above when resusing you have to smelt the power coating off like any other dirty lead.
Thanks.
But then if it minimizes the rifling, and can hang in the choke, how is this a good idea?
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In a choke you will need to size for it after you PC your slugs. It will still engage the rifling as it should I missed that part sorry for confusion.
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Thanks.
But then if it minimizes the rifling, and can hang in the choke, how is this a good idea?
[/quote]
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There no evidence in PB'ers that it in anyway minimizes the rifling . In fact after reworking your load it is usually MORE accurate
I have a lot of testing to do with several big bore air guns before any I make any statements relative to big bore airguns.
Fired my first 44 gr HP powder coated slugs from a 25 cal Benjamin Marauder. There was no loss of accuracy at 50 yds.
In fact it was slightly better but again I need to fire many more groups before making judgements
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There no evidence in PB'ers that it in anyway minimizes the rifling . In fact after reworking your load it is usually MORE accurate
I have a lot of testing to do with several big bore air guns before any I make any statements relative to big bore airguns.
Fired my first 44 gr HP powder coated slugs from a 25 cal Benjamin Marauder. There was no loss of accuracy at 50 yds.
In fact it was slightly better but again I need to fire many more groups before making judgements
Thanks for the clarification. I was of course responding to @Insanity's response, which he has now corrected.
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I guess the PC keeps slug grime from building up in the barrel, which is really the only thing that needs to be cleaned.
Why do you suppose the accuracy improves? Is it just the above, or is it a more consistent drag in the air, or...... ?
Or is it just OVERALL accuracy, over time, due to the rifling not getting fouled as quickly?
Also, where can I see testing? I've read some older thread where users claimed PC decreased accuracy, even though velocity went up.
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In pb guns the pc acts like a jacket. Somewhere I have the hardness rating and can post Tuesday when I get back to the shop computer with all those files but iirc it's about 32 hrc. This eliminates any skidding from the softer lead stripping off the rifling .
It eliminates leading and buildup in general.
And now your lead hardness does matter nearly as much. You can shoot pure lead and 2% tin with PC at up to 1500 to 1600 fps
49/49/2 to about 2000 fps then WW, add a gas check PC and go to 3600 fps.
Makes casting so much simpler. No worrying about a specific bhn.
Of course proper bullet to bore fit is a must
I got on the PC bandwagon very early. Applied all I knew from my 1000 yd competition shooting and reloading days and setout to prove what PC can do for lead bullets.
In the beginning as I posted results I was called a lier a fraud ect very few believed me. Slowly as people tried it and followed my directions I was proved correct in EVERYTHING I had posted. 6 years later I have thousands of customers all over the world
It's now accepted as a go to for eliminating leading, increasing speed and accuracy.
If you want to see beginning to end there are 70 pages of posts here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241259-VS-Hi-quality-Powder-for-DT-or-Spraying-bullets. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241259-VS-Hi-quality-Powder-for-DT-or-Spraying-bullets.)
I post targets and all load data right on the target
My intention is to do the same with big bore airguns first because leading is an issue.
If all I can do is eliminate leading that's a huge help. If I get some speed/ accuracy increase that's a plus.
Then I will do the same with a 25 cal condor and a Marauder where I don't think leading is nearly as much of an issue.
Cast 300 MP 252 44 gr hp's for testing this morning
123 of those are in the oven now bring pc'ed
Had about 50 more I had done as a test batch earlier so that gives me approx 175 powdercoated and 175 uncoated.
Good base to start testing
Waiting on sizing dies and the Condor to arrive
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123 44gh hp army men ready to do my bidding
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Funny how the light will make a shadow on a 2nd bullet from the bullet in front of it.
Looks like a dent or seam when it's just a shadow. A photographer I am not
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This one was pure lead and one coat of PC. I've shot plenty of them with no leading.
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123 44gh hp army men ready to do my bidding
You and Grmps have both been hitting the od green. He posted some on Discord a day or so ago.
Hmmm... I think maybe those were yours that he posted. I see where he credited you in his post.
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Yes OD green has become one of my favorites.
Now that I am cooking them longer getting a sprayed like glass smooth finish
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EdinGa. Isn't great when a plan comes together. 2000+ with pure lead is awesome.
Congrats
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What did you squirt that out of?
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What did you squirt that out of?
Henry 357
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Yes OD green has become one of my favorites.
Now that I am cooking them longer getting a sprayed like glass smooth finish
I'm going to hit the trift stores for another oven. My little cheapie will only hit 360 degrees according to an oven thermometer. I'm getting a great bond with the lead but not a glassy finish.
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EdinGa. Isn't great when a plan comes together. 2000+ with pure lead is awesome.
Congrats
Thanks. James Pollard taught me just what was possible with powder coat. I don't shoot anything above 10 or 12 bhn anymore.
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This one was pure lead and one coat of PC. I've shot plenty of them with no leading.
2000 fps?
Am I still on an air gun forum?
Say WHAT?
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2000 fps?
Am I still on an air gun forum?
Say WHAT?
I posted that to back up what Smoke was saying about the benefits of powder coat. It wasn't shot from an air rifle.
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I'll add that I am just starting down this road myself.
HarborFreight PC - not working well for me.
Eastwood PC - red - working great with shake and bake, small nylon balls used in the shake process. Thought is that the nylon generates static which helps the PC cling to the lead.
Cheapo oven from Walmart, came with a rack and an "air bake" pan
Silicone or other nonstick baking sheet is a must have item!!! Allows the PC to melt under the base so you don't have a big rim around the bottom and no sticking.
Wash the lead with soap and water or a degreaser
Size after PC, easier on big bore than smaller sizes. I have a cheap Lee hand held press and their breach lock sizers in .357 and .358. Still testing which size my Bulldog likes best.
So far I've only used PC to increase the diameter of some .356 ammo, that worked well, and I've cast some Lee 356-125-2R. Waiting on a bigger Lyman 356637 mold to arrive, it 147 grains and slightly boat tail design and will probably get machined into hollow point to adjust the weight of the slugs. Everything I cast will be PC because casting makes everything harder, ever if you don't water quench it is harder. A 0.001 buffer of slippery plastic can only help get it down range.
Sorry, don't think I have any pictures. Also I have not tried to melt anything that has been reclaimed. I have read that the PC with stink and float on the top for skimming. I've also read that shooting into rubber mulch can be burned off the same way, best to do initial melt into bars outside. I can verify that rubber mulch leaves a mess of rubber on the coated slugs, not all of it can be wiped off so it will stink when you reclaim it into bars.
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The TGIC polyester powders seem to work best. Eastwood Ford light blue, and Eastwood squirrel gray are the easiest and best coating powders I've used. I have never heard of anyone having and luck with yellow no matter what company makes it.
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The TGIC polyester powders seem to work best. Eastwood Ford light blue, and Eastwood squirrel gray are the easiest and best coating powders I've used. I have never heard of anyone having and luck with yellow no matter what company makes it.
I too find yellow to be awful.
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anmy bright color will coat worse visually if only doing one coat. it will shot fine just not look appealing. Like trying to paint a black wall with 1 coat of white paint. You can see thru the light coated areas. dark colors 1 coat better visually
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anmy bright color will coat worse visually if only doing one coat. it will shot fine just not look appealing. Like trying to paint a black wall with 1 coat of white paint. You can see thru the light coated areas. dark colors 1 coat better visually
I just added blue and got an awesome green!
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My one attempt at PC was a dismal failure. I picked up both black and white PC at Harbor Freight to try PC for grins. Watched some YouTube videos and thought I would give it a go. Tried the black and about 40 slugs. Baked at 400 for 20 minutes. They were neither glassy nor completely covered looking. They stuck like glue to the aluminum foil I had them baking on. Tried baking both on flat foil and crinkled. Nope. Even worse they would not fit through my sizer without a huge amount of force that took off a third of what PC was on the things. In the end I popped them back into the lead pot and recast them. I can cast and swage decent slugs but it looks like I may not be cut out for PC
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Your first issue is harbor freight powder. It's the wrong formula to do dry tumble well.
Second you need to use non stick foil and let the bullets completely cool before trying to remove. When cool you can literally wave your hand lights hitting the tops of the bullets and they will tumble right over
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Non-stick silicone backing sheet and Eastwood powder. My HF stuff was a disaster and burned in the oven.
The oven I bought had an "airbake" cooking tray with it, not sure if that has helped but so far no coating coming off when I size, or when I shoot them through my Bulldog. I have not shot too many yet, but I'm gearing up as the weather gets more pleasant and I can go to the club.
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Agreed! Horrible-Fright is a spray only powder and even then, horrible.
Smokes clear is my personal recommendation or FORD blue if you want color. Shake-n-bake method by Elvis Ammo on YouTube will show you how it works.
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Clear is a great coating color as is Carolina Blue ( Ford Light Blue), signal blue (darker blue) sticks to anything, JD Green and OD Green, Flame Red are also wonderful coating colors. Just stay away from bright colors till you have the process down well.
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Clear is a great coating color as is Carolina Blue ( Ford Light Blue), signal blue (darker blue) sticks to anything, JD Green and OD Green, Flame Red are also wonderful coating colors. Just stay away from bright colors till you have the process down well.
After reading this post I may give Powder Coating a try, but a question ?
I plan on using it on 177cal slugs, will it increase the diameter a bit and in general how many thousands ? My slugs are .0005+ on the small side !
Would you use Eastwood clear as the easiest for someone who is just starting out ?
Thank you very much for your input - )
wll
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A single coat will be about 1 to 1.5 thousands 2 coats will get you 3 to 4 thousands
I would suggest Signal Blue . Its the stick to anything powder I have nut clear will also work fine
Of course I would suggest my powders not Eastwoods buts thats your choice
If you are interested in my powders contact me at smoke@paintballkingdom.com
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A single coat will be about 1 to 1.5 thousands 2 coats will get you 3 to 4 thousands
I would suggest Signal Blue . Its the stick to anything powder I have nut clear will also work fine
Of course I would suggest my powders not Eastwoods buts thats your choice
If you are interested in my powders contact me at smoke@paintballkingdom.com
Just sent you an email - )
wll
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A single coat will be about 1 to 1.5 thousands 2 coats will get you 3 to 4 thousands
I would suggest Signal Blue . Its the stick to anything powder I have nut clear will also work fine
Of course I would suggest my powders not Eastwoods buts thats your choice
If you are interested in my powders contact me at smoke@paintballkingdom.com
So that's at least 0.001 increase? Can you size those coated bullets back to original size?
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Yes Lee and NOE sells sizers or a well cleaned out Lyman/ RCBS lubesizer.
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A single coat will be about 1 to 1.5 thousands 2 coats will get you 3 to 4 thousands
I would suggest Signal Blue . Its the stick to anything powder I have nut clear will also work fine
Of course I would suggest my powders not Eastwoods buts thats your choice
If you are interested in my powders contact me at smoke@paintballkingdom.com
So that's at least 0.001 increase? Can you size those coated bullets back to original size?
One of the reasons I want to powder coat is to increase the dia a bit. The slugs I have that are .177 but need to be .178+ If this doesn't work I may start swagging my own, but it is expensive. I get my powder next week and we will see how it goes. I have an old oven, and the rest of the stuff I need, so by the end of next week I should have a few powder coated slugs to test.
wll
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I have used powder coat to increase some .356 up to .357 where my rifle wants them.
Sizing is as simple as running them through a Lee die with a hammer or press. The press is probably more accurate, but the hammer method works.
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Well I have my first ever powder coated slugs cooking, I'll take a pic when they come out, using Smoke's OD Green ;- )
Put powder in a plastic tea bottle along with a small handful of slugs and shook for about 3-5 minutes, gently yet with authority ;- ) laid slugs out on parchment paper and letting them cook for 20 minutes at 400 deg ... we will see what happens, Pic to follow - I have my fingers crossed ;- )
(https://photos.imageevent.com/wlleven/k10dtest/downloadphotos/Cooking%20Slugs%20sm.png)
wll
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what Dia and weight of the slugs.
if between 100 and 200 grns I would bump the time to 25 Minutes
if 200 to 300 Bump to 30 minutes and above 300 35 minutes .
You will get a much smoother surface finish
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Well here is my first try and they came out OK, learned a few things ... the slugs came up from .1775 to .1795 ---- that is just great and I think that will greatly improve the accuracy in the gun I'm using --- I will find out this weekend ;- )
These slugs weigh 17gr and are undersized for my Chief II Plus bore ---- not any more ;- )
Going to do a second batch right now ;- )
(https://photos.imageevent.com/wlleven/k10dtest/downloadphotos/Cooked%20Slugs%20sm.png)
wll
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Looking pretty good there . looking forward to your results shooting them
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Looking pretty good there . looking forward to your results shooting them
Smoke, thank you for all your help ;- )
wll
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Last batch for today, looking better than the first for sure - )
(https://photos.imageevent.com/wlleven/k10dtest/downloadphotos/Slugs%20Standing%20sm.png)
wll
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I'll be doing NSA 15gr 177 cal slugs tomorrow.
I'll do about 35+ea for velocity and accuracy testing. I'm really hoping they are accurate, as the extremely high BC will give me over 17fpe at 75 yatds if the powder coating boost my velocity about 35 fps. If not I can poop up the pop to send them out around 815fps.
All this is contingent on the slugs accuracy.
Time will tell
wll
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Just wondering how a #5 container compares to a #3 (PVC) containers for shaking. ? I did add air-soft BB's for more static electricity.
wll
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#5 was the only formula plastic we found to develop enough static to consistently work with dry tumble method.
Others would/ might work in some wether conditions but not in others
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#5 is polypropylene. My cool whip container is #5.
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correct Cool whip containers, lots of takeout containers (like many chinese soup containers), powdered creamer ect.
Be careful to use BOTH hand to hold down the lids on these containers as the bullets will open the lids easily and lots of powder will be airborne or on the floor
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If it’s been mentioned or asked, my apologies, I haven’t read all this. Would pc’ing be able to be mixed with dry abrasive media for making fire lapping bullets?
Dave
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Just did a batch of NSA 15gr Slugs (pic below, they are much nicer than they look in this pic) -- they measure ~.1775+ un-powder coated, after powder coating they measure .1795+, that is GREAT, as my Chief II Plus barrel is on the bigger side. The Griffin 17gr slugs now measure about .0015 larger also. I might add I'm surprised how hard the PC finish is !!!
I'm hoping the NSA slugs are now better than before, as NSA prices are very good on these and the consistency is very, very, very good. If these shoot as I hope, I will push them just a tad more to ~800 fps which will give me 17+ fpe at 75 yards ... that knocks my socks off for a 177 cal gun. If they do shoot as I hope I will shoot Eunjin 16.1 gr pellets (these are tack drivers in this gun) and NSA 15gr slugs ONLY in this gun --- I'll be down the road !!
(https://photos.imageevent.com/wlleven/k10dtest/downloadphotos/15gr%20Slugs%20PC%20sm.png)
wll
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Those look great. My 177 Stormrider really liked the 12.5gr NSAs. I just ordered the sample packs, to I need to order some more and try to powder coat them.
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Shot my powder coated slugs after work ---- Absolutly Horrible Results.
Set power setting where it should have been and gun was getting a velocity 150+ fps less then un-powdercoated slugs, not only that but I had smoke upon shooting about 1/4 of the time ---- never, never had that happen before. Accuracy cannot be used in the same sentence with all the powder coated slugs I tested ---That goes for the 15gr NSA and the two 17gr GRIFFIN slugs.
I don't think this gun likes powder coating or more like it " I DID SOMETHING WRONG" The slugs looked good, coating was nice ------ ?
I'm going shooting this weekend and the only ammo I'll be taking is the 16.1 gr Eunjin's and the 12.5gr NSA slugs as it stands now. I shot the 16.1gr Eunjin and the velocity was in the 785-801fps area, right where it should be. I very well may pump up the velocity even more on the 15gr slugs to see if that makes an accuracy difference ---- I may up it to ~850 fps and that goes for the 12.5gr also.
This really has me perplexed, I was really hoping it would be great.
This is not the first time I've been bummed out testing stuff and I'm sure not the last :-(
All your thoughts are welcome !
wll
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I shoot powder coated slugs out my .257 Texan, .257 Citrus, .458 DAQ and .58 DAQ. I have never seen smoke.
I do experience much less fouling and leading, and no more than four patches cleans my barrels after shooting all day.
I do start out with a clean barrel. Run a patch with Mpro7 to lube. I lube my pc bullets with 10 at RC silicone shock oil. I can shoot all day and no longer have miserable lead fouling.
Did you size your bullets after coating? Gotta do that as the PC adds to diameter.
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Lower velocity and smoking would generally point to slugs being to large ( increased friction) instead of lower friction.
Do you have the ability to size them?
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Nylon balls in the shaker? That's what I've been using to try and increase the static, so far, so good. Other people use airsoft ammo, but I ended up order some 5 or 6mm balls (don't remember the size).
Also in a #5 container.
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Who sells a 177cal sizer in the USA ?
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Just bought a 4.52 and a 4.53 from England ... who has them here in the USA.
I have not given up on the Powder Coated slugs yet - )
wll
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Would a #16 drill bushing work?
Dave
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Looks like NOE sizers for .177 will be too small for you. Plus the body part is out of stock
Of course I have had to start out with a too small bushing before and polish test and polish till I got what I needed . time consuming but it worked great
001 Push Through Size Die Body $39.95
Out of stock
17Cal Push Rod (17PR) quantity
0
17Cal Push Rod (17PR) $7.50
8 in stock
17Cal .172 Body Bushing (B172) quantity
0
17Cal .172 Body Bushing (B172) $9.75
4 in stock
17Cal .173 Body Bushing (B173) quantity
0
17Cal .173 Body Bushing (B173) $9.75
5 in stock
Mods I hope posting the above is OK. I have no business interest in NOE just trying to help a fellow shooter out
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I finally successfully powder coated some of my .357 slugs. Tried out the wet double application method I saw on YouTube using a little bit of lacquer thinner in the mix, baking, then repeating the process. Slugs came out beautiful even using the Harbor Freight powder. After cooling, lubing, and sizing they shot much better than non PC slugs of the same type and they weighed an average of 1.2 grains heavier. They also added about .002 in diameter.
Wet double application powder coated SWCs on the right in photo.
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I've been following this thread but so far there's no speed comparison of sized lead bullets vs. same sized coated bullets. It would be interesting to see how much the PC helps the speed in airguns, so far the data is just for powder burners.
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My testing got a little sidelined.
First I have never received the Airforce Condor 25 cal I ordered to do small bore cal testing. Was told 2 weeks then after that 4 more weeks then we are not sure when. Ordered a New FX Maverick 30 cal VP because that's what I could find in stock.
Well that turned into a month of getting what I received to actually be what I ordered. Wrong mag, wrong hammer weight. Leak and tuning issues. Finally got everything sorted out on the gun around Wed confirmed again Friday and Sunday that it will repeat. So now I am confident of velocity numbers are actually repeatable and correct.
Mold for it are going to be run in 2 weeks as soon as I get those I can return to velocity and accuracy testing. Also sent some 25 cal slugs both coated and uncoated to a well known member here so so independent testing.
Hopefully get their results in a week or so
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A few fps increase is all you can expect, not going to be a night and day difference. One person I know tried this compared to uncoated and coated, I think he got ~5fps though a 20 shot check of each in 25cal. I was having problems with my FX chrono so didn't do any of that testing the last time I was at the club to shoot. You could expect around the same increase from lubing all your lead ammo.
What you won't get from lubed lead is the lack of lead build up in the barrel that PC will give you. It also won't keep your hands clean while you load like PC will. And if you had undersized ammo (like .356) lube will not increase the size to better seal in the barrel like PC will. This last point was the thing that drove me to try PC, I had a bunch of .356 ammo and it didn't group, put some PC on it and sized to 357-358 which is where the gun is designed and it shoots better. I probably wouldn't try to make a bigger jump than 0.001 or 0.0015 undersize, not sure that the PC will hold the rifling if no lead is impressed into the grooves (something to test eventually?).
The last thing that might be an advantage is lead hardness. Some people have decided that they can use much harder lead in airguns as long as they PC and size. I have not tried this yet but is something I need to look into because it would open the door to recycle lead from the range. I need to check with my club to see if I can harvest some rounds from the berms and give this a try.
Now before someone comes in and says they are afraid because the PC might get stuck in the barrel... Remove the o rings from the barrel and run some acetone patches through to clean it, it will dissolve. And that's only IF this becomes a problem. This is one reason people use this coating in powder burners, you can run much faster speeds without leading the barrel. Since the slugs in an airgun as travelling at (generally) much lower speeds, shedding the PC should not be a problem. You can buy commercially produced PC ammo for powder burners, that should tell you something. If at all concerned, then buy the expensive coating made for firearms http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder-3-5-oz-container/ (http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder-3-5-oz-container/) I'm guessing that if you look really hard, you'll find that this stuff is the same as most of the premium powder coating materials, but if it helps you sleep better at night, go for it. PC lasts a LONG time in the shake n' bake container so $15 will probably do more than 1000 larger rounds (I don't have a good number yet as I am still getting started on casting my own stuff).
The last side effect is that the lead will be "encased" in a polymer after it gets planted in a berm. In theory this will help keep lead out of the environment. Since it is the most shaky of PC attributes, it may not be a real consideration.
Re-melting range scrap is another topic, and I don't have direct experience with this (yet). What I've read is that you should melt scrap outside because the PC will stink when it melts. Flux the liquid and skim off the dross same as normal, pour into ingots and move inside to cast new ammo. Go to the range and plant the seeds, maybe harvest them while you are there. Repeat.
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Greg_g is correct in most everything he has posted
I have been selling hi quality PC of nearly 7 years now and have customers worldwide.
The powder I sell is much much higher quality than Harbor freight, Also a different formula and lastly is the finest grain PC powder manufactured (that we know of)
1 LB of my powder will coat between 6000 and 8000 230 Grain 45 cal bullets so extrapolate from that on a 25 cal 23 to 30 grain probably 25,000 or more projectiles
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Jim,
What parts did I miss? Want to make sure that I am correct going forward and looking to learn what I can in this process.
So far my Eastwood has been really easy to work with in shake n' bake. Best thing I did was to put a silicone backing sheet (non-stick sheet) in the pan that came with my toaster oven. This lets the bases "cook" properly and not an issue pulling them off when they cool. Need to get another small batch prepared and do a video, people keep asking me how to do this and I keep telling them to go watch this video or that video... Need to just tell them to watch one that I make. Hoping to do this sometime this week.
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The pc is much harder than the lead so going as much as 004 larger is not an issue. When I get to the shop tomorrow I can look up the exact hardness but iirc it's like 35 Rockwell harness
The pc acts just like a copper jacket and this allows powder burners to vastly exceed what the are capable with with greased bullets and with softer lead to boot.
As far as velocity increase in airguns what I did see in testing big bore airguns was about 1/2 % fps increase ( this was very limited testing need to do much more). In powder burners fps increase is approximately 4 to 5%. Since airgun rifling is much thinner than powder burners the slickness of the pc is not providing as much fps gain. It will eliminate all leading and slugs will be the same condition 10 years from now as when coated.
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The pc is much harder than the lead so going as much as 004 larger is not an issue. When I get to the shop tomorrow I can look up the exact hardness but iirc it's like 35 Rockwell harness
The pc acts just like a copper jacket and this allows powder burners to vastly exceed what the are capable with with greased bullets and with softer lead to boot.
As far as velocity increase in airguns what I did see in testing big bore airguns was about 1/2 % fps increase ( this was very limited testing need to do much more). In powder burners fps increase is approximately 4 to 5%. Since airgun rifling is much thinner than powder burners the slickness of the pc is not providing as much fps gain. It will eliminate all leading and slugs will be the same condition 10 years from now as when coated.
I can report that I've push PC bullets over 2000 fps and with no issues. It sticks like glue. I have also dumped PC'd bullets back into the casting pot and the powder coat skin pops off and floats on top. Most of the time it keeps the form of the bullet. It's tough stuff.
I've been powder coating my .25 wadcutters then sizing them. They are shooting great in my Diana Bandit. I haven't chronographed them, but I do think my groups have tightened up a little.
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I have polished out the .173 NOE sizer to .178 Just a FYI
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Cool.... looking forward to your results
Please keep us updated
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A few fps increase is all you can expect, not going to be a night and day difference. One person I know tried this compared to uncoated and coated, I think he got ~5fps though a 20 shot check of each in 25cal. I was having problems with my FX chrono so didn't do any of that testing the last time I was at the club to shoot. You could expect around the same increase from lubing all your lead ammo.
Chrony results of PC vs non-PC slugs of same type in .357 here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186941.msg156147451#msg156147451 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186941.msg156147451#msg156147451)
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A few fps increase is all you can expect, not going to be a night and day difference. One person I know tried this compared to uncoated and coated, I think he got ~5fps though a 20 shot check of each in 25cal. I was having problems with my FX chrono so didn't do any of that testing the last time I was at the club to shoot. You could expect around the same increase from lubing all your lead ammo.
Chrony results of PC vs non-PC slugs of same type in .357 here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186941.msg156147451#msg156147451 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186941.msg156147451#msg156147451)
Interesting, did you PC those bullets after swaging or before, i.e. were the PC bullets the same size as non-PC bullets?
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The slugs were powder coated after swaging. Half were left uncoated and used straight from the .357 swage press, the other half were powder coated, lubed and sized through a .357 LEE die. The PC added approx 1 grain of weight.
I plan on doing some shooting tests tomorrow on my day off since I have new scope rings to sight in, and for that I just tested some of the coated slugs to see if they would survive a run through my swage press without removing the powder coating. They went through the press just fine. I haven't weighed them but I will tomorrow when I get ready to do some shooting. That way I can shoot slugs powder coated after swaging against slugs which have been swaged, powder coated, then swaged again.
The reason I ran some through the swage press tonight was because I have about a hundred slugs I double coated this morning with a different color PC (HF white) and they came out with an extra thick coating which was not fitting well into my magazine. So I popped 8 of them through the swage press again and they came out fine and now fit the magazine properly. After swaging the PC slugs they also feel almost like glass now.
I'm sure there are a lot of variations I can do for testing but my main goal is to see what I can do for accuracy, so tomorrow I plan on target shooting plain swaged lead slugs against swaged then PC slugs and reswaged PC slugs to see if there is any difference, at least as far as with my own rifle and choice of projectile. If one of the 3 different processes works better than the others then that is what I will stick with.
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The slugs were powder coated after swaging. Half were left uncoated and used straight from the .357 swage press, the other half were powder coated, lubed and sized through a .357 LEE die. The PC added approx 1 grain of weight.
I plan on doing some shooting tests tomorrow on my day off since I have new scope rings to sight in, and for that I just tested some of the coated slugs to see if they would survive a run through my swage press without removing the powder coating. They went through the press just fine. I haven't weighed them but I will tomorrow when I get ready to do some shooting. That way I can shoot slugs powder coated after swaging against slugs which have been swaged, powder coated, then swaged again.
The reason I ran some through the swage press tonight was because I have about a hundred slugs I double coated this morning with a different color PC (HF white) and they came out with an extra thick coating which was not fitting well into my magazine. So I popped 8 of them through the swage press again and they came out fine and now fit the magazine properly. After swaging the PC slugs they also feel almost like glass now.
I'm sure there are a lot of variations I can do for testing but my main goal is to see what I can do for accuracy, so tomorrow I plan on target shooting plain swaged lead slugs against swaged then PC slugs and reswaged PC slugs to see if there is any difference, at least as far as with my own rifle and choice of projectile. If one of the 3 different processes works better than the others then that is what I will stick with.
That 0.001-0.0015 extra diameter caused by powder coating easily reduces velocity some 10-30 fps depending on your barrel. I once saw a drop of 50 fps when the barrel on my .357 was badly leaded. My guess is that you'll gain velocity with reswaged PC slugs. What does your barrel slug at and what's the diameter of those bullets?
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I just got a report back from member here kenneth Bolton on some MP 252-46 HP slugs I cast and sized for him to test in a FX Maverick
all slugs were pure lead with 2% tin. they weighted 44 grains with the HP .sent approx 55 uncoated sized 250 and 55 coated sized 250 AFTER coating
Kenneth reports that the uncoated slugs shot at 930 FPS and the Coated Slugs at 940 FPS with no changes to the setting or regs.
so his testing shows a 10 FPS gain in 25 cal.
I will be sending him more slugs to test to confirm his results.
On my 30 cal FX Maverick with 600 MM barrel I took some NSA 47.2 Gr slugs and coated then resized to .300
Uncoated slugs shot at 950 avg and coated at 970 Avg. so a gain of 20 FPS and getting dime sized 13 shot (full mag) groups at 50 yds with loose hold. just got a new locking front rest so I expect next groups to be even tighter
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I've been powder coating the .25 wadcutter pellets I'm casting too. I need to do some testing with them and see if it makes a difference.
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Should spray some silicone lube on the bare lead pellets, I'm guessing the speeds will come up a little. But I also believe (still needs to be tested by me) that the slippery PC will help going down the barrel and probably easier to crush into rifling. I'm needing to cast a few new things to try and will make sure to leave a couple mags worth uncoated. But I also need to work out why my FX radar doesn't read all the time on this gun.
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Should spray some silicone lube on the bare lead pellets, I'm guessing the speeds will come up a little. But I also believe (still needs to be tested by me) that the slippery PC will help going down the barrel and probably easier to crush into rifling. I'm needing to cast a few new things to try and will make sure to leave a couple mags worth uncoated. But I also need to work out why my FX radar doesn't read all the time on this gun.
You will find that the barrel fouls much like wax lube does and even increases lead fouling. Try it and see what you get but it was a bust for me. Dry lead shoots better in my opinion.
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Hmmmm... I'm pretty sure the Benjamin Nosler have a lube on them from factory. Maybe I'll skip the raw lead and just PC everything I cast.
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Yes, some "lubes" dont actually lubricate, black powder is an example, they really dont lubricate as much as they keep the powder fouling soft.
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Not sure what I have going on but I hi Tek coated a bunch of my slugs for the 357 texan and it does not like it....groups are all over the place...I can throw the same un coated slugs in and pull it to a 1inch group?Can't figure it out as to why...only airgun doing this??
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Not sure what I have going on but I hi Tek coated a bunch of my slugs for the 357 texan and it does not like it....groups are all over the place...I can throw the same un coated slugs in and pull it to a 1inch group?Can't figure it out as to why...only airgun doing this??
Are you sizing them after coating?
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Yes sir.for some reason if I shoot a 5 shot string the 1st one is a some what flyer and high...next 3 are 3 inch group and the 5th is a flyer.been scratching my head!I take the same round w/out coating and put all 5 in a inch and a half.cant figure it out