GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Yng@hrt on July 29, 2018, 07:18:56 PM
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There was some discussion on another site about a very early Benjamin 312 that came with a full size box. The box has graphics of a hunting scene on the left & an indoor shooting gallery on the right. At the time of this discussion, seasoned Benjamin collectors/historians, including DT Fletcher had never seen the full length box, they had only seen the ½ box’s where the gun had to be disassembled for packaging.
If anyone can contribute additional information with regards to this early 40’s Benji please do. All I know is that it has the 2 piece bolt & flat head fasteners on the forearm grip.
Here's that gun (my latest acquisition). Should make it home this coming week.
Thanks!
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I'm sure you won't mind how much I hate you right now?
;) ;D
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I'm sure you won't mind how much I hate you right now?
;) ;D
If there's such a thing as an ok hate this would be it. ;)
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I'm sure you won't mind how much I hate you right now?
;) ;D
If there's such a thing as an ok hate this would be it. ;)
So I guess we invented the OK hate.
8)
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I saw that on ebay. Very nice gun. Congrats!
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Man your killing it with the new in box! You may want to post your box question on the American Vintage Airguns Forom. DT Fletcher is posting all the time there. The forum was old and kind of dying but is being brought back to life by a British Collector in the last year. Some of the old time collectors like DT are coming back, he’s been there posting at least weekly?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/americanvintageairguns/american-vintage-airguns-f405945/ (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/americanvintageairguns/american-vintage-airguns-f405945/)
If he does know then it’s probably unknown!
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a great buy, congrats . I still have to try a Benjamin 392 on my list for later this year.
I tried a Sharp Innova clone , less said the better >:(
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Steve, AVA is where I learned about this 312 & box. It’s nice to know its being revived.
The 312 is hard enough to find but the box is almost unheard of. I don’t know the exact year because I don’t believe these guns have serial numbers but both have to be at least 70 years old, possibly 75. This is part of what I am trying to figure out. I was floored when I spotted it on the bay & both in this condition.
I'll post up on AVA once I have photos for someone here or there to use to try & date both.
Thanks John. You'll love the 392P.
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Obviously they weren't concerned with shipping damage back then. This could be what led to the "stock off" packaging.
Awesome gun and box... congrats.
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I think you hit the nail on the head Bill. I also think it had to do with increasing storage space & cutting costs for shipping. Not in weight obviously but in materials to wrap for shipping.
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Dang Brother.... and I do mean DAAAANNNNGGGG!
You seem to have a knack finding Unicorns.
;D
Congrats on yet another fine vintage Pumper.
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Dang Brother.... and I do mean DAAAANNNNGGGG!
You seem to have a knack finding Unicorns.
;D
Congrats on yet another fine vintage Pumper.
Thanks buddy! Pretty pumped about these last two. ;)
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I saw that on ebay. Very nice gun. Congrats!
Thanx Randy. I noticed there were 40+ watchers & expected the bidding to go nuts. Fortunately the price held steady til the final seconds so the price stayed within reach.
I know of only one other person that owns this combo & he expected the gun to go for 3x what I paid. He's been offered crazy money for his. I feel very fortunate this one was somewhat of a sleeper...& that this other person said he would not bid against me. Lucky for me because he would have blown me out of the water.
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Wow.....Nice Gun ! :) Congratulations Marty ! Best Wishes - Tom
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Thank you Tom! ;)
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I saw that on ebay. Very nice gun. Congrats!
Thanx Randy. I noticed there were 40+ watchers & expected the bidding to go nuts. Fortunately the price held steady til the final seconds so the price stayed well within reach.
I know of only one other person that owns this combo & he expected the gun to go for 3x what I paid. He's been offered crazy money for his. I feel very fortunate this one was somewhat of a sleeper...& that this other person said he would not bid against me. Lucky for me because he would have flat blown me out of the water.
With EBay you never know, with my Webley Pistol 2 weeks ago I put a bid in with 15 seconds to go. It was very reasonable at that time, but I asked myself what was my max price I would pay, then I added $5. Only one other last seconds bid came in and I won by $4. Lol. If that one person didn’t bid it would have been a steal. So often it seems my role on the bay is to make the other guy pay more?
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I saw that on ebay. Very nice gun. Congrats!
Thanx Randy. I noticed there were 40+ watchers & expected the bidding to go nuts. Fortunately the price held steady til the final seconds so the price stayed well within reach.
I know of only one other person that owns this combo & he expected the gun to go for 3x what I paid. He's been offered crazy money for his. I feel very fortunate this one was somewhat of a sleeper...& that this other person said he would not bid against me. Lucky for me because he would have flat blown me out of the water.
With EBay you never know, with my Webley Pistol 2 weeks ago I put a bid in with 15 seconds to go. It was very reasonable at that time, but I asked myself what was my max price I would pay, then I added $5. Only one other last seconds bid came in and I won by $4. Lol. If that one person didn’t bid it would have been a steal. So often it seems my role on the bay is to make the other guy pay more?
I have to admit, the bay has been very good to me. 1/2 of my guns have come from there & not once have I been bit. I do my homework, ask a lot of questions, & most important, ask for a lot of photos because the ones on there are mediocre at best. So far so good...knock on wood. I also have my MO for bidding. Nothing special just common sense.
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WOW!!! Museum quality for sure. +1 on the OK Hate here. ..... wow.
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Thanx POI. Guess you could say I'm on a "Tootsie....roll".
Boy that was lame. :P
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& I thought my Benji collection was getting out of hand... :o
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& I thought my Benji collection was getting out of hand... :o
:o
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^I need to go visit that guy!^
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Yeah, we're all coming over for an afternoon to see your museum, I mean gun room!
This one should qualify for the Vintage Gallery cause there ain't a full sized boxed one there.
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Andrew, I sent Danny Garvin the same photo of the 312 posted here. He wants it. I'll send photos once the gun makes it home. ;)
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& I thought my Benji collection was getting out of hand... :o
Dang!
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Pulled that pic off of the AVA photo site. I believe its the last one on the list ("Benjamin Collection").
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-collection/
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& I thought my Benji collection was getting out of hand... :o
These are the types of pics I print and save. I show them to the Mrs when she thinks I should get rid of some.
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The seller finally got around to initiating the shipping of the gun today. That being said I should have an eta by tomorrow.
To say she has the communication skills of a rock would be too kind. :(
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USPS update; sometime Saturday.
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One of the challenges going forward will be dating this early model 312 especially when it comes to convincing folks it is a prewar 312. A gun identical to this one showed up in the AVA website & seasoned veterans were stumped. Every one there assumed the gun had to be at least a 1946 because of certain docs that were with the gun, all except for one, the receipt. The date on the receipt is; 5/8/42. This pretty much dispelled any notion that this gun wasn’t a prewar 312.
I did some additional research on Trev’s Airgun Scrapbook & found an old ad under Benjamin Air Rifle and Air Pistol (http://cinedux.com/benjamin-air-pistols-and-rifles.php (http://cinedux.com/benjamin-air-pistols-and-rifles.php)), scroll down the page & you’ll see a man cycling the rifle with a caption above that reads; MODERN MECHANIX December 1939, New Benjamin Air Rifles have a lever hand pump.
The other piece of the puzzle is the box these early 312’s came in. Veterans at AVA had never seen the box & I assume most folks here have never seen it either. Prior to this everyone assumed all early model 312’s came with the two piece box where the gun had to be disassembled for packaging. I have tried researching this box & nothing came up. I'm hoping someone here has seen it & can add to the discussion.
I included three pix. The first two is the box & gun from the other owner & his receipt for the gun. The third one is mine for comparison. We have been in contact with each other ever since I spotted the gun on the bay. We’ll be comparing notes once mine come in which is scheduled to arrive today. Tracking looks good for that to happen.
And finally, there is no question in my mind there are seasoned vets here just like there are at that other site so please chime in. I would like to know your thoughts on a prewar 312.
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If you go to the Benjamin Product Date website, scroll about 3/4 down the page, it shows production dates were 1940-1974. So a prewar 312 is definitely possible.
https://www.crosman.com/discover/crosman/benjamin-product-dates (https://www.crosman.com/discover/crosman/benjamin-product-dates)
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Rare indeed Marty!
A real catch for any collector!
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If you go to the Benjamin Product Date website, scroll about 3/4 down the page, it shows production dates were 1940-1974. So a prewar 312 is definitely possible.
https://www.crosman.com/discover/crosman/benjamin-product-dates (https://www.crosman.com/discover/crosman/benjamin-product-dates)
I can't believe I missed that Dave. Big time thanx for pointing that out!
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Rare indeed Marty!
A real catch for any collector!
There's that dreaded "C" word again. ;)
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(https://i.gifer.com/2Gr0.gif)
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Na, Ricky is still your best one.
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It's here...I'm not as good as Scott. You'll have to click it. ;)
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HA HA... AWESOME!
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"Look hunny, he's smiling"
"Na, it's just gas"
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There is no question this 312 has seen very little use. The forearm grip is like my last one. The groves of the tootsie grip are still crisp which is an indication of little use. What you will notice is the bluing has thinned considerably. This is something that the owner of the other Benji noticed on his as well. His furniture is like this one, it show's very little ware which indicates the bluing is very delicate & quite possibly in Benjamin's infant stages of development.
It took some time to load the pix but here he is;
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...& I thought this was kinda cool...but he must be taking aim at something off screen or leading by a mile.
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Marty Scores....Big Time ! ;D Congratulations ! Best Wishes - Tom
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...& I thought this was kinda cool...
Love the gun, and love that picture!
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Thanks guys!
As for the gun not shooting…it didn't take long to locate the culprit. Pulled the stock off & the trigger was hanging on by a thread. The gun is so old that the trigger mount had literally fractured. The only way I can describe it is like what happens to safety glass when it cracks. I manually made sear to hammer contact & the gun fired.
I included pix of not only the trigger mount but a oem mount. I can’t believe my contact had one. As you can see by the parts list, this part was actually replaced by another. The last pic shows the replacement on the left, the oem part on the right. I think I’ll go buy a lottery ticket.
Another piece of the puzzle is the one piece bolt on this one. The 3rd bolt diagram at the top of the first pic shows a two piece straight bolt that was offered before 1951.
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Simply amazing!!!
What I find interesting is the paper work from as early as1942 already shows a revised 307A.
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I agree. If you look closely at the parts diagram you can see the 307 off to the right. Look at how much mass was added to the 307A.
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What I find interesting is the paper work from as early as1942 already shows a revised 307A.
If you look at the lower left of the previous Parts List you will see the date; 4/68. That parts list came with the '74 312. Below is the Parts List & Diagram that came with this gun. The diagram shows the 307 & not the 307A. Unfortunately there isn't a date anywhere on this doc. What I did find is a 1 cent stamp amount marked on the Post Card. An online search showed this amount was charged from July 1919 to December 1951.
What is also cool is the 273 peep was available for this same gun. This was important because the rear sight, even though classified as adjustable, is only capable of windage adjustment. Believe it or not, the docs say to file the front sight if the gun shoots low. Fortunately no one did that to this gun.
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This one should qualify for the Vintage Gallery cause there ain't a full sized boxed one there.
Both 312’s made the Vintage Airguns Gallery;
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3234
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3235
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This one should qualify for the Vintage Gallery cause there ain't a full sized boxed one there.
Both 312’s made the Vintage Airguns Gallery;
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3234
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3235
Wow !
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Had one in the early fifty's. I was just thinking about it yesterday. Wish I still had it. It reminded me of the Winchester .22 pumps.
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Congratulations Marty!!!
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/b2b07bac93c36fe29684d55f3a07374f/tumblr_mfxfs7ZLLJ1qiz3j8o1_500.gif)
Only the "Best of the Best" make it there.
I submitted my Minty Fresh Model F 'Dan but got reply. In all honesty they weren't high quality pics and the ones already listed were nicer wood.
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This one should qualify for the Vintage Gallery cause there ain't a full sized boxed one there.
Both 312’s made the Vintage Airguns Gallery;
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3234
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3235
Hi Marty,
Well now you've been inducted into the 'Air Gun Hall of Fame' where those two beauties will be in the online museum forever.
This is what collecting is all about, the hunt of the find, the purchase, the wait for it to arrive, the excitement when unboxing, then researching and discovering what a rarity one has come across.
Love it.
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Tom---------Thanks for the kind words buddy!
Dennis------ ;)
Scott--------Gotta say that gives Ricky some competition. ;)
Andrew------It sure is what collecting is all about my friend...the hunt & everything else that goes with it.
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This one should qualify for the Vintage Gallery cause there ain't a full sized boxed one there.
Both 312’s made the Vintage Airguns Gallery;
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3234
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/benjamin/benjamin-rifles/#post-3235
Awesome! That’s when you know you got a few treasures.
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Thank you Steve!
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Here is a discussion over at AVA. I think you will find it interesting how DTFletcher dates these early model vintage guns. I think it’s safe to assume by the information he has provided that this gun is in fact a Pre-War 312 (’39-42). I would be interested in your thoughts?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/americanvintageairguns/early-40-s-benjamin-312-t8298.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/americanvintageairguns/early-40-s-benjamin-312-t8298.html)
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What is a kick is to have DT take the time to analyze a gun that you own. No doubt the foremost expert in this area. Had it happen with a couple guns I posted. It shows the amazing internet world we have now where you can basically talk to a expert with little effort. And DT gives so freely.
Have you shot these rifles? Curious, you may have already talked about it?
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DTFletcher certainly is a wealth of information. My buddy said his main focus is with the literature pertaining to these early models. I can see why. Amazing how he's able to break it all down.
I haven't had a chance to shoot either one. Been too busy with work plus waiting on the trigger mount for this one. I also plan to give him a good rinse. Keeping my fingers crossed it will spring new life into him. Really looking forward to trying them both out.
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DTFletcher certainly is a wealth of information. My buddy said his main focus is with the literature pertaining to these early models. I can see why. Amazing how he's able to break it all down.
I haven't had a chance to shoot either one. Been too busy with work plus waiting on the trigger mount for this one. I also plan to give him a good rinse. Keeping my fingers crossed it will spring new life into him. Really looking forward to trying them both out.
He ran out of Airguns to collect and write about so he started on the literature of the companies. I have his book on Crosman literature, virtually everything the company published from 1927 and a lot more very cool.
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Does he have a website devote to this?
Or random posts on a forum I will have not joined.
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Scott, I am not sure if there is a site DTFletcher frequents more than others although he does devote a lot of time to AVA. There is also quite a bit of information online that will give you some insight as to who he is. In addition to that there are a few posts that he made on Facebook. His latest post was back in 2017.
What I can say is the extent to which this man has researched old guns is mind boggling. A quick search & I think you will agree.
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Does he have a website devote to this?
Or random posts on a forum I will have not joined.
As said he seems to have posted a lot lately on AVA site. I think it was a very active site as he was collecting become less active but is currently being revived by the English fellow that runs Airgun Vintage Gallery.
The other site he has made many comments on is the English site AirgunBBS.com in their “collectable” area. The English have Airguns ingrained in their culture and this is probably the best site period for vintage airguns. The majority of the discussions will be English - European spring guns. The knowledge and collections you see over there often amaze me. DT will usually comment if the postings are about American guns and he can add some insight.
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Thanks for pointing out that site Steve. A guy can get lost in there...right down my alley. ;)
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gracious!
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Progress is finally being made with regards to dating this 312. According to Fletcher both of the documents & tin (that came with the gun) below are consistent with a prewar gun; the “Instruction Sheet” & “Suggestions” pamphlet.
The Instruction Sheet shows the “Benjamin Steel Dart (out of stock) which according to Fletcher is circa 1940-1941. He also mentioned it more likely 1941 due to another instruction sheet that was discontinued around 1940.
The “Suggestions” pamphlet has a date code of 431 (Jan 1943). According to Fletcher, this pamphlet would have been sent to the gun owner after the gun had been purchased due to issues the owner was having with his gun.
The tin is consistent with prewar issue.
So for now, this guns date of manufacture is 1941-1942. There is one last doc I need to take a closer look at from the 1942 gun owner that could pin point the exact date.
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Tin explained;
No zip code on the tin means these were made before 1943. The second photo shows a tin with a one digit postal code. One & two digit codes began in 1943.
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The alcohol flush gave it a little life, just enough to expel the pellet left in him. It's pretty obvious by the sound of air escaping during cycling the washer isn't making a seal on the tube. What will be interesting is finding out if the washer is leather. All the rubber at that time was used up by the war so leather was used until hydrocarbon/synthetic rubber was made. Not really sure what time period this change occurred.
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The alcohol flush gave it a little life, just enough to expel the pellet left in him. It's pretty obvious by the sound of air escaping during cycling the washer isn't making a seal on the tube. What will be interesting is finding out if the washer is leather. All the rubber at that time was used up by the war so leather was used until hydrocarbon/synthetic rubber was made. Not really sure what time period this change occurred.
If leather was used you may be better off. I have many guns from as really as the 1920-30. Putting SAE 30 Non Detergent always worked. Have never had to replace a old leather seal. Just put 6-10 drops in let it sit over night. Then do it again can’t over oil just comes out. In fact not sure your alcohol flush is the best for leather? Pure mineral oil will just be absorbed and cause them to swell. Keep them oiled after that. I am always going for the older guns with leather seals.
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The alcohol flush gave it a little life, just enough to expel the pellet left in him. It's pretty obvious by the sound of air escaping during cycling the washer isn't making a seal on the tube. What will be interesting is finding out if the washer is leather. All the rubber at that time was used up by the war so leather was used until hydrocarbon/synthetic rubber was made. Not really sure what time period this change occurred.
If leather was used you may be better off. I have many guns from as really as the 1920-30. Putting SAE 30 Non Detergent always worked. Have never had to replace a old leather seal. Just put 6-10 drops in let it sit over night. Then do it again can’t over oil just comes out. In fact not sure your alcohol flush is the best for leather? Pure mineral oil will just be absorbed and cause them to swell. Keep them oiled after that. I am always going for the older guns with leather seals.
The “Pump Washer” is in fact leather. It was completely compressed & was undoubtedly in that position for an extended period. What is interesting is there is an inner spring. It too was compressed in a closed position. I will re position each tongue & lube the washer. Hopefully this will work because the leather washer is in surprising good condition.
The last pic is of the trigger assembly. I guess this is what 70+ year old metal looks like. Replaced it & the new old one worked like a champ.
BTW; love those forearm screws.
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Cool the leather is in good shape. Not surprising to me I actually think they switch away from leather was for cost savings. More work to shape the leather but they just don’t seem to deteriorate over time like the synthetics.
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I reconfigured the washer spring, lubed it & the felt washer & reassembled. No doubt the leather washer is making good contact with the tube but not loading air which leads me to believe the check valve is stuck. Dumped more oil into him. Will let it sit the rest of the day or overnight in the upright position to see if the valve loosens up. If not, I'll try dumping more alcohol into the tube w/o the pump. Don't want to open him up unless I absolutely have to.
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Try what I messaged you about the 397p . It's starting to work for me. It can now pump air and getting stronger. But only if your willing to take a chance. Two entirely different airguns.
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I’m not holding my hopes up too much with the flush as I recommended for your gun which is a ’91-’93. The gun in these two videos is much older & my gun is older than that one. This gun has the soldered valve like mine & quite a bit of oxidation has set in. So I am assuming the valve assembly in mine will be the same if not worse. It seems like an easy enough rebuild as long as I follow the excellent guidelines in these videos. My dilemma is; do I really want to alter this guns natural state? I’ll have to think this one through before making a final decision.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1_DGNaaAs0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1_DGNaaAs0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in1fdJC82Go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in1fdJC82Go)
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Never even tried the alcohol flush. I did what I said I was going to do.
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Oh ya...hydraulic air tool oil
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Lol. You must have not read the whole message or I forgot to send another one. Lol
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I'm really enjoying this journey of discovery you're going through with this airgun. Fun for the whole (airgun) family!
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Thanks Randy. I haven't had this much fun with any of my pumpers, & I haven't even shot it yet. Go figure.
...& if you think this is fun. Follow it over on AVA. DTFletcher's method for dating guns w/o serial numbers will blow your mind. ;)
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I'm really enjoying this journey of discovery you're going through with this airgun. Fun for the whole (airgun) family!
I'm with you Randy.
Marty has given us an exciting insight into early Benji's
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Thank you Andrew. I've learned a lot researching this little gun. Especially all those topics in History I slept through. ;)
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Lol. You must have not read the whole message or I forgot to send another one. Lol
I'm not sure if its the hydraulic air tool oil, secrete sauce, the alcohol, or maybe a combination of all three, but his heart started pumping again. He's starting to build up descent pressure. Enough to start clearing the lungs. I never thought 70+ year old crud could look so good.
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He is already at full pressure. I had to reinstall the forearm grip because of too much pressure after 3 pumps. Last tests will be to let him sit charged overnight to see if he holds air & then run him through the chrony.
It's been a good day!
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He is already at full pressure. I had to reinstall the forearm grip because of too much pressure after 3 pumps. Last tests will be to let him sit charged overnight to see if he holds air & then run him through the chrony.
It's been a good day!
I guess it’s a good day! Cool
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Thank you Andrew. I've learned a lot researching this little gun. Especially all those topics in History I slept through. ;)
I slept through History, English, and, uhhmm... what were those other subjects?..........
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Outstanding stuff!
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Charged the gun w/8 pumps & left the lever open at 45 degrees over night. The lever held its position & the gun was fully charged this morning. I’ll chrony him later today.
In the mean time I removed the bolt. Buffed out a film of rust near the bolt handle. Noticed the bolt spring was compressed so I opened it up slightly & set it & the bb aside for the time being. Ran several patches through the barrel & bolt shaft. Reinstalled the bolt, spring, & bb. The bolt is now real tight & smooth.
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I’m not sure where the numbers should be for these older single port valve 312’s. What is certain is he sat idle for God knows how long. My guess is the longer the lube has a chance to work the stronger he’ll perform. In fact he did manage to cough up a couple of 600+ readings but these were so skewed I didn’t include them. I’m just tickled pink he’s come back to life!
Here are the numbers using CPHP 14.3 gr….
Pumps FPS (avg of 5) FPE
5 501.7 7.99
6 528.6 8.87
7 552.7 9.70
8 577.5 10.59
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Interestingly enough here is a 312 from Baker Airguns that was rebuilt clocked at 577 fps. It's newer than this one. I would think back in '41-'42 this might have seemed lightening fast, & to think this one coughed up a couple of 600's? So who knows, this one might be right about where it should be.
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/benjamin-312-air-rifle/ (https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/benjamin-312-air-rifle/)
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thats about where my 312 is that dennis baker rebuilt last year for me.
its a '60 model that "we" (my Dad and I) have had since new.... 8)
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Thank's for letting me know John. I find this type information very useful in trying to learn more about this 312.
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Thank's for letting me know John. I find this type information very useful in trying to learn more about this 312.
i'm glad to help.....
with every pump i do with the 312, its memories with my dad thats in my head.
an awesome time machine it is 8)
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Every time I read someone with ties of guns & their Dads or anything else it hits hard here as well. He’s been gone since 1/17/15 but seems like yesterday. I know where you’re coming from. Those same memories are with me ALWAYS!
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Every time I read someone with ties of guns & their Dads or anything else it hits hard here as well. He’s been gone since 1/17/15 but seems like yesterday. I know where you’re coming from. Those same memories are with me ALWAYS!
yep, same here....since 2/23/83, everyday ;)
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So many loses...
Mother
Father
Stepdad
Brother
2 BIL
Many, many freinds... the hardest ones being from my recovery days.
Not many days go by that a memory don't flash in. Everything seems to be a trigger of some sorts.
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Always hard Bill. Nice to have the memories to soften the blow. ;)
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Better to remember than to forget.
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Does anyone else have numbers for your Benji 312? If you do please let me know & the year model.
For those who don't know the formula; weight (grain) x fps x fps divided by 450240
Thanks
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I can try Marty, but my numbers may not be accurate because I use Chrono-connect ap on my smart phone, I have not picked up a real Chrony yet.
I've had one in my cart several times but something else always gets my attention. ::)
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Cool. Thanks Scott.
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I can try Marty, but my numbers may not be accurate because I use Chrono-connect ap on my smart phone, I have not picked up a real Chrony yet.
I've had one in my cart several times but something else always gets my attention. ::)
So here is the numbers recorded by "Chono Connect" on my "smart" phone
Now bare in mind this is at 30 feet. Not Muzzle velocity
Measured muzzle to device (phone) 8 foot. Muzzle to target at 30'.
I alternated 5 pumps then 8 pumps for each session.
As you can see, the more I shot the faster and more consistent it got.
Crosaman CPHP's weighing at 14.3 and a B.C. of 0.013
5 pumps 8 pumps
439 524
452 508
434 535
477 519
431 523
475 545
475 540
484 543
465 544
487 567
482 546
AVG 463.7 535.8
ES 26 20
SD 21.2 16.8
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Thanks for posting these numbers Scott! I know how tough it can be to line everything up using this format.
A warm up period is definitely necessary for all vintage pumpers, especially for these 312’s. Mine improved over time much like yours, more so than with any of my other pumpers.
I think it is safe to say our numbers are fairly close considering yours were taken from 30’. It also helps knowing you used the same load.
Hopefully I’ll have time in the near future to chrono my other two 312’s.
Thanks again!
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I received a pm from Steve (19Sheridan57) telling me about a 312 his friend found on what-u-ma-call-it.org. I open up the link & I’m starring at what appears to be a twin to my prewar 312. I contacted the seller, we talked, I then asked what form of payment he preferred. His response; face to face cash. *&*^%! A day past & the guy calls me back. Said he has a friend who will let him use his PayPal account. WHEW!
The guy collects vintage Daisy (not guns) memorabilia & old metal cars. He found a local ad from a retired college professor (84) who was selling his model car collection. The guy said the professor had stuff everywhere, including the attic. He climbed up there & found the box & gun. Asked if the man would sell & he said yes. The professor has owned the gun since new.
The guy tried explaining the gun to me & I played along. He said he didn’t know much about pellet guns but knew it was old because he asked his friend (expert) to look at it. According to his friend it is a ‘60’s model because it has the straight bolt handle.??? I said ya, wow, probably, hmm? That went on for what seemed an eternity. At the end he said he doesn’t collect air guns & to make him an offer, I did, he accepted, bout fell off my chair.
The seller’s ad had descent pix but what was bazaar is his last pic was an ad he lifted from eBay with a statement about how that gun sold for $320 & that his gun was better & more complete. Guess whose gun that was?
The gun & box appear to be in excellent condition for the age. The bonus is that it was owned by a professor & those guys hang on to everything. There’s a ‘Green Back’ doc which should date ’41-’42 on top of what appears to be 5 or 6 other docs stacked below it, a bunch of targets, & two period correct tins.
The gun will ship either today or tomorrow. We’ll get this thing sorted out pretty quick this time...I hope.
Steve…this was an incredible gesture on your part! Truly grateful!!!
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Amazing... simply amazing.
Congrats Marty.
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A big congrats, I hope it's every bit as nice as your other.
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Thanks Scott & David!
I took out the 312 just for comparison. Been sitting for awhile with secrete sauce. Pumped it 4 times & man. 8 times & thing is a hammer.
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Way to go Marty! We will, of course, be expecting pics when you get it.............
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Thanks Randy. You know me, never a shortage of pix.
Shipping today so maybe Saturday. More likely Monday.
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Soooo cool Marty. HUGE FIND!!!! 8)
I have not Chronod my 312 yet. I will try to get back to you soon.
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Thanks P.O.I.
How these prewar 312's were dated. Right now the information is scattered throughout so I’ll try to summarize;
There is an ad I came across on Trev’s website indicating the 312 first appeared in 1939 (first pic). Above the photo on Trev's site is a caption that reads; MODERN MECHANIX December 1939. New Benjamin Air Rifles have a lever hand pump.
Over at AVA DT Fletcher who bases the majority of his research on documents states;
1939-1940: green background, “The Benjamin Hit Review – New Easy to Pump Benjamin”; models, 110-112-117-150-310-312-317-710. {This is consistent with the Modern Mechanix ad}
1941-1942: green background, “Be Prepared! Ask about the New Benjamin TARGET PISTOLS” has distinctive Patriot Minute Man graphic; models 130-132-137-310-312-317, 273 (peep sight). Note; this is the first flyer that show the new graphics for the Benjamin pellet tins. This looks to be the same pellet-tin graphic that is seen on the box. So, I would suggest that this would be the most appropriate Benjamin flyer to go with this gun. {Second pic-this flyer is included with the second 312's docs}
The earliest 312 parts/ list I have is the one that came with the first prewar 312. The bolt of this gun is a straight one piece bolt, & the diagram clearly shows the same one piece straight bolt design. The next earliest parts/ list I have is from my ’68 312. It show’s a straight bolt design that was used prior to 1951 (both pix below) which is a two piece bolt. I am hoping this next 312’s docs gives insight as to the time period the one piece bolt was used. If anyone has this same bolt design in your 312 please let me know. {last pic}
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Mine has the straight two piece bolt 365 that you have outlined in red. (photo below)
But what I really find interesting is the 3151 pump cup shown. That is what Mine had originally and it was so seldom seen I was informed it may have been an aftermarket piece and I had to replace it with the more common Hy-Cor style head 3152 / 3153 that the cup has a hole in the middle. (last 2 photos)
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Reply #68 has a photo of the cup & seal. No doubt I'll be disassembling this other one to lube & reconfigure the leather seal. If you need additional pix let me know.
BTW; your 3151 doesn't show up in either diagram. Probably was an aftermarket piece.
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The earliest 312 parts/ list I have is the one that came with the first prewar 312. The bolt of this gun is a straight one piece bolt, & the diagram clearly shows the same one piece straight bolt design.
Marty, I'm a little confused over the bolt. I have an early 312 with a straight bolt handle which is screwed into the bolt body. The ball on the end of the handle is slotted. I guess this is the pre-1951 bolt as shown in the parts diagram. Could you show a pic of the prewar 312 straight one piece bolt?
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Sorry, maybe 3151 isn't the right number. I tried to read you attachment zoomed in. This is what I was referring to.
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The earliest 312 parts/ list I have is the one that came with the first prewar 312. The bolt of this gun is a straight one piece bolt, & the diagram clearly shows the same one piece straight bolt design.
Marty, I'm a little confused over the bolt. I have an early 312 with a straight bolt handle which is screwed into the bolt body. The ball on the end of the handle is slotted. I guess this is the pre-1951 bolt as shown in the parts diagram. Could you show a pic of the prewar 312 straight one piece bolt?
UJ- your gun/bolt handle sounds like mine. Here is a close up of the diagram & my one piece handle. The pre '51 diagram shows a 2 piece handle with a male end that apparently goes completely through the bolt & is held in place by a nut. The threaded end appears longer than mine.
Each shaft is specific for the 310, 312, & 317.
My one piece bolt handle threads into the bolt & terminates at the outside edge. It too is slotted for a flat head driver.
Another characteristic of these older guns is the front sight. It's positioned quite a ways back at the muzzle.
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Sorry Scott. You were right. Here's a better look at it.
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Waiting in anticipation for the next episode of your collection Marty.
I love hearing those stories.
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The earliest 312 parts/ list I have is the one that came with the first prewar 312. The bolt of this gun is a straight one piece bolt, & the diagram clearly shows the same one piece straight bolt design.
Marty, I'm a little confused over the bolt. I have an early 312 with a straight bolt handle which is screwed into the bolt body. The ball on the end of the handle is slotted. I guess this is the pre-1951 bolt as shown in the parts diagram. Could you show a pic of the prewar 312 straight one piece bolt?
UJ- your gun/bolt handle sounds like mine. Here is a close up of the diagram & my one piece handle. The pre '51 diagram shows a 2 piece handle with a male end that apparently goes completely through the bolt & is held in place by a nut. The threaded end appears longer than mine.
Each shaft is specific for the 310, 312, & 317.
My one piece bolt handle threads into the bolt & terminates at the outside edge. It too is slotted for a flat head driver.
Another characteristic of these older guns is the front sight. It's positioned quite a ways back at the muzzle.
Thanks Marty. Yes the bolt on my 312 is just like you pictured. The rear sight is also quite a ways back from the barrel. In reference to the red arrow drawn on the diagram; isn't that a representation of a pellet on the end of the bolt probe or am I not looking at it from the right perspective?
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In reference to the red arrow drawn on the diagram; isn't that a representation of a pellet on the end of the bolt probe or am I not looking at it from the right perspective?
:-[ Ever felt the need to crawl in a hole & hide. I stand corrected. ;)
Can you post photos of your gun?
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Waiting in anticipation for the next episode of your collection Marty.
I love hearing those stories.
Thanks Andrew...as always.
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Can you post photos of your gun?
Marty, this thread has been educational. Thanks for sharing the information. Here's my ole 312:
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... If you need additional pix let me know.
BTW; your 3151 doesn't show up in either diagram. Probably was an aftermarket piece.
Sorry Scott. You were right. Here's a better look at it.
In reference to the red arrow drawn on the diagram; isn't that a representation of a pellet on the end of the bolt probe or am I not looking at it from the right perspective?
:-[ Ever felt the need to crawl in a hole & hide. I stand corrected. ;)
Oh Marty, I feel for you. I think you have now taken the position as the "Go TO Guy" for vintage 312's.
Need to have your Ducks in a row as your statements will be presumed as fact in the future. I thought I knew a good bit about the early days but I then felt it is like herding cats. Too many years of lost documentation over the decades, especially with the Crosman accusation.
God love ya for trying to sort this out!
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Can you post photos of your gun?
Marty, this thread has been educational. Thanks for sharing the information. Here's my ole 312:
Thanks for the photos. Same gun although I am trying to sort out a time line between '42 & '43. As it currently stands the only way is through documentation. This is why I am trying to determine a transition period between the one & two piece bolt handle. Do you have any other suggestions that might help & do you have any docs for the gun?
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... If you need additional pix let me know.
BTW; your 3151 doesn't show up in either diagram. Probably was an aftermarket piece.
Sorry Scott. You were right. Here's a better look at it.
In reference to the red arrow drawn on the diagram; isn't that a representation of a pellet on the end of the bolt probe or am I not looking at it from the right perspective?
:-[ Ever felt the need to crawl in a hole & hide. I stand corrected. ;)
Oh Marty, I feel for you. I think you have now taken the position as the "Go TO Guy" for vintage 312's.
Need to have your Ducks in a row as your statements will be presumed as fact in the future. I thought I knew a good bit about the early days but I then felt it is like herding cats. Too many years of lost documentation over the decades, especially with the Crosman accusation.
God love ya for trying to sort this out!
Thanks Scott. It's a journey for all evolved. ;) BTW; would you mind posting pix of your 2 section bolt handle? Just curious how it compares to the parts graphic.
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Can you post photos of your gun?
Marty, this thread has been educational. Thanks for sharing the information. Here's my ole 312:
Thanks for the photos. Same gun although I am trying to sort out a time line between '42 & '43. As it currently stands the only way is through documentation. This is why I am trying to determine a transition period between the one & two piece bolt handle. Do you have any other suggestions that might help & do you have any docs for the gun?
Unfortunately, I have no documentation for my 312. Gathering information is challenging and rewarding. Perhaps setting up a web site dedicated to the Benjamin 312 (310 and 317 also) with all the information you already have and inviting other collectors to share what they have will help. It would be beneficial to have all the information in one place to study. It does take a lot of work though.
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The transformation of the front pump Model 700 25 Shot Repeater, discontinued in 1939, & the newly designed under lever pump Model 710 25 Shot Repeater which debut in 1939.
Excerpt from Pyramydair; https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/08/benjamin-700-multi-pump-repeater-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/08/benjamin-700-multi-pump-repeater-part-1/)
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Thanks Scott. It's a journey for all evolved. ;) BTW; would you mind posting pix of your 2 section bolt handle? Just curious how it compares to the parts graphic.
This pic is mine... It also has a slot in the knob for a flat blade screwdriver, but is hard to see because it is straight in line with the camera angle.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146362.0;attach=249077;image)
Here are some more...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146362.0;attach=249151;image)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146362.0;attach=249153;image)
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Thanks Scott. Looks the same. Are you sure the original pump cup wasn't a 'leather pump washer' (3119)? This is another part that might narrow the timeline; leather to neoprene
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Can you post photos of your gun?
Marty, this thread has been educational. Thanks for sharing the information. Here's my ole 312:
Thanks for the photos. Same gun although I am trying to sort out a time line between '42 & '43. As it currently stands the only way is through documentation. This is why I am trying to determine a transition period between the one & two piece bolt handle. Do you have any other suggestions that might help & do you have any docs for the gun?
Unfortunately, I have no documentation for my 312. Gathering information is challenging and rewarding. Perhaps setting up a web site dedicated to the Benjamin 312 (310 and 317 also) with all the information you already have and inviting other collectors to share what they have will help. It would be beneficial to have all the information in one place to study. It does take a lot of work though.
Thanks for the vote of confidence UJ but that would be biting off more than I can chew. I think I'll keep putting along here & maybe through all my gibberish important facts by others like yourself will come to light. I am still hopeful something will stand out between post & prewar other than documents. I thought maybe the bolt handle or the pump cup. No good on either of those. Seems the leather cup was used beyond '42.
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Thanks Scott. Looks the same. Are you sure the original pump cup wasn't a 'leather pump washer' (3119)? This is another part that might narrow the timeline; leather to neoprene
Yep, rock hard rubber.
I think I may have kept it so maybe I can get better pics. (pack-rat) ;)
There was another member who replied to my build thread later that he had the same style in his early 312.
I will try and dig that up.
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Interesting Scott. So we know the 'leather pump washer' was discontinued before the two piece handle. Now if we can get yours dated...
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"Pre '51" is all I have been able to determine on mine.
Thanks to your parts diagrams you scanned in a while back.
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I posted the question over at AVA; When did the 'leather pump washer' transition to neoprene? Hopefully we'll get a definitive answer.
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Was it neoprene?
Seems to me that was a time before it... But hey, WWII is when nylon came to be because of the silk shortage.
Lots of chemestry came from the war.
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Not sure Scott just guessing here but because of a shortage of rubber during the war a synthetic rubber (neoprene) might have followed the leather washer.
Neoprene (also polychloroprene or pc-rubber) is a family of synthetic rubbers that are produced by polymerization of chloroprene. Neoprene exhibits good chemical stability and maintains flexibility over a wide temperature range.
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Real purdy shine on the chromy 312 Scott. Very sweet looker.
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Thanks.. When I got it the original brown was almost completely worn off, decided it was easier to polish the brass that try and re-brown it.
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Just for the record, my '62 Benjamin 312 gets 8.4 fpe with six pumps, 9.7 fpe with eight. This is with a JSB 13.43 gr.
(https://i.imgur.com/wGEe1hx.jpg)
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Terry- I mentioned early on that I flushed out this 312 & lubed the leather cup & was building good pressure. It's been sitting idle for the last couple of month's all lubed up. Cycled it a few times & there is a marked increase in pressure. I'll chrony him again in the next day or two using the same load to see where he's at. Your numbers will give me a good baseline. Thanks!
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Gun scheduled to arrive on the 20th.
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Gun scheduled to arrive on the 20th.
I hope it turns out to be as good as it looked in the picture !!!!
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I hope so too Steve. The previous owner sent detailed photos. That thing must have sat in that attic a long time. I'm pretty sure he was right when he stated in his ad his gun is better than that other one. Everything about looks better; gun, box, & docs. I guess we'll know shortly. ;)
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1942 Benji 312.
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Outstanding!
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Thanks Terry. Bare with me. This is going to take a while....
Significant docs dating this Benjamin 1940 - 1942
‘Valuable Information’ dated 1942.
‘Be Prepared!’ 1940-1942; Patriot Minute Man w/green background, first Benjamin HC pellet graphics, also shown on box.
‘Instruction Sheet For Benjamin Air Rifles’, 1940-1942; shows Benjamin Steel Dart, Cal. .22, per dozen (out of stock).
‘Registration Card’. 1940-?. Consistant with early model docs.
‘H C Benjamin’ pellets. Label consistent with early Benjamin ammo.
‘Western Steel Air rifle Shot’. Trev’s Airgun Scrapbook with the caption; “Western Air Rifle Shot Advert, 1940”.
'25 FEET 'BB' TARGET' 106 count. Consistent with Instruction Sheet 'Ammunition And Tools'.
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...
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Upper left hand corner is a 'Order Blank' dated January 12, 1959, for 'Trigger Mounting' part#-307 ($.50), & 'Trigger Pin' part#-304 ($.10). The 1940-42 'Instruction Sheet' lists them at these prices. The later 'Instruction Sheet' shown here prices them at $.75 & $.10. If you recall I had to replace the same mount on the first one.
The 'Benjamin Beacon' & the 'Focus Your Eye on Benjamin' are dated 1959. My guess is these came with the owners order including the Instruction Sheet or are from another gun.
Lead ammo with black lid. Couldn't find an approximate date on these. Not sure why I included the Kodak tin other than I thought it was kinda cool.
Last pic; envelope inside box for bolt handle.
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Wow !!!!
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Amazing Marty!
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What a time capsule you've got there , congratulations and thanks for sharing it with us.
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Thanks fellas! Pretty excited about this one.
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Amazing.
When you get time, please give us more pics.
I'll need a box of tissues to wipe the drool off my keyboard on this one.
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Thanks Andrew. I'll take some side by side of this 312 & the first one. They look identical except for the 'BENJAMIN FRANKLIN' stamp below the cam plate. One is positioned higher than the other. Going to have to figure out what's going on there.
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Spent some time working on the latest prewar 312 today as it wasn't holding air. As I suspected the leather cup was frozen closed & the spring washer was collapsed, as was the case with the first one. Cleaned & lubed it & re-positioned the springs in the washer. Cleaned all parts & lubed all pivot points then fed the cup back into the tube as open as possible. Still no compression...flushed with alcohol & in about 4 hours the piston started to hold. I still can't get over what a great feeling that is when the valve starts working as it should.
I'll chrony him tomorrow & begin taking side by side pix as promised.
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Side by side pix. I'd have to give the latest 312 a slight edge; condition, & docs. Muzzle velocity; almost identical.
The only difference between the two is the positioning of the "BENJAMIN FRANKLIN" stamp on the left side of the tube below the cam plate (photo w/arrows).
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By the numbers; CPHP 14.3gr. 5 shot avg.
First 312; Pumps FPS FPE
6 528.6 8.87
7 552.7 9.70
8 577.5 10.59
2nd 312;
6 543.5 9.4
7 555 9.7
8 561.7 10
Will try & get some bench time with both sometime today.
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Interesting how one is darker than the other. Do you think they used a tinted finish on that one?
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No tint used Randy. The inner part of American Black Walnut can be anything from a rich brown to a deep purplish brown. Other types of walnut heartwood can also be anywhere from a pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with even darker brown streaks in it, with reddish or grey tone. Walnut sapwood, which is the living, outer part of walnut trunk or branches, can be bright white to a creamy, almost yellowish, grey.
Most of my guns are of the darker tone while a few are light in color.
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Very nice Marty!
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Thank you Dave. Pretty exited with these two little Benji's. Wanted to try them out today. Managed to get a couple shots off before the cold & wind started to crank. Hate to say it but it looks like I'll need to mount a couple of scopes. Just couldn't seed the 10M target.
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& I thought my Benji collection was getting out of hand... :o
Looks like it's just getting started to me... ::) ;D
Congrats on scoring the 312!
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^^^Thanks & yep on the just getting started. That latest '42, & the '69, & 317 short pumper shown below make 12. A long way to go...
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Spent a little bench time enjoying these two 312's. These little Swift 2X20 scopes, Leopold rings, & the IA mount seems like a pretty descent match. I was a little rusty but here are the results at 10M...
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Nice shots! It's always kind of a head turner seeing scopes on these old masterpieces.
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If that's a "little rusty"... I'm a shipwreck!
Very nice Marty!
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Thanks guys. The trigger travel on these Benji's is about a mile long. Tough to gauge the sear location for a smooth release but they are very accurate.
As for the scope set up...let it be known that I can't stand the look. I borrowed them from my H9 & H9A which in my opinion is a perfect match, but you can't hit what you can't see. With these old eyes there is no way I can see a bull the size of a pellet. Wish I had my young eyes back. This is one time I would consider one of those long narrow vintage scopes because the guns are not difficult to cycle so the free hand location wouldn't be an issue, plus I think they would be a nice complement to these old classics.
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Thanks guys. The trigger travel on these Benji's is about a mile long. Tough to gauge the sear location for a smooth release but they are very accurate.
As for the scope set up...let it be known that I can't stand the look. I borrowed them from my H9 & H9A which in my opinion is a perfect match, but you can't hit what you can't see. With these old eyes there is no way I can see a bull the size of a pellet. Wish I had my young eyes back. This is one time I would consider one of those long narrow vintage scopes because the guns are not difficult to cycle so the free hand location wouldn't be an issue, plus I think they would be a nice complement to these old classics.
Rest assured I wasn't complaining about the scopes! It was merely an observation. I think it's neat to see some setups that I hadn't considered before for my own bias or just lack of thought. The scopes don't look bad to me at all. They look quite functional!
I do think you're right about the aesthetics of a long/narrow scope, though. That'd be a sight to see. (ha!)
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TerryM has some beautiful Vintage pumpers with those old school 3/4" tube long scopes.
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He's who I was thinking of Scott. Those scopes would certainly work here.
Chris...here are a couple of examples of both function & aesthetics for the nickel scopes & buffed IA mount...
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He's who I was thinking of Scott. Those scopes would certainly work here.
Chris...here are a couple of examples of both function & aesthetics for the nickel scopes & buffed IA mount...
The nickel look is beautiful on those barrels. How did you achieve that?
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I chose the Swift because it's finish closely resembles the nickel finish on the Benji's & Dan's, & for the Swift's quality & exceptional optics. It's reviews place it right up there with Leopold w/o the price. I chose the Leopold rings for both quality & blued finish to complement those of the guns. I chose the IA mount because IMO it's the best on the market for this application & it's made of aluminum which I was able to power buff & polish to remove the bluing & achieve the look I was after.
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/bjshia.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/bjshia.htm)
Now I'll be researching those 3/4" scopes. What I will say is I wasn't happy with the 2X20's magnification. I'm hoping some of those narrow scopes come in higher magnification.