GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => UK Airgun Gate => Topic started by: Nitrocrushr on December 24, 2018, 01:08:23 PM
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Part 1
I have been wanting to do a detailed review on Tony's new dual seal 22mm skirtless conversion. He now offers this in kit form, allowing you to do the final assembly and set-up. Well I wanted to buy a new walnut TX200 .177 rifle for this write-up, which proved to be the most challenging part of this entire project. The first two rifles arrived with severely corroded bores;
Rifle #1
You can even see the corrosion on the outer edge of the breech. This rifle was returned to vendor for warranty replacement.
(https://i.imgur.com/zN4dk9a.jpg)
Rifle #2
(https://i.imgur.com/i44A0KR.png)
I will tell you with 100% certainty that this is not a preservative. I was in contact with both the vendor and Air Arms about this, who confirmed that they are not putting a brown colored preservative in the bores that dries like rust. On the 2nd rifle I actually plugged the breech and filled bore with acetone and left it soak for 10 minutes. Patches and tight fitting felt plugs on my brass jag came out clean, nothing on them...again, it is not a preservative.
Rifle #2 went back for a full refund - no questions asked
Ok, enough on that, Air Arms is aware of the situation and is working to resolve. But for those of you considering a new TX or PS, please be aware of this issue and take a close look at your bore. A flashlight and magnifying glass will give you a good peak inside the breech - it will stand right out as soon as you shine the light on it.
Luckily I was able to locate a brand new TX200 .177 from older stock at Precision Airgun and Supplies. It has a serial # prefix of "12" so it is definitely an old one ;D It is a beech stock and not walnut, but that's ok. I just wanted a mechanically sound, clean rifle for this write-up and after 3 tries that is what I got ;D
Here is the bore on rifle #3 - This is how they should look!!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/Is8zVHO.png)
Now on to the project...
Included in Tony's kit is
22mm sleeve with transfer port plug already glued into place
22mm skirtless piston with dual seals (standard seal plus an o-ring), piston guides and tophat
Spring Guide and three pre-load washers
The dual seal design helps to minimize velocity swings due to temperature changes, etc.
Here is a picture of a previous batch of 22mm kits lined up - you can see that each of the kits contain the items listed above.
(https://i.imgur.com/qsV2JXF.jpg)
You will need to provide;
Factory MK3 Compression Tube
Factory MK3 Piston Rod
Factory MK3 12 fpe spring - This is part number TX355
Here is a link to the correct spring on Pyramyd Air;
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-mainspring-for-tx200-mk-iii-and-pro-sport-12-ft-lbs?a=8682 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-mainspring-for-tx200-mk-iii-and-pro-sport-12-ft-lbs?a=8682)
To prep for this installation you will need to remove the threaded transfer port plug from your comp tube.
I used a propane torch and heated up around the base of the compression tube, then used two adjustable wrenches to remove (see picture further down in this thread)
Factory comp tube with transfer port plug removed - you can also see the o-ring that was fitted around the plug
Make sure you clean the threads really well inside the comp tube. I used a bronze brush. If need be, heat up that old loctite a little and brush it out while still warn.
(https://i.imgur.com/CM1MZwj.jpg)
Clean out the inside of comp tube when finished
Next, remove the piston rod from your factory MK3 piston. I chucked mine up in the drill press and ran it up while heating the base of the piston with a torch. After a little bit, you will more than likely see a tiny puff of smoke coming out from the base of the piston. With a pair of welders gloves (or something to protect your hands from the heat}, unthread the piston from the rod - you can leave it in the drill chuck to do this.
The following was added 1/26/19
(https://i.imgur.com/NWcloXc.jpg)
After the threadlocker has been softened with heat, I used a piece of scotch brite to protect my hand form the heat when removing the piston skirt
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp7XRXb.png)
Next, heat the threads up again to soften remaining loc-tite, then quickly brush the threads out. It is critical that you remove all of the loctite to insure the piston rod seats properly into the skirtless piston in the next srep below
(https://i.imgur.com/CWjyIgu.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KOr8Ilw.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/FJ6gvZ4.jpg)
Next, remove the front seal and o-ring seal from the 22mm skirtless piston and test fit your piston rod. You can see in this picture that the first portion is machined out, with the threads only beginning towards the base of the piston.
(https://i.imgur.com/JMRvM5T.jpg)
Using a digital caliper with a depth gauge, you can check how far it is seated. Measuring from the base of the piston, the end of your piston rod should be between 4-5mm when fully seated. It took me 2 tries (had to clean my threads again), but mine finally settled at 4.29mm...perfect.
(https://i.imgur.com/sU4mCMG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qO23mdm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/V3YkFQ6.jpg)
When you are confident that you are able to achieve the proper seating depth, reassemble using RED high strength loctite
Reinstall seals
Next, install the 22mm sleeve into your MK3 compression tube. Before threading the 22mm sleeve into your comp tube, smear some grease on the outside of the sleeve. I used Tri-Flow Clear Synthetic grease. This will help to keep things from corroding.
(https://i.imgur.com/5uf5GOh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3UAV3Iv.jpg)
Thread the 22mm tube into your compression tube. You do not need loctite on the threads for this step. I used 2 adjustable wrenches to snug things up.
(https://i.imgur.com/JacYzn1.jpg)
Next step is to remove a coil from your TX355 12 fpe spring. It is not recommended to use this spring at full length. I only had to remove 1-coil, but you may find that you have to remove 2 coils, just depends on the rifle.
Removing 1-coil requires a cut right here
(https://i.imgur.com/FjIRpQP.jpg)
Using a dremel and cutting wheel, I removed the coil. I then finished off the spring end to level it out, and ground it smooth. There are probably a lot of methods out there, and there are videos available to show this process, but I heat my spring end up red hot (only where it needs to bend), and then quickly press it over an Air Arms metal spring guide with a washer set in place - I have this set up in a vice before I get started. Press firmly and it should level itself out while still red hot. I then grind the squared off cut to level it off and blend it smoothly into the end. By now the spring has cooled down a bit, so I slowly dip into some motor oil to allow it to finish cooling down - I do not do this while it is still red hot!
1 coil removed and spring end finished off
(https://i.imgur.com/viycCVU.jpg)
Before fitting spring onto guide or top hat, read comments below regarding the spring ends. To insure a good fit it is important that the cut ends are dressed properly.
Fits nicely onto the guide
(https://i.imgur.com/ldCTujf.jpg)
Comp tube, piston and spring are ready to go - Look at the machining on Tony's transfer port plug. Perfect fit 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZeOeP6P.jpg)
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Part 2
One of the benefits of this set-up is greatly reduced mass of the piston. This equates to a big reduction in recoil.
Here is the factory piston with main seal and factory tophat - 250G
(https://i.imgur.com/4EtD30q.jpg)
and here is the 22mm skirtless piston with seals and top-hat - 145.6G
(https://i.imgur.com/i2kfX63.jpg)
Big difference ;D
Next, make sure you thoroughly clean out the inside of the compression tube. I soaked a rag with acetone and ran it in and out a few times, then dried it out really well.
Nothing special, just a piece of PVC
(https://i.imgur.com/urjtG06.jpg)
Because I lubed this set-up with Krytox, I also gave the piston and compression tube a good scrub with Vertrel solvent
Next step, lube. Everyone has their own methods, but here is mine;
I burnished a thin film of Krytox GPL206 into the walls of the compression tube. I then smeared a very small amount around the front seal and o-ring seal...just a tiny amount as you can see in this picture
(https://i.imgur.com/Aum6JbU.jpg)
I also smeared a tiny bit of Krytox above the piston where the tophat slips onto. This will allow the tophat to rotate smoothly.
Insert the piston into the compression tube and run it in and out a bunch of times while spinning it around to help disperse the lube.
The following was added on 1/26/19
Before inserting spring onto the top hat, inspect the spring end, especially the very end of the coil where it was cut. As you can see in this picture of the factory spring end, there are times when the end is broadened, or protruding beyond the ID of the spring. On the tight fitting top hat, this could cause the spring end to push outwards beyond the outside diameter of spring after installing onto top hat.
(https://i.imgur.com/Lk5KV6I.png)
Here is an image showing the affects of an improperly dressed spring end. As you can see, it can press the spring outwards.
(https://i.imgur.com/lGgYNeJ.jpg)
I have a very coarse round file that I use to dress up the end cut on the spring when they are like this. I hold it at a steep angle so that I do not dig into the main end coil. When finished, I then polish things up with wet/dry sand paper.
(https://i.imgur.com/GJdf49r.png)
After pressing spring onto the top hat (should be a VERY snug fit), inspect to insure the spring end is not protruding beyond the OD of spring. If it looks like it is sticking out, or you feel an edge protruding...redress the spring end until you have a good fit, keeping spring-end even with OD of spring. The TX355 OD is smaller that the ID of the 22mm comp tube, so it will have clearance. When compressed, the spring guide keeps everything straight.
(https://i.imgur.com/J7DP11C.png)
At this point, I set the assembled spring and top hat upright on my bench, top hat down. I then carefully compress the spring a little bit onto the top hat to make sure it is not binding in any way. The end coils should move smoothly onto the top hat. If you feel them binding as you lightly compress the spring, you will need to polish up the lead edge of the top hat a bit. I actually had to take the OD of my top hat down a tiny bit as this spring was a bit small for it. Keep in mind that there will be slight variation in spring dimensions from spring to spring. Tony manufactures the top hat based on average ID of the factory TX355 springs. While it will fit the springs, some may be a little tighter fit than others. The key is to make sure the spring fit onto top hat is very snug but not binding as it compresses.
If there is any binding, you will feel this after the rifle is assembled. You will feel and hear spring noise as you cock the rifle. This is caused by the coils binding as they compress over the top hat. Mine did this and was immediately resolved by taking the OD of the top hat down a little bit, and polishing up the tapered end.
Be very careful in doing this as you do not want to reduce the diameter too much. It needs to be a snug, pressed fit.
Here is a picture of my top hat after taking the OD down slightly and polishing the tapered end. Rifle now cocks smoothly with absolutely NO spring noise.
(https://i.imgur.com/sFbQEy5.jpg)
Before pressing spring and top hat onto the skirtless piston, smear a tiny bit of lube onto the surface where top hat slides onto.
(https://i.imgur.com/thg4gWU.png)
Note: Tony claims that the o-ring prefers a wetter lube as opposed to a moly. Using Krytox is something I had abandoned a while back due to repeated failures in cross hatched comp tubes with parachute-type main seals. I would get outstanding consistency, but it was always short lived, documented on 30 plus tunes. So what is different this time? Well, this comp tube has a smooth bore rather than cross hatching, and this dual seal design incorporates an 0-ring along with a plunger-type seal at the front. So, I decided to give it a go ;) Ed Canoles has had great success using Krytox on his smooth bore o-ring conversions, time will tell.
The following was added on 12/27/18 - In the responses that follow later in this thread, you will see some discussion regarding lubes, what lubes detonate, which ones do not, etc. The takeaway in all of this is that you will have to decide for yourself which lube to use. The key is this - whatever lube you choose, use it very sparingly. Excess of any lube can and will cause issues. If and when you switch lubes, make sure to thoroughly clean up all traces of the old lube, especially when switching to or from Krytox. For ease of Krytox removal, I use Vertrel Solvent.
Today I purchased some STP Oil Treatment and will plan on testing this at some point. Here is the STP that I purchased;
https://www.amazon.com/STP-Oil-Treatment-fluid-ounces/dp/B0009PCPP4 (https://www.amazon.com/STP-Oil-Treatment-fluid-ounces/dp/B0009PCPP4)
Tony is currently using this and has been quite successful with it. Again, clean and prep thoroughly and use VERY sparingly 8)
22mm kit all ready to go! In the picture below, you can see that the kit comes with 3 preload washers. I think there are two-2mm washers and one-1mm washer. To start out, don't install any washers. If you need them you can add them later. Important note - If you do add a preload washer, you should slip the spring guide off the coil spring, slide the pre-load washer/s down over the spring guide, and then re-insert into the coil spring. The must go onto the top of spring on the spring guide end.
(https://i.imgur.com/ELvuDCZ.jpg)
In addition to the info above, Tony has some helpful videos, which you can view in the following link;
https://www.youtube.com/user/ocztony (https://www.youtube.com/user/ocztony)
If anyone is interested in learning more about the 22mm skirtless conversion, you can reach out to Tony Leach on his FB group "Airguntech", or in the group "Lost Volume"
https://www.facebook.com/airguntech/ (https://www.facebook.com/airguntech/)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447138175311176/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447138175311176/)
Also on his blog;
https://www.airguntech.com (https://www.airguntech.com)
Tony has been very helpful in answering all of my questions, and I am very pleased with his work 8)
Now on to the rifle. Since I have written a number of project overviews on here, I won't bore you with any in depth details, but here are a few things I did to it before finishing it up with the 22mm kit;
Polished bore
Disassembled trigger - clean, hone and relube
(https://i.imgur.com/GT4vlzv.jpg)
Installed a Jim Maccari Machined forearm bracket
(https://i.imgur.com/GShAPW8.jpg)
Installed a Jim Maccari Machined cocking shoe
(https://i.imgur.com/uSie3VL.jpg)
Installed a Rowan Engineering cocking handle. Also removed the factory cocking arm stopper and plugged hole with a set screw. This rifle had a very tight lock-up, so I chamfered and polished the end up a little bit (I am not recommending that you try this unless you are confident and have the proper tools) - You have to be very patient and go a little at a time. Go too far and you will have a sloppy fit to your lock-up, not good!! This one is now solid and much smoother ;) You can also see that I installed the triple o-ring set-up to act as the stopper.
(https://i.imgur.com/IA8hRm0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/m36mfuH.png)
Installed a Rowan Adjustable Trigger. Here is a comparison to the factory trigger;
(https://i.imgur.com/DibORx7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ryze6LX.jpg)
Ok, fully assembled and time to hit the chronograph. I am posting this next chart to reiterate what I discussed in a post a while back, after a barrel clean, polish, etc, velocities will take some time to settle in. This can take 30, 40 or even 50 shots. During this time your barrel is getting re-seasoned with a thin film of lead. As soon as that lead film is evenly layered onto the rifling, consistency returns. Also keep in mind that this is a 100% fresh seal and brand new spring...things need some time to break-in. That said, take a look at this ;D
The section I have hi-lighted shows the rifle settling in, and barrel getting seasoned. Then after it settles in, you can see what this kit is all about.....the last 18 shots were an Extreme Spread of only 4 fps 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/q1k0L2k.jpg)
A few comments on this kit as compared to the stock set up - night and day difference!! Greatly reduced cocking effort, almost no recoil and super quick, smooth shot. This little 22mm piston is quick, light and VERY efficient.
While on the bench I fine tuned the trigger....just over 1/2 pound and extremely smooth and crisp ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/106ryJD.jpg)
Next day I put some more through it and then ran another quick chrono test. Here's a dozen shots - Still holding incredible consistency with a continued Extreme Spread of only 4 fps 8) Right now the rifle is putting out about 11.7 fpe with the JSB 7.87's.
(https://i.imgur.com/67jTKmS.jpg)
I am extremely pleased with the quality, fit and finish of Tony's kit, and most of all...the awesome performance!! He puts a lot of time into the R&D and it shows. I highly recommend this for anyone looking to go sub 12 fpe. It's hard to describe the difference, but if you ever have a chance to shoot a Tony Leach 22mm skirtless TX, give it a go ;D
In the near future I am planning on showing this 22mm shooting on a recoil sled that I am making, and will be comparing it to the factory FAC set-up, and also a sub 12 fpe set-up using the heavy factory piston. It's not an accelerometer, but it should show the differences in movement. I will also get some outdoor target updates after I get a scope for it. I am currently without a scope ::)
Here are a few pictures of the finished rifle - It's a real gem ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/JLodRrh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VgUwJbc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/f2ovow1.jpg)
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Very nice on all things done ... VERY NICE !
Not read it ? ... whats the price on this 22mm kit ?
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Very nice on all things done ... VERY NICE !
Not read it ? ... whats the price on this 22mm kit ?
Thanks Scott, I sent you a PM on pricing ;) For anyone interested in this kit, I would drop a PM to Tony to verify current costs.
Steve
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Some very interesting mods. See some neat ideas from over the pond. Thanks for sharing,
Jason G
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Great post, thanks Steve! As usual, excellent job!!!
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Very interesting and thorough writeup as usual, many thanks.
R
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Very cool!! I may have to drop Tony a line!! Did you have to send him your parts? Or can you just buy the kit and install as suggested?
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I have been in contact with Tony and right now he has the DYI kit available for 110 pounds + shipping. If you want you can send him your parts and he can do the work as shown above but the cost goes up to $180 pounds + shipping each way. He does have the springs available but not sure of the cost. It could be the 180 pound cost includes the spring, the 110 pound does not. I think I have all that straight bases off our messages back and forth.
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I have been in contact with Tony and right now he has the DYI kit available for 110 pounds + shipping. If you want you can send him your parts and he can do the work as shown above but the cost goes up to $180 pounds + shipping each way. He does have the springs available but not sure of the cost. It could be the 180 pound cost includes the spring, the 110 pound does not. I think I have all that straight bases off our messages back and forth.
Thanks Brazos! Tony’s current cost for the spring is 21 pounds, just check current exchange rates to convert to USD. Occasionally Pyramyd has this spring in stock.
Also, for anyone looking to have a kit set up as shown above, just drop me a pm, I’d be happy to set one up for you. We can work out delivery of parts to me, I’d set things up and send you a completed kit. With action in hand I could set things up in your own action ;)
Steve
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Nice work there Steve. Similar results to mine and good detail on the assembly. Tony was able to supply a slightly longer rod with my kit (un-installed) so it fit flush with the piston top per his instructions.
I know you had one of the original kits without the dual seal. Did you sell that rifle? Anyway, what differences if any are you seeing? I have heard it is less sensitive to temp changes and now that its winter curious what you are seeing when you shoot outside? ;) Mine also likes the lighter 7.9 exact pellets (11.5ft/lbs) and shoots about the same string you are getting. It also shoots the 6.79 JSB GTO's lights out around 12ft/lbs.
Wondering how this kit would perform in a TX200 .22?? I may have to take you up on your offer!!
Merry Christmas!
Dan
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The kit in .22 is superb, set up like the .177 they add a little power, which would suit you guys in the US, i how ever set up at 11.2fpe with FAPs and this usually means around 10mm total preload on the UK spec spring (so 2 to 2.5coils shorter spring), 1 finger cocking that a 6yr old could do. Do not think 15fpe plus though, never going to do it, not designed to do it remember ;) I would say i can shoot 10m at 9mag and watch the hole appear in the target under the ret in .22 standing, thats how little movement on my rifle here.
Im out of rods right now, will be in the new year before i can ask about new stock, just use the oem mk3 rod, i designed the nose to accommodate all the threaded section of the oem rod to max the strength so it not an issue you have that 4mm recess on the nose, its there by design.
DIY kit no spring, 110.00GBP + shipping
Drop in kit using your parts 180.00GBP + shipping
Springs 21.00 (depends on buy in cost however)
Rods 25GBP
Spare seals 12GBP, O rings 0.50GBP for 2 (this is the seal you will need to swap only)
Bearing 8GBP per pair
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Got with Tony last week and my kit is either on its way or will be after the Christmas holiday. I went ahead and bought my spring from Tony, that way it’s all here at the same time.
Tony likes to use STP for lube on the seal, O ring and top hat. I mentioned using ultimox instead but he said the 22mm kit tends to detonate krytox/ultimox and finish line grease. I think I’ll try the STP just for kicks. Looking at the awesome consistency of your chronograph numbers, detonating does not seem to be an issue.
Great write up Steve. Can’t wait to install mine!
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Got with Tony last week and my kit is either on its way or will be after the Christmas holiday. I went ahead and bought my spring from Tony, that way it’s all here at the same time.
Tony likes to use STP for lube on the seal, O ring and top hat. I mentioned using ultimox instead but he said the 22mm kit tends to detonate krytox/ultimox and finish line grease. I think I’ll try the STP just for kicks. Looking at the awesome consistency of your chronograph numbers, detonating does not seem to be an issue.
Great write up Steve. Can’t wait to install mine!
Thanks ;D Yes, Tony uses STP. Honestly, I have had zero detonation with the Krytox so far. Just make sure to use it vary sparingly, and especially make sure youre not getting any on the front of the front seal.
Steve
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Krytox and Ultimox will detonate in 22mm set up, the reason is the pressure generated is super high, keep that in mind and go sparingly with what ever you use. I prefer STP as it gives the lowest friction set up and it lasts a decent amount of time, and you only need a drop ;)
22mm can generate 1600+psi, 21mm 1700+ 20mm 1800+
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Krytox and Ultimox will detonate in 22mm set up, the reason is the pressure generated is super high, keep that in mind and go sparingly with what ever you use. I prefer STP as it gives the lowest friction set up and it lasts a decent amount of time, and you only need a drop ;)
22mm can generate 1600+psi, 21mm 1700+ 20mm 1800+
Very interesting bit on the pressures generated with this set-up. What STP product are you using?
Steve
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I believe it’s this one but will wait for Tony to confirm.
http://www.stp.com/products/oil-additives/oil-treatment (http://www.stp.com/products/oil-additives/oil-treatment)
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Yep the blue bottled one, a smear round the O ring, work the piston back and forth, do NOT withdraw it as that will force lube in front of the piston seal, just build and test. You can feel the the friction just ease away with STP, often they go that smooth you feel they are not sealing.
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Yep the blue bottled one, a smear round the O ring, work the piston back and forth, do NOT withdraw it as that will force lube in front of the piston seal, just build and test. You can feel the the friction just ease away with STP, often they go that smooth you feel they are not sealing.
Great info, thanks Tony! I’ll have to pick some up. While I haven’t detected any detonation yet, this is still a brand new build and things could certainly change ;)
Steve
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STP-The Racers Edge. :-* :-* :-*
-Y
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Hmmm, now you guys have me rethinking my Krytox application. I've been so happy with it on multiple builds. It does a great job and just seems to last really well. However, I'd prefer not to even deal with the possibility of dieseling and the possible inconsistency this can create.
Tony, how long does that STP product typically last before it needs to be reapplied?
Thanks!
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Everything detonates, just be careful with what you use and where, STP is petroleum based so detonates also, just use sparingly.
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Are there any alternate springs available that will yield 10 Ft-lbs+, given the lighter piston, such as .113", .118" wire or greater, outside of the factory spring, which is what .125"?, and still fit nicely inside. Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
The trigger looks great on your rifle, what is its weight adjustment range compared to the factory trigger?
Vs
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Are there any alternate springs available that will yield 10 Ft-lbs+, given the lighter piston, such as .113", .118" wire or greater, outside of the factory spring, which is what .125"?, and still fit nicely inside. Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
The trigger looks great on your rifle, what is its weight adjustment range compared to the factory trigger?
Vs
I’ll let Tony chime in on alternate springs with this kit. However, I think the AA 12fpe spring that Tony has designed this kit to use has a 2.93mm wire (.115”) and a 21mm OD, so it is a soft spring. Some springs offered with lighter gauge wire are also smaller ID/OD so the spring rate would also change.
On my trigger, I wouldn’t say the adjustment range has changed, but it is definitely a lot more fluid and smoother :D
Steve
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Are there any alternate springs available... Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
I was thinking along the same lines...
Personally not looking to go over 12 fpe. Perhaps the factory spring will be perfectly fine.
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Are there any alternate springs available... Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
I was thinking along the same lines...
Personally not looking to go over 12 fpe. Perhaps the factory spring will be perfectly fine.
Remember there are 2 factory springs available for the TX200 MK3, the heavy FAC spring commonly used here in the US, which has a wire diameter of .130” or something like that (this is not the spring to be used in this kit), and then there is the 12fpe spring, which is much softer at .115”, this soft 12fpe spring is the one Tony uses in this kit.
Here is a link for the correct spring for this kit;
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-mainspring-for-tx200-mk-iii-and-pro-sport-12-ft-lbs?a=8682 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-mainspring-for-tx200-mk-iii-and-pro-sport-12-ft-lbs?a=8682)
This kit has a very soft shot cycle with this spring, no comparison to the factory set-up 8)
Steve
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subscribed.
Coincidentally I saw a youtube vid just today by Tony on the TO1 trigger.
I have an old Diana 48 with a TO1 that hopefully someday I will be able to afford a full resto/upgrade. Sounds like Tony would be the man to contact when that time comes.
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Krytox and Ultimox will detonate in 22mm set up, the reason is the pressure generated is super high, keep that in mind and go sparingly with what ever you use. I prefer STP as it gives the lowest friction set up and it lasts a decent amount of time, and you only need a drop ;)
22mm can generate 1600+psi, 21mm 1700+ 20mm 1800+
"Krytox and Ultimox will detonate"
Hummm.......interesting because I've been using Dupont Krytox GPL205 for several year in my HW95 tuned to 13.5fpe and got absolutely no detonation when testing. Matter of fact, I didn't believe the "no dieseling claims" at the beginning so I deliberately lubed my HW95 internals liberally, including some on the face of the piston seal.
If you're getting detonation with a sub 12fpe setup (even with a 22mm "compression tube") using Krytox I'm thinking that you have some "petro lube" (STP?) getting mixed with the Krytox somehow. Matter of fact, Dupont Krytox is used for lubing parts used with oxygen because it won't burn..........
http://store.tmcindustries.com/assets/images/pdf%20files/TDS%20-%20Chemours%20Krytox%20GPL%20Series.pdf (http://store.tmcindustries.com/assets/images/pdf%20files/TDS%20-%20Chemours%20Krytox%20GPL%20Series.pdf)
From the above............
"Krytox™ GPL 100–107 oils are clear, colorless, fluorinated synthetic oils that are non-reactive, nonflammable, safe in chemical and oxygen service, and are long-lasting."
And
"Krytox™ GPL 200–207 greases are white buttery greases with all of the same properties as the Krytox™ GPL 100–107 oils that they are made from, but they are in gease form."
Anywhoo.....I've used Krytox with my .177 HW95 (admittedly a 26mm receiver) and oring sealed piston cap tuned as high as 14.5fpe and so far not even a diesel much less detonation!
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Regarding Krytox I have one of NCED's full o ring conversions on my Hull Cartridge HW77K 25mm at full power with no burning issues but I also open my TP up too. Perhaps the 22mm has a quick peak pressure which results in some combustion but I don't see it in my 77K. I am also running Krytox 205 in my 22mm TX .177 and seems OK but I didn't goop it on either. STP stuff sounds interesting and Tony has a lot of shots down the tube using it.
How often should you lube with STP in these conversions?
Regards,
Dan
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Several years ago, I put a full power vortek kit into my D34 using ultimox. The internals were thoroughly cleaned with brake parts cleaner and lacquer thinner. Tube was deburred, lightly honed and lightly lubed with ultimox only. It was shooting very hot at over 16 FPE in .177. During the initial 25 + shots, I would get a puff of white smoke from the breach upon breaking open the barrel to reload. Did I somehow leave trace amounts of oem lube somewhere? I don’t think so. I run my 3 stone hone while the tube is submerged in a bucket of warm soapy water. That plus several cleanings with solvent should have sufficiently removed all prior lubes, and yet I got a very odd smelling smoke. ???
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Several years ago, I put a full power vortek kit into my D34 using ultimox. The internals were thoroughly cleaned with brake parts cleaner and lacquer thinner. Tube was deburred, lightly honed and lightly lubed with ultimox only. It was shooting very hot at over 16 FPE in .177. During the initial 25 + shots, I would get a puff of white smoke from the breach upon breaking open the barrel to reload. Did I somehow leave trace amounts of oem lube somewhere? I don’t think so. I run my 3 stone hone while the tube is submerged in a bucket of warm soapy water. That plus several cleanings with solvent should have sufficiently removed all prior lubes, and yet I got a very odd smelling smoke. ???
I would not breath the white smoke, I don't like to breath moly smoke either. PTFE can give teflon flu if not careful, lots of reading available on it.
Jason G
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Krytox and Ultimox will detonate in 22mm set up, the reason is the pressure generated is super high, keep that in mind and go sparingly with what ever you use. I prefer STP as it gives the lowest friction set up and it lasts a decent amount of time, and you only need a drop ;)
22mm can generate 1600+psi, 21mm 1700+ 20mm 1800+
"Krytox and Ultimox will detonate"
Hummm.......interesting because I've been using Dupont Krytox GPL205 for several year in my HW95 tuned to 13.5fpe and got absolutely no detonation when testing. Matter of fact, I didn't believe the "no dieseling claims" at the beginning so I deliberately lubed my HW95 internals liberally, including some on the face of the piston seal.
If you're getting detonation with a sub 12fpe setup (even with a 22mm "compression tube") using Krytox I'm thinking that you have some "petro lube" (STP?) getting mixed with the Krytox somehow. Matter of fact, Dupont Krytox is used for lubing parts used with oxygen because it won't burn..........
From the above............
"Krytox™ GPL 100–107 oils are clear, colorless, fluorinated synthetic oils that are non-reactive, nonflammable, safe in chemical and oxygen service, and are long-lasting."
And
"Krytox™ GPL 200–207 greases are white buttery greases with all of the same properties as the Krytox™ GPL 100–107 oils that they are made from, but they are in gease form."
Anywhoo.....I've used Krytox with my .177 HW95 (admittedly a 26mm receiver) and oring sealed piston cap tuned as high as 14.5fpe and so far not even a diesel much less detonation!
I know you have been using them, we chatted back in the day about them if you remember ;)
The fact is you push 1600psi and they detonate, you have to use them very sparingly, graphite powder big bang also, Moly and WS2 powders no bangs.
The pressures with the smaller pistons are huge, unless you have used one you would never know ;)
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How i know Krytox and Ultimox detonate...
I built a fresh 22mm kit for a TX, never been prior lubed, around the same time I was testing a Diana 52 with a 20mm piston at 100mm stroke, i knew the pressures at 20mm are seriously high so soaked the set up in acetone, then alcohol then 20mins at 40C to dry it all out before testing it and the TX set up with the lubes.
The first 3 to 5 shots all had white smoke, especially out the 20mm set up, figuring i had lubed it to much i removed the piston, ragged it off and cleaned the inner face of the comp tube (this in the D52) it was still smoking 10 shots later but then settled as i push 50 JSB heavies thru it.
The TX smoked around 5 shots, then heavies thru it it settled right in within 10 and ran ok for a few months.
I noted the velocities over that test period, very consistent, probably 500 a week thru each rifle over the SKAN and at 10m (all i have here)
I then cleaned the power plants, relubed again but this time STP, first few shots some smoke as expected, run the heavies to settle it and then chrono the gun, instant 10 to 15fps gains on both rifles....i ran them STP lubed to this day ;) and they both have been faultless although the TX does get used as a test mule for customer kits but the piston is never withdrawn.
Now im not saying Krytox is bad, i just bought some Finishline with teflon which is near as "dang" it the same thng for springer lubing for those who would prefer it. I just know i have seen detonation with every lube bar the WS2 and MoS2 powders, they were zero burn, Graphite went with a *(&^ of a crack for 3 shots at least and when i burnished the parts there was zero powder surplus...nothing i figured would act as a fuel.
So all lubes are fine, just use sparingly and remember lube it and leave the piston in, the moment you withdraw it when you push it back in you push lube in front of the seal.
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Are there any alternate springs available that will yield 10 Ft-lbs+, given the lighter piston, such as .113", .118" wire or greater, outside of the factory spring, which is what .125"?, and still fit nicely inside. Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
The trigger looks great on your rifle, what is its weight adjustment range compared to the factory trigger?
Vs
The kit is not designed to deliver +12fpe, its designed for 11.5fpe or so, this is NOT an FAC set up especially in .177. It was designed from the ground up to use the factory TX355 UK spec 16J spring, yes i have run other springs BUT they run seriously low preload settings and again the kit when pushed over 12 especially in .177 something (probably the rear guide) will fail.
Another reason for the TX355 spring comparing to the soft vortex springs is the ID of the spring, its near 15mm, which yields a thicker wall on the guide for more strength.
Gents, this is one of the reasons i was VERY reluctant to ship to the US, Steve gets the sub12 thing, many do not, if you are looking for over 12fpe, stick with something else...im being VERY honest here. The reason for using TX355 is you can buy them from many places, they fit the guide and they work ;)
Tony
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Gents, this is one of the reasons i was VERY reluctant to ship to the US, Steve gets the sub12 thing, many do not, if you are looking for over 12fpe, stick with something else...im being VERY honest here.
Tony
Yep, I'm with you here! I originally wantED springers over 12fpe for FT use. Wanting a nicer shot cycle, I just gradually kept making adjustments (seeing the light) to both my HW50S and HW97 until they settled at around 11fpe for the 97 and 10fpe for the 50. Around 10 - 11fpe really seems to be the best balance between accuracy, shot cycle, and consistency. I'm hoping to get my TX200 shooting right at 11fpe. With a nice heavy scope, this thing should shoot like a dream!!!
Tony - thanks again for pioneering these parts and for your participation here on the GTA. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT!!!
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I'm all about the sub 12 fpe... with regard to springers. PCP's are a different matter! ;)
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Are there any alternate springs available that will yield 10 Ft-lbs+, given the lighter piston, such as .113", .118" wire or greater, outside of the factory spring, which is what .125"?, and still fit nicely inside. Looking at ARHQ or Vortex springs for example.
The trigger looks great on your rifle, what is its weight adjustment range compared to the factory trigger?
Vs
The kit is not designed to deliver +12fpe, its designed for 11.5fpe or so, this is NOT an FAC set up especially in .177. It was designed from the ground up to use the factory TX355 UK spec 16J spring, yes i have run other springs BUT they run seriously low preload settings and again the kit when pushed over 12 especially in .177 something (probably the rear guide) will fail.
Another reason for the TX355 spring comparing to the soft vortex springs is the ID of the spring, its near 15mm, which yields a thicker wall on the guide for more strength.
Gents, this is one of the reasons i was VERY reluctant to ship to the US, Steve gets the sub12 thing, many do not, if you are looking for over 12fpe, stick with something else...im being VERY honest here. The reason for using TX355 is you can buy them from many places, they fit the guide and they work ;)
Tony
I have my HC TX200 shooting 10 fpe, and I like this power level. With what pictures I seen, you get the 2018 year end creativity award, that is some good stuff. I wish we would see more of this R&D type work and bringing things to the next level.
Jason Garvin
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Several years ago, I put a full power vortek kit into my D34 using ultimox. The internals were thoroughly cleaned with brake parts cleaner and lacquer thinner. Tube was deburred, lightly honed and lightly lubed with ultimox only. It was shooting very hot at over 16 FPE in .177. During the initial 25 + shots, I would get a puff of white smoke from the breach upon breaking open the barrel to reload. Did I somehow leave trace amounts of oem lube somewhere? I don’t think so. I run my 3 stone hone while the tube is submerged in a bucket of warm soapy water. That plus several cleanings with solvent should have sufficiently removed all prior lubes, and yet I got a very odd smelling smoke. ???
"Did I somehow leave trace amounts"
I had a similar situation with one HW springer, my old .177 Beeman R9 and it was indeed puzzling. While I never got "white smoke" after the strip and Krytox lube I did get an occasional "strange whiff" after the shot. I broke down the R9 after 500 shots and was surprised to see "grey streaks" through the white Krytox. I again stripped the receiver and internal parts with non-chlorinated carburetor cleaner, thoroughly wiped the receiver dry with cotton tee-shirt cloth rolled on a wooden dowel, then relubed with Krytox GPL205. After another 500 shots I again broke down the R9 and again saw some traces of grey in the white Krytox. After another 500 shots it did an "inspection strip" and there was no grey in the Krytox. This was really puzzling to me so I once again disassembled the R9 and inspected the receiver id finding this............
(https://i.imgur.com/gNuSdiVh.jpg)
If you look at the end of the receiver you'll see that HW induction brazing (I assume induction) was very porous. Due to the porosity of the braze I'm thinking that the heat and pressure had driven the petroleum based molly paste so deep into the porous braze that the carb cleaner and cotton rags couldn't extract it. It seems to me that while Krytox won't combine with "dinosaur based grease", it did "leach out" the old molly paste trapped in the "braze crevasses".
I later bought a new HW95 and stripped the internals the same as I did with the R9 and never had a single issue of "strange whiffs" and there wasn't any "grey streaks through white Krytox" with the HW95. I took a pic of the HW95 receiver internals and this is what it looked like straight from the box after stripping........
(https://i.imgur.com/svbiK3Mh.jpg)
Notice that there isn't a porous braze that the R9 had. LOL.....I even tested out Krytox OIL (not grease) for internal lubing of my HW95 and this was the result.....
(https://i.imgur.com/P1zHUpMh.jpg)
I enjoy trying out different things with my HW springers and a while back I removed my home rolled oring sealed piston cap, replacing it with a factory HW95 piston seal lubed with Krytox GPL205 and this is what the seal looked like after 1200 13fpe shots.......
(https://i.imgur.com/oJW4NcVh.jpg)
Anywhoo......it does seem that Krytox has the ability to "leach out" any "dinosaur based lube" from minute crevases in the metal.
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Very strange to me because I used graphite powder as a R9 piston lube before learning about Krytox a few years ago and I had no dieseling issues! The graphite powder I used was simple dry graphite powder used to puff into locks. I did find however that if there was a residue of "petro lube" in the receiver/comp tube that the graphite powder would combine with the lube forming a "glue". Years ago when living in West Virginia I had my HW77k tuned to shoot CPLs at 15fpe (using an oring sealed piston cap), then I puffed in some graphite powder after incompletely stripping the internal lube. Not long after my velocity was dropping rapidly and when I disassembled the gun I had to pull the piston really hard to get it out of the compression tube because it was pasted by the graphite. After THOROUGHLY stripping the HW77k internals and relubing with graphite powder the gun performed flawlessly. I even won 4th place at a National Field Target match shooting hunter class with the oring sealed/graphite powder lubed HW77k shooting 7.9 grain CPLs at 930fps (15ish fpe). That year (2010) was the first time the hunter class was added to a national match and the class was combined PCP & Piston. Out of 17 hunter class entries 12 were shooting PCPs and I took 4th place......
(https://i.imgur.com/GexJKzMl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/OxxRvj9l.jpg)
By the way, graphite molds are used to cast metals at over 1200 degrees C (1200°C= 2192°F) because they don't burn out. Graphite melts at 3550 C (3550°C= 6422°F) and boils at 3825 C. (3825°C= 6917°F)
Anywhoo, this is indeed and entertaining read! ;D
I'm having different results with my 26mm receivers so perhaps your "small diameter compression tube high pressure" is the difference. It does make me wonder how your piston seals hold up under such high pressures and temperatures since I found that piston seal erosion was an issue with my 26mm HW receivers........
(https://i.imgur.com/obLBYwAl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/J2wwp4Ul.jpg)
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Ed, i totally respect you have had no issues, seriously you are running 800psi lower pressure than a 22mm kit...it detonates, trust me i tested it ;)
Can we move on from it now?
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Ed, i totally respect you have had no issues, seriously you are running 800psi lower pressure than a 22mm kit...it detonates, trust me i tested it ;)
Can we move on from it now?
I'll simply agree to disagree since I don't think that KRYTOX itself is the issue.
Question...........how do your piston seals hold up under heat and pressure exceeding that of my .177 HW95 which did erode piston seal faces.
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This question is for Nightcrusher. I ordered the DYI kit today and the proper spring from PA. In your write up you said not to use the spring at full length and you may have to cut off a coil or two. In your case you needed to cut off one coil. How did you know? Is there an overall spring length I should be looking for? Maybe there are instructions with the kit from Tony and I am getting ahead of myself. You did a great write up as always with great pictures (so glad you got into air guns!). This was the one question I had when I read it. Thought maybe you or Tony could expand on this a little more.
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This question is for Nightcrusher. I ordered the DYI kit today and the proper spring from PA. In your write up you said not to use the spring at full length and you may have to cut off a coil or two. In your case you needed to cut off one coil. How did you know? Is there an overall spring length I should be looking for? Maybe there are instructions with the kit from Tony and I am getting ahead of myself. You did a great write up as always with great pictures (so glad you got into air guns!). This was the one question I had when I read it. Thought maybe you or Tony could expand on this a little more.
I was simply going on Tony's recommendation for a 1 coil removal as a starting point. While the kit is designed to use the AA 12 fpe spring, it is not designed to use it at full length. Using it at full length is too much and can result in a cracked spring guide. Unlike standard high volume factory set-ups, where you can see substantial velocity drops as coils are removed, the 22mm kit...not so much. What you will see/feel is a better feel on the shot. I am still experimenting to understand this feel that Tony has discussed with me. From what Tony has told me, going from 1 coil removed to 2 coils removed may barely effect velocity/fpe, but could soften the feel of the shot even more. I plan on dropping another coil so that I can see this for myself and get a feel for what it does 8)
Glad to hear you have a kit on the way, keep us posted ;)
Steve
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Ok, I wanted to get things back on track with some follow-up on my original post above.
I made a little more progress today on the recoil sled. Here are a few pictures - still in progress. As I mentioned before, it is not an accelerometer and will not be able to measure actual recoil. But if it works as I am hoping, it will be able to show the movement in the recoil, which I will be able to capture in a physical measurement. I may even be able to capture the difference in movement of various set-ups in video clips
The sled is very lightweight and has a fixed stop starting point. It will be set up to keep the rifle level and in a fixed position so that all recoil goes into sled movement rather than the rifle slipping backwards. It will have a lightweight return spring, which will bring it back to the home position after the shot. Sled movement is extremely smooth with no slop or play. The rail on each side of the sled rides on over 30 ball bearings. At this point my plan is to use a small air bladder to activate the trigger so that I will not touch the rifle in any way on the shot.
Still a work in progress ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cf6EI8O.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qXc9Hlz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hTGdPhk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WXTL87h.jpg)
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Now that is interesting, you could also machine a system close to a FWB300 sled? Look forward to seeing it in action, or should I say, goal no action? Only real question comes to mind now seriously, on the ball bearings, do you intend to lube with Krytox, moly, or STP break in oil, we don't want to see it smoking.........lol
Jason G
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Now that is interesting, you could also machine a system close to a FWB300 sled? Look forward to seeing it in action, or should I say, goal no action? Only real question comes to mind now seriously, on the ball bearings, do you intend to lube with Krytox, moly, or STP break in oil, we don't want to see it smoking.........lol
Jason G
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D
Good one!
-Y
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Steve, a great project and beautiful rifle. The kit looks very nice as well, a dream for sure. In my prior post I was contemplating an alternate spring for generating power in the 10-11 Ft lb range, (I stated 10+) not for pushing the kit beyond 12 Ft lb. Nor the pursuit for more power and speed. (I enjoy my rifles all below 11.25). As there are many springs available now, with some being on hand and others ordered custom and complete from a vendor, and not require any cutting from the start. Sorry for any confusion, Just my curious mind at work. I like the idea of the STP oil, a bottle would last a lifetime.
Best regards,
Vs
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Steve, a great project and beautiful rifle. The kit looks very nice as well, a dream for sure. In my prior post I was contemplating an alternate spring for generating power in the 10-11 Ft lb range, (I stated 10+) not for pushing the kit beyond 12 Ft lb. Nor the pursuit for more power and speed. (I enjoy my rifles all below 11.25). As there are many springs available now, with some being on hand and others ordered custom and complete from a vendor, and not require any cutting from the start. Sorry for any confusion, Just my curious mind at work. I like the idea of the STP oil, a bottle would last a lifetime.
Best regards,
Vs
Thanks VS ;) I was following you on the springs. I just don’t have any suggestions for what else to try. As the kit arrives it is really designed around the AA 12fpe spring, and the tophat is a nice snug fit with the ID on that spring. Aside from the coil cut down, its a drop in and go set-up ;D
Have you ever removed a coil or 2 from a spring and redressed the end?
Steve
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Yes I have. I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count. Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point. As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of a 10 Ft lb rifle.
Vs
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As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of a 10 Ft lb rifle.
Vs
Absolutely ;) The sub 12 rifles are no slouch for hunting, shot placement is everything 8)
Steve
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Yes I have. I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count. Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point. As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of a 10 Ft lb rifle.
Vs
The FAC spring is more like the old Mk2 spring, the sub12 TX355 spring is thinner wire, wider wound to be much softer. The reason i went with this spring is its ID mainly, it allows for a 14.9mm OD guide and i have the ID reamed to 10mm. So you get max wall thickness to ensure max strength. I have used the small springs from Vortek for 20mm builds etc as they are sub20mm diameter, however i had to move to steel guides and with the smaller ID even the thinner wire springs have high spring rates. Springs get complicated ;) its not all just in the wire thickness.
Top give you an idea how soft the TX355 spring is when its shortened and dressed up 1.5 coils shorter, i dropped one into a stock TX set up for the UK and the gun delivered in the 7fpe range, it had a hard time moving that 250g piston.
Also another reason for the TX355 spring is for .177 it allows a decent amount of preload by default even when shortened, in .22 it can get a bit slim at 11fpe, i was seeing just over 8mm preload on 1 build delivering 11.3fpe, the spring was 2.5 coils shorter and i bet would deliver under 6fpe in a stock .177 set up. Just shows you how efficient 22mm can be.
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Tony, thanks for sharing. Your kit looks awesome and is right up my alley.
Vs
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Yes I have. I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count. Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point. As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of a 10 Ft lb rifle.
Vs
The FAC spring is more like the old Mk2 spring, the sub12 TX355 spring is thinner wire, wider wound to be much softer. The reason i went with this spring is its ID mainly, it allows for a 14.9mm OD guide and i have the ID reamed to 10mm. So you get max wall thickness to ensure max strength. I have used the small springs from Vortek for 20mm builds etc as they are sub20mm diameter, however i had to move to steel guides and with the smaller ID even the thinner wire springs have high spring rates. Springs get complicated ;) its not all just in the wire thickness.
Top give you an idea how soft the TX355 spring is when its shortened and dressed up 1.5 coils shorter, i dropped one into a stock TX set up for the UK and the gun delivered in the 7fpe range, it had a hard time moving that 250g piston.
Also another reason for the TX355 spring is for .177 it allows a decent amount of preload by default even when shortened, in .22 it can get a bit slim at 11fpe, i was seeing just over 8mm preload on 1 build delivering 11.3fpe, the spring was 2.5 coils shorter and i bet would deliver under 6fpe in a stock .177 set up. Just shows you how efficient 22mm can be.
Interesting.
I thought, all things being equal .22 was 10-20% more efficient. Your talking about a MUCH bigger difference. Is this because the TP is "optimized" for .22?
Thanks in advance,
Yogi
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Yogi
Some 22mm conversions and many 21mm conversions 177 are more efficient than .22, small pistons can and often do rewrite the rules. If all the stars are aligned on the gun, IE the lead in is perfect, the breech seals perfect, the spring is exactly the right length and the pellets are a perfect fit with the skirts sealing the lead in just perfect the efficiency can be huge, 177 often matching .22 or surpassing it, i have set up .177 riles here and the spring length and additional preload is exactly the same as i set for .22, imagine being able to take the power plant from a .177 TX set to 11.3fpe and dropping it into a .22 and it gives exactly the same power within 0.1fpe...i have seen this ;)
A stock TX UK spec is around 44% efficient 177, a 22mm TX at the same power 177 is well over 50%, probably over 55% efficient, i have seen a 77k at 62% and touched near 70% with a 20mm diana 52.... the rules are very different with the smaller pistons
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I apologize if thread hacking...
So which caliber is preferred with this conversion kit- .177 or .22? For me, I'll be using the rifle (not carbine) for both plinking and pesting- mostly HOSP, maybe Rabbits and of course, the dreaded English Starling... I WILL be acquiring a 12 fpe spring...
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I apologize if thread hacking...
So which caliber is preferred with this conversion kit- .177 or .22? For me, I'll be using the rifle (not carbine) for both plinking and pesting- mostly HOSP, maybe Rabbits and of course, the dreaded English Starling... I WILL be acquiring a 12 fpe spring...
caliber does not matter, works awesome in both
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The recoil sled is complete. Initial testing shows that this sled is sensitive enough to show both stages of recoil. I can run this sled fully floating, or with a light return spring. Trigger is set off remotely with an air bladder ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/1jiYdFg.jpg)
Look for test results and video clips this coming weekend.
Steve
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The recoil sled is complete. Initial testing shows that this sled is sensitive enough to show both stages of recoil. I can run this sled fully floating, or with a light return spring. Trigger is set off remotely with an air bladder ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/1jiYdFg.jpg)
Look for test results and video clips this coming weekend.
Steve
You're amazing man
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Do your kitchen drawers slide as easily? :D
What drawer slides are you using?
Happy NY!
-Y
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Do your kitchen drawers slide as easily? :D
What drawer slides are you using?
Happy NY!
-Y
Happy New Year Yogi!!!
Richelieu 22” with ball bearings ;D 100 pound capacity. I flushed the grease out of them and lubed with weaponshield.
I wish I had these in my kitchen drawers....lol
Steve
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The recoil sled is complete. Initial testing shows that this sled is sensitive enough to show both stages of recoil. I can run this sled fully floating, or with a light return spring. Trigger is set off remotely with an air bladder ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/1jiYdFg.jpg)
Look for test results and video clips this coming weekend.
Steve
Very nice Steve, I'm looking forward to the tests!
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I just want to post a quick summary of my experience with this kit and add to the praises...
It started with some headaches in getting the TX200 HC's from AGD/PA. I bought the rifles from AGD, but they were shipped from PA's warehouse. I bought both a walnut and beech .177 TX200 HC, because I didn't know which stock I would want. Like Steve, both bores arrived rusty. (Be aware - the current stock of TX200 rifles at PA will likely have rust in the bore. Check the breech with a magnifying glass upon receipt. Both PA and AA are aware of this and working on getting new stock.) Thankfully, they were not as bad as the bores that Steve received (sorry Steve!). The beech stocked bore only had the faintest coating of rust in it. The walnut stocked bore had a light coating of rust with some deeper pitting. A friend ended up buying the beech stocked rifle from me. Since I received a very nice walnut stock, I wanted to see if I could keep the stock and just exchange the action once PA gets the new shipment of AA rifles in stock. I never received a final response after several days and multiple emails, so I just pushed on. This is not a bash on AGD/PA, as they have always been good to work with. I'm sure they are just swamped with the holidays. I decided to try and clean the bore myself.
It took multiple days of soaking and cleaning sessions (10 - 12 hours total) with nylon and brass brushes, VFG cleaning pellets, Ballistol, J-B Bore Paste, etc., cleaning this barrel. After my final cleaning session yesterday, I really expected the bore to be trashed. However, I put 3 FTT's through the exact same hole at 20 yards. Since the bore is still accurate, and I removed 90% of the rust (I can only see the faintest of traces near the breech), I'm just going to be done with this frustrating situation and keep the gun. Would I still rather have a nice clean bore - ABSOLUTELY! But I'm anxious to get the rifle set up and start shooting it to practice for this upcoming FT season. I'm thinking that as long as I keep the bore regularly cleaned out with Ballistol, the rust should not increase - at least this is what I am hoping!
Now that that's out of the way, let's get to the good news. This 22mm kit is amazing! I ordered the full kit with Tony's piston rod, 2 springs, and spare seals. I should have enough spares for beyond my lifetime. I also ordered a spare comp tube from PA so that I would have the entire original power plant unmodified. The only challenge that I had with installation was removing the TP plug from the compression tube. I didn't have a torch so I used a heat gun. I had to heat that bad boy for 7 - 10 minutes before it finally broke loose. This is really the only snag that I had. I also disassembled the trigger and honed the sear points. I adjusted it down to about 8oz (this is where I have the Regal set, and I love it), but it just felt too light for a spring gun. I bumped it back up to 16oz. It is feels light and crisp, and is definitely safe but with no creep. These TX200's really are easy to work on.
In regards to the shooting experience - WOW!!! I am just amazed at how smooth this 22mm kit is. It shoots just a hair more mellow than my 10fpe HW50S. The most accurate pellets are FTT's shooting at 770fps (11.4fpe) and AA Express shooting at 800fps (11.2fpe). This is with (1) 2mm thick preload washer installed in the kit. It is very smooth and linear in the shot cycle. It's definitely not recoil-less like a PCP, but it's pretty darn close. The gun also still has some hold sensitivity.
HUGE THANKS to Steve and Mark (CalMark) who helped me through the installation and helped me resolve a few issues! Tony was also awesome to deal with during the purchasing process, and answering all of my questions.
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I just want to post a quick summary of my experience with this kit and add to the praises...
It started with some headaches in getting the TX200 HC's from AGD/PA. I bought the rifles from AGD, but they were shipped from PA's warehouse. I bought both a walnut and beech .177 TX200 HC, because I didn't know which stock I would want. Like Steve, both bores arrived rusty. (Be aware - the current stock of TX200 rifles at PA will likely have rust in the bore. Check the breech with a magnifying glass upon receipt. Both PA and AA are aware of this and working on getting new stock.) Thankfully, they were not as bad as the bores that Steve received (sorry Steve!). The beech stocked bore only had the faintest coating of rust in it. The walnut stocked bore had a light coating of rust with some deeper pitting. A friend ended up buying the beech stocked rifle from me. Since I received a very nice walnut stock, I wanted to see if I could keep the stock and just exchange the action once PA gets the new shipment of AA rifles in stock. I never received a final response after several days and multiple emails, so I just pushed on. This is not a bash on AGD/PA, as they have always been good to work with. I'm sure they are just swamped with the holidays. I decided to try and clean the bore myself.
It took multiple days of soaking and cleaning sessions (10 - 12 hours total) with nylon and brass brushes, VFG cleaning pellets, Ballistol, J-B Bore Paste, etc., cleaning this barrel. After my final cleaning session yesterday, I really expected the bore to be trashed. However, I put 3 FTT's through the exact same hole at 20 yards. Since the bore is still accurate, and I removed 90% of the rust (I can only see the faintest of traces near the breech), I'm just going to be done with this frustrating situation and keep the gun. Would I still rather have a nice clean bore - ABSOLUTELY! But I'm anxious to get the rifle set up and start shooting it to practice for this upcoming FT season. I'm thinking that as long as I keep the bore regularly cleaned out with Ballistol, the rust should not increase - at least this is what I am hoping!
Now that that's out of the way, let's get to the good news. This 22mm kit is AMAZING! The quality of the parts is superb. I ordered the full kit with Tony's piston rod, 2 springs (the BEST finished springs that I've ever received!), and spare seals. I should have enough spares for beyond my lifetime. I also ordered a spare comp tube from PA so that I would have the entire original power plant unmodified. The only challenge that I had with installation was removing the TP plug from the compression tube. I didn't have a torch so I used a heat gun. I had to heat that bad boy for 7 - 10 minutes before it finally broke loose. This is really the only snag that I had. I also disassembled the trigger and honed the sear points. I adjusted it down to about 8oz (this is where I have the Regal set, and I love it), but it just felt too light for a spring gun. I bumped it back up to 16oz. It is feels light and crisp, and is definitely safe but with no creep. These TX200's really are easy to work on.
In regards to the shooting experience - WOW!!! I am just amazed at how smooth this 22mm kit is. I am just blown away by it. It shoots just a hair more mellow than my 10fpe HW50S. The most accurate pellets are FTT's shooting at 770fps (11.4fpe) and AA Express shooting at 800fps (11.2fpe). This is with (1) 2mm thick preload washer installed in the kit. It is very smooth and linear in the shot cycle, like nothing I've ever experienced in a spring gun. It's definitely not recoil-less like a PCP, but it's pretty darn close. The gun also still has some hold sensitivity, but it's not too bad. Overall, I can't image a better upgrade to a TX200. Is this kit expensive - yes. Was it worth the cost to me - ABSOLUTELY!!!
HUGE THANKS to Steve and Mark (CalMark) who helped me through the installation and helped me resolve a few issues! Tony was also awesome to deal with during the purchasing process, and answering all of my questions.
Sounds like success. Along with Ballistol, I use Birchwood Casey Barricade to clean barrels and it is good, along with TSI 301. My HC had some of that stuff, I just tight patched it with the above fluids and seems fine.
https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/oils-lubricants/rust-prevention/barricade-prod4955.aspx (https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/oils-lubricants/rust-prevention/barricade-prod4955.aspx)
http://www.championshooters.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=984&virtuemart_category_id=92&Itemid=111 (http://www.championshooters.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=984&virtuemart_category_id=92&Itemid=111)
Jason
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Zack, I see you’re getting 11.2fpe with the JSB Express. How many coils did you remove from your TX355 spring?
Nice looking stock in your HC ;)
Steve
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Zack, I see you’re getting 11.2fpe with the JSB Express. How many coils did you remove from your TX355 spring?
Nice looking stock in your HC ;)
Steve
Steve,
Tony said he removed between 1 and 2 coils from the springs. And yes, I'm pretty happy with how the stock came out. I did 2 more liberal coats of the RLO and it was just enough. There is just a hint of a satin sheen to the stock.
Thanks!
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Sled Testing is complete 8)
I decided to create a new post for the sled testing.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153321.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153321.new#new)
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How is the STP holding up?
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I have a kit on the way also so cant wait till gets here. Its going in my hunter field target TX 200 set up at around 785/790 with 8.44s.
Tony is great to deal with and very helpful with tune and set up info.
Mike
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I have a kit on the way also so cant wait till gets here. Its going in my hunter field target TX 200 set up at around 785/790 with 8.44s.
Tony is great to deal with and very helpful with tune and set up info.
Mike
Mike thats little higher for the kits, really you guys should be setting 750 to 755fps with exacts with no additional preload washers,, this is all adjusting the spring, then nudge the power into the 760s to low 770s with the preload washers shooting exacts and shoot it there.
I made a post on lost volume regarding over springing the kits, is VERY easy to do, be sure to test with superdomes (just for velocity) and make sure that they are making less power than exacts...usually 30fps less or so.
Its best to run these kits right on or close to 11fpe with Exacts, this gives 11.2 to 11.3 with express (7.9s)
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I just cut a bit more spring from mine today. All together I’ve removed one and three quarter coils. I’m using one 1mm washer and I’m dead nuts on 770fps with 8.4 exacts (AA diabolo fields actually).
Funny thing though, I never shoot super domes in 177. I’ve never bought them but I had, in my stash, a very old tin still taped. An old tiny tin that must be 20 years old maybe more?? They seem much softer and only shoot a few FPS slower. I need a tin of the new ones to test the power/pressure theory. Does anyone know if the old S domes are different than the current?
Anyway, I’m shooting in an indoor silhouette match tonight. It’ll be interesting to see how the TX performs. More interesting might be how I perform... :o
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I have a kit on the way also so cant wait till gets here. Its going in my hunter field target TX 200 set up at around 785/790 with 8.44s.
Tony is great to deal with and very helpful with tune and set up info.
Mike
Mike thats little higher for the kits, really you guys should be setting 750 to 755fps with exacts with no additional preload washers,, this is all adjusting the spring, then nudge the power into the 760s to low 770s with the preload washers shooting exacts and shoot it there.
I made a post on lost volume regarding over springing the kits, is VERY easy to do, be sure to test with superdomes (just for velocity) and make sure that they are making less power than exacts...usually 30fps less or so.
Its best to run these kits right on or close to 11fpe with Exacts, this gives 11.2 to 11.3 with express (7.9s)
Hey Tony
I was going to tune to a lower power with spring alone as you stated and sneak up on the power with the spacers so its good to know the best power to stay within for best results.
I will see if I have any superdomes to test with, I do have lots crosman 7.9s or JSB 7.87s if its more a weight for tuning versus specific pellet.
I have just been bit by the 12fpe bug with spring guns to compete in my clubs new UKHFT matches. So still experimenting with several guns to see just how much nicer a smooth docile spring gun can be to shoot.
Mike
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Its best to test with new superdomes, they like high peak pressure so you can essentially over spring the gun to make them make more power, this is bad though.
Rule of thumb, i designed the kits to deliver around 11fpe with exacts and express (177) tune the springs down to 750 to 755 with exacts and no additional preload washers, then nudge it up into the 760's. We all forget 20fps is less than 1/4inch drop at 55 yards with exacts...its not worth pushing the spring hard just so you feel better about the velocity. A ex world FT champ who runs one of my 22mm kits likes 755 to 760fps, i serviced his kit and he told me he was detuning it down as he is so used to 755 to 760fps now he doe snot want to start altering the zero etc.
Set 760 with exacts on a normal mk3 and then shoot with a 22mm set up at the same velocity...you will be shocked ;)
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Its best to test with new superdomes, they like high peak pressure so you can essentially over spring the gun to make them make more power, this is bad though.
Rule of thumb, i designed the kits to deliver around 11fpe with exacts and express (177) tune the springs down to 750 to 755 with exacts and no additional preload washers, then nudge it up into the 760's. We all forget 20fps is less than 1/4inch drop at 55 yards with exacts...its not worth pushing the spring hard just so you feel better about the velocity. A ex world FT champ who runs one of my 22mm kits likes 755 to 760fps, i serviced his kit and he told me he was detuning it down as he is so used to 755 to 760fps now he doe snot want to start altering the zero etc.
Set 760 with exacts on a normal mk3 and then shoot with a 22mm set up at the same velocity...you will be shocked ;)
I played with some pellet weight versus velocities and came to the conclusion that you are correct in not enough trajectory difference between 785/790fps and 760 average fps. I was going to shoot for those same numbers with 8.44s. My TX likes both 8.44s and 7.87s about equally which is real good.
The good thing about UKHFT is we only need to be concerned with 8 to 45 yards not all the way out to 55yards. Pretty much all distances can be shot from zero to 1 mildot under zero for those distances encountered.
Got some superdomes coming to test with.
Mike
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Are any of you guys experiencing extreme hold sensitivity with these 22mm kits? Although the shot cycle of my rifle is very nice (about the same as my tuned 10fpe HW50S), the rifle is really difficult to shoot accurately. Just yesterday, I finally found the way this rifle likes to be shot - off a bipod. No matter what the material (towels, walnut hulls, sand, pillows, etc.) this rifle would NOT shoot consistently off a bag/rest, no matter where along the stock the rifle was rested. The bipod is the only thing that it seems to like, and this is only with the bipod at the balance point. Although this is totally fine with me since I plan to use this rifle for Hunter FT, it just seems odd given the very nice shot cycle.
Just for reference, the rifle is shooting AA 7.87's at 801fps +/-2fps. Off the bipod, the gun will consistently shoot 3/16" - 1/4" 5-shot groups at 25yards. It just seems like there should be a way to shoot this off a rest MORE accurately. I'm open to suggestions???
Thanks!
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Zack
Glad you found what it takes to get good groups from your TX with the 22mm kit. When you say bipod I assume you mean one that is legal for hunter field target versus one that attaches to the gun stock permanently. Both my TX and B40 like shooting from my Bogpod with the gun rested right at the front stock screw locations, seems all guns are different in that respect. Both are/were shooting right under 12fpe, the TX like 7.87s best at 815/820 and the B40 likes 8.44s right at 785/790. I have not shot the TX yet from bipod with the 22mm kit since still waiting on new springs to get here.
I really wish I had left the first spring where it was at one coil cut off and shot it awhile to see how much it settled in. Like I said with one coil cut it was shooting the 8.44s at 780 and 7.87s at 820fps with a ever so slight bump of recoil with a spring length of 217mm. Definitely did not feel over sprung at all. Buit I did cut one more coil off the spring and ended up loosing almost 100 fps from each pellet tested. So with two coils cut for a total length of 207mm it shot the 8.44s at 700 and the 7.87s at 725fps which was way to slow for me and where the gun liked it. By that I mean that the shot cycle was a bit harsher and only got worse when adding back in spacers due to spring being compressed closer to coil bind than with one coil cut. Adding one spacer at a time with the 1mm first only increased the fps by about 5fps and all 5mm of spacers took it to barely 740 with 8.44s and 760 with 7.87s. With all 5mm of shims the shot cycle was back at the same level as the gun was with my home tuned 12 fpe setup due to spring being collapsed even closer to coil bind than at no spacers and 217mm spring length. That simply will not do for my needs.
So I have 2 spring on the way to be able to cut for a 217mm length and hopefully get back to the initial tune I had after the first coil was cut. It may have settled out a bit from the first chrony numbers but certainly not the 100 fps loss I had with two coil cut of at 207mm length.
Just goes to show every gun is different and why Tony was very reluctant to cut the spring for me before being sent out. At least now I know the best length for my gun. That's why they call it tuning.
Otherwise very very happy with the kit and am confident I can get it back to where I had the first time around.
Mike
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Well got my springs in earlier this week and got one coil cut and dressed to a total length of 218mm including a 1mm spacer and installed it in the gun. I got lucky and ended up at the same 217mm length as the first spring with one coil cut off. Its now back to the level it was at with one coil off the first spring so pretty consistent in energy output.
It shooting the AA 7.87s at 815fps for 11.6fpe and is settling in on single digit ES numbers. It is so smooth and quick shooting that I can see the pellet on its way to the target and have little trouble getting a ragged one hole group at 25 yards rested on a sandbag just forward of the trigger guard. I am going to love this gun in the UKHFT matches this year for sure. Its now one of my favorite spring guns now.
Mike
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Well got my springs in earlier this week and got one coil cut and dressed to a total length of 218mm including a 1mm spacer and installed it in the gun. I got lucky and ended up at the same 217mm length as the first spring with one coil cut off. Its now back to the level it was at with one coil off the first spring so pretty consistent in energy output.
It shooting the AA 7.87s at 815fps for 11.6fpe and is settling in on single digit ES numbers. It is so smooth and quick shooting that I can see the pellet on its way to the target and have little trouble getting a ragged one hole group at 25 yards rested on a sandbag just forward of the trigger guard. I am going to love this gun in the UKHFT matches this year for sure. Its now one of my favorite spring guns now.
Mike
I'm glad to hear you got where you wanted! I'm also jealous of your groups. I wish you the best of luck at your upcoming FT matches!
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Yea its going to be a long week for sure. The first weekend of the month is our normal match weekend but our MD had obligations this weekend so its been moved to next weekend. Just as well since its going to be wet all weekend. We shoot both Sat and Sunday weekend formats so you can get two or three matches shot over the weekend. Its been lots of fun and is a different game than the AAFTA hunter class field target game.
Targets are 8 to 45 yards, any scope and mag can be used but once match starts no adjusting the scope at all. 12fpe power level and you shoot prone, kneeling or standing no sitting at all. Forced lanes of kneeling/standing. Can use support of trees or posts on some lanes. Scored as miss of complete target = 0 points, hit of faceplate = 1 point, hit kill zone dropping target = 2 points, 2 shots per target. 15 to 30 lanes
We also have a "Stick" class for those of us that are not capable of getting up and down from prone positions. You can use stool and bipod same as USHFT game for all lanes except forced and can shoot kneeling from stool without bipod.
So far I am enjoying the game.
Mike
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Yea its going to be a long week for sure. The first weekend of the month is our normal match weekend but our MD had obligations this weekend so its been moved to next weekend. Just as well since its going to be wet all weekend. We shoot both Sat and Sunday weekend formats so you can get two or three matches shot over the weekend. Its been lots of fun and is a different game than the AAFTA hunter class field target game.
Targets are 8 to 45 yards, any scope and mag can be used but once match starts no adjusting the scope at all. 12fpe power level and you shoot prone, kneeling or standing no sitting at all. Forced lanes of kneeling/standing. Can use support of trees or posts on some lanes. Scored as miss of complete target = 0 points, hit of faceplate = 1 point, hit kill zone dropping target = 2 points, 2 shots per target. 15 to 30 lanes
We also have a "Stick" class for those of us that are not capable of getting up and down from prone positions. You can use stool and bipod same as USHFT game for all lanes except forced and can shoot kneeling from stool without bipod.
So far I am enjoying the game.
Mike
Wow, that's quite a bit different than the hunter field target that I'm used to. Definitely sounds fun though.
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I shoot off bucket and sticks in both games since getting up and down from the ground is not going to work for me, horizontally challenged for sure. We decided to try a different game for awhile. Everyone prefers just a bit different scope setting but the idea is to get as wide of a yardage span that is in focus as possible and make do with the out of focus at the close and far targets. I use 10x and 33 yard parallax with a hawke varmint 2.5x10x44 scope. That gives me a clear sight picture from 18 to 35 yards and just a bit blurry closer and farther but still useable for accurate work. Some scope are better suited to being used this way due to better field of views. There is a recoiling class and non recoiling class all at 12fpe. You can shoot several different guns in the weekend matches over the course of the year. I have two PCPs and four springers set up for this game now.
We are the first US club to start shooting the UKHFT game and are fully sanctioned by UK organization. We plan on having a big event in November with some UK competitors coming over to join in with us. Should be fun.
Heres a link to the official rules.
https://www.sites.google.com/site/ukahft/2017-rules (https://www.sites.google.com/site/ukahft/2017-rules)
Mike
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Are any of you guys experiencing extreme hold sensitivity with these 22mm kits? Although the shot cycle of my rifle is very nice (about the same as my tuned 10fpe HW50S), the rifle is really difficult to shoot accurately. Just yesterday, I finally found the way this rifle likes to be shot - off a bipod. No matter what the material (towels, walnut hulls, sand, pillows, etc.) this rifle would NOT shoot consistently off a bag/rest, no matter where along the stock the rifle was rested. The bipod is the only thing that it seems to like, and this is only with the bipod at the balance point. Although this is totally fine with me since I plan to use this rifle for Hunter FT, it just seems odd given the very nice shot cycle.
Just for reference, the rifle is shooting AA 7.87's at 801fps +/-2fps. Off the bipod, the gun will consistently shoot 3/16" - 1/4" 5-shot groups at 25yards. It just seems like there should be a way to shoot this off a rest MORE accurately. I'm open to suggestions???
Thanks!
Zack, Sorry it took me so long to test out my TX for hold sensitivity. Lately I get caught up working on rifles more than shooting them ;) I still haven't gotten a good scope for my TX, so I pulled the one off of my HW98. It is nothing fancy (Nikon EFR 3-9). I need more magnification for my eyes anymore, but I wanted to put some down range with it so I had to make due. I don't even have a recoil pad on this rifle due to using the stock for sled testing.
I wanted to test several pellets, and also test for hold sensitivity.
(https://i.imgur.com/M25PPcw.jpg)
We had a slight varying cross breeze, but nothing major so I took the target out to 30 yards.
The following three groups were shot consecutively with no barrel seasoning between the pellet types
H&N FTT 8.64gr
5-shots
30 yards
Less than 3/16" ctc
(https://i.imgur.com/tAXg9YH.jpg)
AA 8.4 grain (4.51)
5-shots
30 yards
3/16" ctc
(https://i.imgur.com/1VRZtnY.jpg)
Hold sensitivity test
AA 8.4 grain (4.51)
3-shots
30 yards
First shot - single sand bag - 2 finger widths off the front of trigger guard (The balance point) - Read of stock floating
Second Shot - Single sand bag in middle of forearm - Rear of stock lightly sitting on my left hand
Third shot - Single sand bag at the very front of the forearm - Rear of stock sitting firmly on my left hand
Each were shot as quickly as I could get set up in the new positions
This group was just barely over 3/16" c-t-c.
(https://i.imgur.com/3VmE2tJ.jpg)
For the first outing I am extremely pleased with the ease of shooting. Being out of practice I would say the rifle made grouping at 30-yards easy for me 8) This scope is set for optical center, so it is not zeroed in. I just picked a spot to aim at for each group, and let the pellets hit wherever. Notice how close the POI was from group to group.
Steve
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Steve are they adjustable mounts on there? And what's your opinion on adjustable mounts on springers?
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Steve are they adjustable mounts on there? And what's your opinion on adjustable mounts on springers?
Yes, They are the FX No Limit rings. I now use nothing but adjustable on my springers. These are an old set, I have since switched to the Sportsmatch 1-piece adjustable. I set scope to optical center and then fine POI at 30-yards with the mount. I get as close as I can and then touch things up with a few clicks on the turrets.
Steve
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Are any of you guys experiencing extreme hold sensitivity with these 22mm kits? Although the shot cycle of my rifle is very nice (about the same as my tuned 10fpe HW50S), the rifle is really difficult to shoot accurately. Just yesterday, I finally found the way this rifle likes to be shot - off a bipod. No matter what the material (towels, walnut hulls, sand, pillows, etc.) this rifle would NOT shoot consistently off a bag/rest, no matter where along the stock the rifle was rested. The bipod is the only thing that it seems to like, and this is only with the bipod at the balance point. Although this is totally fine with me since I plan to use this rifle for Hunter FT, it just seems odd given the very nice shot cycle.
Just for reference, the rifle is shooting AA 7.87's at 801fps +/-2fps. Off the bipod, the gun will consistently shoot 3/16" - 1/4" 5-shot groups at 25yards. It just seems like there should be a way to shoot this off a rest MORE accurately. I'm open to suggestions???
Thanks!
Zack, Sorry it took me so long to test out my TX for hold sensitivity. Lately I get caught up working on rifles more than shooting them ;) I still haven't gotten a good scope for my TX, so I pulled the one off of my HW98. It is nothing fancy (Nikon EFR 3-9). I need more magnification for my eyes anymore, but I wanted to put some down range with it so I had to make due. I don't even have a recoil pad on this rifle due to using the stock for sled testing.
I wanted to test several pellets, and also test for hold sensitivity.
(https://i.imgur.com/M25PPcw.jpg)
We had a slight varying cross breeze, but nothing major so I took the target out to 30 yards.
The following three groups were shot consecutively with no barrel seasoning between the pellet types
H&N FTT 8.64gr
5-shots
30 yards
Less than 3/16" ctc
(https://i.imgur.com/tAXg9YH.jpg)
AA 8.4 grain (4.51)
5-shots
30 yards
3/16" ctc
(https://i.imgur.com/1VRZtnY.jpg)
Hold sensitivity test
AA 8.4 grain (4.51)
3-shots
30 yards
First shot - single sand bag - 2 finger widths off the front of trigger guard (The balance point) - Read of stock floating
Second Shot - Single sand bag in middle of forearm - Rear of stock lightly sitting on my left hand
Third shot - Single sand bag at the very front of the forearm - Rear of stock sitting firmly on my left hand
Each were shot as quickly as I could get set up in the new positions
This group was just barely over 3/16" c-t-c.
(https://i.imgur.com/3VmE2tJ.jpg)
For the first outing I am extremely pleased with the ease of shooting. Being out of practice I would say the rifle made grouping at 30-yards easy for me 8) This scope is set for optical center, so it is not zeroed in. I just picked a spot to aim at for each group, and let the pellets hit wherever. Notice how close the POI was from group to group.
Steve
Thanks for checking this out Steve. You look to have a very sweet shooter there. Also, the lack of hold sensitivity in your rifle is amazing. My rifle is DRASTICALLY different. Groups will shift as much as an inch or so depending on how the rifle is held. It's so crazy how these guns have a personality of their own.
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Thanks Zack, I am way out of practice right now but like I said, the gun made it easy and was not hold sensitive at all ;) On a calm day and with some more practice it should put 5 in the exact same hole at 30 yards.
I just wish we could figure out what the deal is with yours. It should not have radical shifts in POI like that.
Steve
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Thanks Zack, I am way out of practice right now but like I said, the gun made it easy and was not hold sensitive at all ;) On a calm day and with some more practice it should put 5 in the exact same hole at 30 yards.
I just wish we could figure out what the deal is with yours. It should not have radical shifts in POI like that.
Steve
I’m thinking the same thing. Zack, any way for you to try putting your action into another stock? Any of your shooting buddies have a TX you could put your action into their stock? Have you bore paste polished the rifling then finish line waxed ? I really wish you could find the finicky culprit of hold sensitivity and eliminate it. It has to be driving you nuts. Search n destroy time brother. I wish you were local...
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I got a chance to go to our FT sight in range today to shoot the TX out past the 25 yards I have at home in prep for the match tomorrow. I can say mine is pretty much like Steve's TX in that I shot off a bag that is setup like a butterfly with a deep channel lengthwise for the stock to cradle in. Or it can be turned sideways to the channel so the gun sit up on top of the cradle and it made no real difference how it was rested while still hitting the POA. I had the gun in the same positions as Steve on my bag and even on bucket and sticks it was not sensitive if I did my part. I am not as stable on bucket and sticks as I am off a bench so its me not the gun that's the real factor.
Zack
I wish as Steve said that you can find and squash that hold demon out of your gun. Its got to be frustrating to say the least.
We will see how I do in the match tomorrow.
Mike
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Thanks for the support guys. I haven't thought about trying a different stock. I think a friend of mine has a spare beech stock that he said I could borrow. Maybe I'll ask if I can borrow it at the next FT match, and give that a shot. I too am baffled at what is going on. The bore has been brushed with nylon and brass brushes (heavily, to remove some rust) and polished with J-B Bore Paste using VFG pellets on a VFG cleaning rod. I've waxed the bore and tried that, but found this bore to be more accurate after a cleaning with Ballistol, finished up with a couple dry patches. My Regal is more accurate with a waxed bore. They are both LW barrels - go figure???
Also, following is some info on how I tighten the stock screws. My typical procedure is to snug up the rear screw to 10in-lbs, and then the forearm screws to 10in-lbs, and finally the stock lug screw to 10in-lbs. I then tighten up the rear trigger guard screw to 15in-lbs. I've also tried the rear trigger guard screw at 12.5in-lb and 10in-lbs, and both of the rear screws at 12.5in-lbs and 15in-lbs. The forearm screws I have only done to 10in-lbs, as I feel that more than this puts too much pressure on the stock. I'm certainly open to any suggestions on this.
I went to a field target event yesterday and shot a few different TX's, all tuned. They were all VERY smooth. The one thing that I noticed is that my cocking lever was quite a bit more difficult to unlatch than it was on the other rifles. Steve - you mentioned this to me at one point... Do you think this could be causing my issues?
What I am going to try next weekend is change up the power plant a bit. (I also want to confirm that I filed down the top hat enough where the spring is no longer creating metal shavings.) I had Scott make a rear guide for me (which came out absolutely beautiful BTW!). I'm going to give this a try, and add 1 more 2mm preload washer. I'll see if this has any effect. The Tinbum guide that comes with the kit is just barely snug on my spring. Scotts guide should be a little tighter based on the specs that I provided. I'll let you guys know how this goes.
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Well I shot my HFT match yesterday with my TX off a harbor freight stool and primos gen 2 short bipod and shot a 47/60 points which is my best to date springer score. ;D 8)
I can say mine is not hold sensitive in any way since I shot mainly with the bipod rested right at the front stock screw location but there is a few shots uphill that required the gun be rested midway between the front screws and trigger guard to get the angle to address the targets and dropped them with ease. So no difference in POA versus POI for any position of gun in bipod was experienced during the match. Mine is an absolute laser with AA 7.87 in 4.52 head size at 815fps.
As far as stock screws I have never torqued any screws on my spring guns or guns period but then have been a mechanic for 45 plus years so have a very finely calibrated right hand. I use the sequence of tightening the rear trigger guard screw first then the front trigger guard bolt then both front stock screws. But I do not tighten all at lower level and go back over them to higher level. I tighten the rear screw till I feel no more movement with allen being held at about an inch from the bend on the long end and tighten till I feel the guard come to a stop on the trigger housing, then tighten the front trigger bolt with a T handle allen till I feel the same instance of the guard stopping on the action lug in the receiver, then both front screws till they will not turn with same hold on small allen wrench. All screws on started in locations before the tightening is started. So all the screws are as tight as possible by hand with tool so that there is more movement or compression of the wood allowed or felt when tightened. I guess for me its more of a feel thing than it is actual torque value but as I said I have been doing it for all my life for a living. IME the stock will compress at the front stock screws to a point and then come to a solid feeling like stop where you would really have to use excessive force to get it to turn any farther at all. I have read of some bedding/sealing the front screw holes with super glue to allow the wood to soak in the glue ( very thin type super glue works best ) and create a non compressible effect for the wood in the screw area, I have never found the need for that . A walnut stock may react different to these procedure than a beech stock ( mine is beech ) so no experience with that difference.
Don't know if its the correct way but it works for me so no reason to change now.
Good luck
Mike
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Well I shot my HFT match yesterday with my TX off a harbor freight stool and primos gen 2 short bipod and shot a 47/60 points which is my best to date springer score. ;D 8)
I can say mine is not hold sensitive in any way since I shot mainly with the bipod rested right at the front stock screw location but there is a few shots uphill that required the gun be rested midway between the front screws and trigger guard to get the angle to address the targets and dropped them with ease. So no difference in POA versus POI for any position of gun in bipod was experienced during the match. Mine is an absolute laser with AA 7.87 in 4.52 head size at 815fps.
As far as stock screws I have never torqued any screws on my spring guns or guns period but then have been a mechanic for 45 plus years so have a very finely calibrated right hand. I use the sequence of tightening the rear trigger guard screw first then the front trigger guard bolt then both front stock screws. But I do not tighten all at lower level and go back over them to higher level. I tighten the rear screw till I feel no more movement with allen being held at about an inch from the bend on the long end and tighten till I feel the guard come to a stop on the trigger housing, then tighten the front trigger bolt with a T handle allen till I feel the same instance of the guard stopping on the action lug in the receiver, then both front screws till they will not turn with same hold on small allen wrench. All screws on started in locations before the tightening is started. So all the screws are as tight as possible by hand with tool so that there is more movement or compression of the wood allowed or felt when tightened. I guess for me its more of a feel thing than it is actual torque value but as I said I have been doing it for all my life for a living. IME the stock will compress at the front stock screws to a point and then come to a solid feeling like stop where you would really have to use excessive force to get it to turn any farther at all. I have read of some bedding/sealing the front screw holes with super glue to allow the wood to soak in the glue ( very thin type super glue works best ) and create a non compressible effect for the wood in the screw area, I have never found the need for that . A walnut stock may react different to these procedure than a beech stock ( mine is beech ) so no experience with that difference.
Don't know if its the correct way but it works for me so no reason to change now.
Good luck
Mike
Wow, that's a great score congrats!!! If you can place your rifle at different places on the bipod and still have the same POI - that is fantastic! I'm jealous, and would love to figure out what I need to do to get there. Hopefully changing the power plant a bit will make a difference... we'll see...
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Yea Zack
I am super stoked at my score and how easy the TX is to shoot accurately. When I had it tuned with a vortek SHO kit shooting in AAFTA hunter class at over 12fpe it was much more hold sensitive with bipod so never shot a 50% plus score. Even when tuned down to 12fpe to shoot the UK game is was not as easy to shoot good as it is now so just cant give enough praises to Tony and his 22mm kit.
I really hope you figure out what is going with yours. Hope swapping stocks may shed some light on the issue.
Mike
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The one thing that I noticed is that my cocking lever was quite a bit more difficult to unlatch than it was on the other rifles. Steve - you mentioned this to me at one point... Do you think this could be causing my issues?
I just sent you a pm Zack
Steve
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Well I shot my HFT match yesterday with my TX off a harbor freight stool and primos gen 2 short bipod and shot a 47/60 points which is my best to date springer score. ;D 8)
Outstanding shooting Mike ;D
Steve
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I've been following the thread with keen interest as I am considering a TL 22mm conversion for my new MKIII. What exactly is required for a complete conversion? Is the gun shipped to Tony (I'm stateside) or does Tony only need some of the OEM parts (piston etc..) shipped to him? I've gleaned enough from various forums and discussions to consider it a very worth while effort.
I appreciate the knowledge I have gained in this thread, it has me hoping for the best that my new TX has to offer. Thank you.
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I've been following the thread with keen interest as I am considering a TL 22mm conversion for my new MKIII. What exactly is required for a complete conversion? Is the gun shipped to Tony (I'm stateside) or does Tony only need some of the OEM parts (piston etc..) shipped to him? I've gleaned enough from various forums and discussions to consider it a very worth while effort.
I appreciate the knowledge I have gained in this thread, it has me hoping for the best that my new TX has to offer. Thank you.
Hi Artie, No need to ship anything to Tony, I can assemble, install and tune the kit for you. Tony will supply the conversion kit and I will use your existing compression tube and piston rod. The kit will come with piston, seals, piston bearings and spring guide. It will also come with a 22mm sleeve, transfer port plug and breech seal.
You will need a TX355 spring, which I can order for you if you like.
Just drop me a PM if interested ;)
Steve
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Thanks Steve, I will pm you. First order is testing the gun, I haven't had a chance to send a round down range yet.
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Thanks Steve, I will pm you. First order is testing the gun, I haven't had a chance to send a round down range yet.
Steve is doing mine when the parts arrive from England. Where in NC are you? If you’re close, we can ship em together and save postage. Lol, I doubt you’re that close. I’m excited to see what Steve can do with my gun and Tony’s parts.
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Near Fayetteville, @ 70 miles south of you.
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Well I shot my HFT match yesterday with my TX off a harbor freight stool and primos gen 2 short bipod and shot a 47/60 points which is my best to date springer score. ;D 8)
Outstanding shooting Mike ;D
Steve
Thanks Steve
It does feel good to have great day.
Mike
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You guys are going to love the transformation when Steve gets them done.
Mike
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The first TX200 I ordered in 2017 had corrosion in the barrel. I returned it and got a second one which also had corrosion. I though that's how it's suppose to be so I kept it.
Since I purchased the rifle, I have shot many thousands pellets through it and have installed a Vortek kit + seal.
Today I took a picture of the bore and the corrosion is visible (it hasn't gotten worse).
I've shot the below groups at 23Y and 30Y all 5 shot groups.
Question: Do you think that this corrosion is detrimental to the accuracy I'm getting?
(https://i.imgur.com/z1UzGE5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KOBKMWN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g4fHrAj.jpg)
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The first TX200 I ordered in 2017 had corrosion in the barrel. I returned it and got a second one which also had corrosion. I though that's how it's suppose to be so I kept it.
Since I purchased the rifle, I have shot many thousands pellets through it and have installed a Vortek kit + seal.
Today I took a picture of the bore and the corrosion is visible (it hasn't gotten worse).
I've shot the below groups at 23Y and 30Y all 5 shot groups.
Question: Do you think that this corrosion is detrimental to the accuracy I'm getting?
(https://i.imgur.com/z1UzGE5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KOBKMWN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g4fHrAj.jpg)
Although that corrosion is an annoyance, it's fairly minor. I would be surprised if it would be a detriment to accuracy. What pellets have you tried in the rifle?