• Jefferson State Airrifles
  • Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
  • Hajimoto Productions
  • Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
  • Nielsen Specialty Ammo
  • Dynamic Air Rifles
  • FX Airguns
  • DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
  • Airgun Archery Fun
  • Pyramyd Air
  • Saber Tactical
  • New England Airgun
  • Umarex Airguns
  • Contact us
  • Utah Airguns
  • SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
  • Freedom Gun Targets
  • Evanix Airguns at Airgun Pro Shop
Jefferson State Airrifles
Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
Hajimoto Productions
Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
Nielsen Specialty Ammo
Dynamic Air Rifles
FX Airguns
DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
Airgun Archery Fun
Pyramyd Air
Saber Tactical
New England Airgun
Umarex Airguns
Contact us
Utah Airguns
SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
Freedom Gun Targets
Evanix Airguns at Airgun Pro Shop


Author Topic: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !  (Read 527 times))

Offline Cableaddict

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • yes
  • Real Name: Allan
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2021, 02:39:30 PM »
"physics made me do it! "

LOL.  that might just be my new motto.  Gotta' get some tee shirts printed up.    :D


Mathias, I can't thank you enough for all that work & the thoughts you put into this.  It's also good to know that I wasn't far off with my own calculations.

As for my 6 yard kill zone, that's cast in stone, unless I move to another house.  It's the only area I have where I can be completely hidden from the neighbors.

---------------------------

So here's a different question:

Assuming I have to mount an offset red dot of some kind (which one, I have no idea)   in your opinion, will it matter much if I go with the 12x50 instead of the 10x30?    They both have the same (very wide) FOV, so the 12X seems like a better choice to me, except for the height issue.
  • USA, NY, Suffern

Offline Motorhead

  • Field Target Shooter .... Stand em up Shoot em down
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 16648
  • 2019 Hall Of Fame Recipient
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2021, 03:54:15 PM »
Shooting THAT CLOSE ... variable power with 2 or 3X on the low end.  Mil dot reticle most useful and speedy
  • Northern California ... Old Hangtown
** Home of MOTORHEADS AG Tuning Services **
        ** PM me for further contact & tuning info.

       Sacramento Valley Field Target Club
#https://sites.google.com/site/sacvalleyairgunclub/

Offline Bayman

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2975
  • yes
  • Real Name: Ron
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2021, 06:56:12 PM »
Six to twenty one yards??? Open sights at that range is best. Peep sights if you vision doesn't work well with buckhorns.

I have a small yard and pest at similar distances. I've botched more shots with scoped rifles than my peep sighted guns. My scopes are mounted half as high as yours and the hold under hold over is problematic. With 3 inches over the barrel you're going to have real problems calculating hold over/under. With my peeps it's point and shoot from 5 yards to the back fence at 20 yards.

High magnification scopes are just terrible for close work. Straight 4 power or 2-7 is more than enough to 30-35 yards depending on the size of the target. Plus mounting them that high compounds the problem. I know this is not the advice you looking for but you're building the wrong tool for the job.
  • USA,  NY
Hw30- .177- Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw30 Laminate- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke
Airmax 2-7x32 AO. 
Hw30-.177 Vortek PG3 steel, Hawke Vantage IR 2-7x32 AO
Hw50- .177- Vortek PG3, Hawke 4X non A/O
Hw50- .22 - Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw95- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40
Hw97SE (Green 77 Laminate stock)-.177 Vortek PG3, Hawke 4-12x40 Airmax
P1- 0.20 now .177
R1- 0.20 - Vortek Pg4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
R9 SE (Blue Laminate stock) - 0.020- Vortek PG4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2021, 07:32:10 PM »
+1

Yupp, the previous posters already said it: ✔️ 

10x (or 12x) is waaay too much magnification for 6y.
Because the field of view at that magnification is very narrow ➔ so you'll have a hard time finding your quarry, and if the quarry doesn't sit still, so much the worse.


I'll attach a Scope Specs Table for variable magnification scopes that are 3-9x and 3-12x and depending on what your farthest ranges are, you could go even lower to a 2-7x / 2-6x (the 1x scopes tend to get expensive). 😊

Matthias

❌ Attachment:Scope Specs Table 3-12x/ 3-9x/ and short scopes
  • Lima, PERU

Offline Cableaddict

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • yes
  • Real Name: Allan
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2021, 07:58:47 PM »
High magnification scopes are just terrible for close work. Straight 4 power or 2-7 is more than enough to 30-35 yards depending on the size of the target. 

I hear everything else you're saying, but I disagree strongly with this.

Because I'm planning on getting an MTC SWAT, I've been using my Bugbuster always at 9x power, to see if I could get used to it.    Using lots of turret adjustment and shims, I can get it zero'd at 6 yards.   In use,  I find it just fine at 6 yards.  - especially as I've gotten used to shooting with both eyes open. 
For more "mobile" hunting,  the SWAT scopes have a MUCH wider FOV than standard designs,  (33' @ 100 yards)  and so the typical disadvantage of high power is just not there.

And at 30-50 yards, 9X is barely enough for my 63 y-o eyes to guarantee a head or heart shot on some small critter.

Another advantage:  Higher power scopes, if well-calibrated, can serve as a poor man's rangefinder, due to the reach and the short DOF.  These two MTC scopes are reportedly extra good in this regard.

One final advantage:  When I'm hunting, I like to look through the scope as if it were binoculars, and enjoy seeing the other wildlife.  When there's no legal game around, this makes for a peaceful interlude.  For that, the more magnification the better, esp with the extra FOV these scopes provide.
----------------------------

I don't know why these scope aren't more popular with small game hunters. IMO it's the perfect design, except for the height of the MTC mounts.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 08:06:19 PM by Cableaddict »
  • USA, NY, Suffern

Offline Bayman

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2975
  • yes
  • Real Name: Ron
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2021, 09:32:50 PM »
My apologies I wasn't aware of the MTC SWAT design characteristics until I read this post and looked them up. The concept looks good.

With it mounted that high the hold over/under calculations are going to be a real bear at close ranges. Probability better off with a standard 30 yard zero and mostly deal with hold over at near and far.

With my guns zeroed at ten yards in my basement, at 5 yards I have around 3/4" to 1" hold over, and at the back fence (20 yards) it's about that of hold under. It's a pain in the butt when you're trying to head shoot a busy squirrel with a kill zone that's only 1/2" in diameter. It's very easy to miss the mark with a scoped gun and have a wounded animal running off in a neighbors yard.
Using my own advice it'd be better for me to zero the guns further away so I only have hold over to deal with. Unfortunately most of the time they're sighted in for the ten yard basement range. With peeps there's no appreciable difference between 5 and 20 yards. It's point and shoot. Past 20 yards outside my yard in the field or woods it's a scoped gun every time. Even then targets sometimes pop up close and the scope becomes a liability.
  • USA,  NY
Hw30- .177- Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw30 Laminate- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke
Airmax 2-7x32 AO. 
Hw30-.177 Vortek PG3 steel, Hawke Vantage IR 2-7x32 AO
Hw50- .177- Vortek PG3, Hawke 4X non A/O
Hw50- .22 - Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw95- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40
Hw97SE (Green 77 Laminate stock)-.177 Vortek PG3, Hawke 4-12x40 Airmax
P1- 0.20 now .177
R1- 0.20 - Vortek Pg4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
R9 SE (Blue Laminate stock) - 0.020- Vortek PG4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO

Offline Cableaddict

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • yes
  • Real Name: Allan
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2021, 09:43:35 PM »
Past 20 yards outside my yard in the field or woods it's a scoped gun every time. Even then targets sometimes pop up close and the scope becomes a liability.

Yes, exactly.  That's why this is making me nuts.  (Although, again, using an offset red dot will likely be the answer)

With my bugbuster, I can easily adjust the turrets for a 6 yard zero,   but then even at 20 yards it has to be set back.  a LOT.     There's no way to hunt like that and be able to hit both close and far. 

Sadly, I REALLY don't want to own two rifles. - Mostly because of what I wrote about watching the non-game wildlife through the scope.  I'd want that 12x50 SWAT on my yard rifle, so as to watch the song birds up close.  I like to do that while having my morning coffee.  (and waiting for any HOS, Starlings, or blackbirds to show their obnoxious little faces.)

-------------------------

BTW-  is 30 yards really considered the "standard" for small game pcp hunting?    If I can find a decent, cheap red dot reflex, maybe I'll get the big SWAT and set it there.
  • USA, NY, Suffern

Offline Bayman

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2975
  • yes
  • Real Name: Ron
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2021, 09:54:32 PM »
I'm not into pcps, but most airguns (and rimfires) shouldn't be "climbing anymore after 30 yards. This is provided your using average height mounts.

So there is no actual standard zero distance but this is about the distance that you'll probably only have one zero so every in front and behind is hold over.
  • USA,  NY
Hw30- .177- Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw30 Laminate- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke
Airmax 2-7x32 AO. 
Hw30-.177 Vortek PG3 steel, Hawke Vantage IR 2-7x32 AO
Hw50- .177- Vortek PG3, Hawke 4X non A/O
Hw50- .22 - Vortek PG2, Tech sights
Hw95- .177- Vortek PG2, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40
Hw97SE (Green 77 Laminate stock)-.177 Vortek PG3, Hawke 4-12x40 Airmax
P1- 0.20 now .177
R1- 0.20 - Vortek Pg4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO
R9 SE (Blue Laminate stock) - 0.020- Vortek PG4, Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AO

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2021, 10:03:25 PM »
🔶 OK, Allen, you are onto something there! 🔶

The reason I buy scopes with variable magnification is because I need a wide field of view (FoV) for close range shots and moving quarry.
And I also want a high magnification for those longer shots and for target shooting.


So, FIRST I look at the FoV at the bottom end of the magnification (which is the harder one to get). There I'm looking for about a 30-35ft FoV at 100y.
23-29ft is margnial, but OK.
36-41ft is excellent.


SECOND, I look at how much magnification I need for my long shots, maybe 12x, maybe 18x, maybe 24x, just depends on the shooting scenarios.


Then I look at the scope specs and see which scopes qualify.



Now, Allen, your MTC Prismatic throws this whole process under the bus (or in the gutter). 😄 In a good way!

Because these prismatic scopes do NOT have variable magnification. But they still have a very wide FoV. At the same time! 😄


▪MTC Prismatic Atom 10x30
32ft @ 100y

▪MTC Prismatic 12x50
30ft @ 100y


And because these are fixed magnification the reticle will be calibrated always correctly (unlike SFP scopes that have different subtension at every magnification)!
Very cool! 👍🏼


▪Turrets = MILReticle (SCB2) = MIL

▪The turrets are lockable.
▪Yeah, 4.2mil per revolution makes no sense.
▪Max. elevation adjustment is 17mil = 60moa
▪Side parallax down to 7y.
▪Illuminated reticle (brightness and on-off separately)  ▪Comes with elevation adjustable mounts.

Size: 10x30 
4.8" = 12.3cm short
10.6oz = 300g

Size: 12x50
6.1" = 15.6cm short 
16.2oz = 460g


Thanks, Allen, this is something I totally missed. 👍🏼

Matthias
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 10:08:46 PM by JungleShooter »
  • Lima, PERU

Offline Cableaddict

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • yes
  • Real Name: Allan
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2021, 10:13:23 PM »
^  I knew you'd come around!  lol....


BTW, the 12x50 has a FOV of 32.8',  not 30'.     

The only downside to these would be if someone just hates the short (zero) eye relief.   Personally, I consider that to be yet another great feature, as it speeds target aquisition.

Oh, and since you mount these farther back on the rifle, it also means even less weight being supported by your forward arm.

win-win-win.   ;)

---------------------------------



But I still don't know which one to get.  I want that 12x50 BADLY,  but besides the extra 1/4" height, it also has a shorter FOV, and so will require more field adjustments as critters dart out from wherever they might be.   (I have this dream of taking out a Ruffed Grouse in flight, with a .25 slug.  I know it will never actually happen, but one must have goals!  lol....   )
  • USA, NY, Suffern

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2021, 03:42:27 AM »
Allan,

let me complicate life and scope shopping for you (and maybe a lot of other shooters), OK?  🤣 


🔶 Again, the marvel of these prismatic scopes is this: 
A 10x scope, but with the FoV of a 3x scope.

And this is how it looks in practice:
● I follow the aim-small-miss-small adage by using 10x magnification but at the same time with a FoV of "a typical 3x"
I keep the rapidly moving quarry in the scope,
I see the effects of wind on grass and wind flags,
I watch for other quarry, 
etc.



🔶 Now, I have found a whole slew of these cool aiming machines heading our way....
The brand name is Immersive Optics, and they seem to be the same manufacturer that makes the MTC SWAT Prismatic scopes.
The initial info I got from here:
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/immersive-optics/


Steve from Airgunology explains on that thread:"Immersive Optics is a new brand of scopes from the same designer as other "popular" scopes you may know of.
These are models that were not taken up by the major boys [like MTC?] and so are being released by the designer under the Immersive Optics brand.
I am a reseller of them in the UK, but unfortunately, due to costs and warranty costs, I will not ship outside Europe.
I believe that there will be a USA reseller coming online very soon."


Here are the specs of the Immersive Optics prismatic scopes (note that they have capped turrets and an even 5 mil per revolution, not the funky uneven number of MTC):





Some seller in the UK might be shipping to the US already, just haven't searched enough yet.


BTW:   MTC wrote back and told me the SWAT 12x50 has a 30ft FoV @ 100y. 


I'm excited about these new options! 😄

Matthias
  • Lima, PERU

Offline Cableaddict

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • yes
  • Real Name: Allan
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2021, 03:46:48 AM »
Wow,  interesting!

Of course, there's no guarantee these will be of good quality, but I'm in no rush.

The best thing I see is that they have a 10x40.      ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D     

Oh yes.


BTW:   MTC wrote back and told me the SWAT 12x50 has a 30ft FoV @ 100y. 

Hmm.  Well then their own website is wrong, as it says 10 meters.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the MTC techs, BTW.  I had about FIVE back & forth emails with them, just trying to get the bore-to-element height, and they literally never gave me an answer.   Luckily, Airguns of Arizona has both in stock, and salesman Chris was nice enough to meaasure them for me.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 03:49:26 AM by Cableaddict »
  • USA, NY, Suffern

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 25160
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Please help me calculate short-range adjustments !
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2021, 12:59:55 PM »
30' field of view at 100 yards is 3' at 10, and less than 2' at 6 yds.... I find that nearly impossible to use, particularly in low light / low contrast situations.... Give me a low power with a much wider field of view (and usually brighter) for close in, please.... As far as holdover vs. turret twiddling, if you have to switch from a close shot to a far one, once again MilDots are the way to go.... It's a LOT faster, and I have never had such a close shot that I couldn't use the dots, even with a Bug-Buster shooting grasshoppers at 2 yards.... Sighted at 20 yards, I can use 5 dots of holdover at 2 yards and it's dead on.... SPLAT!....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).