GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: JuryRigger on May 17, 2021, 01:38:20 PM
-
Getting ready to mount a new scope on my 350 Mag here soon; same model as I had on it before... I had some trouble with the ring screws loosening up the last time; both on the dovetail clamp(s) and the caps. I ended up torqueing them down a little more each time until they stopped coming loose; but when I went to remove them I was surprised by just how tight they ended up needing to be to accomplish that... :o
So now I am going to mount the exact same scope in the exact same way; and have some green 680 Loctite leftover from a washing machine repair... According to web searches; green 680 Loctite is a high-strength gap-filling bearing retaining compound; though some search results imply that it can be used as a threadlocker... Albeit with no mention of removability; though heat is supposed to loosen it up just the same as any other threadlocker.
So, the question is-am I taking too big a gamble to try putting just the tiniest bit on the threads; in hopes of it working; or am I better off just checking the dozen screws every so often?
Opinions/thoughts appreciated;
Jesse
-
Never use green locktite on anything unless you want it to be PERMANENT!
Use 242 (pink / purple) sparingly
if you must use threadlocker.
-
Never use green locktite on anything unless you want it to be PERMANENT!
Use 242 (pink / purple) sparingly
if you must use threadlocker.
Thanks!! I was sort of figuring it wasn't a good idea; but since I had it I thought I'd go ahead and ask anyways.... :D
Jesse
-
I never use a thread locker on scope screws, especially the rings. I'm concerned it's too easy to strip them. Instead I use a torque wrench to tighten them. After getting them all to the desired torque I go back and check them all again - sometimes I'll overlook one on the first pass.
-
222MS purple is for anything under quarter inch that you want to remove. Green will release once it reaches 450 degrees
-
Thanks for the replies; one thing that hit me a bit ago was that part of my problem with them loosening is that I mounted it fairly early in the break-in... Only had 500(??) rounds through it as of then; so that may have been part of my problem...
Am going to try juryrigging (ha!) a peep for a bit and seeing what it's like before I mount the new scope...
And when I do mount it; there will be no loctite involved!
Thanks again;
Jesse
-
Have you taken into account that most scope mounts are aluminum?
-
Have you taken into account that most scope mounts are aluminum?
I'm afraid that I don't know what you mean... Which probably means that I haven't... ???
If you mean watching over-torqueing the screws and stripping the threads; that I am aware of and have some experience with...
If it has anything to do with the loctite idea; in relation to aluminum; then I have no clue...
Jesse
-
Yeah, I have no idea how aluminum responds to Loctite products. I swap scopes too much to use any type of thread locker.
-
I have used blue 242 Loctite for years on alum parts and rod stock with sst screws without ever having a issues. We abused the heck out of the alum and sst hardware. Disassemble throwing the hardware away and stripping the Alodine and and then re-Alodine again for our process. A small drop of loctite goes a long ways too. So many people use way to much of it on screws.
FYI, with torque settings there is a lubed torque setting and a dry torque setting.
-
Well, there ya go.... thanks Randy.
-
Thanks all! I think somewhere in my engineering notes I have a chart that lists those torque values; either that or it's in my copy of Machinery's Handbook...
Jesse
-
Green locktite is probably not a good idea. We use it to bond railroad parts that have to disassembled with hydraulic presses measured in tons. That's coming from me, a rebel here that draws fire from people when I mention I'm using red locktite on springer stock screws.
-
I second 242 blue and just a dab will do ya. FWIW a dry torque spec approximately 80% of the number value is over coming friction then the 20% is clamping force. A lubed will impart a higher clamping force at the same number value because less friction. I my self do not change the values unless I can crush something like a scope tube then I look up what the proper reduction is.
-
Also good scope mounts when torqued correctly shouldn't need locktite at all. The stretch in the fastener should be sufficient. For ring caps I wouldn't recommend over 16 in lbs. Because many scopes will oblong over that and void the warranty. Go by the scope manufacturers torque specs and not the rings. I flattened an Airmax scope using Sportsmatch specs. Their specs were for what their rings could take. Not the scope
Thread locker on stock screws helps because wood is compressible and you can't tighten the screws enough to stretch them to where they will hold.
-
GREEN color don't mien SQUAT !! without knowing the GRADE / SPEC # it is being sold as.
640 & 680 are Stud & Bearing lockers and TOUGH !!!
290 is penetrating / wicking and is of a med to lighter hold when not over applied and works great on small screws and on the receiver to dovetail contact with mount dovetails.
THERE ALL GREEN
-
GREEN color don't mien SQUAT !! without knowing the GRADE / SPEC # it is being sold as.
640 & 680 are Stud & Bearing lockers and TOUGH !!!
290 is penetrating / wicking and is of a med to lighter hold when not over applied and works great on small screws and on the receiver to dovetail contact with mount dovetails.
THERE ALL GREEN
Sorry; I should have put the grade number in the title; and not just the post... :-[ It's 680 bearing locker; was used to bond a seal ring to a shaft in the washer...
I am going to be mounting a UTG scope with the included rings; it's a warranty replacement for the other scope so identical (well; hopefully not completely since the other one failed), and I had some trouble with things sliding around a bit under the manufacturer's torque specs since the screws kept loosening up.... Kept re-snugging them back down; and they eventually held-though part of that time the rifle was likely still breaking in, so hopefully not a problem this time. Only asked about the 680 I have because I happened to have it; I have not yet found anything else around the house that really needed a threadlocker; so have been avoiding buying an expensive tube/bottle that I will hardly use...
Thanks again everybody; sorry if I caused any confusion-
Jesse
-
I use blue 242, have for years, even works with plastic
-
We use the 680 bearing loctite ar work, it works great for bearings that we don’t want to remove without heating up to 450f to get it to release. $6 bucks at Lowe’s for small tube of 242 loctite. If you use the 680 on a small screw on a scope mount have to heat it to remove it, the scope mount is thick compared to the scope and you could damage the scope for the price of 6 bucks so it’s not worth it IMO.
-
Just got done mounting the new scope(dry-no loctite); maybe eventually I will pick up a tube of the proper 242 blue loctite and redo it...
On a side note, check out the scope rings (will be in another post; for whatever -ugh- reason I cannot post my message and pics at once...)
Old in the first pics, new in the third
Jesse
-
Having technical difficulties posting pics, not that it was important anyways just odd... The old rings "leaned" to one side; while the new ones sat level like they should...
Old rings-
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7902)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7901)
New rings-
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7903)
Jesse
-
I don't understand the problem with the rings. They're UTG rings? If so they are cast and then machined for fasteners. There should be enough room in the fastener holes to allow the caps and base to center properly on the scope tube. They're decent rings and will get the job done but you can't expect high end tolerances from ten dollar rings. I used them for years but when my budget allowed I moved away from UTG rings (and scopes). I now use Sportsmatch rings. They're better made and very reasonably priced for the quality.
Second thought is if you over tighten the rings you can bend the ears out of shape. By time this happens you'd likely have kinked the scope tube and figured out the deformed rings.
-
Ron… I don't think the OP's issue is with the screws that secure the scope to the rings. I think he is referring to the screws that secure the rings to the rail on the gun. Please pardon me if I am wrong.
Edit.... after rereading the original post, I see that he mentions both areas... nevermind… ;)
-
I don't understand the problem with the rings. They're UTG rings? If so they are cast and then machined for fasteners. There should be enough room in the fastener holes to allow the caps and base to center properly on the scope tube. They're decent rings and will get the job done but you can't expect high end tolerances from ten dollar rings. I used them for years but when my budget allowed I moved away from UTG rings (and scopes). I now use Sportsmatch rings. They're better made and very reasonably priced for the quality.
Second thought is if you over tighten the rings you can bend the ears out of shape. By time this happens you'd likely have kinked the scope tube and figured out the deformed rings.
Whoops! Sorry for the lack of clarity; as I was fighting with pics and did not write my posts too clearly...
The intent of my original post was simply to ask if using green 680 loctite on the scope rings screws (caps and base) was a bad idea (it was)... I mentioned that I had some trouble at first with the screws loosening up on me; though they eventually held (whether due to break-in of the gun completing or just a matter of torque)... So that was why I asked about the loctite; to potentially avoid having any issues with loosening screws...
I added the pics of the (UTG-they came with the scope) rings just as an aside; on the old rings the bases were not machined/extruded to the same dimensions.... I noticed it when I first took them out of the package; that either the recess for the clamp shoe was too shallow; resulting in it pushing that side of the ring "up" creating a tilt of sorts; or the clamp shoe was too wide... It didn't really affect how well they worked; with both rings in-line and the base clamp screws on the same side; the bores were concentric-so they worked OK. I just thought it was striking when I pulled out the new rings; and compared them-since the new rings sat dead flat and level...
Sorry to have caused confusion; like I said the rings sitting crooked it was just an aside and not a related issue
Thanks all;
Jesse
-
My bad. I misunderstood the concern. If you flip over the clamps on the tilted ones, to they flatten out?
-
No problem; all's good... :D
I tried that; but the "hook" on the other end doesn't match the dovetail at all... However; if I ever want to use those rings on something else; it wouldn't take much file work to level things out.... And for the moment; I only have one gun (crying shame that is, LOL...) so the new rings that came with the replacement scope cover my needs.
Jesse
-
It's my opinion that you've tightened the rail lock screws so much that the wedges have been distorted. This distortion makes the rings lean when presented on a flat surface like in your photos. Your better option on that magnum springer may be a one piece mount with a pin lock.
-
It's my opinion that you've tightened the rail lock screws so much that the wedges have been distorted. This distortion makes the rings lean when presented on a flat surface like in your photos. Your better option on that magnum springer may be a one piece mount with a pin lock.
They actually came that way out of the box... Had the new ones and noticed they were different; so snapped a pic of them side-by-side for the heck of it... Though a one-piece mount is something I may also look into eventually; especially if I can find one that incorporates a rubber damper like the Webley Dampa mounts did...
Jesse
-
One last thing I want to clarify; since I'd imagine any folks who have been reading might think I have said two different things regarding how tight I got the screws on the original mounts....
That is actually because I have; let me explain... The scope that I have been using has been partially broken for some time; I made a warranty claim during a time when things were shut down fairly tightly-UTG sent me a replacement scope at no cost without me sending the old one back in.... Up to that time; I had only ever tightened the screws on the ring caps/base to the manual's torque specs; and had some trouble with things sliding around. After the replacement scope arrived; I decided to squeeze the last life out of the old one-even though both side reticle elements were gone; I was going to use it until it simply could not be used at all.... I even had to rotate and glue the reticle ring back at one point; since it had broken free and was sitting at a 45-degree angle... At that point I went ahead and started cranking things down-no reason not to, since the scope was already on it's way out; I had no concerns about damaging anything because it was already dead....
That is why the conflicting statements; since I did actually do both things.... both careful nit-picking velvet glove treatment; and ham-fisted everything's-a-hammer torque wrenching...
Jesse
-
.
.
.
After the replacement scope arrived; I decided to squeeze the last life out of the old one-even though both side reticle elements were gone; I was going to use it until it simply could not be used at all....
. . . At that point I went ahead and started cranking things down-no reason not to, since the scope was already on it's way out; I had no concerns about damaging anything because it was already dead....
That is why the conflicting statements; since I did actually do both things.... both careful nit-picking velvet glove treatment; and ham-fisted everything's-a-hammer torque wrenching...
Jesse
That is called "destructive testing"
L. O. L.
One of my favorite things to do!
Hunter