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Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: mwgm2020 on February 27, 2021, 03:04:05 AM
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
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Stephen,
I have a lot of respect for the older black sighted P17s. I've never got used to the true glow glare, some flat black paint might cure that. The P17s can be tune to have great trigger and mine have more accuracy that I can used. Practice, practice, and practice some more, and you will be a contender.
BobH.
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
Stephen,
Are you looking into 10M competition?
How serious are you about competition?
What is your gun budget to start?
You could start with a P-17 for less than $50. It's accurate enough to start, but not much more. Maybe one of the Diana's would work. Maybe an Air Venturi V10, or AV-46? If you have enough in your budget, the Hammerli AP-20 is a great starting pistol for 10M. There's also the Alpha Proj and Ataman AP16.
Consider this when choosing . . . If choosing PCP or CO2, you want to be able to shoot a minimum of 60 shots per fill. ISSF competitions are 60 shots plus the finals. Single pumps will work, as long as you can pump and shoot 60 shots in 75 minutes.
There is a lot to consider. If you think you're going to take this seriously, I would recommend starting with a Hammerli AP-20 or the AP-20 PRO. The Alpha Proj is good as is the Ataman AP-16. If you're really serious, look into a Steyr, Morini, Walther, FWB, or Pardini. This last group will enable you to shoot a lifetime and not need to upgrade - you will not need to re-learn to shoot a different pistol. The group of pistols in this paragraph are PCP 's.
Probably the best advice is . . . Buy the best pistol you can afford - make certain it fits your hand and you can shoot it comfortably for 70 + shots.
This info i provide is rather vague, but should get you started thinking - and asking more questions. Ac12 should chime in soon, as he has been shooting competitions for quite some time and offers great advice.
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@Duckster is spot on.
How serious are you, and what is your budget?
Do you "think" you might shoot competition matches, or just casual shooting at home?
Regulation matches are more of an operational issue. Gas capacity becomes an issue.
If casual shooting at home, things become less of an issue.
Types of gun/charging method:
If you have a compressed gas setup (co2 or CA/PCP), that would be the natural choice.
CA/PCP is the current standard.
Some guns have problems with co2 in high or low temp. This is why the industry moved from co2 to CA/PCP.
All I can say about that is, I have shot from the high 40F to about 105F, without problems, with MY co2 AP.
co2 cartridge is OK, but because of how much you will be shooting, it can/will get expensive fast. You have to buy them in bulk, to control the cost. I have not shot a co2 cartridge AP in a long time, so I don't remember how many good shots you get out of a cartridge. That could be an issue at a regulation match.
If you don't already have a compressed gas setup (co2 or CA/PCP) and don't want to go compressed gas, SSP is a good option. SSP is also good if you travel, no hassles with a tank of compressed gas. But working the charging lever can be hard on your arm. This depends on the specific AP and the strength of your arms, some guns are harder to charge than others.
I would NOT go with a multi-pump. I do not know of any multi-pump target AP.
Spring match APs (like the FWB-65, or the Diana-10) are OK for casual target use, but not for serious competition.
Spring match guns, AP and ARs were made obsolete by the accuracy of the SSP and compressed gas guns.
But they are fun to shoot :-)
What is important? For me, the critical items are the grip, trigger and sight.
- Grip: If the grip does not fit your hand, and you can't easily reach the trigger, you can't shoot it well. This is more important for the fitted target grips. Wood grips can be filed and filled to fit, plastic grips are harder to modify to fit. The palm support is important for longer barreled APs, where the CG is forward of your hand.
Grips like on the P17 are fairly adaptable to many people.
- Trigger: The trigger is absolutely CRITICAL. It has to be SMOOTH. If it is not SMOOTH, your mind will be distracted from holding the sight picture, by you having to fight the trigger, and your score will drop.
AP triggers have to have at least 500g weight (mine is 550+g). Triggers are weighed at regulation matches (with a dead weight, not a scale), and it is pass/no-pass.
Rolling or crisp like a "glass rod breaking" is personal choice. Mine is rolling.
- Sight: You need a GOOD sight picture. Preferably with sights that are EASY to see. Blade front. Rear sight should be easily adjustable; best with a finger knob, OK with screwdriver, but NOT anything that you have to drift to adjust. Once set, you normally don't adjust the sight, but if you have to, you don't want it to be a PITA to do.
For a similar price, I would rather get a used tier 1 AP than a new tier 2 or 3 AP.
In fact that I what I did. Both of my match APs are used.
Even today, I would take my old obsolete Walther CPM1 over the Alpha Project AP.
For a more entry level, I don't know, as I have not looked at the market for a long time.
The old entry level choice was the Daisy 717/747, but that is long out of production.
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Some more rambling thoughts.
I do not like top closing SSPs like the P17 and Gamo Compact.
For some reason, I keep dreading that I will get my fingers clamped on when I close the top. :'(
Having said that, the Gamo Compact (aka Air Venturi V10) has been a successful entry target gun for years.
If it works for you, go for it.
On the other hand, side lever SSPs, like the out of production Daisy 717/747, can be tricky to charge. Because the charging motion is to the right, not down into your hand, like the top charging SSPs.
I really like the 7x7 APs because it can be easily dry fired. Just like the 853, cocking the striker is separate from charging the gun. In fact I used to dry fire my 747 a lot, because my Pardini did not have a dry fire option.
When I was younger, I used to love co2 cartridges, cuz I hated pumping an air gun.
But a co2 cartridge has a somewhat small capacity. You have to know about when the gas will start to run out and the velocity drop, and change cartridges BEFORE that point. If this is in the middle of a match, it is a regassing problem like with the Alpha Project AP.
I had thought about the Crosman 2300T, as another gun to "play" with, but decided against it. It is rated for about 40 shots per cartridge. So two maybe THREE cartridges per match! My practice was about 100 shots, so three cartridges each time I practice. Five days of practice a week = 15 cartridges a week :(
The similar 1701P which is a CA gun was interesting, but is only rated for 50 shots before needing a gas refill. That will require a regassing in the middle of a match. Crosman made the same mistake with the Challenger 2009 target rifle. Not enough gas to reliably finish a full match.
The IZH-46 (aka AV-46) is a well respected starter AP. But it is a rather heavy AP.
But, here is the rub. When you pay $600+ for that AP, you are close to the price of a Hammerli AP20, or a used tier 1 AP. I went for a used Pardini K58, and am happy that I did.
The Alpha Project AP was a good try that missed.
The #1 issue for me is the limited gas capacity. I noticed that the shot count per charge wasn't even listed in the specs. I wonder why? I had to dig in the review to see what people were getting, about 80 shots.
80 shots is marginal for a match. 20 shot sighters + 60 shots match, and you have nothing left for a finale (if you have to shoot one). Even 20+60 leaves you "running on fumes," with the risk of running out of gas. So, you have to regas in the middle of a match. For a 10m competition gun, this is a big failing.
Grip: In my experience, ambi target grips are neither right nor left grip. IOW it does not feel "right" for either hand. The dedicated RH target grip is another $170, and the Alpha is now over $1,000.
For over $1,000, I would definitely get a used tier 1 AP.
And this is significantly more than a Hammerli AP20.
For the Crosman and Alpha Project APs, for casual shooting at home, the need to regass in the middle of a home match is not the big deal it is when shooting a regulation match at a meet.
Note: For air guns which are NOT specifically designed for target shooting, a difficult item is the trigger. You really want a trigger that is adjustable for weight.
If the trigger weight is NOT adjustable (like the P3 and P17), you are stuck with what it is. If it is under 500g, it could become difficult to increase the weight, to make it legal. If it is way over 500g, how do you reduce the weight? You could reduce trigger weight by clipping turns off a spring (like an unmodified 853), but that is a crude and difficult way to set the trigger weight.
From personal experience, what you tested OK at home may be marginal to failing at equipment check. This is why we do not set up close to the 500g limit, it is too easy to fail the test. The official weight used by equipment check is the only weight that matters. You fail that, and you don't shoot.
Then what do you do if you fail the trigger weight test? Go into a corner, and tear the gun down to replace the spring? Turning a screw is MUCH easier.
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My trip has been slightly different than ac12's, yet very similar.
I was fortunate enough to start by shooting rental air pistols. Started with SSP, then cheap PCP's with ambidextrous grips, and finally a precision PCP. I tried and liked the Hammerli AP-20, but found the AP-20 Pro to be much better. Got to shoot a friend 's Walther (500 I believe) along with an FWB, Pardini and a few othes. I researched no less than 5 different air pistols.
I decided that I wanted to buy a new one. I did not want to purchase a used pistol and take the chance of buying someone else's problem, even though the chance of that happening would be very slim. I found the Morini 162Ei fit me better than any of the others. It just felt better in my hand, so I bought it. Brand new. My preference with this pistol was to buy the best I could afford and keep it.
I'm shooting 5-6 days a week, with 12 matches scheduled for this year - the big one being a 2-day match. I made a decision early on that I was going to enter this sport and stick with it. I did. I am hooked. I am truly grateful that I invested in a high quality pistol that I didn't lose trust in its accuracy. I knew if I had a flyer (or more than one) that it was caused by me and not the gun. That caused me to be more focused on technique and not the gun.
This is what is working for me. Will it work for you?
If you continue down this path, make certain you start with a quality pistol. Otherwise, you'll only become discouraged and lose interest. Hammerli AP-20 Pro would be my recommendation as an entry-level PCP pistol, provided your seriously considering 10M pistol competition.
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Stephen, if you want to do a search here I had a thread a couple years ago titled almost identical to yours.
Great info there.
These guys know their stuff, I am still a Rookie at 10M pistol and have no club to shoot with... Just myself indoors at home.
I did not see where anyone mentioned "The Box".
If you go to a match the pistol has to fit inside of a box of specific dimension. 42cm x 20cm x 5cm
So far I shoot my 1701P and get about 65 shots per fill. a down side is it comes without sight. and match grade sights aren't cheap.
I then lucked out and got a Listone Victor from AirGunArcheryFun.com. It is a Chinese clone of a AlphaProj and for what it cost I am very happy with it.
Might try contacting (PM) WesBob and ask if he is going to get any more.
I would watch PilkGuns and pick up a used "name brand" Tier II gun. https://www.targettalk.org/viewforum.php?f=7 (https://www.targettalk.org/viewforum.php?f=7)
Most target shooter take very good care of their guns, so getting a good one is pretty safe.
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One difficulty with target APs is, finding a gun that "fits" your hand.
Without having access to guns to hold, you have no idea what will fit your hand.
And even when you do, what size is the grip vs. your hand? If you have small hands, it makes no sense to hold a gun with a large grip. I tried that a few times, and it was a useless exercise. I could not shoot the pistol cuz the grips were too big.
If you deal with a GOOD dealer, some can take an outline of your hand and do a decent job of selecting the proper grip size.
Grips from the different manufacturers can be/are different. Example, my Walther had to have a LOT of wood removed from the grip to fit my hand. Whereas my Pardini fit almost perfect with no fussing with the grip.
So what size grip to get??? And does the gun even come in different size grips.
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
Stephen,
as Duckster, ac12 and Hoosier Daddy have all expressed, i, too, can tell you what has worked for me. and what i have done.
you need to ask what will work for you. how serious are you and how far do you want to go down this avenue ?? being from Connecticut, are there many places to shoot 10M competition? there are places in Jersey and New York, but are they close enough for you to travel to ??
a word of caution . . . as someone alluded to earlier, if you get a low budget gun, you may not get the accuracy you desire. you'll soon get frustrated and discouraged as you cannot hit the black easily or often. should you get a higher budget pistol, take care of it and then a year from now decide you do not want to continue, it will be much easier to sell and you can minimize your loss, as there are a good number of pistol shooters in your general area that may be interested in it.
i shoot with a number of competitors from your region. if you are aware of some air pistol groups or clubs, visit and talk to them. ask for their experience and suggestions. there is a lot to consider, and it all boils down to how far you want to pursue this endeavor and to what level you want to achieve.
i wish you the best in your decision making . . . there is a lot to consider.
it is easy to become addicted to 10M pistol shooting - but then it becomes an obsession, followed by a passion.
if you think you're still interested after reading all these replies, then GO FOR IT !
i wish you the very best, my friend.
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Chico, we really need to hook up sometime! I could certainly stand a lesson or two.
Next time I go Perch fishing I will PM you.
Maybe meet at CMP? ;)
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My wife is considering joining a 'local' club for an all ladies introductory pistol competition and they recommended the Diana Bandit but with a new grip. We worked to custom fit the grip for her and now it fits very well.
I have bench fired this pistol and it is capable of hole in hole performance from a ransom rest but the trigger did need a lot of work and a lot of Loctite blue to hold the screws in place after adjusting them all.
Will she be getting a better gun? IF she shoots well, she will spend the money, if not, she will shoot for the company and companionship but will likely stay with the Bandit.
It is a PCP, she can get 2 magazines (14 shots) from a fill before it falls off.
Good luck with your search!
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I have a P-17, 1377, and a Benji H9 and while they have decent accuracy, I can not imagine shooting a match (60 shots) with either.
Still want a Daisy 7X7... but I fear I am spoiled already. ::)
Only way to go is "up"!
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I have a P-17, 1377, and a Benji H9 and while they have decent accuracy, I can not imagine shooting a match (60 shots) with either.
Still want a Daisy 7X7... but I fear I am spoiled already. ::)
Only way to go is "up"!
Hoosier Daddy, for your step-up i would suggest the Hammerli AP-20, but the AP-20 Pro is a bit better and well worth the slight extra money.
before you step-up, shoot mine to see how you like it. it's not a Hammerli, but you'll get a feel of one. i'm not that far away, and if i detour thru Angola to see the changes at Trine, it would be a a double-treat.
i would welcome the opportunity to shoot with you - here, there, in between or Camp Perry. now that i have most weekends off, it's easier to make travel plans
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My wife is considering joining a 'local' club for an all ladies introductory pistol competition and they recommended the Diana Bandit but with a new grip. We worked to custom fit the grip for her and now it fits very well.
Will she be getting a better gun? IF she shoots well, she will spend the money, if not, she will shoot for the company and companionship but will likely stay with the Bandit.
Firewalker,
good for you - great for your wife.
encourage her all the way - it's easy to get discouraged at points along the way, but staying with it and practicing helps it smooth out along the way. maybe having her shoot indoors at home would help her along. all she needs is encouragement and support along the way.
my cousin was Navy, his son is Navy, and my life-long childhood friend was on a nuclear sub - thank you for your service, sir.
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
Buy a P17 for $33 and shoot it while you are deciding what else to buy.
All airgun nuts need 1 or 2 P17s.
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Chuck, you are welcome, it was my absolute pleasure to serve this nation and all whom reside legally.
I did make a 10m range for her with a good pellet trap, all steel, 16"x16" (2 full letter size sheets side by side) across and a loading station right next to the shooting line. I pump her gun for her but will be buying a briefcase compressor this month for her to fill the Bandit herself.
A better gun? That depends on the peer group, this small group all decided on the same gun to start with so the playing field is even for now. Time will tell?
My wife is considering joining a 'local' club for an all ladies introductory pistol competition and they recommended the Diana Bandit but with a new grip. We worked to custom fit the grip for her and now it fits very well.
Will she be getting a better gun? IF she shoots well, she will spend the money, if not, she will shoot for the company and companionship but will likely stay with the Bandit.
Firewalker,
good for you - great for your wife.
encourage her all the way - it's easy to get discouraged at points along the way, but staying with it and practicing helps it smooth out along the way. maybe having her shoot indoors at home would help her along. all she needs is encouragement and support along the way.
my cousin was Navy, his son is Navy, and my life-long childhood friend was on a nuclear sub - thank you for your service, sir.
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My wife is considering joining a 'local' club for an all ladies introductory pistol competition and they recommended the Diana Bandit but with a new grip. We worked to custom fit the grip for her and now it fits very well.
I have bench fired this pistol and it is capable of hole in hole performance from a ransom rest but the trigger did need a lot of work and a lot of Loctite blue to hold the screws in place after adjusting them all.
Will she be getting a better gun? IF she shoots well, she will spend the money, if not, she will shoot for the company and companionship but will likely stay with the Bandit.
It is a PCP, she can get 2 magazines (14 shots) from a fill before it falls off.
Good luck with your search!
The Diana Bandit is a neat pistol.
FINALLY a pistol with the bolt arm on the left hand side. With the Daisy 747, I have to work the right side bolt with my left hand, rather clumsy for a rightie.
I would get the loading tray, switch out the magazine for the loading tray, then load it single shot.
There has always been the fear that pushing a pellet from the mag into the chamber could distort the pellet. You are relying on the alignment of the magazine cylinder, to not mangle the pellet when you push the bolt forward.
Manually single loading also reduces the chance of double loading by accidentally working the bolt twice.
For single shot shooting, to organize your pellets when you shoot, this is what I use:
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CCMB (http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CCMB)
Poor the pellets onto the yellow top, shake it side to side, the pellets will drop into the holes front down :)
When you shoot, it is easy to keep track of how many shots you shoot and where you are in the match.
I read the Bandit manual, and it seems you can adjust the sear engagement, but not the trigger weight. Is that correct? If so, that seems odd. Or maybe like the 888 as you adjust the sear engagement, you are also adjusting the spring pressure, so less engagement also = heavier trigger weight.
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
a word of caution . . . as someone alluded to earlier, if you get a low budget gun, you may not get the accuracy you desire. you'll soon get frustrated and discouraged as you cannot hit the black easily or often. should you get a higher budget pistol, take care of it and then a year from now decide you do not want to continue, it will be much easier to sell and you can minimize your loss, as there are a good number of pistol shooters in your general area that may be interested in it.
i shoot with a number of competitors from your region. if you are aware of some air pistol groups or clubs, visit and talk to them. ask for their experience and suggestions. there is a lot to consider, and it all boils down to how far you want to pursue this endeavor and to what level you want to achieve.
Shooting an AP is HARD.
It is orders of magnitude harder than shooting an AR. Just compare the size of the targets.
If you don't have the technique, you are in for a steep climb. You need training.
When I first started shooting 10m AR, I could NOT keep all my shots inside the 1-ring, and sometimes I missed the entire target. :o It was so BAD that I was close to giving up. :'(
Out of despiration I went to a coach, and got training.
With training and practice, I learned to easily keep all my shots in the black.
Personal training/coach, good books, etc.
Outside view: Have someone video you from the side and back, and study the video. Look for stuff that you are doing, that you might not be aware of.
- Time your hold, are you rocking on your feet, are you tensing up, etc.
Shooting AP requires training, concentration and LOTS of practice.
And attention to detail. There are lots of little things that can destroy your scores.
Example1. Your shoes.
You NEED to be stable on the ground. If you are shooting in worn shoes, you will rock back on the worn heels. When I read about it, it was a DUH moment. My shoes had a worn heel, and I struggled to not rock backwards, but did not think about the shoe. DUH. :o
Get a pair of FLAT skateboard shoes, and only use them for AP shooting. When the heel wears, and you feel it rocking, replace it.
Example2. You have to pull the trigger STRAIGHT BACK. If you pull to the right or push to the left, you will do that to the pistol, and you shot will go off to the side. I spent MANY MANY WEEKS dry firing, to get my finger trained to go STRAIGHT BACK.
For a rifle shooter, with the mass of a rifle and holding it at three points, this is a minor issue. So I had to relearn how to pull the trigger of a pistol.
Example3. If you listen to the phrase that is often said by men, "push through it." You think that if you work hard enough you will get the shot off good. BUT, in reality, the longer you hold, the WORSE your shot will likely be. Your arm get tired, your body is using the oxygen in the blood, etc.
General rule: You need to get the shot off in the first 5 to 6 seconds. After that your wobble will increase, and the likelihood of a trigger snatch and bad shot will increase.
Catch 22. If you count in your head, you are not concentrating on holding the sight picture. Then how do you know what is 5 seconds??? Have someone with you time you, so you don't have to count. Gradually, you will develop an internal clock that will tell you when you hit 5 seconds.
Related to #3 is one of the HARDEST things that I had to learn to do . . . ABORT THE SHOT.
It was REALLY REALLY HARD to learn to abort the shot, and put the gun down. Then rest and start again.
The emotional part of the brain is yelling "DON'T GIVE UP."
The analytical part of the brain is saying, "your hold is getting BAD, abort and start over."
98% of the time, if I did not abort a worsening hold, the shot was BAD.
It takes a LOT of 10s to make up for a shot into the 1-ring. And in a tight match, you can't make it up, you just lost the match.
Example4. Cut the caffeine.
I used to drink 4 to 6 cups of coffee before lunch and 4 after lunch. If I shot in the evening, that was a lot of caffeine messing up my muscles. The DUH moment came when one day I picked up a pen, and saw that it was shaking in my hand. :o
Finally, keep a shooting notebook and good notes.
Example, I am NOT a morning person. Yet, based on my records, I consistently shot my best scores in the morning, not in the evening when I felt better and more awake. I would not have known that if I had not kept records.
When you try something different, put it in your notebook.
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I did make a 10m range for her with a good pellet trap, all steel, 16"x16" (2 full letter size sheets side by side) across and a loading station right next to the shooting line. I pump her gun for her but will be buying a briefcase compressor this month for her to fill the Bandit herself.
A better gun? That depends on the peer group, this small group all decided on the same gun to start with so the playing field is even for now. Time will tell?
Watch the side by side targets.
I have visual trouble with my sight picture, if the bull is close to the edge of my trap.
You have a larger trap than I do, so it may not be a problem for her.
Check the lighting on her garage range.
I put a flood lamp on my target (and the surrounding area), to get enough lighting to easily see the target, and not strain my eye.
Interesting and nice idea to standardize on one gun.
That keeps it from developing into an expensive equipment race. Which then becomes a "have and have not," where income becomes a driving factor.
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Firewalker,
i really like your wife's opportunity - keeping all participants using identical guns is a great idea. i wish her the best !
to add to something ac12 mentioned - i keep a light over the target as he does, but i also keep a light over the firing point. because we only shoot iron sights, having a light above the firing point makes for seeing the front sight much easier.
it's always a good thing when husband and wife can go out to the garage and plink around for a while.
hope these suggestions help !
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What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting. Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?
Stephen,
Are you looking into 10M competition?
How serious are you about competition?
What is your gun budget to start?
You could start with a P-17 for less than $50. It's accurate enough to start, but not much more. Maybe one of the Diana's would work. Maybe an Air Venturi V10, or AV-46? If you have enough in your budget, the Hammerli AP-20 is a great starting pistol for 10M. There's also the Alpha Proj and Ataman AP16.
Consider this when choosing . . . If choosing PCP or CO2, you want to be able to shoot a minimum of 60 shots per fill. ISSF competitions are 60 shots plus the finals. Single pumps will work, as long as you can pump and shoot 60 shots in 75 minutes.
There is a lot to consider. If you think you're going to take this seriously, I would recommend starting with a Hammerli AP-20 or the AP-20 PRO. The Alpha Proj is good as is the Ataman AP-16. If you're really serious, look into a Steyr, Morini, Walther, FWB, or Pardini. This last group will enable you to shoot a lifetime and not need to upgrade - you will not need to re-learn to shoot a different pistol. The group of pistols in this paragraph are PCP 's.
Probably the best advice is . . . Buy the best pistol you can afford - make certain it fits your hand and you can shoot it comfortably for 70 + shots.
This info i provide is rather vague, but should get you started thinking - and asking more questions. Ac12 should chime in soon, asGr he has been shooting competitions for quite some time and offers great advice.
Great questions. Yes, I want to try 10-meter competitions. I don't how serious I want to get because I have never shot in pistol competition. I am new to shooting sports and only started shooting this past spring, after buying a PCP rifle to deal with some pests. I found I really enjoy target shooting and have bought a second PCP rifle in .177 to, hopefully, try field target this spring and summer. I have a 10-meter range in my basement and thought I would like to try pistol shooting too. There are 10-Meter pistol competitions being held in my state. It looks like something fun to do, shooting-wise, indoors, in the winter.
Budget..... I would like to keep it to $100 or less. That way if I find I don't enjoy pistols or have no talent shooting them, it won't be a big loss. Also, I am still hand-pumping the rifles and would like to buy a tank and/or compressor soon. Also... $$$$ and Wife!!!
I know virtually nothing about competition target pistol. No idea what can and cannot be used or is worth using. I have a big learning curve.
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Oh, Firewalker - I forgot . . . Let me know what you think of that Diana Bandit. I've been thinking about getting one because . . . Well . . . I don't have one. Any reply will be appreciated.
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Thanks Chuck, I will pass on all your advice and that from the others. Never hurts to have some good people backing you, right?
I have competed in pistol 'back in the day' with .38 special with my Dan Wesson model 15 but never with an airgun. I dont have a lot to tell her since I shot timed targets on steel only, no bullseyes.
The 'club' she wants to join is very informal, non-timed, each person gets a lane and sends so many down for each target. I think its more of a social thing frankly but I'll never spoil it for her.
Firewalker,
i really like your wife's opportunity - keeping all participants using identical guns is a great idea. i wish her the best !
to add to something ac12 mentioned - i keep a light over the target as he does, but i also keep a light over the firing point. because we only shoot iron sights, having a light above the firing point makes for seeing the front sight much easier.
it's always a good thing when husband and wife can go out to the garage and plink around for a while.
hope these suggestions help !
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Stephen,
i'm not real familiar with them, but look into the Beeman 2027, the Diana Chaser and the Diana Bandit. you mentioned the Crosman 1377 in your initial post. that may work, but i believe you may be better to start with a PCP or CO2. pumping the Crosman for a 60 shot match might add quite a bit to the fatigue factor.
if possible, attend one of these matches to get the feel of what all is happening. it will be a good opportunity to talk to a competitor. you can also talk to one of the range officers. they are usually experienced shooters themselves and will be more than willing to help you, especially if you start asking questions about the rules and/or procedures. a lot can be learned by being a spectator.
being able to shoot in the basement is a tremendous boost. you can shoot every day - rain or shine - and improve rather quickly.
it's not going to be an easy adventure. it's going to take a lot of work. i would suggest that you take 60 shots at your very first target - place that target in a drawer. leave it there. then, in a couple months, or whenever you start to get frustrated, pull out that first target and compare it to your current one. look at how you've improved. then put those two back in the drawer. you can update the targets at whatever interval you choose - monthly, quarterly, semi-annually - whatever you prefer.
competition pistol shooting, they say, is more challenging than rifle shooting. regardless of which route you choose, you will only get out of the sport, what you put into it.
there are (2) books that helped me and i would recommend - "With Winning in Mind" by Lanny Bassham, and "Bullseye Mind" by Raymond Prior, PhD.
for rifle shooting, i read (2) great books by David Tubb and would highly recommend them.
i am currently reading a book for "Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting," but that's for a different day.
hope some of this helps you along your way. anytime you have questions feel free to PM me, or open a thread and we'll all help as best as we can. don't get in too much of a rush, keep up your research with diligence and make good decisions.
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Charlie, I really like the gun. I spend some time with the wood working tools and a lot of back and forth fitting the grip to my wife's hands until it pointed instinctively and shot center of target. The grip is large so there is plenty of wood to hog off. If you have large hands, this may fit fine but for me even, the grips were enormous!
Hang on while I shoot a magazine from 10m since I am working on my informal 10m for Brett's post and I have the lights on, table set up and pellets out....
OK, not bad, could have used a few cups less coffee this morning. :o
Oh, Firewalker - I forgot . . . Let me know what you think of that Diana Bandit. I've been thinking about getting one because . . . Well . . . I don't have one. Any reply will be appreciated.
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Thanks David.
I suggested this gun, the Chaser and a Beeman to the OP as ones to consider for 10M shooting. I don't believe he would be happy with a pump pistol.
I believe I'll look into the Bandit for my next purchase - after I pick up my Air Venturi/Springfield Armory M1A next weekend.
Thanks for your report, David.
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Great questions. Yes, I want to try 10-meter competitions. I don't how serious I want to get because I have never shot in pistol competition. I am new to shooting sports and only started shooting this past spring, after buying a PCP rifle to deal with some pests. I found I really enjoy target shooting and have bought a second PCP rifle in .177 to, hopefully, try field target this spring and summer. I have a 10-meter range in my basement and thought I would like to try pistol shooting too. There are 10-Meter pistol competitions being held in my state. It looks like something fun to do, shooting-wise, indoors, in the winter.
Budget..... I would like to keep it to $100 or less. That way if I find I don't enjoy pistols or have no talent shooting them, it won't be a big loss. Also, I am still hand-pumping the rifles and would like to buy a tank and/or compressor soon. Also... $$$$ and Wife!!!
I know virtually nothing about competition target pistol. No idea what can and cannot be used or is worth using. I have a big learning curve.
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CRUM, I lost my post
$100 budget is goina be tuff. But it can be done for an entry level gun.
- The Daisy 717 has been sold on eBay for under $100. You might be lucky and find similar. It is old, so expect to have to reseal the piston.
- As for the P17, why not. You have to start somewhere. Just set your expectations appropriately.
I would say shoot whatever you want to.
But there are practical exceptions:
- multi pump. As @Chico said, your arm will get tired pumping for 60+ shots, within the match period. And the other shooters probably won't like the "slap slap slap" sound of the charging handle, as that would be really distracting.
- If the gas gun cannot shoot 100 shots, you may/will have to regas the gun in the middle of the match. But most importantly, you really do NOT want to have to use a hand pump to do that. #1 you do not have time for that, and #2 you are going to get tired, which will drop your scores. Have to refill from a cartridge, tank or compressor.
- Spring. Unless you shoot a match spring pistol (like FWB-65 or Diana 10), forget the spring guns. The recoil will kill your accuracy.
- Power. NO high power pistol (spring or gas). High power guns can/will damage the traps.
- Size. As someone said, there actually is a box that the gun has to fit into (420x200x50mm). Some of the non-match guns may not fit into the box, and you will fail the equipment check.
Example1 A Crosman 2300 with a 16 inch barrel, is too long and won't fit.
Example2 A pistol with a WIDE thumb rest or BIG bolt handle may be too wide and the box won't close.
- Caliber. All regulation matches are .177 caliber pellet only. Your .22 pistol will fail the equipment check.
As for shooting.
- If it is a formal meet, check with the meet organizers, to see if your gun will be allowed to shoot. It will be the pits, if you show up and they tell you that you cannot shoot your gun.
- Casual meets will probably be more accommodating than the formal regulation meets. But check anyway, some are more accommodating that others.
Gud Luk
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Stephen,
I'll offer some insights as a new shooter in this space. Like you, I have really enjoyed my air rifles, and had dabbled in some air pistols, although mine are .22 calibers. I have a good shooting custom Crosman 1322 multi-pump, and an early version of the Artemis PP700 PCP that is amazingly accurate.
I wanted to get into target pistol, and always figured the thing holding me back from shooting pistols well was the capability of the guns - after all, I am pretty good with my air rifles. So I was able to pick up Air Arms Alfa and RH grip at a good price, only to find out what AC12 is saying is so true - shooting AP well is amazingly difficult! I have been working with it for about 6 months, and I still can't hold the black over 20 shots, and as AC12 says not taking the shot is so hard to do - and since I occasionally go ahead and fire I still get occasional shots way off the bull (1s or 2s). Here I thought the better gun would take care of those for me . . . .
It turns out that I could have done fine working on my basic skills with that PP700 (although I do like having the Alfa). For the foreseeable future, I will doing basement shooting only - in fact, I have only done 60 shots in one session once and am in no hurry to repeat it. For now I typically do some dry firing then do 30 shots in a session, so breaks to fill the gun are no issue for me. If I end up in a competition at some point, I will simply have to fill it mid session.
So here is my advice. Given your budget, get something cheap and just start working on your shooting with it. As you progress you can decide then if you want to get a purpose made target pistol. The P17 would be a good starting point, and you can keep watching a for good used one as you work. You don't need to have the better gun to start the process. If you are like me, it won't take much of a pistol for it to be more accurate than I am. Of course a good fit and ergonomics help, but even that won't move you to small groups. Sadly, everything else we do matters much more.
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Just to see if you like it, for $100 or less, the Beeman p-17 is a sound choice.
When you get into true competition guns, imagine 10-20x that.
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@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.
Do NOT ring score your target 1-10. Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.
When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10. Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.
The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores.
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.
Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s. So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots. I'll take holding the 8-ring.
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Since I have not shot a P17, I have no idea how that gun shoots.
Set a baseline, so you know what the gun will do.
Shoot off a sandbag on a stable rest. This will minimizes your hold as a variable, and gives you a good idea of what the gun itself can do.
Example, if on the rest, you can hold the 9 ring in a 10 shot string.
Then when you shoot standing unsupported, you know that you can't blame the gun for the shot in the 2-ring.
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@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.
Do NOT ring score your target 1-10. Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.
When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10. Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.
The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores.
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.
Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s. So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots. I'll take holding the 8-ring.
BRILLIANT!
I may add a key I learned about shoes.
Flat soled shoes prevent rocking as mentioned... You know what works?
"Converse All Stars"... AKA" "Cucks".
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Thank you all! What a great primer on getting into AP Target. Sorry for the late reply, suddenly busy with work. I have been reading the thread. I figured there was a lot to learn but who would have thought I would need to buy a pair of Converse sneakers too?
I've been tracking Daisy 717's on eBay. Are there any issues with older guns and modern pellets? Also, the side cock leaver of the 717 looks like a PITA.
A PCP looks like a better option than a CO2 as I already have the pump and plan on getting a tank. I am shooting 40-100 rounds a day with my rifles, and so imagine shooting the pistol an equal amount. The CO2 cartridges would add up quickly.
The Beeman 2027 and Diana Bandit are not too far out of the budget and maybe I could find a used one a bit cheaper.
Any thoughts on the Crosman 1701P Silhouette? Not in the budget range, but it reminds me of my fortitude.
A lot to think about.
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Older guns with modern pellets, no problem. I do it with my vintage 1980s guns.
Yes, the side charging lever on the 717 is awkward. Not a PITA, but it is a bit tricky figure out how to do it. But once you figure it out, it isn't bad. At least I don't remember it being an issue.
Frankly, I am more afraid of pinching my fingers/hand with a P17/P3 type gun.
IF you are thinking about shooting at a regulation match, you need to consider the size of the gun.
Some of the non 10m target guns may not fit into the box. I have my doubts about the Beeman 2027 and Diana Bandit. But for casual home use, who cares.
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As for the 1701P Silhouette, the initial price of the gun does not include a rear sight. A match grade sight like a Williams AG-FP that come on the 2300 will run you about another $100
(https://www.crosman.com/img/public/product//2/3/2300s_06.20201210221217.png?w=800&h=800&fit=max)
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(https://www.crosman.com/img/public/product//2/3/2300s_06.20201210221217.png?w=800&h=800&fit=max)
Can the bolt be moved to the other side?
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That pic is a 2300, it would require an aftermarket breech.
The 1701-P bolt is on the left side so you do not have to remove your grip when reloading... and yes, I believe it can be swapped if desired.
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@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.
Do NOT ring score your target 1-10. Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.
When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10. Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.
The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores.
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.
Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s. So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots. I'll take holding the 8-ring.
Really appreciate this... good thing to do for any shooter. Have not done any competitive shooting other than IDPA quite a few years back, and just decided would like to get into the informal pistol matches here to get more experience and keep motivated... been a while since I've shot any pistol, and finally decided to get an air pistol since much harder /no time for getting to range for an actual firearm. Nice way/method to help on tightening shot group. Once pistol gets here will get to practising and getting pistol shooting fundamentals down again, good timing since matches start in April right?
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Not sure if the original poster is still looking, but here's a good option for a decent price:
http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=63078 (http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=63078)