GTA

All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 08:01:44 AM

Title: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 08:01:44 AM
 Hey again folks,
 I am doing an overhaul of my old '77 blue streak, and I made my own valve tool to get out the retaining nut. Will I be able to push the rest of the valve out from the other end using a wooden dowel?
I wasn't sure whether there was a fixed piece in the tube preventing this.
-Jesse
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: avator on July 25, 2017, 08:06:12 AM
If I'm not mistaken that valve is soldered in.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Back_Roads on July 25, 2017, 08:30:02 AM
Best to leave the valve in , and reassemble with new parts. If their a lead seal on the open end then it is a soldered valve.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 08:32:36 AM
Ah! So that's what soldered valve means, I had been wondering. Yes, I think you're right.
I understand that the valve tool has a female threaded end for final removal of valve guts, 275" x 27 tpi, I read.
Any suggestions on improvising one, or others means for removal of internals? Want to avoid buying the tool if I can help it (as I said, I made a tool to remove the nut).
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: avator on July 25, 2017, 08:42:39 AM
If you could make it out of a threaded rod it would be an improvement over the "store bought" tool. That way you could add a washer and wingnut to twist and pull the "guts" out of the valve. Just a tip.... there should be 2 lead seals... one on top and one under the valve "guts". The one under the "guts" is hard to see. I'm not sure when the stopped using lead. Your gun may be different and may even have been resealed before. Make sure you get them both out. Reuse them if possible as opposed to the neoprene replacements.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: crittahitta on July 25, 2017, 09:11:57 AM
jlp920... can you please take pics of your homemade tool and a few of the resealing procedure? I also have an old blue streak from when i was a kid and want to reseal it. If you can it would be appreciated big time.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 09:15:00 AM
Glad to, I will document as I go and post on this thread when finished. This the video of the tool I'm making: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6t3kDdXNAw

Any suggestions on making/acquiring a threaded rod of the right pitch and diameter? I have machine shops and good hardware stores locally.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on July 25, 2017, 09:38:37 AM
Others have reported the tap needed is a hard to find size, and rather expensive when you do find it. (McMaster Carr) You may find the designated tool cheaper in the long run.  ;)
Even though I already had a nice seal kit from Rick @ Precision Pellet... I went ahead and bought a second seal kit in order to get the tool from PA.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-sheridan-repair-kit-fits-some-pre-1995-multi-pump-guns-w?a=624 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-sheridan-repair-kit-fits-some-pre-1995-multi-pump-guns-w?a=624)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 10:16:47 AM
Just found a hand tap available, 9/32 32. Can anyone confirm that's the right one?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: oldair on July 25, 2017, 01:39:26 PM
9/32 - 32 is the correct female thread to pull out the exhaust valve. 
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 25, 2017, 01:58:08 PM
Thank you. Here 'tis: http://m.ebay.com/itm/9-32-32-H3-4-Flute-Plug-Hand-Tap-M2-High-Speed-Steel-TMX-Toolmex-5-750-5353-/171466148637?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D022c99f9d10549119cb9df09cb4ea4ff%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D6%2526rkt%253D25%2526mehot%253Dag%2526sd%253D151034436542&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/9-32-32-H3-4-Flute-Plug-Hand-Tap-M2-High-Speed-Steel-TMX-Toolmex-5-750-5353-/171466148637?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D022c99f9d10549119cb9df09cb4ea4ff%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D6%2526rkt%253D25%2526mehot%253Dag%2526sd%253D151034436542&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460)

May end up wishing I just bought the tool :-)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on July 25, 2017, 03:15:57 PM
Holey COW!
That is a great price for a tap you may only use once, especially a Plug Tap.
The one I found on McMaster was $46...  ::)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 26, 2017, 01:48:15 AM
Made the tool for the retaining nut tonight-that sucker's in there! Kroiled it up, give another shot tomorrow. Tap's on the way. It'll be nice to get this thing holding a charge.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: bantam5s on July 26, 2017, 02:47:01 AM
My 1979 blue streak has a soldered in valve, and it had lead seals in it so I gave no doubt that your 1977 blue steak will be the same.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: fivestar45 on July 28, 2017, 12:10:06 PM
Made the tool for the retaining nut tonight-that sucker's in there! Kroiled it up, give another shot tomorrow. Tap's on the way. It'll be nice to get this thing holding a charge.

Be real careful, I had an E series pistol with the same super tight valve top. The square hole in the top was starting to distort so I gave another squirt of Kroil, warmed up the tube with a hair drier, and used a 1/4" impact tool on a low setting. It finally broke loose then I proceeded to continue backing it out by hand with just the cross bar in the tool. I had to work it less than 90deg's at a time out and in until it was out. In the end it managed to pull some threads (work welded?) and needed to have the remaining threads re-chased. The bad part of that is it uses a super weird dia. and pitch. I mailed it to Alan Schweitzer (AB Airgun) he had a tap made a while back with a centering collar and did a nice job of fixing the threads.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 28, 2017, 04:35:36 PM
Thanks for the heads-up, it came out pretty easy.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on July 28, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
For the lower lead seal, I was told by more than one expert it will usually stay in the gun. Tap the surface with a dental pick or piano wire. If the sealing surface sounds a dead "thud" the seal is in place. Leave it there and reuse it. You will destroy it trying to remove it.
They were right...
so far 3 in a row with no issues reusing that lower lead seal.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 28, 2017, 07:53:56 PM
 Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 30, 2017, 10:18:39 PM
Alright guys–I'm well into the teardown and I have a few questions. I'm using the Mac1 kit,, and so far I am reusing the lead washers,I don't need the neoprene washers. Also, I am going to need to enlarge the spring ID in order for the new exhaust valve to fit in it. Is that normal? (see first pic)

I strongly suspect the air leak was happening at the check valve. I smacked it with the edge of the tube accidentally–is that crease I put in it going to cause me problems? (see pic) I thought about replacing the weak check valve spring with a rather stiff one from a crosman 760 valve, but thought better of it. (see pic)

Also, take a lot at the interior shot of the empty valve housing. Look OK? I got in there with rags, but I can do more if need be.

Finally, getting the retaining nut back in seems a bit of a trick. I was careful not to cross-thread, but it still gets pretty hard about halfway through tightening it.

Finally, I've included pics of the two tools I made for the job.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Rob112o on July 31, 2017, 03:39:26 AM
You don't need a stronger spring for the valve spring. Going lighter will only benefit you. You may have to cock rifle before pumping, but that will only insure the rifle will dump a full 8 when you need full power.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 31, 2017, 12:41:13 PM
Cool, thanks for that.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on July 31, 2017, 01:02:52 PM
Alright guys–I'm well into the teardown and I have a few questions....
Also, I am going to need to enlarge the spring ID in order for the new valve guide to fit in it. Is that normal? (see pic)


I doubt you will have much luck enlarging to ID of the spring...  You might want to contact Mac1... obvious it is not the same or just reuse your original.

(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=130072.0;attach=194375;image)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on July 31, 2017, 04:44:32 PM
Oh, sorry for the confusion – those are not the springs that I was referring to. It's the exhaust valves that are different, and the large tapered spring that it connects to. I just need to file out a millimeter or so and it should fit. That is the original check valve spring and one from a Crosman 760 in that photo.
Post modified.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 03, 2017, 01:03:59 PM
Alright folks,
I'm buttoning up my blue streak and finding that I'm needing to apply a lot of pressure to get the retaining ring started with all of the guts in place. Is this normal? It feels excessive and I don't want to mangle anything.
-Jesse
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: bantam5s on August 03, 2017, 01:13:38 PM
Alright folks,
I'm buttoning up my blue streak and finding that I'm needing to apply a lot of pressure to get the retaining ring started with all of the guts in place. Is this normal? It feels excessive and I don't want to mangle anything.
-Jesse
With all the springs in there it is, but just make sure you have the tapered spring facing the right way.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on August 03, 2017, 01:20:32 PM
Agreed, takes a fair bit of pressure to compress everything to start the nut in the threads.
I also rotate it counter clock wise slowly at first to feel there the threads starting point is the slowly turn clockwise to tighten it until it just starts to snug then release pressure to make shure it triely started... then tighten fully.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 03, 2017, 01:33:15 PM
Thank you. I have the tapered spring with the large end facing down-muzzle, narrow end fit to the exhaust valve. I'll try to turn the nut left to see if that helps seat the threads.

Edit:
There's definitely something hanging up. Metal on metal, I'm gonna break something if I use any more force. I know it's the valve guide-it hangs up everything even with no springs. What I don't understand is where exactly.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 03, 2017, 04:05:55 PM
 Got it. I replaced the rearward lead washer with the neoprene one I got in the kit and it went home. I'll let you know how she shoots. Thanks a lot folks,
– JP
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 07:53:29 AM
Not holding air. Darn. How hard do I need to torque that retaining nut? I felt like it started OK but after about 3 full turns got pretty hard, and I was concerned about cross-threading. Also wondering about that check valve that I creased with the compression tube or the neoprene vs. lead washer. The air is just blowing through, which would suggest the rearward seals. I'm remembering that old saying, "If it ain't broke..."
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Back_Roads on August 04, 2017, 08:14:41 AM
 TRy cocking before pumping ?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 09:01:59 AM
No, it's not right. Need to tear it down again or send it to Jimmy Mac.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Rob112o on August 04, 2017, 01:34:11 PM
Air just blowing through the barrel? That's your valve stem hanging up on something or a bad seal. I've received "brand" new seal kits and the rubber on that had been hard/bad before.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Rob112o on August 04, 2017, 01:36:17 PM
No, it's not right. Need to tear it down again or send it to Jimmy Mac.
Send it to Scott(longhunter) he'll get it back to you long before Tim. Also, save you a few bucks on shipping as he's in WI opposed to CA
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 02:29:21 PM
OK, I'll check the valve stem-I had to turn down the diameter of the brass "nipple" on the exhaust valve-as it is it's a very tight fit in the tapered spring. Do I need to turn it down more so that it's a loose fit, as the original one was? Re. Scott' Longhunter: Will his company come up on a google search? Can I get contact info?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on August 04, 2017, 02:39:25 PM
He is a member here on the forum.
 You can search the members list for "Longhunter" and send Scott a PM.
Also, I would not expect to have to turn down any piece I bought new that was to fit my specific airgun.
Something is just not right here.
 Are you sure you got the right kit?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 02:48:43 PM
It's got the keyed rivet-that's the kit I bought. I am in touch with Jimmy Mac, I'll see how things go with them.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on August 04, 2017, 03:08:35 PM
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=130072.0;attach=194764;image)

It looks to me like you have a washer  between these to pieces that should seat against each other

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iOeo0JA3WE8/Usn7GCM8wZI/AAAAAAAACbo/5hZDsnHDpN0/w442-h589-no/IMG_2738.jpg)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 03:49:33 PM
No, that's an illusion-just some darker brass. There's nothing between them. Two washers are between the springs, as it was upon disassembly.

Can anyone speak to the creased inlet (check) valve? I smacked it with the compression tube accidentally, on its edge near where it seals. i posted a pic of it. This feels like something else though, as has been said.

 Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys! I haven't used up all my tricks yet…
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: kelvinator on August 04, 2017, 04:44:07 PM
When you pump it, what happens?
Where does the air go?
Does it fart out through the barrel?
Or does it hold the pressure of one pump but when you lift the lever for a second pump the air escapes out the tube?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Rob112o on August 04, 2017, 04:50:14 PM
No, that's an illusion-just some darker brass. There's nothing between them. Two washers are between the springs, as it was upon disassembly.

Can anyone speak to the creased inlet (check) valve? I smacked it with the compression tube accidentally, on its edge near where it seals. i posted a pic of it. This feels like something else though, as has been said.

 Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys! I haven't used up all my tricks yet…
About the check valve. To tell if you have a problem there pump the gun once and then open the pump arm and put your ear against the "do not oil" hole. You should be able to hear the air leaking/bubbling out. After a few minutes, depending on how bad the damage is, you will be out of air. Also listen for it at the muzzle end. If you open the bolt the muzzle end will get quieter as you will more easily hear the air coming out the breach.
    I almost never reuse the original valve spring. The check valve maybe depending on how much height it has passed the lip that the washer sits on. It only needs to be above that lip a tad bit.
   A step to take to help insure the right location. With no springs in the rifle. Just oring, valve stem, valve body, oring, valve nut insert that into the tube. Counterclockwise until you feel the threads drop. Now with a sharpie mark The Tool! Now you will know the depth you need to be when the springs are in.
   About the lead washers you did remove 2, right? I've had a couple of Dans that had 3 lead washers. 2 on the forward and 1 on the valve nut end. So did you make sure you removed all lead washers if you don't plan on reusing them (You should have left the forward one in place if it didn't come out with the valve during disassembly).
   Upon resealing drop the forward lead washer or oring into the tube and seat it on its ledge. Seat the valve nut oring where it needs to be on the valve body, not hap hazardly like in your pic. From here drop check valve "X" up tap on it to seat it, drop check valve spring, 1 washer, valve spring, the rest of the unit on The Tool(check valve, valve body, nut oring, nut). Now place a small square piece of cardboard or cloth on the table. Push the tool down and start turning counterclockwise, the cardboard or cloth you laid down helps to not dig itself into your table, until you feel threads drop. Turn clockwise a little. With something long and pointy check the height on opposite sides of the valve nut. If it's cross threaded there will be a height difference. Small, but a height difference.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: avator on August 04, 2017, 05:06:13 PM
You can probably get rid of one of those washers between the springs.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on August 04, 2017, 05:26:04 PM
Agreed mine only had one and I see no purpose for two....
 But that should not cause your leak, only collapse the springs more and made it a tad harder to reassemble.
Now I have read where people really had to crank on the nut to stop a leak.
 My two were both a PITA to loosen and tried to repeat the same effort of torque on reassembly.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: avator on August 04, 2017, 05:33:48 PM
Just a reminder.... that retainer nut is steel... those threads in that valve are brass.
Removing the extra washer will insure that all 8 pumps should dump. You may have to cock the gun before pumping. To store the gun with a couple pumps in it, simply hold back on the bolt, pull the trigger and ease the bolt to the closed position.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 04, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
I want to thank you right away for your help. I will be away for a few days so will not be able to apply your suggestions for a few days. I will see you all in a week or so, THANK YOU!!
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: avator on August 04, 2017, 10:11:43 PM
Cheers.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: dvups1 on August 07, 2017, 03:53:50 PM
Not holding air. Darn. How hard do I need to torque that retaining nut? I felt like it started OK but after about 3 full turns got pretty hard, and I was concerned about cross-threading. Also wondering about that check valve that I creased with the compression tube or the neoprene vs. lead washer. The air is just blowing through, which would suggest the rearward seals. I'm remembering that old saying, "If it ain't broke..."
When I built mine, I ran the threaded part in all the way with out the guts. This gave me a sense of how the threads feel and also allowed me to count how may turns were required to reach the fully seated position.  I then marked my tool at the point it protruded from the cylinder with masking tape while it was fully seated as well to give me a visual reference to go with the number of turns.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on August 07, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
How ironic... I rotated it backwards(CCW) and marked where I could feel the threads "start" on the tool.
Of Course you have to index the tool to the nut the same place and mark that too.
By "mark" I mean a line drawn with a Sharpie fine point marker...
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 11, 2017, 11:03:50 PM
Hey folks-I'm back.
Let me see if I can get to all the points.
Only 1 lead washer came out with the guts. The rearmost one.
I was also wondering whether there's a washer or seal at the front of the valve,
Where the check valve seats.

As for the retaining nut-I'm a little worried about buggering the threads in the tube.
I get about 3 full turns before it gets pretty tight, even without the guts in place.
Is that just the design, allowing for the proper torque? I'll get back with the exact # of turns I get before it gets tough. Reinstalling the lead washer made starting the threads impossible ( or required more pushing than I cared to apply) so I used one of the neo washers from the kit. Then I could get it started. It was when I was unsuccessfully attempting to start the retaining ring with the lead washer that I became concerned I'd buggered the threads. I doubt I did, though. They just weren't catching.

I'll say more after I have another go at it.
-jp
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: Rob112o on August 12, 2017, 12:23:14 AM
If you only removed one lead washer from the rear there is another one in the front. Leave it be, don't use any of the orings from the kit for the front of the valve.
   If you get something long and made of metal you can tap on the lip inside the tube. You will notice it doesn't make a metal tapping sound. Just a soft tap, like your tapping on a lead washer.
   You might have lead in the threading. Clean it out use a hard bristle toot brush or brass brush.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 12, 2017, 12:47:32 AM
You might have lead in the threading. Clean it out use a hard bristle toot brush or brass brush.
That makes sense, I'll do it.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 17, 2017, 09:26:38 PM
Anyone know the tap size for the internal threads (for the retaining nut)?
Not that I cross threaded them or anything ... ::)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: yamacharger on August 17, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
If you want to invest in a tap, then you need to buy a 21/32-32.  Yes it is wise to clean the lead out of the threads before reassembly. The valve retaining nut will go in with less effort.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 18, 2017, 09:52:03 AM
Thanks a lot. At this point I will need that tap, and the help of a machinist, or send it away.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: 20cal on August 18, 2017, 10:52:06 AM
A temporary tap can be made from a spare valve retainer nut (preferably steel) by cutting several slots into it.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: TerryM on August 18, 2017, 11:15:39 PM
  One thing I did with my valve tool as suggested by another member here made it much easier to use.  Wrapped duck tape around it so it just fits inside the tube.  Keeps the valve nut square with the threads.

(http://i.imgur.com/SkyEuel.jpg)
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: jlp920 on August 19, 2017, 12:43:25 AM
Thanks guys. If I have another go at it I will definitely be more cautious.
I may just cut my losses and send it to Mac1.
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: eeler1 on September 02, 2017, 09:36:44 PM
Lots of good advice on this thread.  If you want to see how the thing is put together, take a look here;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvTDiz5IE7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvTDiz5IE7o)


Several videos about the Dan's and Benji's, both use essentially the same valve mechanism.


So........ whatever happened?
Title: Re: Blue streak valve removal question
Post by: ped on September 03, 2017, 04:23:22 PM
never found a 21/32 tap so a mate made me a thread chaser from silver steel