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Author Topic: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight  (Read 1939 times))

Offline dtdtdtdt

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Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« on: September 30, 2020, 01:30:21 PM »
My 20 caliber D54 built by Hector-Medina was provided with his harmonic tuner(HT).  I've used the 20 caliber successfully for over two years without monkeying with the tuner.   A few months ago Nitrocrushr posted his results with his D56TH that were spectacular.  That led me back to the posts that Hector-Medina made during his development of the Harmonic Tuner.

Since I can't ever leave well enough alone, I just have to tinker with the HT on my 20 caliber and will follow up with tinkering on my .177 D54 that I purchased the Diana HPM (high performance muzzle weight ) for.  So here we go!!!
 
Since my outdoor range is a minimum 50yarder and my vision makes shooting in the sunshine problematic, I am starting at the 50' 17yd indoor range that is readily available.  I can shoot from inside my kitchen to about 30yds and will do that soon.   


First experiment - establish a base line for the current set-up.

I shot 5 consecutive 10 shot groups under the same conditions before making ANY modifications to the setup.  They are first target shown below.  Since the rifle was zeroed for 50yds from my last outdoor foray the groups center about 0.4" high at 12 o'clock from the POA.  This is nice as I didn't shoot my POA out. Average group size measured as a rectangle:  0.452" High x 0.570" wide.  The width is probably a bit wider than it should be.  The range has substantial ventilation for gun smoke and the targets are hanging from a carrier that flexes.  I try to wait until the target quits swaying but the difference is pretty small.

Second experiment:  Change the number of O-rings to see what impact they ave on accuracy. 
I started with 9, then 7, then 5, then 3 and finally 1 again.  All 10 shot groups.

I shot 3 groups with 1 o-ring to compare to the baseline.   Average was 0.44" High x 0.57"wide.  Statistically identical to the baseline.  HOWEVER:  the point of impact moved sustantially to about 1" at 10:30 o'clock.   

9 o-rings group 0.45"H x 0.77"W (note the table on the target is backwards - dyslexia??) POI 0.55"at 10:30o'clock. 
7 o-rings group 0.45H x .42"W POI 0.42" at 10:30o'clock.
5 o-rings group 0.42"H x 0.52"W. POI 0.25" at 12 0'clock. 
3 o-rings group 0.50"H x 52"W. POI 0.40" at 10:30 o'clock.

I suspect the change in POI from the 12 O'clock position was my not paying attention to whether I put the stabilizer in exactly the same alignment on the barrel.  Next series I will take that into account. 

Preliminary results:   

At this short range the accuracy was little different  except in the 9 o-ring group that may be statistically different.
Positioning of the stabilizer on the barrel and may have some impact on POI that would be eliminated in the zeroing process.   


SORRY THAT PICTURES ARE UPSIDE-DOWN.  I WISH I COULD FIGURE OUT WHY MOST OF MINE END UP THAT WAY WHEN POSTEDD!!!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 01:34:56 PM by dtdtdtdt »
  • Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Dave Thomas

5.0mm CCA/Diana54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO, 17.5fpe
4.5mm/RWS54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO 17.15fpe
4.5mm FWB300SU/Clearidge Ultra RM 3-9x32, 5.1fpe

Offline Yogi

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2020, 01:55:22 PM »
Dave,

Could you please post a picture of the contraption that you are talking about?
Upside down is fine... ;D

-Y
  • San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 6G, .177
RWS LP8 Magnum, .177
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22

Offline dtdtdtdt

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2020, 05:55:53 PM »
Yogi:

Here are the pictures.  For whatever reason my computer is being truculent and didn't want me to make them small enough to post.  I finally beat it into submission!!!

The blued steel muzzle weight is Hector's harmonic tuner.  It is bored out so that 0-rings can be put on the barrel so that the device can be adjusted forward and back to the chosen spot.  He put it on my 20 caliber D54 among others I guess.  It's purpose it to manage the barrel vibrations to help with accuracy.  Nitrocrushr has the D56 version of the same thing and posted a discussion of his results with it back in March.  That post also has a link to Hector's site where you can see much more detail. 

The shiny aluminum version is Diana's commercialization of Hector's design.  Same concept and same method except a bigger aluminum piece that has the same weight. 
  • Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Dave Thomas

5.0mm CCA/Diana54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO, 17.5fpe
4.5mm/RWS54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO 17.15fpe
4.5mm FWB300SU/Clearidge Ultra RM 3-9x32, 5.1fpe

Offline Yogi

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2020, 03:57:24 AM »
Thanks Dave,

Are all the o-rings the same size?  I figure if you change their location on the barrel, maybe having a thicker or thinner o-ring, maybe even ones that have a slightly different ID, or even different shore numbers would also be varables that would increase/decrease effectiveness?
Sorry to be long winded... ::) ::)

-Y
  • San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 6G, .177
RWS LP8 Magnum, .177
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22

Offline dtdtdtdt

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2020, 01:06:39 PM »
They are all the same size and apparent diameter. I don’t think a few thousandths difference is significant.  Look to be about 1/16th” in diameter.  I’ll measure when I get home
  • Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Dave Thomas

5.0mm CCA/Diana54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO, 17.5fpe
4.5mm/RWS54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO 17.15fpe
4.5mm FWB300SU/Clearidge Ultra RM 3-9x32, 5.1fpe

Offline Robert 5mm

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2020, 01:40:08 PM »
The O-Rings are all the same size. More O-Rings extend weight further out on barrel.
Hector sent me one to test on my Model 48 and I returned it to him.
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2020, 03:00:18 PM »
The O-Rings are all the same size. More O-Rings extend weight further out on barrel.
Hector sent me one to test on my Model 48 and I returned it to him.
Hey Robert,
If you tested Hector's Harmonic Tuner on your Model 48, what were your conclusions as to it's effectiveness?

Inquiring minds would like some feedback ;)
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
AR2079A-HPA (.177)
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
BSA R10 (.177) Huma Regulated
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT RED - (.25)
QB78 (.177) OEM

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E - Silver (.177)
HW50S (.177)
HW50S - Silver (.177)
HW80 (.20)
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Offline Robert 5mm

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2020, 04:07:27 PM »
Only shooting off hand  - I was not able to shoot accurately enough to be able to test it.
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2020, 07:24:15 PM »
Only shooting off hand  - I was not able to shoot accurately enough to be able to test it.
What a JIP .......... ::)
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
AR2079A-HPA (.177)
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
BSA R10 (.177) Huma Regulated
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT RED - (.25)
QB78 (.177) OEM

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E - Silver (.177)
HW50S (.177)
HW50S - Silver (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (HW98 stock) (.177)

Offline HectorMedina

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2020, 12:35:24 PM »

What a JIP .......... ::)

Sorry, Non-native English speaker here, exactly what is JIP?

Apologies, but searches in Google lead to various possibilities.

TIA and TLA's rule!

;-)




HM
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Offline HectorMedina

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2020, 12:44:20 PM »
My 20 caliber D54 built by Hector-Medina was provided with his harmonic tuner(HT).  I've used the 20 caliber successfully for over two years without monkeying with the tuner.   A few months ago Nitrocrushr posted his results with his D56TH that were spectacular.  That led me back to the posts that Hector-Medina made during his development of the Harmonic Tuner.

Since I can't ever leave well enough alone, I just have to tinker with the HT on my 20 caliber and will follow up with tinkering on my .177 D54 that I purchased the Diana HPM (high performance muzzle weight ) for.  So here we go!!!
 
Since my outdoor range is a minimum 50yarder and my vision makes shooting in the sunshine problematic, I am starting at the 50' 17yd indoor range that is readily available.  I can shoot from inside my kitchen to about 30yds and will do that soon.   


First experiment - establish a base line for the current set-up.

I shot 5 consecutive 10 shot groups under the same conditions before making ANY modifications to the setup.  They are first target shown below.  Since the rifle was zeroed for 50yds from my last outdoor foray the groups center about 0.4" high at 12 o'clock from the POA.  This is nice as I didn't shoot my POA out. Average group size measured as a rectangle:  0.452" High x 0.570" wide.  The width is probably a bit wider than it should be.  The range has substantial ventilation for gun smoke and the targets are hanging from a carrier that flexes.  I try to wait until the target quits swaying but the difference is pretty small.

Second experiment:  Change the number of O-rings to see what impact they ave on accuracy. 
I started with 9, then 7, then 5, then 3 and finally 1 again.  All 10 shot groups.

I shot 3 groups with 1 o-ring to compare to the baseline.   Average was 0.44" High x 0.57"wide.  Statistically identical to the baseline.  HOWEVER:  the point of impact moved sustantially to about 1" at 10:30 o'clock.   

9 o-rings group 0.45"H x 0.77"W (note the table on the target is backwards - dyslexia??) POI 0.55"at 10:30o'clock. 
7 o-rings group 0.45H x .42"W POI 0.42" at 10:30o'clock.
5 o-rings group 0.42"H x 0.52"W. POI 0.25" at 12 0'clock. 
3 o-rings group 0.50"H x 52"W. POI 0.40" at 10:30 o'clock.

I suspect the change in POI from the 12 O'clock position was my not paying attention to whether I put the stabilizer in exactly the same alignment on the barrel.  Next series I will take that into account. 

Preliminary results:   

At this short range the accuracy was little different  except in the 9 o-ring group that may be statistically different.
Positioning of the stabilizer on the barrel and may have some impact on POI that would be eliminated in the zeroing process.   


SORRY THAT PICTURES ARE UPSIDE-DOWN.  I WISH I COULD FIGURE OUT WHY MOST OF MINE END UP THAT WAY WHEN POSTEDD!!!

Dave, thanks for the effort!

POI moves because the barrel moves. EVEN if you make it a point to insert eh HPM EXACTLY in the same position every test, POI WILL move.
And this tells you how much our barrels vibrate when we shoot. And also why these little gizmos work.

Now, I have found a periodicity of about 5 ORings. Meaning that if a barrel shoots well with 1 ORings, it will shoot more or less as well with 6. And so on and so forth.
Each ORing is nominally 1.5 mm's, and there is no way to make them finer because they also need to fit between the space of barrel and HPM. The HPM I am building for the 430L uses 1 mm's ORings, but that is what is allowed intrinsically by the rifle to HPM difference. They do pose other problems, LOL!
As it is, the 1.5 mm's is a bit COARSE of an adjustment, but it is what is possible. So, doing two at a time, MAY create too expanded a view of the situation where you cannot see the trees for the forest.
Go  1 by 1.

Lastly, you are missing one step in your tests, and that is to shoot THREE pellets into a "waste bullseye" to SETTLE the HPM in place through the gun's recoil.
Once you shoot three somewhere you do not mind, then shoot a 5 shot group, or even better a 10 shot group. The fact that ALL your groups are more or less the same height tells you that you are missing something in the procedure.

Again, thanks, keep well and keep us posted!





HM
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Offline dtdtdtdt

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2020, 02:16:39 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions Hector. 

I do shoot a few pellets into the backstop before starting.  I just didn't say it in the notes. 

Regarding the step size of 2 rings per group:   My intent was to do a scoping experiment first covering the range of 0 - 9 O-rings.  (That's how many that there the baggie you sent! I may have some more but didn't see it as critical to go further at this time. I didn't do zero as the range was closing and I had to stop.  The 5 group baseline was as I found the rifle when returned from your last work on it.  It is the way it has been from the beginning as far as I know.  However, The symmetry of 1,3,5,7,9 seemed to work for me on that day.  I will do the zero base when I shoot next. 

If I found a marked difference between the steps. I would have bracketed the interesting result one at a time for at least three.  That is: if 5 had a marked change from the others I would do 3,4,5,6,7 to see if there was anything going on.

The group sizes were effectively the same for each 10 shot group.  Number 9 being wider was because I pulled one shot left.  Note it is the only one not in the main group.  I knew I had pulled it when I shot it.  Also in one of the three followup groups with 1 ring was to verify that it returned to the original baseline.  By the way they look a little weird on the target as I didn't wanted to keep the data on the same target so I turned to target over and used the numbers as aiming points again.  As you mentioned the positioning of the group is not really relevant as taking it apart, changing rings and re-setting the tuner certainly would have impact on the POI.  I was not concerned about that just noting that it happened.  Returning the tuner to the same arrangement in future groups as I plan to do is just minimizing another variable. 

As for shooting 5 or 10 shot groups, 5 may be more indicative of performance while 10 is more indicative of pellet variability and my ability to remain focused.  I also mentioned that the target may be swaying a bit from left to right and increasing the width of the groups relative to their height.  Air flow in the range is designed for powder arms, not air guns.  I try to get there when no one else is on the range but can't that at all times.    I saw several groups as they developed that were quite small with 3-5 pellets that opened up a bit when 10 were shot. 

My interpretation of group size was that my range is too short to effectively demonstrate the  harmonic tuner's effects.  That's why I am going to redo the experiment at 30yds and continue from there.  I am, in oil-field terms, WOW (waiting on weather) to improve so I can shoot out the kitchen window without raindrops....

I didn't see the JIP designation anywhere in my notes or in the string??? Am I going more blind??  If it is mine, it could be a typo or the spellchecker effects?  I did see elsewhere that some people refer the tuner JOHN IN PA as JIPA but that doesn't seem relevant????

 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 02:20:11 PM by dtdtdtdt »
  • Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Dave Thomas

5.0mm CCA/Diana54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO, 17.5fpe
4.5mm/RWS54, Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42AO 17.15fpe
4.5mm FWB300SU/Clearidge Ultra RM 3-9x32, 5.1fpe

Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2020, 03:36:35 PM »

What a JIP .......... ::)

Sorry, Non-native English speaker here, exactly what is JIP?

Apologies, but searches in Google lead to various possibilities.

TIA and TLA's rule!

;-)

HM

Sorry Hector,
My bad English :P.
Even though the past tense is spelled Jipped, the present tense is spelled gyp? 
Go figure, but I guess I should have looked it up first before using :(.

Anyway, I was suggesting, having something tested using a process that results in nothing conclusive.

- Like testing water volume using a sieve; one can conclude nothing from the results.
aka - A pointless endeavor.


However, I would love to understand more about their effectiveness; also where such a device can be purchased ;).
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
AR2079A-HPA (.177)
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
BSA R10 (.177) Huma Regulated
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT RED - (.25)
QB78 (.177) OEM

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E - Silver (.177)
HW50S (.177)
HW50S - Silver (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (HW98 stock) (.177)

Offline Robert 5mm

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2020, 03:50:02 PM »
I should have said - I did not test it because my results would have been inconclusive since I could not shoot accurately enough to provide any useful data.
  • Raleigh, Illinois
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2020, 04:16:54 PM »
I should have said - I did not test it because my results would have been inconclusive since I could not shoot accurately enough to provide any useful data.

Sorry Robert,
Didn't mean to hammer you :(.
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
AR2079A-HPA (.177)
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
BSA R10 (.177) Huma Regulated
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT RED - (.25)
QB78 (.177) OEM

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E - Silver (.177)
HW50S (.177)
HW50S - Silver (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (HW98 stock) (.177)

Offline Yogi

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 05:34:05 PM »

What a JIP .......... ::)

Sorry, Non-native English speaker here, exactly what is JIP?

Apologies, but searches in Google lead to various possibilities.

TIA and TLA's rule!

;-)
HM

You of all people use more acronyms and abbreviations that anybody I know, except my alma matter... ;)

-Y
  • San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 6G, .177
RWS LP8 Magnum, .177
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22

Offline Novagun

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2020, 12:46:12 AM »
Interesting Topic. I have played with muzzle weights and Brakes for a while.
I have one rifle, a Webley and Scott with a long and probably flexible barrel. Without anything on the end it shoots very very poorly. With 150 grams of steel brake screwed on it shoots very well.

I also have a Diana 34 short barrel that came with a very heavy steel brake held by grub screws. What a disaster. The first and considerable improvement was to get rid of the brake. The brake and the grub screw attachment were unsatisfactory.
Other rifles I have I experimented with brakes. Trying different sizes and weights Sometimes I think they are beneficial and sometimes I think they are not. I think the skill of the shooter, modest in my case, has a bigger influence on accuracy.

I await developments in this thread to add something more than amateur trial and error to my efforts.

PS. I recall that at one of the recent Field Target championships in Germany I think. Hector will know about it. Anyway the springer title was won by a chap shooting a Prosport. He had adjustable weights along the length of the barrel. I can't recall if he had anything on the muzzle. Hector may be able to comment on that.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 12:51:54 AM by Novagun »
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Offline HectorMedina

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2020, 01:13:33 AM »
@ Dave. -
One of the things I forgot to mention is that HPM's work best when the gun is rested at the far end of the forend (from the shooter's perspective). If you are not resting it at the far end, but somewhere more closer to the middle, results are not as they should be.

@ Hugh.- You are right, Linas Burvis (Lithuania) is one of the great shooters of modern times. He did use a Pro-Sport in Germany (2013), but the more important part is that he removed completely the short barrel/shroud arrangement and replaced it with a solid, and rather long, barrel. So the weights were actually mounted ON the barrel, not on a shroud. Contrary to predictions, his solution worked VERY WELL. He got more than 10 points on the 3rd place. Brian Samson was real close to Linas on that occasion.
BTW, he has a really gruff "façade", but he is a really nice guy. His wife, Regina Burviene is also a champion shooter, usually placing top 3 in the Women's and often Top 10 in the general springers.

Thanks for bringing back the memories:  https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-worlds-2013-a-beautiful-experience

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM
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Offline Yogi

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 08:15:45 AM »
Hector,

Would just plain o-rings be of any help in reducing "harmonic distortion"-maybe not the right term, but I like the sound of it. ;D

Or do the o-rings need to to be in contact with something to reduce vibration?

-Y
  • San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 6G, .177
RWS LP8 Magnum, .177
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22

Offline HectorMedina

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Re: Harmonic Tuner and Diana High Performance Muzzle Weight
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2020, 03:38:34 PM »
Hector,

Would just plain o-rings be of any help in reducing "harmonic distortion"-maybe not the right term, but I like the sound of it. ;D

Or do the o-rings need to to be in contact with something to reduce vibration?

-Y

ANY mass will alter the vibration patterns of a barrel. Even the weight of an ORing. You CAN get rather thick ORings, and so, it is possible to tune a barrel like this.

Now, the REAL question is "How long will those ORings stay in their place?" simply putting the gun away may move them, and then you are back to square 1.

HTH



HM
  • USA, Maryland, Darnestown