GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => 100 Yard Match => Topic started by: rsterne on September 17, 2021, 03:02:31 PM
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Since a lot of guys are getting close to shooting a 50 - 5X, I was wondering if you wanted to make the scoring more difficult?.... The target shown below is the official NUAH target, but with a smaller X-ring added.... The old "X" ring becomes the 10 (1 MOA), there is a new 1/2" diameter "X" ring, and the scores for the other rings are shown on the target, they all drop by 1 point.... As before, any shot touching the line would score the lower score, to even out the calibers as much as possible....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Medium_NUAH_Target_White.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/791fd6b2-b5b5-4971-a7fd-0822fc3514da/p/98ae1226-4dbc-4d58-b3a7-ce691e121f71)
Since all the rings, when printed from a .pdf file (which I can supply, it is NOT the one above) would be the same size as what we have now, we would still have the 1, 2, 3 and 4 MOA rings available so that a target could be used to qualify for Membership in NUAH or an upgrade, if the other requirements are met.... I can fill in the 10 ring with colour if you wish, or you can just colour it with a transparent marker, colour of your choice....
So, what do you think?.... Personally, I am voting to keep the original scoring system, but I don't shoot as much, or as well, as most of the regulars, so let's hear your opinion.... No guarantee we would change, but we won't know what the shooters want unless we ask.... ???
Bob
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That's a tough call. I can't remember the ring sizes for RMAC and EBR, or even if they are the same size? I guess it would be nice to match our NUAH to their size and scoring method?
I don't see how scoring the lower score evens out the higher calibers, because there are lots of .22 cal shooters kickin' my .30 cal's butt here lately? LOL
Then there's that part of me that hates change........unless it's for the purpose of simplifying something. Which brings me back to my first statement as to how it would match up with the matches like EBR and RMAC.
I'll have to look at other folks ideas on this and "circle back" to ya! LOL
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Jimmy, I actually changed the target image above, the outer rings are more like what we have now, no sense in having even lower scores because nobody shoots there anyways.... We did a lot of comparisions with other targets when we started NUAH, and I don't want to see the basic target changed either.... I sure can't consistently shoot a 50 as it is, let alone a 5X.... but I wanted to hear from those guys who can about whether they want to make it even harder?....
We spent a lot of time discussing how to make it more fair between larger and smaller calibers, and we came up with scoring to the lower value as the best compromise.... I'm betting that if the guys shooting .22 and .25 now were shooting .30 or .35, they would score even better if we changed to using the higher value instead of the lower.... With a 1/2 MOA "X"-ring I'm betting nobody is going to get a 5X, all 5 shots inside it without touching it.... ::) .... Maybe that makes it too hard?....
Bob
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Bob, if I'm looking at your new target correctly, scoring a 50/50 on your target would be as hard as scoring a 5x on the old target?
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You are correct, 50/50 would be as hard as a 5X on the old target.... and almost exactly the same as scoring 50/50 on a EBR with "bump up" scoring and a .25 cal.... However, getting an "X" on the above target would be more difficult than at EBR.... :o
For reference, here are the EBR target sizes.... used both at 75 and 100 yards....
X = 0.200" (0.70") [.50"]
10 = 0.475" (0.975") [1.00"]
9 = 1.250" (1.750") [2.00"]
8 = 2.000" (2.500") [3.00"]
7 = 2.800" (3.300") [4.00"]
6 = 3.580" (4.080") [6.00"]
5 = 4.360" (4.860") [8.00"]
4 = 5.125" (5.625")
However, add to those twice the caliber, and you will get a proper comparison to what we use.... Numbers added in red above for .25 cal.... I have added the sizes for the above target in blue....
Bob
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Why not replicate the targets used at RMAC / EBR and fit them on an 8 1/2x11 page? Would be more like the "real" competitions. As far as I'm concerned (and so far I'm the guy in last place) if my shots aren't inside the 4 they don't count and I may as well shoot a new card.
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If we do that, then the targets cannot be used for NUAH membership.... I would be 100% opposed to doing that, but I'm only one voice....
EBR only shoot 1 shot at each target.... This is to avoid the inevitable arguments about how many shots went though one hole.... When you make the challenge, and the target, so difficult that becomes an issue, that is realistically the only solution.... It also severely limits the number of competitors, because most of us "mere mortals" are nowhere near good enough.... NUAH was supposed to offer enough of a challenge to be interesting, without competing directly with EBR.... Perhaps we should leave things exactly the way they are, it was not my intention to kick open a Hornet's nest and destroy what we have now....
If guys want more of a challenge, they can always shoot further out.... NUAH targets are designed for that, to be scaled for distance.... If guys want to practice for the EBR, there is nothing preventing them from buying or making targets and practicing to their heart's content.... JMO....
Bob
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Also , doesn't EBR use a 0.35" scoring plug on their targets? I'm getting a little confused now.
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I was not aware of that, but if that is the case, the add 0.20" to all of the above numbers in red (which are group ODs).... For example, a shot plugged at 0.35" that just touched the outside of the EBR 10 ring (0.475") would just touch the inside of a 1.175" diameter circle.... Our current "X"-ring (which is the 10 ring above) is 1" diameter, so using the lower scoring we do now, the above target would be more difficult....
Bob
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Yes, gets a little confusing RMAC .30, EBR.35 scoring plugs used ....same size targets though. You would think RMAC would move up to the .35 plug with the new .35 Impact M3 that just came out?
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They probably will.... NUAH could do the same, if we wished.... but it would require everyone to purchase a .35" scoring plug for their caliber.... My understanding is that a scoring plug for a .22 cal has a smaller shank than for a .35 cal, just the scoring "shoulders" are the same.... They don't want shooters enlarging the hole with an oversize shank.... That means a different scoring plug for every caliber, which likely means custom made, I have never seen them commercially.... Also, you can't use a scoring plug with more than 1 hole per target.... ::)
IMO it's a LOT easier to score "down" and have bigger rings on the target, like we do now.... The smaller calibers have more wind drift, so are more difficult, in general, to shoot as well.... That makes up for the fact they punch a smaller hole, so fit easier inside the scoring ring.... This was debated at great length when NUAH was started.... To qualify for Membership, however, we used the more lenient "touch and you're in" rule, because there is ALSO a C-T-C group size minimum for each Division....
Bob
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Bob
Yes sir, looks like you guys put quite a lot of thought into the original NUAH target. So, I'm good with it as it is.
I think there's only one person who has ever got a 5X and that a few years back. If it starts happening on a regular basis then maybe we should look into a new target?
As for the 0.35 scoring plugs, I have them all from .177 to .30 shank. I got them from Mike Niksch for shooting in his Nat50 contests. I'm sure you could contact him and get a set.
I'm gonna put my vote down for leave as is, but I have flat learned a lot from the discussion. Appreciate all the thought that went into this.
Fuss
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Thanks, Jimmy.... We tried really hard to do our homework when we set up NUAH and agreed on the targets.... and the requirements for Membership and the different Divisions.... I am a bit surprised that very few shoot at 150-200 yards, and nobody so far has qualified at 300, even as a Member!.... The idea was to offer a challenge for everyone, but not make it so difficult that we only ended up with a handful of members.... We now have over 100, so I think we got it right!....
The matches actually came along a bit later.... It would be nice to see them get more popular.... I think enough guys shoot, they just don't bother posting if they can't beat or come close to what is already posted.... It's a shame, really, as mostly you are trying to improve, using the equipment and skills you have.... 8)
I just don't have enough time, unfortunately.... even though I am retired.... ::)
Bob
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Thanks, Jimmy.... We tried really hard to do our homework when we set up NUAH and agreed on the targets.... and the requirements for Membership and the different Divisions.... I am a bit surprised that very few shoot at 150-200 yards, and nobody so far has qualified at 300, even as a Member!.... The idea was to offer a challenge for everyone, but not make it so difficult that we only ended up with a handful of members.... We now have over 100, so I think we got it right!....
The matches actually came along a bit later.... It would be nice to see them get more popular.... I think enough guys shoot, they just don't bother posting if they can't beat or come close to what is already posted.... It's a shame, really, as mostly you are trying to improve, using the equipment and skills you have.... 8)
I just voted to leave ‘ as is. ‘
My rationale is that I think we might discourage new shooters from trying their luck. Honestly, it’s difficult for many folks to have access to even 100 yards and thinking about 200 yards or further with an air rifle, is almost unimaginable to a vast majority of BR Airgun shooters.
The new target would be humbling!!
Tom
I just don't have enough time, unfortunately.... even though I am retired.... ::)
Bob
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It would indeed be humbling.... Personally, I am glad to see most (so far) want to stay with the existing target.... 8)
Bob
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Wait…..What???? There is a NUAH membership and divisions? I thought this was just a fun shoot amongst friends n such. So now that I am more cornfussed, what now?
I like the old target. If I ever get good enough to ring the x 5 times pretty consistently still no. New shooters would just take a pass.
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Wait…..What???? There is a NUAH membership and divisions? I thought this was just a fun shoot amongst friends n such. So now that I am more cornfussed, what now?
I like the old target. If I ever get good enough to ring the x 5 times pretty consistently still no. New shooters would just take a pass.
Carl, I'm sorry no one brought that to your attention. Your match submission can enter you in the Long Range NUAH Membership group list. It looks like your entry for this match qualifies you as "Sharpshooter"
Here's the rules https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=100865.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=100865.0)
And here's the membership list. You can upgrade to "Expert" and /or Master as your group improves. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=119449.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=119449.0)
Hope this helps and maybe someone such as Bob will chime in for better clarity
Fuss
Oh, and post your submission for it here https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=205.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=205.0)
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Looks like I will need to see if I can find that target again. I have to lay a ruler across it for verification I think.
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Looks like I will need to see if I can find that target again. I have to lay a ruler across it for verification I think.
Yeah buddy, you'll be in there then!
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Bob
Yes sir, looks like you guys put quite a lot of thought into the original NUAH target. So, I'm good with it as it is.
I think there's only one person who has ever got a 5X and that a few years back. If it starts happening on a regular basis then maybe we should look into a new target?
As for the 0.35 scoring plugs, I have them all from .177 to .30 shank. I got them from Mike Niksch for shooting in his Nat50 contests. I'm sure you could contact him and get a set.
I'm gonna put my vote down for leave as is, but I have flat learned a lot from the discussion. Appreciate all the thought that went into this.
Fuss
Have to agree here.
I reread the entire thread a couple of times and the background for what went in to creating the NUAH matches is very interesting. I like that EBR targets were also discussed when developing the NUAH matches.
Bob - I didn’t realize initially ( I was speed reading ) that the proposed new target ( via the new poll) would require 5 shots in a 1” MOA bull to achieve a 50/ 50 score vs. the current NUAH target which allows for a 2” ten ring for that same 50/50 score. Even more challenging is visualizing shooting 5 shots in a new 1/2” ‘X’ ring, or half MOA; which essentially is a ragged hole at 100 yards! All with an ‘air rifle’ and shooting in some level of wind! It’s hard to imagine shooting a 5X card with a half inch X ring given how difficult it is to do that now. Hence, your poll.
I’m glad you proposed the idea to make us appreciate what we already have currently.
Tom
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You're welcome, Tom.... I agree 100%, trying to shoot a ragged 5-shot hole at 100 yards with an airgun is asking a bit much, I think.... As I said, I'm quite happy with our current target, I just wanted everyone to think about it....
To shoot a 5X currently, with a .25 cal, you have to shoot 5 shots into 0.7 MOA or less.... That is less than the typical wind drift of a good pellet in a 1 MPH crosswind at 100 yards.... :o
Bob
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I may need to get in on this before it gets more difficult!
I think that I can get 4 MOA but ½ seems out of the realm of possibility 🤔.
🎯
Hunter
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I may need to get in on this before it gets more difficult!
I think that I can get 4 MOA but ½ seems out of the realm of possibility 🤔.
🎯
Hunter
I'm sure with the right pellet or slug, that .25 Condor can do it! Bring it on.
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I may need to get in on this before it gets more difficult!
I think that I can get 4 MOA but ½ seems out of the realm of possibility 🤔.
🎯
Hunter
I'm sure with the right pellet or slug, that .25 Condor can do it! Bring it on.
Yeah, the Condor would be the better choice. I had been using it with a cheap red dot, it's light so it was a good hunting rig. Just by chance I put a scope on it. I was shooting at a white spot on a tree across the pond when I noticed that most shots were within about 2 inches. I wasn't really concentrating all that much. I lazered that dead tree, it was 93 yards. Now when I read this I'm thinking that it just may be possible. I never even considered it before last week.
I've already moved that scope to another rifle, so back it goes. Now to print those targets.
Hunter
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Yeah, the Condor would be the better choice. I had been using it with a cheap red dot, it's light so it was a good hunting rig. Just by chance I put a scope on it. I was shooting at a white spot on a tree across the pond when I noticed that most shots were within about 2 inches. I wasn't really concentrating all that much. I lazered that dead tree, it was 93 yards. Now when I read this I'm thinking that it just may be possible. I never even considered it before last week.
I've already moved that scope to another rifle, so back it goes. Now to print those targets.
Hunter
I usually set my scope on 30 power so I can see the pellet holes as I shoot them. Gets a little harder with my BSA scopes on 24 power as I have poor vision.
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I like the NUAH target(s). The (s) would be my caveat since there are several targets that fit the NUAH rules. If I were a shooter here, I would actually prefer the targets I prefer to shoot at 100 yards. Just sayin' ;D
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Interesting idea but I voted to keep the current target. We have such few competitors as it is and making it more difficult to get a 50/50 may discourage people from joining. Yes, there are several shooters that are getting 50/50 regularly but not that many getting 5X. Until we get more competitors shooting 5X's regularly, I think it is a little premature to make it harder. I really want to see more shooters entering their targets and not just a few regulars (and semi-regulars like myself). It seems like all the GTA matches are losing people left and right and it saddens me. I enjoy competing against others, not so much to try to win every match but to see how others are doing, what they are shooting, (and the humorous exchanges and comments).
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I forgot to add that if truth be told, my opinion is probably a little selfish too. I haven't shot a 50/50 5X yet and I'm pretty sure I won't even get close with the smaller target. :P
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I forgot to add that if truth be told, my opinion is probably a little selfish too. I haven't shot a 50/50 5X yet and I'm pretty sure I won't even get close with the smaller target. :P
Ditto Mike, me too!
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Voting is closed for this poll, and two-thirds of those responding want to keep the status-quo.... I see no reason to make the challenge any more difficult, so we will be staying with the current target and scoring system....
Bob
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Bob,
As I mentioned in another thread, late to the game, not been shooting much this year.
Just a suggestion, rather then change the target, what about a forced position?
As I mentioned before, what about sling supported, glove, shooting mat, prone?
Shooting jacket optional.
Perhaps its own division.
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Neat idea, but the rules might be a bit complicated, and I'm not so sure the support would be there.... However, if somebody who is interested in seeing different positions, or even a 3-position, wants to have a Match, they could simply post one and see if anybody bites!.... I once shot in and won a 100 yd. "turkey shoot" with my .222 Remington, two shots from the bench and one standing and scored a "29".... I think the 10 was 2" (like NUAH) but the 9 was 4" (like our 8-ring).... the typical sighting targets used at rifle ranges before the "diamond" shaped targets became popular.... I did a lot of 3-position (prone, kneeling, standing) .22LR indoor when I was younger, got my "Silver Shield" doing that (45 years ago).... My knees are not up to it now.... ::)
Bob
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Neat idea, but the rules might be a bit complicated, and I'm not so sure the support would be there.... However, if somebody who is interested in seeing different positions, or even a 3-position, wants to have a Match, they could simply post one and see if anybody bites!.... I once shot in and won a 100 yd. "turkey shoot" with my .222 Remington, two shots from the bench and one standing and scored a "29".... I think the 10 was 2" (like NUAH) but the 9 was 4" (like our 8-ring).... the typical sighting targets used at rifle ranges before the "diamond" shaped targets became popular.... I did a lot of 3-position (prone, kneeling, standing) .22LR indoor when I was younger, got my "Silver Shield" doing that (45 years ago).... My knees are not up to it now.... ::)
Bob
I was thinking of a scaled version of NRA High Power.
Yeah, not sure many would "bite."
Someone did post NRA High Power targets scaled to 50yrds for .22.
I have them on the hard drive somewhere . . .