GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: ray1377 on June 01, 2018, 06:37:49 PM
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Or just order the regular 16+ft/lb version and put in a Vortex or ARH 12 ft/lb kit?
I want a 12 ft/lb .177 and was curious if the factory 12 ft/lb model from Krale would be a good choice or should I install an aftermarket kit??
Thanks
Ray
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Several of us in the DFW FT community have purchased 12fpe 97s from Krale and others in the last couple of years. Experienced tuners have opened them up and found them to be pretty darned good straight out of the box (with the usual break-in). Not overlubricated, well-fitting spring guides, clean compression tubes, good fitting seals.
If you are bound and determined to tune it out of the box, then I guess it doesn't matter. But, you might be surprised how good the 12fpe version is right out of the box. I know no one (personally) and of hardly anyone that actually shoots one over 12fpe, so I can't speak to the hotter ones out of the box.
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If you want 12fpe in the end then there is no downside IMHO to ordering a 12fpe gun from the beginning. If you are not happy then you can just go with an ARH or Vortek kit.
I tuned mine down to 12fpe and would have been better off ordering a 12fpe gun from the factory since I never shot it at factory power levels.
Good luck
R
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Might like the fullnpower model, mine shot great (minus the smoking).
Poped in vortek kit anyways and it's a sweet shooter at 15 fpe.
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I found my 97 to be the least hold sensitive and the most accurate at 11fpe. It was a sweet shooter at that power level. I would go for the 12fpe model.
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Whichever way you go Ray, good luck! I have a full power HW97K and I really do enjoy it. It’s a tank of an airgun but so satisfying to shoot. Mine likes the heavy offering from both JSB and AA the best but it shoots most of the better quality pellets decent.
What scope are you planning on mounting to it?
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Several of us in the DFW FT community have purchased 12fpe 97s from Krale and others in the last couple of years. Experienced tuners have opened them up and found them to be pretty darned good straight out of the box (with the usual break-in). Not overlubricated, well-fitting spring guides, clean compression tubes, good fitting seals.
If you are bound and determined to tune it out of the box, then I guess it doesn't matter. But, you might be surprised how good the 12fpe version is right out of the box. I know no one (personally) and of hardly anyone that actually shoots one over 12fpe, so I can't speak to the hotter ones out of the box.
As an American, of course I purchased a FAC HW97. I think it was about 15fpe out of the box. Tuned down to 12fpe it is a dream to shoot and a tack driver. Over 20 shots it is at about 11.8fpe 3.75fps Stddev, 17fps Spread and it happens to like JSB Exact 8.44s. If I had it to do again, I would probably tune my own, again. I really have learned a lot about spring/piston air guns working on my HW97 and my RWS 54. If you just want a great 12fpe rifle out of the box, you still can't go wrong with the HW97. Good luck and enjoy yourself.
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PA shipped me a 12 fpe kit rather than the sho kit. It does smooth things out nicely. But I'm still smarting from a 90$ mistake from them.
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Springs are easy to cut and refininish the end! U can take a full power spring and make it a 12 or 10fplb spring ::) :P
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Good Day Ray,
I also asked exactly the same question as you a few months ago wanting to get a Piston Springer Air Rifle to possibly shoot Hunter Field Target. I decided to order a 12fpe Weihrauch HW97K from Krale. Placed order Monday 8pm EST and it was at my door by Thursday. I'm extremely happy with it; I'm still shocked at how accurate and nice it is to shoot.
Rick
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bReTt, thinking about putting my Hawke Vantage on it.
ridesafer, glad to hear you got a nice gun in a very timely fashion.
I guess my next question is, which stock do you fellows like the best?
I'm leaning toward the HW synthetic thumbhole version, but the walnut version with the swoopy pistolgrip looks nice also.
What do you fellows think?
Thanks
Ray
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bReTt, thinking about putting my Hawke Vantage on it.
ridesafer, glad to hear you got a nice gun in a very timely fashion.
I guess my next question is, which stock do you fellows like the best?
I'm leaning toward the HW synthetic thumbhole version, but the walnut version with the swoopy pistolgrip looks nice also.
What do you fellows think?
Thanks
Ray
I very do much not like the synthetic stock. The edges are sharp and even after a tune makes it hard on the ear.
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Thanks for the tip Sky, I've heard that wood stocks are heavier than synthetic. But when it comes to springers I've read that weight helps tame recoil.
I also downloaded the HW 97 manual. And came across this :
" In extreme cold first warm the gun up to room temperature before using it."
Is there gonna be a problem shooting a HW97 during the colder winter months?
I use my trusty old Crosman Storm XT for squirrel hunting in the late fall and winter months.
Never had a minutes problem out of it.
Any of you fellows shoot out in the cold during the winter months?
I've never read that about any other springers.
You fellows have any input on that?
Thanks
Ray
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Thanks for the tip Sky, I've heard that wood stocks are heavier than synthetic. But when it comes to springers I've read that weight helps tame recoil.
I also downloaded the HW 97 manual. And came across this :
" In extreme cold first warm the gun up to room temperature before using it."
Is there gonna be a problem shooting a HW97 during the colder winter months?
I use my trusty old Crosman Storm XT for squirrel hunting in the late fall and winter months.
Never had a minutes problem out of it.
Any of you fellows shoot out in the cold during the winter months?
I've never read that about any other springers.
You fellows have any input on that?
Thanks
Ray
Thanks for the tip Sky, I've heard that wood stocks are heavier than synthetic. But when it comes to springers I've read that weight helps tame recoil.
I also downloaded the HW 97 manual. And came across this :
" In extreme cold first warm the gun up to room temperature before using it."
Is there gonna be a problem shooting a HW97 during the colder winter months?
I use my trusty old Crosman Storm XT for squirrel hunting in the late fall and winter months.
Never had a minutes problem out of it.
Any of you fellows shoot out in the cold during the winter months?
I've never read that about any other springers.
You fellows have any input on that?
Thanks
Ray
I have hunted many times in sub freezing temps with zero trouble. Springers shoot a bit faster in cold temps so your POI might change slightly.
R
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bReTt, thinking about putting my Hawke Vantage on it.
ridesafer, glad to hear you got a nice gun in a very timely fashion.
I guess my next question is, which stock do you fellows like the best?
I'm leaning toward the HW synthetic thumbhole version, but the walnut version with the swoopy pistolgrip looks nice also.
What do you fellows think?
Thanks
Ray
I am owning the synthetic thumbhole version and I love it ! Very nice hold. I have owned a HW97k with the standard beech stock as well, but I prefer this one way more, regardless of my shooting position.
Though you can't twist about taste and wood is often more nice regarding the looks, I must say the synthetic version delivers a fully black airrifle and looks cool too. A synthetic stock is also very practical and this one is rock solid, no cheap flimsy feeling at all ! I do not recognize any sharp edges and bear in mind this is NOT a hollow stock.
Btw. I have topped my with a Hawke Vantage 3-9x40AO IR MD scope on medium Sportsmatch mounts. On the HW97k, a perfect combination for me and enough magnification for 50yrds inside shooting and up to 70yrds outside.
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I guess my next question is, which stock do you fellows like the best?
I'm leaning toward the HW synthetic thumbhole version, but the walnut version with the swoopy pistolgrip looks nice also.
What do you fellows think?
Thanks
Ray
If I had my top choice I would like the wood thumb hole stock. Mine is the “standard” wood stock. I prefer wood over synthetic. That’s just me.
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When I bought my .22 from John in Pa, it had the SHO kit in it. Harder to cock, but sure hit with authority when it got there! It presently has the ARH variable power kit in it shooting 12/13ft lbs. Much easier to cock, all day plinker. My Beauty Queen 8)
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The synthetic stock on the 97k is light in the @@@. The butt is hollow so I added several ounces of lead which helped my accuracy. The sharp edges on the cocking lever slot and near the trigger guard were taken care of by my putting on a slight radius, using a dremel tool. Sandpaper would do the trick also. The synthetic stock is very durable.
The regular wood stock is great also but I would like to try their KT, thumbhole stock. The KT is German Beech and walnut is not an option at this time.
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When I bought my .22 from John in Pa, it had the SHO kit in it. Harder to cock, but sure hit with authority when it got there! It presently has the ARH variable power kit in it shooting 12/13ft lbs. Much easier to cock, all day plinker. My Beauty Queen 8)
Sweet! :-*
What butt pad is that? Looks very adjustable.
-Y
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bReTt, thinking about putting my Hawke Vantage on it.
ridesafer, glad to hear you got a nice gun in a very timely fashion.
I guess my next question is, which stock do you fellows like the best?
I'm leaning toward the HW synthetic thumbhole version, but the walnut version with the swoopy pistolgrip looks nice also.
What do you fellows think?
Thanks
Ray
I am owning the synthetic thumbhole version and I love it ! Very nice hold. I have owned a HW97k with the standard beech stock as well, but I prefer this one way more, regardless of my shooting position.
Though you can't twist about taste and wood is often more nice regarding the looks, I must say the synthetic version delivers a fully black airrifle and looks cool too. A synthetic stock is also very practical and this one is rock solid, no cheap flimsy feeling at all ! I do not recognize any sharp edges and bear in mind this is NOT a hollow stock.
Btw. I have topped my with a Hawke Vantage 3-9x40AO IR MD scope on medium Sportsmatch mounts. On the HW97k, a perfect combination for me and enough magnification for 50yrds inside shooting and up to 70yrds outside.
Sound good rudeboy.
I guess the best thing about the HW97 is that you have to look really hard to find someone disliking or trash talking one.
Seems like all those who have owned one really love them.
That's a plus in my book, and speaks volumes about the HW brand.
Thanks
Ray
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I'd buy the full power version if that's what you want. They're really nice at 12fpe but they don't not so good at full power either. This is one springer you should be able to shoot at full power with no issues at all. Weihrauch know how to do this one right.
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Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
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Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
If I’d had your “experience” with that end cap, I’d probably feel the same way. As it is I like everything about the rifle.
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Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
If I’d had your “experience” with that end cap, I’d probably feel the same way. As it is I like everything about the rifle.
My hand aside, just way easier pressing guns with pins (FAC at least). With the setups they use in the UK it's looks like a breeze though. Guys taking them down on their laps lol.
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Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
If I’d had your “experience” with that end cap, I’d probably feel the same way. As it is I like everything about the rifle.
My hand aside, just way easier pressing guns with pins (FAC at least). With the setups they use in the UK it's looks like a breeze though. Guys taking them down on their laps lol.
Well actually, watching alot of videos of those fellows across the pond hunting with their 12 ft/lb airguns got me really looking harder at them.
Shots out to past 50 yards are made with relative ease. I've been bunny hunting for the past 3 years with two different 12 ft/lb airguns.
One of them is my de-tuned Crosman Storm XT in .177. The other is a modified 2240 thats running off a regulated .13cu.in. bottle with a .177 discovery barrel.
But I just can't shake the itch I have to want to own a fine German under-lever spring rifle.
There has been way more stuff I've read about them shooting better at 12 ft/lb or less, than it has been shooting full power.
Thanks
Ray
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Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
If I’d had your “experience” with that end cap, I’d probably feel the same way. As it is I like everything about the rifle.
My hand aside, just way easier pressing guns with pins (FAC at least). With the setups they use in the UK it's looks like a breeze though. Guys taking them down on their laps lol.
Well actually, watching alot of videos of those fellows across the pond hunting with their 12 ft/lb airguns got me really looking harder at them.
Shots out to past 50 yards are made with relative ease. I've been bunny hunting for the past 3 years with two different 12 ft/lb airguns.
One of them is my de-tuned Crosman Storm XT in .177. The other is a modified 2240 thats running off a regulated .13cu.in. bottle with a .177 discovery barrel.
But I just can't shake the itch I have to want to own a fine German under-lever spring rifle.
There has been way more stuff I've read about them shooting better at 12 ft/lb or less, than it has been shooting full power.
Thanks
Ray
I know your thinking about the HW97K. 12 fpe tunes in these guns is great. Mine is full power but I have the internals to swap to detuned should I desire. I have a 12 fpe HW77K and 2 HW95s at the same power. They are easier to cock and shoot accurately. You aren’t giving anything up be moving down to the lower power level. You are actually gaining a better shooting experience and more enjoyable rifle. Don’t be afraid of the lower fps. Once you go there you won’t miss it. 12 fpe in .177 still packs a wallop.
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I'll find out eventually. Want to grab gun for field target and that will be 12 fpe. Either another 97k or a tx 200. Not sure yet :/
Either way it will have a vortek or arh kit in it. Kind of wish they pinned the endcap on them instead of the screw on cap. Really the only thing I don't like about the gun. Makes working on them a little annoying. Minus that awesome shooter.
If I’d had your “experience” with that end cap, I’d probably feel the same way. As it is I like everything about the rifle.
My hand aside, just way easier pressing guns with pins (FAC at least). With the setups they use in the UK it's looks like a breeze though. Guys taking them down on their laps lol.
Well actually, watching alot of videos of those fellows across the pond hunting with their 12 ft/lb airguns got me really looking harder at them.
Shots out to past 50 yards are made with relative ease. I've been bunny hunting for the past 3 years with two different 12 ft/lb airguns.
One of them is my de-tuned Crosman Storm XT in .177. The other is a modified 2240 thats running off a regulated .13cu.in. bottle with a .177 discovery barrel.
But I just can't shake the itch I have to want to own a fine German under-lever spring rifle.
There has been way more stuff I've read about them shooting better at 12 ft/lb or less, than it has been shooting full power.
Thanks
Ray
You will like it, quickly became my favorite gun, loved it out of the box but with the vortek kit its even better.
Next gun I get will be a 12 fpe for field target. My vortek is adjustable but I'm so sick of taking it apart it will stay at full power for awhile lol. But honestly it groups great at 50 yds with exact 8.4 gr 4.52 head size.
Either way you can change the power anytime you want. I'm sure you will be happy at 12 fpe.
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I thought I would be disappointed with a 12 FPE gun, turns out I think I want to stay with 12 FPE for my .177 spring guns. For a .22 I think 700 FPS with a 16 grain pellet. I could be wrong as SWMBO says I always am.
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as SWMBO says I always am.
Booger-Rumpole of the Bailey is my reference, what is yours?
-Y
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So tell me fellows.
Is Krale gonna be my best best for a HW97?
As far as price?
And I been meaning to ask, Is there a noticeable difference in a 97K or a plain 97?
I've always heard the "K" meant carbine, so I'm assuming it has a shorter barrel?
It would seem that at 12 ft/lb a shorter barrel would mean shorter time for the pellet to be in the barrel during the shot cycle.
Just curious.
THanks
Ray
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as SWMBO says I always am.
Booger-Rumpole of the Bailey is my reference, what is yours?
-Y
She Who Must Be Obeyed
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So tell me fellows.
Is Krale gonna be my best best for a HW97?
As far as price?
And I been meaning to ask, Is there a noticeable difference in a 97K or a plain 97?
I've always heard the "K" meant carbine, so I'm assuming it has a shorter barrel?
It would seem that at 12 ft/lb a shorter barrel would mean shorter time for the pellet to be in the barrel during the shot cycle.
Just curious.
THanks
Ray
Krale for new, buy used here and get a much better deal. It also might be tuned, so you can shoot and go. ;D
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as SWMBO says I always am.
Booger-Rumpole of the Bailey is my reference, what is yours?
-Y
She Who Must Be Obeyed
Well duh! ;D
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So tell me fellows.
Is Krale gonna be my best best for a HW97?
As far as price?
And I been meaning to ask, Is there a noticeable difference in a 97K or a plain 97?
I've always heard the "K" meant carbine, so I'm assuming it has a shorter barrel?
It would seem that at 12 ft/lb a shorter barrel would mean shorter time for the pellet to be in the barrel during the shot cycle.
Just curious.
THanks
Ray
Yes, it will run you about $414 to your door. K stands for "kurz" meaning short in German. There's no such thing as a "long" 97, they all have 300 mm barrels. There is a regular or long 77, though, with a 100mm difference in barrel length, 470 vs. 370. In comparing 97s and 77s, no one hardly ever seems to notice a difference in shooting characteristics, just the stock (always comparing K models, though).
I waited several months checking used adds for 97 and 77s and didn't find one as cheap as Krale, new. But that was a couple of years ago. The downward price pressure from Krale on US vendors and the used market may make it more likely that you find a used one under $400. PA still wants nearly $700 for one, while AoA is down to $500 from $600. Those prices have historically pumped up the used market.
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Sure there is such a thing like a long 97 version as well, else there wouldn't have to be a short version...
Have a look here:
https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/product_info.php/cPath/40_1678_942_944_950_2042/products_id/21420 (https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/product_info.php/cPath/40_1678_942_944_950_2042/products_id/21420)
They are only kind of rare and hard to get.
Personally I like to shoot my "full power" 97 and don't have a need for a 12fpe one, other than to have a 12fpe version for shooting HFT competition according to the UK rules.
I have shot a 12fpe 97 once and hardly noticed any difference in recoil and shooting behaviour, we are talking about a 2fpe difference anyway...
A 12fpe 97 is a bit overrated IMHO, it is a very accuracte springer anyway. But that is because of its compact size. I could imagine 12fpe would work better for a 95 or 85, who are longer and more hold sensitive.
Krale is the best, you surely can buy one there !
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I suppose that is true, regarding the "Lang." However, Weihrauch has not shown anything but a 300mm barrel K/kurz on their website in several years, at least three. Some of the thumbhole versions omit the K designation, but still have a 300mm barrel.
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https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/product_info.php/cPath/40_1678_942_944_950_2042/products_id/21420 (https://www.versandhaus-schneider.de/product_info.php/cPath/40_1678_942_944_950_2042/products_id/21420)
It says 385mm length barrel, but if you look at it, it may just be the muzzle brake?
-Y
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Interesting observation. The 77K and "L" have barrel lengths of 370 and 470mm, respectively, but the 77 has no "brake."
The 97K has a barrel length of 300mm (all according to Weihrauch site). On a 97K, unlike the "Lang" pictured, the cocking lever and bracket terminate near the end of the brake, whereas that shows it substantially aft of the end of the brake.
It appears that Weihrauch reports barrel length exclusive of the brake, if any, as they should, and 385mm makes "eyeball" sense there.
70mm is 2.75 inches. I am kind of surprised barrel length and any effects on accuracy or velocity between the 77K and 97K don't receive more discussion. You would think there's some field target or other wonk that insists that the 77K barreled action is better than the 97K for this reason, but I have never seen it discussed. You mostly see discussion of the older 77 with the smaller-diameter compression tube and the stocks.
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TwiceHorn,
I understand that the AA TX 200 has a 10.5" barrel.
-Y
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Longer barrels only slow down a pellet in a spring powered air rifle, longer barrels add weight and length to a spring gun! The only thing a longer barrel on a spring gun does is either aides as cocking leverage for a break barrel or a longer sight radius if using iron sights, spring piston air rifles only need 10" of barrel to reach maxium velocity!!! Longer barrels create drag on pellets, :P
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TwiceHorn,
I understand that the AA TX 200 has a 10.5" barrel.
-Y
From Pyramyd
The TX200HC has Barrel Length 9.53"
The standard TX200MkIII has Barrel Length 13.19"
I LOVE the short barrels on the TX, HW97k and Walther LGU which has 11.81" barrel
Tony Leach on the Facebook Lost Volume group thinks 14 to 16 inches is best for efficiency when tuning .22 caliber but I don't think my LGU with 11.8" could shoot any better in my hands.
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TwiceHorn,
I understand that the AA TX 200 has a 10.5" barrel.
-Y
From Pyramyd
The TX200HC has Barrel Length 9.53"
The standard TX200MkIII has Barrel Length 13.19"
I LOVE the short barrels on the TX, HW97k and Walther LGU which has 11.81" barrel
Tony Leach on the Facebook Lost Volume group thinks 14 to 16 inches is best for efficiency when tuning .22 caliber but I don't think my LGU with 11.8" could shoot any better in my hands.
Thanks for the correction. ;)
I was trying to make the point that longer barrels are not necessarily more accurate, particularly on fixed barrel springers. ::)
-Y
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Been there, done that :)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132425.msg1315142#msg1315142 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132425.msg1315142#msg1315142)
Thanks Ray
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Longer barrels only slow down a pellet in a spring powered air rifle, longer barrels add weight and length to a spring gun! The only thing a longer barrel on a spring gun does is either aides as cocking leverage for a break barrel or a longer sight radius if using iron sights, spring piston air rifles only need 10" of barrel to reach maxium velocity!!! Longer barrels create drag on pellets, :P
Oh, no doubt, but I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't come up, for better or worse, in discussions, with someone ascribing some mythic functionality or advantage (or lack thereof) to the longer or shorter barrel.
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Longer barrels only slow down a pellet in a spring powered air rifle, longer barrels add weight and length to a spring gun! The only thing a longer barrel on a spring gun does is either aides as cocking leverage for a break barrel or a longer sight radius if using iron sights, spring piston air rifles only need 10" of barrel to reach maxium velocity!!! Longer barrels create drag on pellets, :P
Oh, no doubt, but I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't come up, for better or worse, in discussions, with someone ascribing some mythic functionality or advantage (or lack thereof) to the longer or shorter barrel.
What he said :)
Ray
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my experience with chopping barrel has been nothing but positive, I either don't lose any velocity or gain velocity, for example my HW35 in.22cal before I chopped the barrel from its OEM length it shot the 16gn AA pellets at 595fps after chopping it to 12.25in same pellet is now shooting 605fps, IMO I think it has allot to with how tight the bore is and how tight the pellet fits the bore and the how soft the lead of the pellet is? but on the other hand same barrel chop on my Beeman R1.20cal lost some velocity from 825fps down to 785fps, that was from 16'' down to 12.25'' but I also changed out springs with a JM spring that doesn't have the proper spacing for that spring as it was designed in its kit forum from JM, I used the factory rear guide and a top hat that I had so its not really a fair evaluation of the power loss, just my thoughts on that! I have not any accuracy with the rifles favorite pellets either, just about every break barrel rifle I own has had the barrel chopped down to 10.5 or 12.25'' and have had no Ill effects from doing so, and almost all of these rifles are HW's so take it for what it worth, IMO it makes these guns easier to handle and more nimble, but I have also added cans on these rifles that put about 7.5'' in length back to the OAL of the rifle, but work for me ;) :P
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my experience with chopping barrel has been nothing but positive, I either don't lose any velocity or gain velocity, for example my HW35 in.22cal before I chopped the barrel from its OEM length it shot the 16gn AA pellets at 595fps after chopping it to 12.25in same pellet is now shooting 605fps, IMO I think it has allot to with how tight the bore is and how tight the pellet fits the bore and the how soft the lead of the pellet is? but on the other hand same barrel chop on my Beeman R1.20cal lost some velocity from 825fps down to 785fps, that was from 16'' down to 12.25'' but I also changed out springs with a JM spring that doesn't have the proper spacing for that spring as it was designed in its kit forum from JM, I used the factory rear guide and a top hat that I had so its not really a fair evaluation of the power loss, just my thoughts on that! I have not any accuracy with the rifles favorite pellets either, just about every break barrel rifle I own has had the barrel chopped down to 10.5 or 12.25'' and have had no Ill effects from doing so, and almost all of these rifles are HW's so take it for what it worth, IMO it makes these guns easier to handle and more nimble, but I have also added cans on these rifles that put about 7.5'' in length back to the OAL of the rifle, but work for me ;) :P
Screw on cans or push on cans? How do you attach them to shortened barrels?
Thanks,
Yogi