• Jefferson State Airrifles
  • Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
  • Hajimoto Productions
  • Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
  • Nielsen Specialty Ammo
  • Dynamic Air Rifles
  • FX Airguns
  • DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
  • Airgun Archery Fun
  • Pyramyd Air
  • Saber Tactical
  • New England Airgun
  • Umarex Airguns
  • Contact us
  • Utah Airguns
  • SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
  • Freedom Gun Targets
Jefferson State Airrifles
Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
Hajimoto Productions
Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
Nielsen Specialty Ammo
Dynamic Air Rifles
FX Airguns
DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
Airgun Archery Fun
Pyramyd Air
Saber Tactical
New England Airgun
Umarex Airguns
Contact us
Utah Airguns
SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
Freedom Gun Targets


Author Topic: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting  (Read 922 times))

Offline mwgm2020

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • yes
  • Real Name: Stephen
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2021, 05:48:33 PM »
What is an acceptable entry-level pistol to try out competition target shooting.  Should it be CO2 or would a pump gun like a Crosman American classic model 1377 work, or even a Beeman P17?

Stephen,

Are you looking into 10M competition?
How serious are you about competition?
What is your gun budget to start?

You could start with a P-17 for less than $50. It's accurate enough to start, but not much more. Maybe one of the Diana's would work. Maybe an Air Venturi V10, or AV-46? If you have enough in your budget, the Hammerli AP-20 is a great starting pistol for 10M. There's also the Alpha Proj and Ataman AP16.

Consider this when choosing . . . If choosing PCP or CO2, you want to be able to shoot a minimum of 60 shots per fill. ISSF competitions are 60 shots plus the finals. Single pumps will work, as long as you can pump and shoot 60 shots in 75 minutes.

There is a lot to consider. If you think you're going to take this seriously, I would recommend starting with a Hammerli AP-20 or the AP-20 PRO. The Alpha Proj is good as is the Ataman AP-16. If you're really serious, look into a Steyr, Morini, Walther, FWB, or Pardini. This last group will enable you to shoot a lifetime and not need to upgrade - you will not need to re-learn to shoot a different pistol.  The group of pistols in this paragraph are PCP 's.

Probably the best advice is . . . Buy the best pistol you can afford - make certain it fits your hand and you can shoot it comfortably for 70 + shots.

This info i provide is rather vague, but should get you started thinking - and asking more questions.  Ac12 should chime in soon, asGr he has been shooting competitions for quite some time and offers great advice.

Great questions.  Yes, I want to try 10-meter competitions.  I don't how serious I want to get because I have never shot in pistol competition.  I am new to shooting sports and only started shooting this past spring, after buying a PCP rifle to deal with some pests.  I found I really enjoy target shooting and have bought a second PCP rifle in .177 to, hopefully, try field target this spring and summer.  I have a 10-meter range in my basement and thought I would like to try pistol shooting too. There are 10-Meter pistol competitions being held in my state.  It looks like something fun to do, shooting-wise, indoors, in the winter.

Budget.....  I would like to keep it to $100 or less.  That way if I find I don't enjoy pistols or have no talent shooting them, it won't be a big loss.  Also, I am still hand-pumping the rifles and would like to buy a tank and/or compressor soon.  Also... $$$$ and Wife!!!

I know virtually nothing about competition target pistol.   No idea what can and cannot be used or is worth using.  I have a big learning curve.


 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 05:52:41 PM by mwgm2020 »
  • USA, Southwestern CT
Stephen,

Benjamin Fortitude Gen 2 .22 Cal - UTG "Hunter" 3-9X40-AO-IR
Kral Arms Puncher Mega Synthetic .177 Cal - Hawke 30 Sidewinder 8-32 x 52

Offline Duckster

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Real Name: charlie
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2021, 06:12:50 PM »
Oh, Firewalker - I forgot . . . Let me know what you think of that Diana Bandit. I've been thinking about getting one because . . . Well . . . I don't have one. Any reply will be appreciated.
  • Location: 10M from target
My favorite air gun ?

Gamo P-430                               Crossman SNR 357
Beeman P-17                             Crossman CR 357
Umarex Glock 19                       Daisy 426
Umarex UX 357                          Morini 163Ei

Daisy Red Ryder                          Hatsan Edge
Daisy 853                                     Xisico Sentry 705 - 9K
Winchester 1100                         Springfield M1A

Offline Firewalker

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
  • USN from birth to the grave
  • Real Name: David
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2021, 06:14:41 PM »
Thanks Chuck, I will pass on all your advice and that from the others. Never hurts to have some good people backing you, right? 

I have competed in pistol 'back in the day' with .38 special with my Dan Wesson model 15 but never with an airgun. I dont have a lot to tell her since I shot timed targets on steel only, no bullseyes.

The 'club' she wants to join is very informal, non-timed, each person gets a lane and sends so many down for each target. I think its more of a social thing frankly but I'll never spoil it for her.




Firewalker,

i really like your wife's opportunity - keeping all participants using identical guns is a great idea. i wish her the best !

to add to something ac12 mentioned - i keep a light over the target as he does, but i also keep a light over the firing point. because we only shoot iron sights, having a light above the firing point makes for seeing the front sight much easier.

it's always a good thing when husband and wife can go out to the garage and plink around for a while.
hope these suggestions help !
  • USA, MN, Mille Lacs
You may not go around, you must go through.

Offline chico

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
  • yes
  • Real Name: chuck
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2021, 07:01:30 PM »
Stephen,

i'm not real familiar with them, but look into the Beeman 2027, the Diana Chaser and the Diana Bandit. you mentioned the Crosman 1377 in your initial post. that may work, but i believe you may be better to start with a PCP or CO2. pumping the Crosman for a 60 shot match might add quite a bit to the fatigue factor.

if possible, attend one of these matches to get the feel of what all is happening. it will be a good opportunity to talk to a competitor. you can also talk to one of the range officers. they are usually experienced shooters themselves and will be more than willing to help you, especially if you start asking questions about the rules and/or procedures. a lot can be learned by being a spectator.

being able to shoot in the basement is a tremendous boost. you can shoot every day - rain or shine - and improve rather quickly.

it's not going to be an easy adventure. it's going to take a lot of work. i would suggest that you take 60 shots at your very first target - place that target in a drawer. leave it there. then, in a couple months, or whenever you start to get frustrated, pull out that first target and compare it to your current one. look at how you've improved. then put those two back in the drawer. you can update the targets at whatever interval you choose - monthly, quarterly, semi-annually - whatever you prefer.

competition pistol shooting, they say, is more challenging than rifle shooting. regardless of which route you choose, you will only get out of the sport, what you put into it.

there are (2) books that helped me and i would recommend - "With Winning in Mind" by Lanny Bassham, and "Bullseye Mind" by Raymond Prior, PhD.
for rifle shooting, i read (2) great books by David Tubb and would highly recommend them.
i am currently reading a book for "Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting," but that's for a different day.

hope some of this helps you along your way. anytime you have questions feel free to PM me, or open a thread and we'll all help as best as we can. don't get in too much of a rush, keep up your research with diligence and make good decisions.
  • Port Clinton, Ohio

Offline Firewalker

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
  • USN from birth to the grave
  • Real Name: David
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2021, 08:15:48 PM »
Charlie, I really like the gun. I spend some time with the wood working tools and a lot of back and forth fitting the grip to my wife's hands until it pointed instinctively and shot center of target. The grip is large so there is plenty of wood to hog off. If you have large hands, this may fit fine but for me even, the grips were enormous!

Hang on while I shoot a magazine from 10m since I am working on my informal 10m for Brett's post and I have the lights on, table set up and pellets out....

OK, not bad, could have used a few cups less coffee this morning.  :o







 
Oh, Firewalker - I forgot . . . Let me know what you think of that Diana Bandit. I've been thinking about getting one because . . . Well . . . I don't have one. Any reply will be appreciated.
  • USA, MN, Mille Lacs
You may not go around, you must go through.

Offline Duckster

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Real Name: charlie
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2021, 08:42:28 PM »
Thanks  David.

I suggested this gun, the Chaser and a Beeman to the OP as ones to consider for 10M shooting. I don't believe he would be happy with a pump pistol.

I believe I'll look into the Bandit for my next purchase - after I pick up my Air Venturi/Springfield Armory M1A next weekend.

Thanks for your report,  David.
  • Location: 10M from target
My favorite air gun ?

Gamo P-430                               Crossman SNR 357
Beeman P-17                             Crossman CR 357
Umarex Glock 19                       Daisy 426
Umarex UX 357                          Morini 163Ei

Daisy Red Ryder                          Hatsan Edge
Daisy 853                                     Xisico Sentry 705 - 9K
Winchester 1100                         Springfield M1A

Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2021, 10:46:09 PM »
- quote
Great questions.  Yes, I want to try 10-meter competitions.  I don't how serious I want to get because I have never shot in pistol competition.  I am new to shooting sports and only started shooting this past spring, after buying a PCP rifle to deal with some pests.  I found I really enjoy target shooting and have bought a second PCP rifle in .177 to, hopefully, try field target this spring and summer.  I have a 10-meter range in my basement and thought I would like to try pistol shooting too. There are 10-Meter pistol competitions being held in my state.  It looks like something fun to do, shooting-wise, indoors, in the winter.

Budget.....  I would like to keep it to $100 or less.  That way if I find I don't enjoy pistols or have no talent shooting them, it won't be a big loss.  Also, I am still hand-pumping the rifles and would like to buy a tank and/or compressor soon.  Also... $$$$ and Wife!!!

I know virtually nothing about competition target pistol.   No idea what can and cannot be used or is worth using.  I have a big learning curve.
- end quote

CRUM, I lost my post

$100 budget is goina be tuff.  But it can be done for an entry level gun.
- The Daisy 717 has been sold on eBay for under $100.  You might be lucky and find similar.  It is old, so expect to have to reseal the piston.
- As for the P17, why not.  You have to start somewhere.  Just set your expectations appropriately.

I would say shoot whatever you want to.
But there are practical exceptions:
- multi pump.  As @Chico said, your arm will get tired pumping for 60+ shots, within the match period.  And the other shooters probably won't like the "slap slap slap" sound of the charging handle, as that would be really distracting.
- If the gas gun cannot shoot 100 shots, you may/will have to regas the gun in the middle of the match.  But most importantly, you really do NOT want to have to use a hand pump to do that.  #1 you do not have time for that, and #2 you are going to get tired, which will drop your scores.  Have to refill from a cartridge, tank or compressor.
- Spring.  Unless you shoot a match spring pistol (like FWB-65 or Diana 10), forget the spring guns.  The recoil will kill your accuracy.
- Power.  NO high power pistol (spring or gas).  High power guns can/will damage the traps.
- Size.  As someone said, there actually is a box that the gun has to fit into (420x200x50mm).  Some of the non-match guns may not fit into the box, and you will fail the equipment check.
Example1  A Crosman 2300 with a 16 inch barrel, is too long and won't fit.
Example2  A pistol with a WIDE thumb rest or BIG bolt handle may be too wide and the box won't close.
- Caliber.  All regulation matches are .177 caliber pellet only.  Your .22 pistol will fail the equipment check.

As for shooting.
- If it is a formal meet, check with the meet organizers, to see if your gun will be allowed to shoot.  It will be the pits, if you show up and they tell you that you cannot shoot your gun.
- Casual meets will probably be more accommodating than the formal regulation meets.  But check anyway, some are more accommodating that others.

Gud Luk
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 11:04:02 PM by ac12 »
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle

Offline AlanMcD

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 802
  • yes
  • Real Name: Alan
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2021, 02:03:43 PM »
Stephen,

I'll offer some insights as a new shooter in this space.  Like you, I have really enjoyed my air rifles, and had dabbled in some air pistols, although mine are .22 calibers.  I have a good shooting custom Crosman 1322 multi-pump, and an early version of the Artemis PP700 PCP that is amazingly accurate.

I wanted to get into target pistol, and always figured the thing holding me back from shooting pistols well was the capability of the guns - after all, I am pretty good with my air rifles.  So I was able to pick up Air Arms Alfa and RH grip at a good price, only to find out what AC12 is saying is so true - shooting AP well is amazingly difficult!  I have been working with it for about 6 months, and I still can't hold the black over 20 shots, and as AC12 says not taking the shot is so hard to do - and since I occasionally go ahead and fire I still get occasional shots way off the bull (1s or 2s).  Here I thought the better gun would take care of those for me . . . .

It turns out that I could have done fine working on my basic skills with that PP700 (although I do like having the Alfa).  For the foreseeable future, I will doing basement shooting only - in fact, I have only done 60 shots in one session once and am in no hurry to repeat it.  For now I typically do some dry firing then do 30 shots in a session, so breaks to fill the gun are no issue for me.  If I end up in a competition at some point, I will simply have to fill it mid session.

So here is my advice.  Given your budget, get something cheap and just start working on your shooting with it.  As you progress you can decide then if you want to get a purpose made target pistol.  The P17 would be a good starting point, and you can keep watching a for good used one as you work.  You don't need to have the better gun to start the process.  If you are like me, it won't take much of a pistol for it to be more accurate than I am.  Of course a good fit and ergonomics help, but even that won't move you to small groups.  Sadly, everything else we do matters much more.
  • Michigan

Offline Hoosier Daddy

  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 17057
  • Start the day with the GTA!
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2021, 02:10:34 PM »
Just to see if you like it, for $100 or less, the Beeman p-17 is a sound choice.
 When you get into true competition guns, imagine 10-20x that.
Psalm 27

JimQwerty123 always said ...
"Shoot safe and have fun,"


Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2021, 06:59:41 PM »
@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.

Do NOT ring score your target 1-10.  Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.

When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10.  Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.

The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores. 
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.

Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s.  So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots.  I'll take holding the 8-ring.
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle

Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2021, 07:08:20 PM »
Since I have not shot a P17, I have no idea how that gun shoots.
Set a baseline, so you know what the gun will do.
Shoot off a sandbag on a stable rest.  This will minimizes your hold as a variable, and gives you a good idea of what the gun itself can do.
Example, if on the rest, you can hold the 9 ring in a 10 shot string. 
Then when you shoot standing unsupported, you know that you can't blame the gun for the shot in the 2-ring.
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle

Offline Hoosier Daddy

  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 17057
  • Start the day with the GTA!
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2021, 07:52:30 PM »
@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.

Do NOT ring score your target 1-10.  Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.

When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10.  Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.

The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores. 
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.

Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s.  So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots.  I'll take holding the 8-ring.

BRILLIANT!

I may add a key I learned about shoes.
Flat soled shoes prevent rocking as mentioned... You know what works?
"Converse All Stars"... AKA" "Cucks".
Psalm 27

JimQwerty123 always said ...
"Shoot safe and have fun,"


Offline mwgm2020

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • yes
  • Real Name: Stephen
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2021, 12:42:48 AM »
Thank you all!  What a great primer on getting into AP Target.  Sorry for the late reply, suddenly busy with work.  I have been reading the thread.  I figured there was a lot to learn but who would have thought I would need to buy a pair of Converse sneakers too?

I've been tracking Daisy 717's on eBay.  Are there any issues with older guns and modern pellets?  Also, the side cock leaver of the 717 looks like a PITA. 

A PCP looks like a better option than a CO2 as I already have the pump and plan on getting a tank.  I am shooting 40-100 rounds a day with my rifles, and so imagine shooting the pistol an equal amount. The CO2 cartridges would add up quickly.

The Beeman 2027 and Diana Bandit are not too far out of the budget and maybe I could find a used one a bit cheaper. 

Any thoughts on the Crosman 1701P Silhouette?  Not in the budget range, but it reminds me of my fortitude. 

A lot to think about.   
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:16:41 AM by mwgm2020 »
  • USA, Southwestern CT
Stephen,

Benjamin Fortitude Gen 2 .22 Cal - UTG "Hunter" 3-9X40-AO-IR
Kral Arms Puncher Mega Synthetic .177 Cal - Hawke 30 Sidewinder 8-32 x 52

Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2021, 03:05:35 AM »
Older guns with modern pellets, no problem.  I do it with my vintage 1980s guns.

Yes, the side charging lever on the 717 is awkward.  Not a PITA, but it is a bit tricky figure out how to do it.  But once you figure it out, it isn't bad.  At least I don't remember it being an issue.
Frankly, I am more afraid of pinching my fingers/hand with a P17/P3 type gun.

IF you are thinking about shooting at a regulation match, you need to consider the size of the gun.
Some of the non 10m target guns may not fit into the box.  I have my doubts about the Beeman 2027 and Diana Bandit.  But for casual home use, who cares.
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle

Offline Hoosier Daddy

  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 17057
  • Start the day with the GTA!
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2021, 06:56:53 AM »
As for the 1701P Silhouette, the initial price of the gun does not include a rear sight. A match grade sight like a Williams AG-FP that come on the 2300 will run you about another $100


Psalm 27

JimQwerty123 always said ...
"Shoot safe and have fun,"


Offline Duckster

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Real Name: charlie
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2021, 07:23:38 AM »


Can the bolt be moved to the other side?
  • Location: 10M from target
My favorite air gun ?

Gamo P-430                               Crossman SNR 357
Beeman P-17                             Crossman CR 357
Umarex Glock 19                       Daisy 426
Umarex UX 357                          Morini 163Ei

Daisy Red Ryder                          Hatsan Edge
Daisy 853                                     Xisico Sentry 705 - 9K
Winchester 1100                         Springfield M1A

Offline Hoosier Daddy

  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 17057
  • Start the day with the GTA!
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2021, 01:11:30 PM »
That pic is a 2300, it would require an aftermarket breech.
 The 1701-P bolt is on the left side so you do not have to remove your grip when reloading... and yes, I believe it can be swapped if desired.
Psalm 27

JimQwerty123 always said ...
"Shoot safe and have fun,"


Offline Racerman111

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • F=(1/2)mv^2
  • Real Name: Paul
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2021, 03:02:46 PM »
@Alan
A mental trick that my coach taught me.

Do NOT ring score your target 1-10.  Score your shooting as 0/1.
Pick a ring that you want to keep your shots inside of, say the 8 ring.
Anything outside the 8-ring = 0
Anything on or inside the 8-ring = 1
When it becomes easy to hold the 8-ring, go to the next ring, the 7-ring.

When you score 0 or 1 per shot, it removes the pressure of shooting a 10.  Cuz even if you shoot the 10 ring, you only get 1 point.

The goal here is to learn to shoot tighter groups, not higher scores. 
The tight groups will naturally lead to better scores.
It is the flyers that will kill your scores, and that is what shooting tight groups is trying to prevent.

Example for 5 shots
If shot one is a 1, you need to shoot four 10s to score a 41.
Where as if you can hold the 8 ring, some of those 5 shots will be 9s and 10s.  So you will score higher than 41.
Now think of how hard it is for most of us to shoot four 10s, out of five shots.  I'll take holding the 8-ring.

Really appreciate this... good thing to do for any shooter. Have not done any competitive shooting other than IDPA quite a few years back, and just decided would like to get into the informal pistol matches here to get more experience and keep motivated... been a while since I've shot any pistol, and finally decided to get an air pistol since much harder /no time for getting to range for an actual firearm. Nice way/method to help on tightening shot group. Once pistol gets here will get to practising and getting pistol shooting fundamentals down again, good timing since matches start in April right?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 03:09:17 PM by Racerman111 »
  • USA, TX, Houston
Benjamin Cayden (.22)
Chiappa FAS 6004
SIG ASP 20 (.177)

Offline RickHem

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • yes
  • Real Name: Rick
Re: Entry Level Pistol for 10 M Target Shooting
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2021, 04:17:07 PM »
Not sure if the original poster is still looking, but here's a good option for a decent price:
http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=63078

  • Western Capitol Region, NY, USA