GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Boolit and Pellet Casting => Topic started by: Nvreloader on October 15, 2018, 02:20:33 PM
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Guys
FWIW,
Here is a way to measure/test the approximate hardness of your lead, that I am going to test, to see the results etc.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing)
The only area that may cause a great difference is the angle of the pencil, when pushed into the lead, as there was no standardized angle used etc.
I would believe that a shallower standardized angle may produce the most uniform results.
There is a couple of guys here (will not name them) that may jump right in etc.......LOL ;)
Your thoughts or suggestions.............
Tia,
Don
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Do you want to test the hardness of the pellet or do you want to test the hardness of the pellet? I have no idea of the diameter of the pellets that you might be testing, but small diameter hollow base bullets could be a real pain to test. The outside circumference may yield and change during the testing. I cast a test blank roughly 1/4" thick ad 3/4" in diameter and test the blank.
Good Luck
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Bob
I will be testing the lead hardness for the casting pellets from the NOE molds etc,
and I want to make sure I am using the softest lead possible, to start with.
After casting and testing/shooting the pellets etc, if I need to make a harder alloy,
that is fairly easy to add the proper element to harden it up.
And yes, I have been thinking about testing some of the store bought pellets also,
as I have seen a difference in the Crosman line recently.
Thank you,
Don
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I been dreaming "real" hardness tester made by Saeco. Couple things hinders it is out of stock from Buffalo Arms and price is quite high almost 170$...Knowing that shipping and tax etc it goes way over 200€... But i think it will last rest of my life. And been learning that getting cheapest tool isn't wise thing to do..
Althought i've been reading from cast boolits on that pencil test etc. But I'm not sure how accurate it really is. I think when shooting fire arms it isn't so important but airguns.. That 2-3 BHN can make huge difference
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One cold morning I cast up a bunch of the 217-24-RF's and the color of them was much darker (fast cooling) however they actually turned out good and shoot just as good but I suspect they might be just a tiny bit harder considering the fast cooling but being I cast them from pure lead it probably won't be much harder.
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Teemu
I also checked out some of the OEM lead testers, way above my pay scale, for the amount of use it will get. LOL
I'll post what I find about the hardness tests, as soon as the pencils get here, which should be today.
I am very curious to see the results of the testing, and I'll do all the OEM pellets I have on hand.
I know I have some pure lead in the shop somewhere, I just have to find it. ;)
I have a couple of 20mm ammo cans full of different lead, from WW to flat sheets, of unknown type/hardness's,
that I can test also, so I can get some experience, I hope......
More later,
Tia,
Don
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I have also different alloys and old casted bullets to be tested. Probably 100kg so it would be nice to get those on use but need to test that alloy. Just ordered GRS benchrest blank stock so need to wait that hardness testing tool for some time...Not first priority but i'll get it some day ;D
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Never tried pencil hardness on lead ...
Walmart appears to have the least expensive one.
Buy quality pencils ... We use a draftsman's mechanical pencil with Faber Castell leads in the shop.
Consistent angle and weight/pressure are the keys to repeatable results. 8)
https://www.google.com/search?q=pencil+hardness+test&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS411US491&oq=pencil+hardness+test&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7863j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=pencil+hardness+test&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS411US491&oq=pencil+hardness+test&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7863j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
Personally, indent type testers are the way to go especially if you have a verified reference/hardness standard.
I've been using my Saeco tester since the early 70's.
I had access to some 'certified' pure lead when I was doing assay work and cast some samples that I use to verify the accuracy of the tester.
Even went as far as having a friend in an aerospace lab test the samples on calibrated equipment to Vickers, Brinell, and Rockwell scales. (Some HARD cast ones too!!)
When I have a melt going, I cast a few bullets using an old single cavity 38 cal. SWC mould as they are relatively easy to handle when using the tester.
As always, YMMV. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Jim
Thanks for that info.
I have a set of the Staedtler Mars Lumograph Design & Drafting Pencils 12 Piece Assorted Set coming soon
should have been here yesterday, and a metal sharpener to adapt for the correct lead shape etc.
I have a adjustable angle jig, that I can lay the pencil in/on, so I can slide/push the pencil into the lead,
on the bigger chunks of lead, there will be no problems, but those tiny pellets may pose a headache,
as I plan to test on the skirt lengths, either outside or the inside.
I'll see how this pellet holder works, ::)
just a simple piece of alum with a round trough cut length ways, to fit the dia of the pellet size needed,
that ends against a 90* wall to hold the pellet stable, slide the jig up to the skirt edge, then push the pencil into the lead.
On the OEM post info, they are using a 45* for the pencil pushing, that angle seems to me, to be very steep etc.
There is 2 different post about this method, here is the Original post,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils)
I have some pellets that should test very hard, Gamo Platinum, can't hardly scratch the surface with a finger nail,
and on the other end, the Beeman pellets I can dent with a finger nail, very easy etc.
I am curios to the results, YMMV...... ;)
Tia,
Don
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I been dreaming "real" hardness tester made by Saeco. Couple things hinders it is out of stock from Buffalo Arms and price is quite high almost 170$...Knowing that shipping and tax etc it goes way over 200€... But i think it will last rest of my life. And been learning that getting cheapest tool isn't wise thing to do..
Althought i've been reading from cast boolits on that pencil test etc. But I'm not sure how accurate it really is. I think when shooting fire arms it isn't so important but airguns.. That 2-3 BHN can make huge difference
It's surprisingly accurate. I've used a scaled penciled set before. As with everything you get what you pay for. Cheap pencil sets will be off. Had a cheap set purchased from Walmart with 3B and 4B pencils were identical hardness. A higher priced drafting set would work perfect.
In general the sets are used when purchasing lead to confirm it is what it's being sold as. If a 6B pencil won't curl an ingot then it's not pure lead. It saved me from using what was a hard sheet lead. You think sheet lead of being darn pure but this was telephone pole insulator and took 2B pencil. They also work well when I have the false believe I'll remember what alloy is left in your melting pot. If a 5B pencil pushes lead then it was 1% tin not 3%. Basically it works very well.
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NVReloader-
You won't need a jig. Once you start doing it it's very apparent and easy. The trick is to sand the tip of graphite flat. So mechanical pencils would be advantage, not having to sharpen or whittle the wood away to expose more graphite. Put that 30 to 45 degree angle to surface of lead. It will peel it up or barely dent it or break the tip of pencil if you push too hard. There's no guessing which is harder, the sharp edge of pencil created by sanding flat will peel lead or it won't.
Once you get the knack of it it could be safe holding pellet with your hand. I'd start with ingots until you realize control. Might stab yourself starting with pellet.
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Thanks Garrett
My pencils SHOULD have been here a couple three days ago,
I hope the Pony Express rider didn't get ambushed again, LOL,
Have been working on my smaller melting pot etc,
just waiting for the PE............
I post my findings regardless the outcome,
I got the good Staedtler Mars Lumograph Design & Drafting Pencils 12 Piece Assorted Set,
and found that they also have more options on the soft end, such as 7B, 8b, and 9B etc.
Tia,
Don
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Hey Guys,
My pencils finally got here, along with the sharpener,
So I proceeded to mod the sharpener, per the info from this post #1 and #2,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing)
Dug out the OEM KMart Crosman's Premier Piranha's 22 cal 14.3gr, (which don't shoot worth sour Owl ....),
in my QB 79, started testing the pencils out, as to "get the lay of the land"........LOL.
Guess at what I found, (these are the latest buy, and are harder that the first cans, I bought a couple of yrs ago),
going up the pencil range in hardness scale,
the 6B (softest lead) thru the 4B pencil would NOT CUT a trough into the skirts sides,
the sharp 90* edge would just slide along and NOT make a trough into the lead.
See here to get the scaling: (I cannot copy/paste this scale).
https://i.imgur.com/frAfUvB.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/frAfUvB.jpg)
I then used a 3B pencil and it cut a shallow trough along the skirt,
meaning the lead hardness of this pellet was around/in the 20/1 lead-Tin ratio range.
All the other harder pencils will cut a trough in the lead.
I started at the base of the skirt and pushing towards the waist, with the pencil held approximately a 20-30* angle,
with the correct angle for pushing the pencil, the pencil lead would push up a wave, in front of the pencil lead,
and a curl of lead could be felt/seen etc.
This is just a teaser, as I plan to test all the 15-20 different brands/types I have on hand,
and may post the results, I find......... ;) ;D
I also have some old cast ingots from the 70/80's of different lead types/mixtures to test also,
for S,G and giggles. ;)
Anyone else that has done this, I would greatly appreciate the feedback........
Just some more useful info for our site..............
Tia,
Don
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=21esd_H8VUU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21esd_H8VUU#)
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subscriber
Thanks for the info,
I noticed that he did not use the full diameter of the lead, like the OEM post where I found the info etc,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing)
I am testing all the different brands/styles of pellets I have on hand, plus I am testing some new lead bars,
that I melted from pure lead etc, as I set up the new casting equipment, with the NOE mold.
As soon as I get everything tested, I'll post the results, that I find.
I am curious about the hardness -vs- accuracy end, as the QB-22 cal,
I have does not shoot accurate with anything so far, (Crosman pellets mainly).
I was getting decent accuracy, around 1/2-3/4" at 40 yds, SOMETIMES, with other band names, (JSB)
then it turns into a 12 ga with a couples of flyers in each group etc, which drives me up the wall.
I don't completely trust the OEM bbl etc, and have a backup standing by,
have a new scope that works very well, all I have to do is test everything uniformly, from start to finish.
IMHO,
I have a feeling that the hardness of the OEM pellets, has a LOT to do, with the accuracy,
which I'll find out, as I can control the hardness of the pellets I cast etc.
More later............
Tia,
Don
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subscriber, I see that Staedler have two sets of 12 pencils available, the 100G12, which you have, and the 100G12S, which goes from 8B up to 2H.... Since I am mostly interested in the softer alloys, would that make more sense?....
Bob
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Gents,
That video was posted on youtube by NYC Reloader:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7nk4IrqNPxFTjgM2M1LSwg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7nk4IrqNPxFTjgM2M1LSwg)
I agree that softer pencils would make more sense for softer lead testing; but I don't have specific info about it. I posted the pencil model number question at the video on youtube, and will let you know if anyone responds definitively.
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Bob
A question for you,
Is there lead Softer than pure lead?
On post #14, is the OP thread, go to his (Grmps) pg 2 and he has a chart for the hardness of the lead tested,
the 6B pencil is for dead soft/pure lead and then go up in pencil hardness thru the pencil grades, for testing the other hardness.
Here is the OP (grmps) for pencil testing etc, (see pg #2),
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing)
I have the 100G12 set that runs from 6B thru 4H, that should cover most all the soft or hard leads levels,
within reason, I would believe.
I was going to buy the 7B & 8B pencils, but figured that it would not make any difference,
as the 6B is what works on the pure soft lead etc.
Your thoughts or suggestions........
Tia,
Don
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Bob,
The video maker replied that the Staedler 100G12 pencil set is better suited to soft lead.
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If the 6B pencil scratches "pure" lead, would it not be interesting to see if a 7B (or 8B) did as well (they are in the 100G12S set)?.... Perhaps the tester in the video hasn't tried a 7B, because it isn't included in the 100G12 set?.... If a 6B scratched pure lead and a 7B did not, that is information I don't currently have, as the video didn't show trying a 7B on pure lead.... I would certainly have no interest in anything you could not scratch with a 2H pencil, so the worst case would be that I would still have the entire range I am interested in covered anyways....
I remember from my rockhounding days that the only way to properly determine hardness was to find both the tester which does, and does not, scratch the sample....
Bob
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the only way to properly determine hardness was to find both the tester which does, and does not, scratch the sample....
Makes perfect sense to bracket a binary characteristic. Else, one is left guessing "how much" harder or softer.
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Bob
I never thought along those lines, I guess I'll get the 7B & 8B pencils for the set also,
just make sure, as I don't need the harder end. ;)
I am very curious as to the hardness of the pellets I have, 17 thru 25 calibers.
I know there is a difference between the older and newer Crosman pellet I have in stock.
I just got thru testing some pure sheet lead, that I melted down in a new clean pot,
and found the 6B pencil cuts a trough, very easily etc.
Thanks,
Don
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the 6B pencil cuts a trough, very easily
Exactly why I want to try 7B and 8B.... It may well be that we can differentiate between pure lead and 1% tin by doing that....
Bob
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Bob
First off, let me apologize to you, for the comment on my post #17,
I was not attempting to be a smart Azz,
I thought that maybe you knew something, that I had no info about............ :-[
Do you think that when using these pencils, (I don't know the answer),
that they could find that small a percentage of of tin or any harder material in lead, or OEM pellets out there?
I just ordered a 7B & 8B pencils to add to my set, waiting for them to get here,
I could not find any in the 9B range, but I found out the hardness can go up to 9H. :o
Thanks,
Don
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I saw a reference for a 7B being pure and sheet lead, and a 6B for lead wire, while a 5B is for 40:1 (2.5% tin)…. I was hoping that with experience we might be able to differentiate 1% tin from the others, but only experimenting will tell us for sure....
Bob
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Thanks Bob
The pure lead, I tested was from a section of cable sheathing/piping, approx 6" in dia,
which was melted down, then tested etc.
Tia,
Don
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NVReloader, your post on scratching a pellet stated a 3B was 25:1 alloy but my chart says 20:1 is 3B. The first pencil to scratch it is of equal hardness to lead so by my chart your pellet is 10 BHN.
I'll have to check my set of pencils. Find them first is more like it. Don't remember if my set went softer than 6B or not. My "pure" lead is 99.8% and 6B scratches it. 99.99% pure lead is available and it's quite possible a 7B will scratch it.
Keep in mind "pure" lead is a relative term. Natural impurities are present unless cleaned away. This is why BHN of lead is listed as 5 but if you use ultra pure lead it is actually lower than 4.5 BHN. Bob uses the purest Rotometals so there is a very good chance the 7B will scratch pure and 6B scratch 1% tin. Using his Rotometals that 1% is really a touch over 5 BHN, far softer than 6BHN.
I'll rummage around this morning before work, locate pencils and if I have a 7B will check my 99.8 lead to report back.
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As suspected, my cheapo set doesn't have a 7B but has an 8B and jumps to 6B.
6b scratches my "pure lead", 8B not even close. My hand mix of 1% tin alloy requires 5B to scratch it. I've a cheap set who's ASTM hardness standards are not as exacting as a quality Steadler set and also have not so pure "pure" lead as base- 99.8%.
Something to keep in mind is alloy require curing time. Tin alloy will soften with age and antimony alloy hardens with age. Like all cures, full time is 21 days but 85% of curing is in after 7 days.
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Garrett
Thanks for your info, and finding the mistake I made,
I see, that I miss quoted the wrong range, that what I get for flipping from one site to another, :-[
I have correct this mistake on my post.
Question for you,
Which chart are you using? Do you have a different chart?
The chart I was referring to was, this one: (was posted on the cast bullet forum),
https://i.imgur.com/frAfUvB.jpg
I can't seem to copy and paste this chart etc, to keep the same info thru all the posts and have the correct info etc.
I have the 7 & 8B pencils coming, and I am attempting to find a 9B pencil to add this set also.
Once I have all these pencils, then I'll do my test on all the pellets I have and post the results etc.
I am aware of the curing times of alloys, I have some lead that was cast from the late 70's,
and will be testing them also, I do remember that they were HARD, with Lino added, for a 357 Mag project etc.
I for one, would be greatly interested in any and all info, related to this type of testing etc.
Thank you,
Don
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I think it's the same chart just in a different location and format- jpg file.
http://preppersvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Pencil-hardness-test-versus-Brinell-hardness-of-lead-alloys.jpg (http://preppersvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Pencil-hardness-test-versus-Brinell-hardness-of-lead-alloys.jpg)
I don't see a need for 8 or 9B pencils. You're not going to get softer than 7B lead and that's even if the ultra pure 99.99% lead is able to be scratched by a 7B. Good chance it can as it's definitely closer to 4 BHN than it is to 5. Lead with impurities like mine, 99.8%, and sheet lead are at 5 BHN.
Each % of tin raises the BHN by 1. We just always assume the base lead is 5 but if a person is starting with pure lead then 4-4.5 is the real number. So a 40:1 would be 6.5 - 7 BHN, 25:1 would be 8- 8.5 BHN and so on. The constant is adding a percent per percent tin. The variable is how pure your base lead is.
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Rotometals state that their 40:1 alloy (2.5% tin) is BHN 8.... but I have never checked it....
Bob
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Thanks Guys
Garrett
That chart is the same one I am using.
I don't have enough info to figure out the % if tin to lead ratio yet and see if the info follows thru with the pencil testing etc.
If I have the complete range of pencils, then I can say which ever pencil range cuts the lead,
and the next softer range does not cut the lead etc, then the BHN should be around this range.
If the same chart is used by all, then the info given or posted should be relatively close,
the only item that would change these ratings, would be to have the lead tested for the exact % of mixtures,
and then the pencil test would be fairly close etc. IMHO
I am hopeful that enough info will come forth to have good usable info, for everyone to follow etc.
Tia,
Don
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Rotometals state that their 40:1 alloy (2.5% tin) is BHN 8.... but I have never checked it....
Bob
Bob,
I doubt RotoMetals performs hardness tests. My thought is they are posting what's convention. I would bet doughnuts if one mixed an alloy 40:1 with their 99.9% and tin they'd be at 7 BHN. Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things.
The only part it matters is if a 7B can cut their pure lead. Then you'd never mix up the pure and 1% ingots again. LOL. Seriously, pencils are awesome and darn accurate. I love em. As stated before it's saved me from casting with 10 BHN lead that was left in the pot before and of if I don't label piles of ingots it reminds me which pile was 2% and so on.
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I did find this info while on the Roto-Metal site,
I did find out the BHN of their pure lead, The Brinell Hardness scale of 99.9% Lead,
Brinell hardness is approximately 5.
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
Their Pure Lead percentage,
ELEMENTS
Lead (Pb) 99.9241
Tin (Sn) <0.0001
Antimony (Sb) 0.0237
Copper (Cu) 0.0232
Arsenic (As) 0.0002
Bismuth (Bi) 0.0232
Silver (Ag) 0.0027
Nickel (Ni) 0.0004
Zinc (Zn) 0.0001
Iron (Fe) <0.0001
Cadmium (Cd) <0.0001
Other Sb+Sn+As 0.0239
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 (Antimonial Lead) + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )
Antimonal lead = This alloy consists of 95-97% lead and 3-5% antimony.
1 to 40 lead alloy
This alloy is comprised of forty parts of lead and one part of tin (97.5% lead, 2.5% tin),
and consistently expands at black powder velocities with excellent weight retention.
The Brinell Hardness scale of 40 to 1 alloy is approximately 8.5.
1 to 30 lead alloy
This alloy is thirty parts of lead and one part of tin (97% lead, 3% tin).
The Brinell Hardness Number of 1 to 30 Alloy is about 9.
1 to 25 lead alloy
This alloy is comprised of twenty five parts of lead and one part of tin(96% lead, 4% tin).
The Brinell Hardness Number of 1 to 25 Alloy is approximately 9.
1 to 20 lead alloy
This alloy is comprised of twenty parts of lead and one part of tin (95% lead, 5% tin).
The Brinell Hardness Number of 1 to 20 Alloy is approximately 10.
1 to 16 lead alloy
This alloy is 16 parts of lead and one part of tin (94% lead, 6% tin).
The Brinell Hardness scale of 16 to 1 is approximately 11.
Our Lyman #2 alloy (90% Lead, 5% Tin, 5% Antimony).
The Brinell Hardness of this Lyman 2 alloy is about ~ 16.
Metals Analysis Test XRF
***This for the test only, we do not sell Scientific Analyzers***
We can test your metal samples, items, toys etc. to tell you what alloy you have or what metals are present in your paint or plastic.
We also can see then if we can match that and create more of that alloy for you.
We can check for the following elements: Tin (SN), Antimony (SB), Copper (CU), Bismuth (BI), Silver (AG), Iron (FE), Nickel (NI),
Zinc (ZN), Cadmium (CD), Lead (PB). Indium (IN).
We use a New Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer.
HTH,
Tia,
Don
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I was at a Staples today, and they had the Staedler pencil sets on sale.... I picked up the 100G12S set, which covers 2H to 8B.... I plan to use the standard Staedler Mars Lumograph 23 deg. sharpener for consistency, and will push the point of the pencil away from me while holding the pencil at about 45 deg. to the surface of the lead.... At least that is the plan, I may have to use a steeper angle, say 60 deg.... whatever works so that the force is roughly in line with the pencil, and not trying to break the lead....
I have been thinking about the method of exposing a parallel section of lead and sanding it square.... or sharpening it to a chisel edge.... and I think you may not be measuring the hardness of the lead with that method, but rather the shear strength of it.... If you look at the photos where they are using that method, they are looking for a "curl" of lead forming ahead of the pencil, much like the way a chip curls from a drill bit, or lathe tool.... The ease of cutting is greatly dependent on the angles of the tool, and the angle it is held to the work, for you are actually shearing off a sliver of lead, not just doing a "scratch" test.... For this reason I think using a consistently sharpened pencil, pushed away at the correct angle, and looking for a simple scratch (eg. a shallow channel) may be a better indicator of hardness....
I think either method can work.... but I'm not sure that they are actually measuring the same thing, ie the hardness, which is what we want.... I haven't tried this yet, but I think there is a difference in the two methods, and the results they will give.... I guess I'll find out !!!
Bob
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I'm going to stick with pure lead from Rotometals myself, I'm having really good luck with it using it on my .22's and .25's ;D
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Thanks Bob
I modded a sharpener the way it was posted by Grmps,
I found that the sharp edge of the lead flattened to a full dia of the pencil lead,
will bite into the lead and cannot be moved forward on or about the 45* angle, without breaking the lead,
I tried pushing on the very end of the pencil and holding the pencil at the 45* angle etc.
When I changed the angle of attack to around 15-20*,
the pencil could be pushed forward and the pencil lead would cut a trough into the lead, that could be felt,
with the curl of lead, left at the end of the trough, from the pencil lead etc.
I then used an adjusted angle finder to get a workable angle, with better results and I could keep the correct angle,
every time for pushing the pencil forward with good results.
A softer pencil would just slide forward, leaving a pencil lead smear and NOT cut a trough or dig in,
going the next harder pencil would push up a curl of lead.
Once we come up with an approximate angle that works and gives good results,
I plan making a alum angle gage, so I am using a somewhat standardized angle for good results etc.
I'll be waiting for your info on what you find as to the angle etc, I tried using the 45* angle of a square,
and found out about the steepness 45* did not work for me, as I posted above. (I may have not been doing it right).
Tia,
Don
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Thanks Wayne
From the photo's you have post, those pellets look and have better results than OEM pellets,
I hope, I can have the same results, when I start casting them.
I would like to buy 15-25, 22 cal pellets, that you have cast from the Roto-Metal pure lead,
this would be used as a standard of the hardness to go by.
I'll send you a container to ship them in, to reduce any damage etc, if you want to send them etc. ;)
Just drop me a PM with the info needed to send the item to you, and the funds will be included,
for return shipment/payment.
Tia,
Don
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I can believe that you would need a very shallow angle if you square off the end of the lead.... It is working like a lathe cutting tool, or a chisel in creating the curl.... My concern is that you are actually measuring the shear strength of the lead, and not the hardness, but I could be in error....
Scratch tests in rockhounding are done using point or corner to see if it leaves a "scratch" mark....
Bob
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My preliminary testing show the following....
On a Rotometals pure lead ingot with a freshly cleaned surface (sanded smooth)
8B crumbles
7B leaves a shallow scratch
6B leaves a deep scratch
On a bullet cast with Rotometals pure lead with 1% tin added
7B barely leaves a mark while crumbling
6B leaves a decent scratch
5B leaves a deep scratch
On a Rotometals 40:1 (2.5% tin) ingot with a freshly cleaned surface (sanded smooth)
6B crumbles
5B leaves a decent scratch
4B leaves a deep scratch
On Rotometals "popcorn tin", remelted on wood, and then the underneath surface (was against the wood) sanded smooth....
4B crumbles
3B barely leaves a mark while crumbling
2B leaves a shallow scratch
B leaves a deep scratch
Using the previous "pencil scratch" tables, I would conclude that very pure lead is about BHN 4, 1% tin is about BHN 6, 2.5% tin is about BHN 8, and the tin I had is about BHN 11 (very pure tin might be slightly softer)….
Incidently, I tried scratching a JSB King pellet, and the 7B pencil left a decent scratch, so I would conclude that pellet is pure lead.... Another note, "my" fingernails easily scratched the 40:1 alloy, but would not scratch the tin, although they left a mark not unlike the 3B pencil.... I would conclude that the fingernail test, for me, can differentiate alloys softer than BHN 9, which means they are probably good enough for airgun use.... If I can scratch it with my fingernail it is probably OK for airgun use, if I can't, it's too hard.... YFMV (your fingernails may vary)…. ;D
Bob
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Bob
Thank you,
Did you use a sharp angle or rounded type of point on the pencil Lead?
What would your SWAG be as for the pencil tips, sharp cut 90* angle or slightly rounded, some thing different?
I just did a sample test on piece of lead bar, pure lead from a cable sheathing, as cast/poured, clean flat surface,
in the following manner,
I held the pencil like I was writing with it,
I slid the pencil lead along the lead bar, like I was underlining/scratching etc,
the 6B/5B pencils would just slide along the test bar, and not scratch the test lead.
I then used a 4B pencil and did the same the same test via the same method as above,
the 4B pencil would scratch the lead, leaving a mark that could be seen/felt.
Both pencil lead tips were cut to a 90* angle, when I used a slightly round lead tip,
I could scratch the lead with the 4B, leaving a shallow mark, but not with the 5B/6B pencils,
all of the other harder pencils would scratch the lead, the pencils softer than 4B would not scratch the lead etc.
So I believe that this lead bar is in the a BHN range of 9= 25:1 lead/tin ratio.
A quick - 5 pellet random test sample on the Crosman Piranha 14.3gr OEM pellet produced these results,
6B/5B pencils would NOT scratch the lead, just left a lead smear, when scratching,
a 4B would leave a very shallow scratch mark,
a 3B pencil would leave a scratch mark that could be felt,
so I would believe that this can of pellets is in the BHN range of 9 = 25:1 lead/tin
Your thoughts or suggestions...........
Tia,
Don
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I didn't find much difference in the shape of the point, although a very sharp point required less pressure to make a (narrow scratch)…. As the point wore down, more force was required, and the scratch was wider, as you would expect.... If the pencil is softer than the lead, it crumbles, and if harder, it scratches it.... Only when they are about the same hardness do you get a combination of crumbling of the pencil and a hard to decipher mark on the lead.... at least from the limited experience I have so far.... I think bracketing the BHN as I did in my tests makes it quite easy to determine which pencil is the same as the lead, which I interpret as a combination of crumbling and leaving a depression (scratch) in the lead....
I haven't tested any other pellets as yet, but Crosman pellets are definitely harder than JSBs.... BTW, I did my fingernail test on the pencils, and vice versa.... My fingernail scratches a 3B pencil but won't scratch a 2B.... while the 2B pencil will leave a very small mark on my fingernail.... Apparently my fingernails are BHN 10-11, which is a handy thing to know.... 8)
Bob
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Bob
I want to see your finger nails marked with 3B on them, are you using the thumb or finger nails.........LOL
What a picture,
the Big Blue Star Wars Dark Vader Cookie Monster, holding an AR, eating a cookie with painted 3B nails......ROTHFLMAO,
Just had to jerk on your chain, a little bit, all in good fun, ;) ;D Bob.
Thank you,
Don
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My 2.5B fingernails can scratch every pellet I picked up in my shop, some deeper than others.... I think the Crosman are the hardest, will have to test them with pencils when I get the time.... JSB are the softest, according to the depth of scratch from my fingernails.... I think they are all the same hardness, but for consistency I tested and am using my right thumbnail.... ::)
Bob
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I just tested a bullet cast with 1% tin, and it scratches with a 6B pencil.... I would estimate the BHN as 6, and have added that data to my post above....
Bob
-
Thanks Bob
I am now setting up all the pellets I have, 15-20 different brands and types, so I can do the pellet hardness tests etc.
I will do the slide/scratch test on a 5 test sample of each pellets, Random pick from the can,
and will post the results ASAP.
It would be very interesting to get several test samples from other around our shooting areas,
it might/should provide which pellets/hardness provides the best accuracy in what ever air guns,
as a general swag.
Once we get a good samples, I would hope that this info could be made a sticky,
to help those that follow behind etc.
Your thoughts or suggestion on the approximate diameter of the pencil lead points,
so we have a fairly consistent testing results thru out etc............
Tia,
Don
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I am just sharpening mine with the 23 deg. Staedler sharpener, and when if gets dull, resharpening it.... It doesn't really seem to make any difference to which pencil scratches the lead, but the sharper it is, the less force required to get the scratch, and the deeper and narrower the scratch is.... YMMV.... I am holding the pencil at about a 45 deg. angle, and pushing it away from me, so that the lead is in compression and doesn't break off sideways....
Bob
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Thanks Bob
I have the same brand sharpener, and I'll do the same angle when testing the pellets,
so my results should be fairly close, to your tests, I hope.
I should have the 7b & 8B pencils here tomorrow, to complete my pencil set,
according to the shipping tag info.
I ended up with close to 30+ different pellet to sample in 17 cal, 22 cal and 25 calibers,
which I don't even own, yet. LOL
Tia,
Don
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It's such a simple test isn't it? There really is no mistaking what pencil makes a mark. ASTM standards for pencil hardness are adhered to with a nice Steadler set. My cheapo Chinese set from Walmart not so much. This is why my 4 and 3 B's are of equal or near equal hardness and makes me wonder about the others some but hey, the 6,5 and 4B are all I need and they differentiate the alloys I mix up.
Learned my lesson long ago about trying to purchase scrap lead on the cheap. I only use pure lead and have a Rotometals tested bulk supply of 10 BHN I'd blended up with the last of the plumbers lead and and other sources I had with high tin content solder bar.
I'd like to point out that the source saying tin raises BHN 0.3 for every percent is wrong. If 40:1 (2.5%) tin is 8 bhn and we know this to be true (actually 7-8 BHN) then how did 2.5*0.3+5=8? If we assume 1% tin is 1 BHN then it all works better. 20:1 alloy is 10 BHN all day long. That's 5% tin + 5 BHN lead to equal 10. And I'd also like to point out that Bob and Steadler proved 99.9% lead is much softer than 5BHN if the 7B scratched it. If Rotometals does indeed perform a hardness test, I don't believe they do, then they are not using 99.9% in the alloys. But again, they say their pure is 5BHN which is convention for good lead. The truth is really pure lead is closer to 4. You'll find many sources substantiating this 4-4.5 BHN for purest lead. Steadler 7B doesn't lie. Nice find Bob.
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Just got in from Reno, VA Dr appt's, had to get my quick fix from here.......before bedtime. LOL
Garrett
The info, I posted in my post of #33 about the hardness of lead etc, was straight from the Roto-metal site etc,
I received a email back form them and they said that their pure lead is 5 BHN for hardness, via their testing,
I don't have the experience to confirm or deny that info posted.
After I get my beauty sleep, (I need it) after dealing with the blasted traffic of Reno, :(
I'll start the pellet testing, and post the results etc, as the 7B & 8B pencils were waiting for me.
I am real curious as to the results............ More later...................
Tia,
Don
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Nothing is valid if we are not using the EXACT same methods or procedure. ;)
And don't forget to rotate the pencil each time you attempt a scratch as you probably damaged your previously square and sharp "cutting edge". ;D
Attachment obtained from the WWW.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Guys
Here is some of the pellet testing I have completed so far.
Notes:
I started with a Steadler set of pencils from the 8B thru the 2H,
all pencils were sharpened to a point as provided via a 23* Steadler pencil shapener,
then re sharpened as needed to maintain a point.
I did a 5 pellet random sample from each can, using a new pellet for each test,
I held the pencil at approximately 45* angle, and pushed the pencil to have the point bearing inline with the length of the shaft.
If the pencil lead slid along the skirt (bottom edge towards the waist),
and left no marks that could be seen or felt (via finger nail), I marked it has as = did not cut =DNC,
if the pencil lead left a visible mark and could be felt, I marked it as CUT, any other notes were noted etc.
I also noted approximately how long I have had some of these pellets, some of these pellets were from the 70's,
and ALL are OEM pellets as produced via their brands/types etc, and if they had a model/type or number,
for each pellet, it was noted.
There was a surprise with the noted hardness..........of a certain brand name..........
I started with the 22 caliber first...........
JSB 22 caliber
Exact Jumbo-15.89-gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Heavy-18.13 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Monster Redesigned-25.39 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Ultra Shock Heavy-25.39-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
H&N
Field Target Trophy-#1069-14.66 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Field Target Trophy-#10618-14.66 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Baracuda Match-#10632-21.14 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Baracuda Match-#02187-21.14 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Crosman Premier Dome-14.13 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=? (this can is 5-6 yrs old)
Crosman Premier Dome-14.13 gr-6B DNC/5b cut=BHN=7/8 (new can just bought this yr)
Skenco
NewBoy HP-20.3 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Newboy Jr-20.3 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Ultra Shock HP-16.66 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Ruger Super Point-16.80 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Gamo
Platium PBA-9.7 gr-2B DNC/B cut=BHN=13
Red Fire Poly Tip-15.4 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Beeman (these pellets are at least 20+ yrs old)
Silver Bear HP-#3040-12.3 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Silver Sting PT-#3025-15.4 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Lazer Dome-#3100-13.4 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Silver Arrow PT-#3088-16.5 gr-6B DNC/5B cut-BHN=7/8
Crow Mag HP-#3002-18.2 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Kodiak Dome-21.14 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Benjaman Sampler Pack
Dome Mag-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Dome HP-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Pointed-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Dome-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
JSB Sampler pack
Straton PT-15.9 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Jumbo RS Dome-13.4 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Jumbo Monster-25.4 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Heavy-18.1 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Wayne 52
Sent me a sample lot of the NOE pellet/bullets,
he had cast from NOE molds using Roto-Metals pure lead, 99.9 %,
I used the same testing techniques as the OEM pellets,
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.6 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN = 4- Shiny colored pellets
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.1 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN= 4- Dull colored pellets
NOE-217-30-FN BT-22 cal-av weight=30.0 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut=BHN =4- Shiny colored bullets
17 Cal
Crosman Premier HP-7.9 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8 (new can just bought this yr)
Gamo
Whisper-10.5 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Tomahawk-7.8 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
25 Caliber
Beeman (these pellets are at least 20 yrs+ old)
Silver Arrow-#3008-24.2 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Crow Mag HP-#3003-25.6 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Pencil Hardness -vs- Brinell Hardness of lead alloys
Pencil # BHN # Alloy
8B....?
7B....4
6B....4-5...Pure Lead-sheet Lead-Lead Wire
5B....7-8...40/1 Lead-Tin = Plummers Lead
4B....9......25/1 Lead-Tin
3B....10....20/1 Lead-Tin = Clip on Wheel Weights
2B....11-12.Range Scrap-Air cooled Wheel Weights
B......13...Quenched Range Scrap/WW+2% Tin
HB....14-15..Lyman #2 Alloy/1-1 Linotype Lead
F.......16-18..Lyman #2 Alloy Quenched - Commerical cast bullets
HB....20-22..50/50 Linotype/Wheel Weights
2H....26-28..Quenched Wheel Weights/Monotype
Here is a chart to use: (post# 2 for the chart)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing)
Your thoughts or suggestions.............
I hope others will follow along and provide more info/results, for all to use...............
Tia,
Don
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Jim
Thank you for the info,
that method seems to fall inline with the info that posted on the Cast Boolits forum,
I am wondering if a sharpened pencil lead, pointed with a small dia flat face, would provide the reliable results,
as compared with a full dia, flat faced point?
Since I have all the pellets/and set up still on the table, I may retest to see if the results change etc.
I found in my above test of the pellets, that several pellets tested, would mark and cut with the 7B pencil etc.
So that would indicate that the tested lead was closer to very pure lead?
There is a member of the CB forum that will test a lead sample for exchange of 1# of lead, per sample,
I have contacted him to find out the info need for test samples etc.
I am curious of the differences between pure lead samples, I do not have the experience or training,
to know these differences, on how a very small % of trace elements changes the hardness etc.
One item of interest, I found out thru pellet testing is that Crosman changed their hardness of their pellets,
I have been chasing my tail using those (newer) pellets, the older OEm pellets were shooting very good in "Leakin Lena",
out to 40 yds with the QB 79 OEM bbl, changed to the newer OEM (harder) Crosmans and LL turned into a scatter gun,
and I did not change anything else, using the tethered tank, for starling sniping etc.
Now that I have a approximate hardness of the OLD Crosmans, I'll find another OEM pellet that is the same range,
and get as close as I can get to pellet weight to see the results with LL, that should give me the info needed etc.
I am hoping that when my pellet casting equipment is finished, and I start casting again,
I'll find a good lead harness that is close or matches the old CM's, in accuracy levels,
I know that there will be a weight difference from the NOE molds, but I can re tune LL for that.
Tia,
Don
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I am not surprised that Crosman are pretty hard, and Benjamin also, plus I have observed that Gamo are usually pretty hard.... For the most part JSBs are dead soft, I always took them for pure lead.... Beeman are usually quite hard as well.... What shocks me is that the H&N pellets you tested were quite soft, yet the Beeman are hard, I usually found them to be identical.... I wonder if H&N are now using a softer lead for their own production than they used to?....
Bob
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Thanks Bob
What really surprised me was the Gamo Platinum at 13 BHN hardness?
These pellets did NOT shoot accurately, for my 79. (I wonder why? LOL)
I am in the process of redoing the pencil lead shape to see if the results are the same, since there is 2 ways of doing the tips etc.
On my sharp pointed lead tips, there was very small tip dia, approximately .030" in dia, that was sanded flat/square with a fine finger nail board.
I tried to keep the same point dia thru out the test, on the softer pencil leads, some of the tips were slightly larger in dia,
due to the softness of the lead etc.
I'll post the results to what I find, good, bad or otherwise.
I'll have some cast pellets coming and will test them also.
Would a very small % of trace elements in pure lead, change the hardness to a great amount, as to the hardness ratings when pencil testing?
I am referring to Roto-Metal pure lead that they list as follows,
I did find out the BHN of their pure lead is 5, for the Brinell Hardness scale of 99.9% Lead,
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
Their Pure Lead percentage,
ELEMENTS
Lead (Pb) 99.9241
Tin (Sn) <0.0001
Antimony (Sb) 0.0237
Copper (Cu) 0.0232
Arsenic (As) 0.0002
Bismuth (Bi) 0.0232
Silver (Ag) 0.0027
Nickel (Ni) 0.0004
Zinc (Zn) 0.0001
Iron (Fe) <0.0001
Cadmium (Cd) <0.0001
Other Sb+Sn+As 0.0239
IMHO,
and what little I know about lead, I don't think, I could find a more purer form of lead, within my pay grade. LOL
I am also surprised that some of the softer pellets could be cut with the 7B pencil,
which leaves a lingering doubt about that hardness and or testing method/results etc
I am scratching my head wondering, now. :-\
Tia,
Don
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Don those results you got for the hardness test are very interesting indeed. When I send you those pellets I'll try including the very shiny ones which were cast in warmer weather and the dark ones which were cast in the high 30's outside on my back porch. I suspect the dark ones will be a tad bit harder. I also expect that hardness doesn't go deep if it even comes out testing harder.
My pellets right now are all coming from the same 58lb split ingot of 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals.
The tins that I've been shooting from are mixed with both batches dark/shiny pellets and I find no difference in the way they're shooting out of my Airmax Dominator which is extremely accurate with them. Yesterday morning I shot a fox squirrel with one at 50 yards through a very small window of sight through my scope on 12X, the pellet entered right where I was aiming (high right shoulder) and it exited just below her left eye.
-
One thing to keep in mind, lead becomes softer when it is "worked". So when a pellet is measured for hardness it is almost impossible to tell composition. It will depend more on the manufacturing process than the composition
-
A guy at cast boolits sent some Crosman and Daisy and RWS off to have composition analyzed... in 2016
His results..from a guy there that goes by BNE that uses an X-ray method...
Crosman Premier and Copperhead-99% Pb & 1% Sb
RWS and Daisy Premium-100% Pb
..?
-
Thanks Kirby
I know about BNE, waiting for a reply back from him, as I want some samples tested for makeup,
I am hoping that pellets can be checked via X-ray machine etc.
I know from my OEM pellets by Crosman, that there is a difference in the makeup of the lead used,
you can see and feel the differences between the OLD ones and the newer ones.
I checked the cans and cannot find any info that is different, ie; lot #, codes etc
as Crosman doesn't have that info on their cans, that I am aware of........
I am hunting up a place where I can buy the purest lead possible,
so I can obtain a sample for testing with the softer pencils, just to have the info available.
IMHO
I would believe that if we had a listing of the pellets in each cal, with known hardness, shot with xyz fps,
from what ever AR, at whatever psi levels etc, might prove useful for those that are following along,
as I was kinda baffled when I first started with LL (79).
As I know now, that when I first started shooting, I was pulling my hair out, the OLD CM shot very accurately,
when I changed to the new ones, accuracy went into the toilet, without changing anything except the different cans of pellets,
now I found out about the hardness, and I'll find or cast for this range of hardness, for the best accuracy possible.
Just another level of the Dark Rabbit Hole............lol
Tia,
Don
-
One thing I am going to do is, order a bar of pure lead from Roto-metals,
and check the hardness as shipped, then melt sample, test the hardness,
then cast some pellets and check those pellets for hardness,
to see if there is a hardness change afterwards.
And another thing I am wondering about is, is there a difference in hardness,
from just using the OEM pellets as in the can, and filing a clean flat spot to test the hardness,
as it is unknown what the OEM coating of the pellets as made.
I know lead can get softer or harder after a certain time level etc.
Tia,
Don
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From what I have read lead/tin alloys soften with age... and with even more age (years) lead/tin/antimony soften also after an initial phase of hardening... but not sure about the second just what I have been told by a few over the years...
Have heard about guys heat treating for annealing (cool slowly) not just to harden(quenching water dropping) with the Sb alloys to soften... so theoretically you can soften the CPHP and then send them out within a day two or so and see if there is any effect... the lower the Sb the slower it hardens...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107059-Annealing-lead-bullets (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107059-Annealing-lead-bullets)
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Sb is Antimony.... I doubt any pellets use that....
Bob
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Hi Bob see reply 57...
This is the Inet so all test/statements should be questioned... but..? this is also been said by more than one...
Oh and here is another pencil test that showed the crosmans .177 equivielent to 25 :1 ...9bhn... after melting down an empty pellet trap...
so some confirmation on the BHN of the Benji pellets...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94782-Airgun-pellets-Pure-lead (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94782-Airgun-pellets-Pure-lead)
I think Michael Thomas said he read that the crosman uses Sb back in a 2013 thread... and that caused me to do a search...
BB Pelletier said the entire line uses Sb but do not know his source... tenth paragraph...
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/02/crosman-pellets-they-werent-always-premiers/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/02/crosman-pellets-they-werent-always-premiers/)
finally found the thread that talks about the xray test...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313749-Air-Rifle-pellet-XRF-test (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313749-Air-Rifle-pellet-XRF-test)
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I guess that makes sense.... Crosman pellets, in my experience, are about the hardest of all.... You can make a BHN 9 pellet cheaper using Sb than using Sn, because you use less Antimony for the same hardness than you do Tin.... 1% Sb or 4% Sn end up about the same BHN....
Of course if you are casting, there is absolutely no question which is better, the Tin flows better and stays brighter over many years....
Regarding lead changing hardness over time, it appears that eventually a lead alloy wants to go back to the annealed (as cast) state of the raw alloy.... Hardening by quenching works for a while (likely for longer than you will store them)…. Antimony when quenched gets harder, I'm not sure the same applies to Tin, or to pure lead.... Since I have no interest in hardening, or using Antimony, I really pay little attention to trying to "modify" the hardness.... I want the softest alloy that will fill mold details well.... which means pure lead with a small amount of tin.... 1-2.5% works for me.... which is BHN 6-8....
Realistically, since commercial pellets range from BHN 5-9, and they all work fine (different guns prefer different pellets), I figure if we stay within that range of hardness, we should be OK....
Bob
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Question for those of us following along.
I have found a couple of sites that also list the hardness of pure lead 99.99 range as 4 BHN,
and from my limited testing of the pellets I have, there were several that would cut with the 7B pencil.
Could the hardness test be adjusted to have those very soft pellets into the 4 BHN range, that cut with the 7B pencil,
and then have the 6B pencil range listed as 5 BHN 99.9 range of pure lead.
Since the alloy used of these very soft pellets is a SWAG etc.
Your thoughts or suggestions.....
Tia,
Don
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Don, I have a feeling that the reason the 6B pencil is listed as correct for "pure lead" is that nobody tried a 7B or 8B, so the chart stopped there.... Remember that the common set of Staedler pencils is 6B to 6H, you need the "soft" set to go from 8B to 2H.... I just don't think any of the PB shooters bothered to make the distinction between 6B and softer than 6B.... Just my thoughts....
I don't think you can definitely say that a 6B is 5 BHN and not 6 BHN, or that a 7B is 4 BHN and not 5 BHN, without simultaneously using a "proper" calibrated BHN indenting tester on the SAME sample of lead.... In reality, we don't care what the BNH number is.... only if you can scratch it with a 7B or a 6B, right?....
Bob
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Well I can see that Maybe a non-choked polygonal barrel could benefit from a harder alloy... My first pour for the BBT 30g .22 was with half reclaimed Crosman pellets 4-5% tin and the rest 99.99 PB... It was for a Crosman .22 barrel that looked like it had the button run thru twice, almost looked like a poly barrel and did have very little rifling height... I figured the hardness would be best to prevent it from stripping past the rifling... I did not think that 1/4 of 1 % Sb would do much... was just for the luck of using crosman pellet lead in a crosman barrel in my first pour... they did very well considering what they were being sent out of at about 550 fps... Nice and stable out to the 50 yards I tried them out to... so they did grip the shallow rifling...
well I did save and check some later and I do think maybe they did grow a bit after a few months very little though so it is hard to be sure... like .0001-0002...and I had poured them hot at a quick pace in an aluminum mold...
so it does make me wonder if maybe still keep ~1% tin for flow out and got to some (1-3%)antimony for size... but only if still dropping a bit small for a given barrel and having tried tin with the coolest mold and melt temp possible... also Brass likes to tin up with tin oxides so maybe using Sb with them would avoid that...
I also have a XL 725 Barrel that I poured some of the 5% tin/trace SB for and the 40g .25 BBT are just a small hair to little... I did pour those hot tho... Have not done much since cause of some health issues so do need to try a cooler melt... but some Sb and less tin may be an option rather than buying the larger 40G BBT mold also...
Oh also Shane in the below thread is pouring the BBT pellets with pure lead and they are dropping small... maybe you could weigh in if you know if Al designed the mold for a tinned alloy...and if so how much...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150474.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150474.0)
Also I do think that the .22lr alloy is germane to this conversation about hardness especially if running .22lr .22 hornet or such barrels and near the same fpe... and from what I have read they also use Sb in varying amounts... and good to know if you have an indoor range near that has a lot of .22lr used...or you send alot of .22lr out into traps yourself...possible lead source..? Also maybe now that we are casting pellets some barrels like the RWS 52 in the below pic(would be cool barrel to try on a pcp) might like a harder alloy..? Maybe not but fun experiment.. ;)
was curious and searched just before I picked up my first mold... what is cool about this thread is it talks about using specific gravity as a clue for figuring out possible alloying agent... mix that and quenched hardness..?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12186-Rimfire-bullet-alloy (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12186-Rimfire-bullet-alloy)
more on .22 alloy
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117546-Alloy-in-22LR-lead (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117546-Alloy-in-22LR-lead)
I do think for almost all a 1-2% tin alloy is best but just wanted to throw out some food for thought... oh the pic is from ToJung2die...
In the end on hardness testing, I think is not how accurate compared to a lab result... it will be how consistent your results with your method...
in the below article the conclusion is the same for some of the testers you can get such as the Lee etc...
http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm#Lee (http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm#Lee)
while none of this is really needed when you can just buy an alloy from a reliable vendor such as Rotometals... I do like that it may help with my stash of found fishing weights, plumbers lead, WW and etc... plus I just find it stimulating to learn new stuff...
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Kirby
That is one weird rifling pattern in that RWS 52 bbl, looks like they forgot to do something, to make it complete....... :o
The lands look so large for the tiny grooves etc. Are they all like this? Not any experience with that model.
Still reading several of those pages on the LASC site, some pretty good info on the lead testers,
that they tested, makes you wonder about the end results etc.
One good thing about starting casting with pure soft lead, you can always make it harder as needed,
just can't go back the other way, to make it softer.......... ;)
Thanks,
Don
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Well I have never owned a springer but that pic made me look for other Diana/RWS pics... below attached is a Diana 25 pic and here is a link to the pics some of the Diana 27...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Diana+27+rifling&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CTJaC8sDBsyPIjgSk8u7QB3iAoYwCJKU9lUykQ9tilVxMHeBQOd7LUhVzHnuO8rhqIREFDJwAGtIOIpQMmKydZDxWCoSCRKTy7tAHeICEeZIsVDMjlh9KhIJhjAIkpT2VTIRJ5Yk6J3bPJsqEgmRD22KVXEwdxEQKlWqGlyljyoSCYFA53stSFXMEWEb-BgqXjqvKhIJee47yuGohEQRRZQjUmPserAqEgkUMnAAa0g4ihH9W3-H8aOnSSoSCVAyYrJ1kPFYEX5zGUaOK35R&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP9tve9fLeAhXVIjQIHXx6CwMQ9C96BAgBEBg&biw=1366&bih=626&dpr=1#imgrc=rF17K2m34fNeMM: (https://www.google.com/search?q=Diana+27+rifling&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CTJaC8sDBsyPIjgSk8u7QB3iAoYwCJKU9lUykQ9tilVxMHeBQOd7LUhVzHnuO8rhqIREFDJwAGtIOIpQMmKydZDxWCoSCRKTy7tAHeICEeZIsVDMjlh9KhIJhjAIkpT2VTIRJ5Yk6J3bPJsqEgmRD22KVXEwdxEQKlWqGlyljyoSCYFA53stSFXMEWEb-BgqXjqvKhIJee47yuGohEQRRZQjUmPserAqEgkUMnAAa0g4ihH9W3-H8aOnSSoSCVAyYrJ1kPFYEX5zGUaOK35R&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP9tve9fLeAhXVIjQIHXx6CwMQ9C96BAgBEBg&biw=1366&bih=626&dpr=1#imgrc=rF17K2m34fNeMM:)
So the old rifling did not have such wide lands with the narrow grooves... but here is a link that has a RWS 34P pic and it does have the wide lands...So it may be a RWS thing...
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/06/checking-out-a-diana-rws-34p-part-2/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/06/checking-out-a-diana-rws-34p-part-2/)
also below is a pic of HW 100 rifling which is close to being like some .22lr rifling... a lot of groove and small lands....
Here is a link to a thread about the Smooth twist barrels...which are probably not going to like harder cast pellets...
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/getting-techbarrel-twist-ratios-stabilizing-a-pellet-environmental-variables/ (https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/getting-techbarrel-twist-ratios-stabilizing-a-pellet-environmental-variables/)
Point is I do think casting with differing alloys may in some barrels pay off...
and you can water down a hard alloy with a lot of 99.99 lead... or use the hard alloy with 99.99 pb to come up with an in between alloy...
I just look at the rifling and try to imagine it at different fpe levels for 5-100fpe with different pellets/boolits that have differing contact patch sizes etc....and think what would it like best... just wish I had the $$$ to do all the experiments...
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I can not resist an interesting factoid... the RWS rifling examples follow after the rifling favored by one Henry Deringer... I know of this because my middle name is Lincoln as is my grandfathers and a couple other forefathers...
click on pic and you can see muzzle just enough...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Deringer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Deringer)
same Derringer (modern mispelling)
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2001/schehl.htm (https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2001/schehl.htm)
Deringer rifle
http://weaponsman.com/?p=27861 (http://weaponsman.com/?p=27861)
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If you have drill press try this as it takes some of the angle error out of the test.. Glue a bb or ball bearing to a drill bit..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwijjevlovXeAhUSW60KHYdlDj8QwqsBMAx6BAgbEAs&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwijjevlovXeAhUSW60KHYdlDj8QwqsBMAx6BAgbEAs&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov)
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Bob
Thanks for the info.
For my end of hunting the best lead possible, I believe that a 7B pencil is providing useful info for me.
It appears that the 7B pencil works for the very soft side of lead hardness.
I just found another reference to the hardness of lead, using the pencil set,
see info here,
Hardness Reference
Pencil BHN Common Alloys
7B 4 pure & sheet lead
6B 5 lead wire
5B 7-8 40:1 Remington Golden Bullet 22LR
4B 9 25:1 Many types of 22LR
3B 10 20:1 WW,
2B 11-12 Range Scrap
B 13
HB 14-15 Lyman #2, 1:1 Linotype
F 16-18 Commercial cast bullets
H 20-22 linotype/WW, linotype
2H 26-28 Monotype, Quench WW
I added this info just to have a more complete range for all the pencils etc.
Thank you,
Don
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i have always used 6b pencils for airgun hunting lead verification.
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Don all the cast pellets I've been getting from the 99.9% pure pig split ingot mushroom really good in the right stuff, I think those samples that I sent you will test really soft IMO. One of these days I'll get the stuff to make up some of the genuine balistic Jell, I was looking at the plastic containers at Dollar General and some of them would make great molds for it.
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Wayne
Thank you, you Enabler..... ;D ;)
The pony express just made a mad dash by here and threw off the goods. LOL
I post the info of the testing, from all of them tomorrow,
got to get the phone working, had a lite snow fall and it's on the blink now.
I just got an email that my 4 cavity Brass 217-24 mold and sizing dies is being shipped from NOE. ;D
Just have to finish the little welding on the pot now.
Then learn........... how to cast those pellets............
Tia,
Don
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Thanks John
I am attempting to find a sample of the purest lead possible, no luck so far, :'(
so I can see the difference between the pencils, and gain so more info etc..
Tia,
Don
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You can get 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals. Buy five pounds for fourteen bucks, do your test then melt it down into thousands of pellets.
https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/ (https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/)
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How pure do you want it? (99.99%) ;)
https://www.lmine.com/lead-c-1_7_89/premium-grade-lead-foil-usa-p-3806.html (https://www.lmine.com/lead-c-1_7_89/premium-grade-lead-foil-usa-p-3806.html)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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You can get 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals. Buy five pounds for fourteen bucks, do your test then melt it down into thousands of pellets.
https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/ (https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/)
I bought my last lead from there in a split pig ingot that weighed 58lbs, I've still got probably ten pounds of the first half left, it goes a long long way when molding the .22's and .25's ;D
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Guys
Here is some more info on some tested pellets/bullets, sent in too test for hardness.
Wayne 52
Sent me a sample lot of the NOE pellet/bullets,
he had cast from NOE molds using Roto-Metals pure lead, 99.9 %,
I used the same testing techniques as the above OEM pellets,
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.6 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN = 4- Shiny colored pellets
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.1 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN= 4- Dull colored pellets
NOE-217-30-FN BT-22 cal-av weight=30.0 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut=BHN =4- Shiny colored bullets
I will add these pellets/info to the master list of pellets/bullets started on pg 3, post #51
Wayne
Thank you for your time and trouble for adding to the master list,
It is greatly appreciated.....
Tia,
Don
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Jim
Thank you for the info,
OUCH!
They must think that lead is pure Gold at 15.00+ per lb.
The average price per LB of lead was 89 cents+, the last time I checked.
I think, I'll just stick to 99.9 % pure, at least that is in my pay grade......... ;D
unless I can find a lot cheaper sample.
Tia,
Don
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Thanks Don !!! I know now that they're nice and soft for sure ;D
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Thanks Wayne
Glad, I could help and provide some more info for our site, on the casting/hardness end.
I'll probably get a stick/pig of that 99.9% lead from Roto-metals to start with.
Have lots of lead around here, but of unknown hardness at this time, too many irons in the fire,
and too short on day lite times, but will get to the testing ASAP. ::)
Back to the shop........
Tia,
Don
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Don I know that the split pig ingot is about the same price now as back when I bought mine in July.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1761/42255790505_15624c2ae1_b.jpg)
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A very informative thread...Thanks Don!
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A very informative thread...Thanks Don! I ordered the 40:1 lead from Rotometals thanks to what I learned in this thread.
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Trying to pin this topic ??? don't know if it really worked or not.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47822242682_fc1cacb466_o.jpg)
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Thanks for making it a sticky, Wayne.... 8)
Bob
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Thanks Bob I thought it would be handy pinned so I went through admin and requested it, he agreed that it was worthy of being pinned. I had seen where you posted the link to it in another topic plus there were other times when I wanted to revisit the thread because of the good info in it.
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I'll be reading through this soon my self.
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Teemu
I also checked out some of the OEM lead testers, way above my pay scale, for the amount of use it will get. LOL
I'll post what I find about the hardness tests, as soon as the pencils get here, which should be today.
I am very curious to see the results of the testing, and I'll do all the OEM pellets I have on hand.
I know I have some pure lead in the shop somewhere, I just have to find it. ;)
I have a couple of 20mm ammo cans full of different lead, from WW to flat sheets, of unknown type/hardness's,
that I can test also, so I can get some experience, I hope......
More later,
Tia,
Don
Melt down some pellets or some of the lead you want to test. Form small and I mean small, thin ingots, Find a heat treating company and find out what they would charge to test 2 such lead ingots. They may need a brinell test or possibly durometer. There is a outfit in Oshkosh and Chicago other wise I couldn't say. I can't see why Crosman would alloy their lead with antimony, It's quite expensive. When I was working in the Machine Trades at Western Electric the classified it as a semi precious metal. In anay case Babbitt would likely do the job nicely and a lot cheaper.