Very thorough and interesting analyses, Ron, THANKS!One more thing is still pending:Endurance comparison.Over a few thousands of shots, you MAY discover that the Vortek now equals the Maccari in output.While springs are cheap and they are fairly easy to replace in the Vortek kits, it is still a source of long term lack of consistency.To ME, the most valuable datum was the OD of the new PG3 springs. It clearly shows that steel is a better material for the outside guide, as it allows a slightly larger OD of the springs, and THIS is huge because stresses inside the steel in the springs go up with the CUBE (third power) of the OD.To put it in numbers:If spring "A" has an OD of 1.00and spring "B" is built from identical steel and with the same methods, but the OD is 1.05 (that is 5% difference)then the internal stresses (strains) in spring "B" will be 13.6% lower.This will lead to lower fatigue and a longer life.0.865" is substantially better than older OD's. Still not 0.890", but it is better.I may need to test the new Vortek kits, I can always forge closed / square properly the end of the spring, and lathe off the grooves to have a "normal" top-hat/spring end interface.;-)THANKS!HM
Hi Ron,Can you remember how much preload the 29 coil Vortek spring had when making 18 - 19 ft. lb. in the R1?Just trying to get a handle on the energy efficiency of what we in the UK call FAC rifles.Thanks,Jim
Hi JimToday I removed the JM kit and I measured 1.375" of preload. It would be fully set by now.I reinstalled the PG4 kit with the 29 coil spring. It had exactly 1" of preload. Velocities with the 29 coil PG4 kitJSB Exact 13.81 act weight 777 = 18.51 fpeH&N FTT 11.73 act weight 860 = 19.24 fpeThe gun shoots just as nicely at these power levels so I will leave it with this package.Jim another thing you may find interesting is the same gun and kit with a different 20 caliber barrel made 18.05 fpe with JSBs and 19.04 fpe. I slugged that barrel and it was very loose in the middle and the choke was ridiculously tight. Weihrauch replaced the barrel under warranty. What I find most interesting is the shot cycle is considerably nicer with the new barrel. I believe the loose barrel fit caused some pressure bypass making for some power loss and piston slam. I'm also happy the power disparity between the H&N FTT and JSB Exact has closed up a little. This piston seal is relatively new so I believe there still may be some free power increase as the gun loosens up.Be well Ron
Hi RonnThanks for the information. By my reckoning, the spring is potentially making 49 ft. lb. available to the piston, so the energy efficiency is circa 37%, about the same ball park, as it happens, as a sub-12 ft.lb. HW80.The spring places a force of 285 lbf on the piston at release, and the preload force is 84.7 lbf. Your .20 barrel is interesting. I re-barrelled an HW95 breech block, and found that the rear of the HW barrel had straight knurls pressed into it, and either this, or the subsequent swaging of the barrel into the block, created a tight spot. With the rest of the barrel having a wider diameter, a choke becomes essential.Cheers,Jim
Thanks for the information Jim. I'm familiar with the breech area creating a choke on the Weihrauchs as well as end choke. The last barrel was considerably looser than normal and about the last 2" before the end choke the pellet would literally fall through. Then the end choke was so tight you nearly had to pound the pellet out. Most if not all of the Weihrauch barrels I've checked are snug through the breech block, drop to light drag in the middle and snug again at the end choke. The pellet should stay engaged with the rifling the whole way. It didn't on my last 20 caliber barrel.I have a new issue maybe you can help me with? It seems the additional power has created a lock up/vertical dispersion. I honed the lock up chisel bore and it slides freely but it doesn't seem to hold the barrel in place strong enough. I've tried the pivot tension from tight to loose and it doesn't hold vertically. There's no vertical free play in the breech but you can feel it come off lock if you wrap your hand around the breech and move the barrel up and down. It's not much but it affects the accuracy big time.I'm wondering if the wedge is fully extended before applying enough pressure to hold the lock position. I'm considering cutting back the stop wall on the chisel detent a few thousandths to alow it extend I tiny bit more.Any help would be greatly appreciatedThanksRon
Quote from: Bayman on June 15, 2022, 04:13:29 PMThanks for the information Jim. I'm familiar with the breech area creating a choke on the Weihrauchs as well as end choke. The last barrel was considerably looser than normal and about the last 2" before the end choke the pellet would literally fall through. Then the end choke was so tight you nearly had to pound the pellet out. Most if not all of the Weihrauch barrels I've checked are snug through the breech block, drop to light drag in the middle and snug again at the end choke. The pellet should stay engaged with the rifling the whole way. It didn't on my last 20 caliber barrel.I have a new issue maybe you can help me with? It seems the additional power has created a lock up/vertical dispersion. I honed the lock up chisel bore and it slides freely but it doesn't seem to hold the barrel in place strong enough. I've tried the pivot tension from tight to loose and it doesn't hold vertically. There's no vertical free play in the breech but you can feel it come off lock if you wrap your hand around the breech and move the barrel up and down. It's not much but it affects the accuracy big time.I'm wondering if the wedge is fully extended before applying enough pressure to hold the lock position. I'm considering cutting back the stop wall on the chisel detent a few thousandths to alow it extend I tiny bit more.Any help would be greatly appreciatedThanksRonThe only similar problem I've encountered with an HW break barrel, Ron, was with my 1979 HW50 (25mm cylinder) which I have owned from new. After about 25 years of heavy usage, the breech started to open a fraction as the recoil turned to surge, and it turned out to be a combination of wear in the latch and fatigue of its spring. Renewing both cured the problem.I would try replacing the latch spring as a first step. I suspect the latch and chisel detent will be case hardened, and I would be wary to reprofiling either.
Yesterday I received my first Air Rifle Headquarters kit. These kits have a great reputation so I wanted to try one on my 20 caliber R1. I was hoping that I'd see better power and less difference in power between the 11.42 H&N FTTs and 13.73 JSB Exact The gun has had a Vortek PG4 kit in it for a while. The Vortek spring uses 0.148" wire wound to a OD of 0.865". The PG4 kit normally comes with a 26.5 coil spring that's open on both ends. I prefer closed spring ends so I had my kit made with the trigger end closed and a total of 27 coils.Pluses - smooth operation when completed. It also has very little preload so they're easily installed without a spring compressor.Minuses - The cocking shoe or foot on some guns will gouge the steel outter guide. This is remedied by grinding and polishing the cocking shoe or foot for clearance. This doesn't happen on every gun but it happens enough it's a pain in the you know what.My impressions of the Macarri kit is it looks well made. The guides are snug but not too tight. It came with a small amount of tar. The spring uses 0.136" wire and it's wound to an OD of 0.830". The spring has quite a bit more preload. I had a hard time getting the gun together without a spring compressor. The preload will lessen some once the spring takes a set.Pluses - smooth operation and straightforward installation.Minuses - you'll need a spring compressor.PowerVortek JSB Exact (act weight 13.81) 743 fps = 16.92 fpe H&N FTT (act weight 11.81). 811 fps = 17.24 fpeJM Power kit JSB Exact (act weight 13.81) 708fps = 15.37 fpe H&N FTT (act weight 11.81). 787fps = 16.24 fpeThe ARH website says that you'll be disappointed if you're a first round chronographer and the kit needs time to break in. I'm not sure what needs to break in. The kit clearances aren't that tight. I'll give it some time to break in and I'll update this thread of anything changes.As far as comparing the two kits behavior, they both shoot nicely with no twang or buzz. The gun cocks easier with the JM kit an shoots a little smoother. It should, it's making less power by using a thinner wire spring with narrower diameter. It makes a nice shooting R1 but as of now it's making less power than my R9 in the same caliber with a Vortek kit.Overall my experience with the ARH kit was good. It was less problematic to install than the Vortek steel kits. I'm hoping power from the JM kit eventually equals the Vortek. Time will tell.
Quote from: Bayman on June 14, 2022, 01:49:03 PMYesterday I received my first Air Rifle Headquarters kit. These kits have a great reputation so I wanted to try one on my 20 caliber R1. I was hoping that I'd see better power and less difference in power between the 11.42 H&N FTTs and 13.73 JSB Exact The gun has had a Vortek PG4 kit in it for a while. The Vortek spring uses 0.148" wire wound to a OD of 0.865". The PG4 kit normally comes with a 26.5 coil spring that's open on both ends. I prefer closed spring ends so I had my kit made with the trigger end closed and a total of 27 coils.Pluses - smooth operation when completed. It also has very little preload so they're easily installed without a spring compressor.Minuses - The cocking shoe or foot on some guns will gouge the steel outter guide. This is remedied by grinding and polishing the cocking shoe or foot for clearance. This doesn't happen on every gun but it happens enough it's a pain in the you know what.My impressions of the Macarri kit is it looks well made. The guides are snug but not too tight. It came with a small amount of tar. The spring uses 0.136" wire and it's wound to an OD of 0.830". The spring has quite a bit more preload. I had a hard time getting the gun together without a spring compressor. The preload will lessen some once the spring takes a set.Pluses - smooth operation and straightforward installation.Minuses - you'll need a spring compressor.PowerVortek JSB Exact (act weight 13.81) 743 fps = 16.92 fpe H&N FTT (act weight 11.81). 811 fps = 17.24 fpeJM Power kit JSB Exact (act weight 13.81) 708fps = 15.37 fpe H&N FTT (act weight 11.81). 787fps = 16.24 fpeThe ARH website says that you'll be disappointed if you're a first round chronographer and the kit needs time to break in. I'm not sure what needs to break in. The kit clearances aren't that tight. I'll give it some time to break in and I'll update this thread of anything changes.As far as comparing the two kits behavior, they both shoot nicely with no twang or buzz. The gun cocks easier with the JM kit an shoots a little smoother. It should, it's making less power by using a thinner wire spring with narrower diameter. It makes a nice shooting R1 but as of now it's making less power than my R9 in the same caliber with a Vortek kit.Overall my experience with the ARH kit was good. It was less problematic to install than the Vortek steel kits. I'm hoping power from the JM kit eventually equals the Vortek. Time will tell.Hey Ron,I read your comparison showing the ARH kit at a pretty low FPE relative to what my .20 caliber HW80 (ARH R1 spring only).Keep in mind this spring was purchased about 5 years ago as Jim's R1 after market spring for $20. I've even clipped two coils as it was a bit unruly beforehand.Took 3 shots today with 13.73 JSB's: 790, 799 and 794 FPS; this is roughly 19+ FPE.I don't know if it's the spring, the gun or combination of the two, but my HW80S has always been a monster shooter. The firing cycle is fairly abrupt, but the gun is so accurate ... I don't care. I think I got really lucky with this gun .I really don't have an axe to grind on the ARH vs. Vortek debate - as I prefer the Vortek springs in my .20 caliber R9 and R10.I have ARH springs (only) in every other Weihrauch I've tuned. Kirk
Yeah Ron, I've been mostly shooting and tuning my two RAW HM1000xLRT's for the last couple of years. The tune are particularly tricky using pellets, slugs and different regulator set points - lots to learn and shoot well at 100 yards. Besides today, last time I shot my Springer's was last August while camping. I've been reading some German posts, but I usually don't think you guys need my opinion much anymore as there's many experienced shooters here . I honestly don't remember the spring size (some of my posts from 2016 or 2017 likely would show it), also I usually make my top-hats thick-er to space the spring some, plus I use the OEM piston seal instead of JM which tend to be oversized. I think the compression chamber in my HW80S fits the piston seal very nicely.
Quote from: SpiralGroove on June 15, 2022, 09:00:43 PMYeah Ron, I've been mostly shooting and tuning my two RAW HM1000xLRT's for the last couple of years. The tune are particularly tricky using pellets, slugs and different regulator set points - lots to learn and shoot well at 100 yards. Besides today, last time I shot my Springer's was last August while camping. I've been reading some German posts, but I usually don't think you guys need my opinion much anymore as there's many experienced shooters here . I honestly don't remember the spring size (some of my posts from 2016 or 2017 likely would show it), also I usually make my top-hats thick-er to space the spring some, plus I use the OEM piston seal instead of JM which tend to be oversized. I think the compression chamber in my HW80S fits the piston seal very nicely.I'm glad you're doing well. It was good hearing from you.Stay well.Ron
Close to clutching at straws here, Ron, but could the (presumably new) breech seal be standing too proud of the breech face and reducing detent/latch overlap?
One further point, Ron, is that the factory export spring rate is circa 55 lbf/in, against yours nearer 63 lbf/in, so the force driving recoil acceleration will be less, and I believe it's the initial recoil acceleration, and consequent rifle rotation around the centre of gravity, that's opening the breech.It may be that the spring you are using is just over the limit of the breech locking capability.
The trick you installing new breech seals is to heat them up! I use a hair dryer that's at least 1500deg on max setting, I heat the seal until its pliable then install it while its hot and close the barrel so it form fits! let it cool then start shooting the rifle!