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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: CharlieDaTuna on September 19, 2011, 10:50:27 PM

Title: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: CharlieDaTuna on September 19, 2011, 10:50:27 PM
NOTE: This has been revised since the original post.

It was suggested that this be pinned temporarily and I think that’s a good idea, maybe for a couple of weeks so most of the members can read it because it is an important safety factor and then Dez and Rocker1 or Gene can edit this part out and place it somewhere else. Probably in the Library.

BALK FIRING

What I’m going to say here should apply to all springer’s and gas rams and would apply to all Co2 and pumper guns as well as PCP’s I should think. It also applies to both single stage as well as two stage triggers. Many of us are aware of the following but I also know that most of people out there that are not and should be. It is an important and critical safety factor.

First the question… “What is balk firing?”   ??? ???

Balk firing is when you start to pull the trigger, change your mind and release the trigger. We all do that on occasion (especially hunters) but there is something that should be realized. You might now unknowingly have created a dangerous condition. What happens is that although the trigger may return to battery, the sear itself does not reset.  :o  :o

There is no springer or gas ram gun that returns the sear to the position where it was prior to pulling of the trigger and the sear starts to move and you need to keep that in mind. If you balk fire and release that trigger, the sear cannot and will not return to its original set position. And you now do not have the slightest idea just how close it is to the edge of release. You might just touch the trigger or bump the gun and it will discharge.  And be aware of this.  The guns can accidently discharge at any time whether the safety is on or not.  :o

  ALWAYS RE-COCK YOUR GUN IF YOU BALK FIRE OR FIRE IT SAFELY INTO THE GROUND

Now then .... a little thought. Do you have any idea of how much pressure there is against surface of the sear that is holding that piston and spring pressure being applied to it?  ??? Depending on the gun, a couple of hundred pounds or more, much more with a magnum gun.   :o :o

And… all of this stored up energy is being held in check by a little metal platform (sear surface contact area) that is in the area of roughly about .060 of an inch high (the moving contact surface retaining or latching on to the piston) and maybe .090 inch thick. This will vary from gun to gun but regardless, the point here is that there is not very much surface area holding that piston and all of its stored energy back. The height factor (or piston release area) does not leave much room for error and it’s this area that is compromised or shortened by balk firing. It might be being held at this point by just a couple of thousandths…. or right on the edge... and it just might let go. :-[ :-[ :'(

 Now the question….. “But why does the sear not reset”?

Do you realize how much return spring pressure that would be required against the opposite side of the sear to "push" the sear back up into place or reset to its original set position when the trigger has been released if bulk fired? Maybe as much as 30-40- lbs. and possibly much more. or possibly more with perfect surfaces and depending on the trigger. And that spring pressure would have to be added to the overall trigger pull weight. Can you imagine the trigger pull weight needed to overcome that??? Maybe close to a 40 lbs. trigger pull.... and again, possibly much more.    :o :o 

Sooo…The pressure of the piston and spring must be relieved before the sear can reset itself and is why you must recock the gun to reset the sear. At that point, when the pressure of the spring is removed, it requires only an ounce or two of spring pressure to reset the sear. ;) ;)

    ALWAYS RE-COCK YOUR GUN  OR FIRE IT SAFELY INTO THE GROUND IF YOU BALK FIRE

Triggers can be very dangerous. For those of you that do not have a thorough understanding of triggers and how they function, you need to be very careful when you work on them.  Changing any angle or geometry of any trigger can lead you to have a dangerous and/or unsafe trigger and can make balk firing even far more dangerous. The trigger release state may be even far more critical and you really need to keep the safety factor in mind and do a lot of testing to be sure that it is safe after working on your trigger. :D

Have fun and safe shooting.  ;)

Thanks all

CDT         

 
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: robert w on October 19, 2011, 04:58:25 PM
great point charlie we all make booboos but you cant call a shot bullet back from any gun of any type even a cheep red ryder
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: supertech77 on October 19, 2011, 08:13:46 PM
great post;i never thought of that.and your absolutely right,
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: ranedouglas on November 18, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
that's good info, charlie.   i have a cometa that the 1st stage is so light that i do this "balk" thing.  it's one of those 'gently squeeze and ease into the shot' triggers.   for the most-part, most springer triggers aren't good enough for me to do that.   i just more-or-less "gun" them lightly.  
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Supaflee on November 29, 2011, 09:09:13 PM
Ahhhh, There have been a few times when with my Gamo-CFX, after aiming at a target for about a minute, my non sighting eye starts to weep like *(&^ . Occasionally it`s done this just a nano second before letting the shot go, and part way through the let-off.I generally look away at something dark and close to where I am, and then line up to take the shot again. I`ve noticed that on these occasions the next time I touch the trigger , whammo, she`s gone, just the way it should be , no creep, no delay, no fatigue. . Now I know why. Maybe the GRT 111  from Bob , which I`ve already ordered , is going to fix the hold,hold,hold,hold, creep ,creep, creep, problem I have with the existing trigger eh . Yesssiree , there`s another problem gonna be gone when it arrives . Cant wait . Supaflee
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: aack73 on November 29, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
good post Bob. ;D
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: MT on December 17, 2011, 12:34:53 PM
Thanks Bob. I had felt the advanced position of the sear under those circumstances. Am I to understand that I can re-cock the gun while still loaded to reset sear? I have a new Nitro Venom .177.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: CharlieDaTuna on December 17, 2011, 12:40:59 PM
Yes, you can recock the gun with or without i tbeing loaded.

CDT
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: MT on December 17, 2011, 01:23:45 PM
Thank you for the quick reply. Just now warm enough outside to try out my new chrony!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: adel152 on December 22, 2011, 09:21:25 PM
Very useful safety information.
Thank you,
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Korak-again on December 31, 2011, 10:43:47 AM
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: CharlieDaTuna on December 31, 2011, 11:30:06 AM
I don't know of that ever happening but that is possible but normally it would not be open far enough if it did let go that it's not going to damage the gun and you should have a grip on the barrel. It would go off the instant the barrel were slapped and before the barrel was hardly moved. It's better to have control if it does let go than to have it go off unexpectedly because it wasn't recocked and reset.

CDT
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Finchlake on December 31, 2011, 11:46:52 AM
Thanks for posting this, it could save someone an injury in the future. Also just installed the GRT-III trigger in my Benjamin Titan  yesterday, installation went well, Love the new trigger.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Mike 4888blues on January 01, 2012, 03:46:47 PM
 :) :)
 I always replace my triggers if need to with a trigger from charlie da tuna,
 always great to learn something new and this makes sense.

 I thought the sear stayed still while the trigger just finally tightened up on its linkage before finally firing, never thought the sear was actually changing positions.   
 great to know, thanks for the info, love this  site!
 thanks charlie
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: WHITEFANG on January 02, 2012, 10:21:05 PM
In this position of balk, even attempting to apply the safety on the guns that have the safety in the trigger guard could result in the gun discharging. My point is on the REM / CROSMAN guns I would not apply the safety till after the re-cock the gun. Correct me if I am wrong. I had a gun that was in the balk position and due to the setting of the trigger, the gun did discharge. I corrected the problem by adjusting the trigger. Very good thread for all of us.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: ranedouglas on February 16, 2012, 01:13:43 AM
some of the others (cometas, for instance) will not cock if you don't pull the trigger all the way through the 2nd stage.   i have experienced this "balking" before.   the gun went off while the barrel was open, bent the barrel, broke the stock...... i know more about the tf 89 now, but it is a terrible way to learn that and i am thankful i didn't get hurt.   i watched a high performance WTM come uncocked on my good buddy, jarred (jed, the guy that makes those ultra-duty spring compressors).   he was holding the barrel, but the but end of the magnum was slightly resting on the seat where he was sitting - about 4-5" away from his crotch.    the butt-end of the stock slammed him in the back of the nuts.   i wished i had THAT on film.    it's probably the worst springer to have that happen w/.   he was unable to talk for about 3 minutes - face turning blood red and i'm trying to ask him what happened.   i though he shot himself.    then he puked.   then tried to walk.    it was about 30 minutes later when i went into the house to check on him and only then could he talk and explain everything.   he still doesn't shoot since then.   he had been drinking beer, got carried away and was cocking and shooting the WTM too fast, and cocking it WAY too hard, slamming the piston into the trigger mechanism.   - Paul D Self.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: border on February 27, 2012, 09:17:16 PM
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
This would be my first concern:  Just how close to sear disengagement is this trigger now?...And would the mere act of slapping the end of the barrel to recock it move the sear enough to disengage?  If so, I don't think just holding on to the barrel would suffice.  Something would get damaged.  Hopefully not me. I don't see any good coming from that.  I think if this happened to me I'd rather just finish the trigger pull while aiming into the dirt or just walking up to the target to finish the trigger movement...pull it through. And if it happens in competition I guess you'd have to try re-cocking the gun...But this just gives me the shivers...In HG shooting this might be almost a "hang-fire" situation where the gun just didn't fire...Always scary and worthy of waiting...waiting...then clearing the line until it goes off!...Smoothed sears don't need a lot of push to let them slide over the edge...I could be wrong but I think I've read where Hatsan Quatro triggers fully re-set if a trigger pull is incomplete but haven't seen it elsewhere. I'd prefer just pulling it through safely and getting it over with. 
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: tracka on March 07, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
Well, I'm new at the air gun thing, but if I have a balk situation, I'll never re-cock it, just fire it off.  Why not?  seems like the easiest and safest thing to do all around.  Tracka
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Powder burner on April 04, 2012, 12:22:41 AM
  thanks, Bob.  i can't believe i didn't know this.  it seems so obvious now that I've read it.  i guess it's one of those things that ya just never think about.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: pappa on April 30, 2012, 07:20:57 PM
Thanks for this, Bob. You have made, me aware of something that I had never even considered and you also have probably saved a lot of us a LOT of trouble and misery with this awareness. In the future, if I don't complete a firing sequence, I'll just fire off into the dirt as someone here suggested.

God bless you for so many great insights!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Plekto on May 01, 2012, 01:51:29 AM
We get very complacent with our "toys" because they are easy to use and very reliable as a rule.  But there are very dangerous forces at play in all of these airguns.  Even something as humble as a 1377 has to be treated with proper safety and respect.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Robirt55 on May 01, 2012, 04:16:40 PM
I am a complete noob to the forums and people here at GTA and am glad you guys left this post stickyed longer than a few weeks.

This is awesome so learn!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Nikoman on May 19, 2012, 02:54:14 PM
This actually happens to me on my RX-1. Occasionally I shoot at paper in the backyard with this beast and sometimes I start to engage the trigger and let off without firing because of my breathing or some other distraction. The trigger literally becomes a hair trigger, the slightest breeze will set the gun off - it's pretty scary actually. I always keep it on target at the pellet trap and shoot if off. This gun has one of the worst triggers (this is just my opinion), I'm sure an adjustment and/or tune would certainly make it better but this one has the most unpredictable trigger break out of all my guns including my powder burners. I find the trigger creep on my RX-1 to be dangerous, it's actually gone off with the slightest touch after letting it off - this is where good firearms safety will keep things in check. One can never be too careful, thanks for writing such an informative post, Bob. I had no idea what the term was for this, now I know ;)
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: AirScopes on July 04, 2012, 08:22:27 AM
I see you mention discharge, and I'd think that would be the best route to go every time. Recocking might work with some or even many guns, but losing one pellet seems worth any safety risk. Into ground or into the air! We had the "well if you are shooting into the air you might kill someone" discussion either here or in the old forum, and pretty much proved that 'up' will do no harm.

But great safety info!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: umpreacher on July 09, 2012, 10:18:07 PM
Thanks Bob. Being new to air guns, this is very helpful and will enable me to avoid a dangerous situation.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Cliff on July 27, 2012, 10:16:58 PM
A good argument for good triggers.
I prefer the breaks-like-an-1/16th-inch-thick-glass-rod trigger feel.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Cliff on August 08, 2012, 07:11:21 PM
Can this happen on a good trigger?
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: CharlieDaTuna on August 08, 2012, 10:13:53 PM
It can happen with almost all triggers, good or bad, but especially springers and gas rams.

CDT
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Jake on August 29, 2012, 09:43:01 AM
Very good info, and something I've never thought about.  I'll be sure to be extra careful.  Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: HeadOfPoland on November 13, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
cringed at the thought of this happening! Yikes! thanks for the warning
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Coachkilla32 on January 31, 2013, 03:36:29 AM
Thanks for this valuable piece of information, being that I'm a newbie this helps a rockhead like myself. I made my son read it also, thanks
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: BrainsB4Beauty on February 19, 2013, 08:01:25 PM
Makes total sense.  I've actually thought about the sear creeping up as I put the pressure on the trigger, and it just never dawned on me to just re-cock.  Major DUH moment when I read the post.  Very good info!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: bbv13 on February 20, 2013, 11:05:51 PM
Thank's I would have never considered any of that without reading this post.

Bryan
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Dave1899 on February 21, 2013, 08:20:00 PM
Thanks Bob, I had no idea this could happen.  Glad I've never had it happen to me but I will always, from now on, discharge into the ground.  They say you learn something every day  ;)
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Swampy on March 26, 2013, 11:03:45 AM
Thanks for the heads up. I have handled guns on a daily basis for most of my life. We sometimes get too comfortable with our ability and that's when bad things happen. I don't know if I ever did this and that is what concerns me. I will definitely keep this in mind with all my weapons. I was a school trained armorer in the Marine Corps and trigger assemblies was an important part of the curriculum. I should know the answer if I ever did this and I don't. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: nate.n on September 01, 2013, 11:30:02 AM
This is not a problem with all spring rifles, for example the hatsan quattro trigger is designed to re engage the sear if the shot is not taken and the trigger is pulled but not fired. So there are some exceptions to the rule
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: GasSpring on November 01, 2013, 11:33:51 AM
You know, I've had this happen to me without ever knowing that it had happened until it was explained to me. (cue sun rising, spotlights crisscrossing in the skyline, etc., etc.)  After years of shooting bows and learning that if the shot just wan't "right" to let the bow down and start over, it (not completing the shot) had become second nature - something I never even thought about.  Then, with the air rifle, resume with the whole process, and get a trigger pull that is measured in puffs of breath and not pounds and ounces.  Just another example of "live and learn, or read GTA and live and learn even more".  ;)
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: avator on November 05, 2013, 12:02:37 PM
Thank You very much, I have experienced the "balk"situation and I always tried to correct the reason for the "balk" in the first place as quickly as possible and take the shot as to not leave the gun in a dangerous condition. My common sence was good enough to warn me that this was not a good thing but, evidently it was not good enough for me to realize I could recock and reset the sear. However, if the sear is only hanging on by the proverbial thread, recocking the gun may be enough of a disturbance to cause the gun to fire. I know that with my Stoeger and my Nitro Venom, I have to "bump" the barrel out of lock position before I can cock it. And I have some really crappy luck. Yeah.. I think I'll just go ahead and take the shot in a safe direction.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Smoke4320 on November 21, 2013, 10:06:09 AM
Thanks for this, Bob. You have made, me aware of something that I had never even considered and you also have probably saved a lot of us a LOT of trouble and misery with this awareness. In the future, if I don't complete a firing sequence, I'll just fire off into the dirt as someone here suggested.

God bless you for so many great insights!

I second these comments
I just started in air guns and did not know this.. and surely would have created this condition...
Thanks very much 
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: KC Airgunner on December 16, 2013, 12:14:15 PM
Ive been shooting airguns for over 30 years and never even thought of that!  Good thing to know, especially since i have the GRT 3 trigger installed on both of my gas ram rifles, and being the quality pieces that they are, the pull is greatly reduced from thier factory counterparts, and they break so crisp.  But really, as was said, it applies to anything with a trigger.  Great info!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Swedge on December 19, 2013, 07:48:07 AM
yeah I was totally unaware of that, but most of the time I didn't leave my air guns cocked long as most of them were springers and i was paranoid about loosing spring tension over time... So i would just fire it into the ground or a pine cone or something! Dont hunt much with my Airguns so it wasn't much of an issue but good info to know for sure!!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Monganese on December 19, 2013, 08:25:37 AM
yeah I was totally unaware of that, but most of the time I didn't leave my air guns cocked long as most of them were springers and i was paranoid about loosing spring tension over time... So i would just fire it into the ground or a pine cone or something! Dont hunt much with my Airguns so it wasn't much of an issue but good info to know for sure!!

This is not so much about leaving a gun cocked (which should NEVER EVER be done at all IMHO regardless of springer/gas/pcp, it's just not worth the risk let alone the damage), it's more about if you come "off" a shot because the quarry moved/you got a fly in your ear/gust of wind or whatever reason, when your finger has already touched the trigger.

I think of it like if you were to lean against a door & start pulling the handle down, but not quite enough to fall through the door. If you then let go of the handle the door catch can't slide back in because of your weight pushing against the door & it may be just on the very edge of opening. So then next time you just touch the handle or someone comes up & knocks on the door, it lets go & you end up on your behind... Except with the door scenario there's only you flying round not a lump of lead  :o
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: More_Ammo on February 04, 2014, 04:42:55 PM
Good advice.
Thanks Charlie.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Swedge on February 12, 2014, 01:29:54 PM
I keep looking for a "Like" box to press...   
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: tomykay12 on February 14, 2014, 12:13:18 PM
For anyone interested, I started a post on this topic on the Yellow forum. Interesting thread, tk
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Oldnoob on March 03, 2014, 05:38:06 PM
New to air rifles. Thanks for sharing this. I just hope i can remember it.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Freebird on September 01, 2014, 03:29:39 AM
Common sense, but I might never have thought of it if you hadn't posted this.
Kinda gave me shivers to realize I hadn't thought of it and probably never would have.
Thanks for making me aware it beforehand!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Oldnoob on October 04, 2014, 11:33:38 AM
Quick uninformed question.   Does the term "Balk Firing" refer to air rifles only?

Reason i ask, is that i have not found a reference to "Balk Firing" in connection to firearms and misfiring.
Also is it odd that it has the word "Firing" in it  which technically would not apply to an airgun.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: avator on October 04, 2014, 03:29:06 PM
I refer to the launching of any projectile as firing. As a kid we used to fire spitballs across the classroom at each other. The only time we balked was when the teacher came into the room.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Busta Cap on January 18, 2015, 03:45:12 PM
Never thought about this-thanks!!!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: airgunnertoo on January 22, 2015, 09:53:51 AM
thank you, I never thought about this.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Hoebie on June 20, 2015, 09:34:01 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Subway on July 02, 2015, 03:15:45 AM
Thank u for the info
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Jetmd on July 23, 2015, 09:23:06 PM
I am brand new to this Forum and Airguns.
Thank you for this informative post!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Squirrel B Gone on July 29, 2015, 11:55:21 PM
I'm so glad you posted this, thank you Bob. I've noticed this due to the sensitivity of the replacement GRT-IV trigger I installed. I never would have realized it with the crummy original SAT trigger it came with.
However, I never would have known that one could reset the sear by re-cocking it. I agree with most of the other submissions that the best option in such a situation is to finish the trigger cycle into something inert.
One last detail I noticed when a balk fire occurred with my Gamo Silent Cat, was that I was unable to engage the safety after the sear had been engaged. This further emphasizes the importance of ensuring a safe discharge of the weapon.
I'm a little amazed that this is the only mention I've seen about this safety issue.
Thank you for bringing this into the open.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: GumpIsrael on August 06, 2015, 11:45:39 PM
WOW... did not know about this. Makes sense though. Thank you very much sir. This is critically important to me as my son and I plink almost daily, I don't like to think of the worst results of a balk fire during our bonding time. Very important safety issue.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: avator on August 13, 2015, 02:26:01 AM
I experienced a variation of this just the other day with an FD-PCP. You may or may not know that the FD-PCP does not have a gauge on it, unless you are blessed with the talent or or the means to put one on. It had been awhile since I last shot the gun and I'm not sure if I didn't leave it charged or it leaked off. Either way, I put a pellet in it and try to fire it. All I got was a half click from the trigger. Without thinking I hooked the gun up to my tank to fill it. As soon as the pressure from the tank entered the tube the gun fired. Two very fortunate things happened....
#1. I never position myself in the line of fire when filling any PCP.
#2. It fired before it built enough pressure in the tube to do serious damage to the roof of my porch when it hit it, just a nice little reminder ding. I'm sure it would have done plenty of damage to my eye tho.
You can rest assure I'll never let this happen again.
Title: I guess it was time I learned something new
Post by: Joe Brancato on August 18, 2015, 10:29:49 AM
Very good tutorial on the subject. I had never put much thought into what happens when one starts to pull, and then releases a trigger.  The concept is simple, and yet I never thought it out. I never even heard of "balk firing", even though I had seen the topic posted at the top for eons (just didn't take the time to read it).

Suggest we even edit the title with the words "Safety Reminder" or similar words in the subject so that those that scan quickly might take more notice.  Wish I would have taken the time to read it a long time ago.

Again, good topic, thank you for posting.

(edit for spelling error)
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: justbrian55 on December 03, 2015, 06:03:49 PM

Thanks Bob. My tactile takes note.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: MassGunman on February 11, 2016, 07:07:18 PM
Thanks for the tip . This forum is an invaluable resource for novice airguners  , such as myself .
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Puerto Rico Hunter on February 24, 2016, 05:14:50 PM
Thanks a lot.
 This is very good to know.

Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: sam105 on March 28, 2016, 12:03:58 AM
I had never heard of Balk Firing, very Good Information!!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: James P on June 06, 2016, 03:45:30 PM
Thanks for this post, always wondered about that with the springer. Granted I normally only balk with the slack, but never point the barrel away from the target once I start creeping back. Then again with that monster I start bringing in the slack as I bring the rifle down.. She is a PITA to off  hand shoot so darn heavy.
I have a DA powder burner that if you try and release the slack, it will always jam it up.. Still love it, just know if I start in DA mode just to keep pulling that long monster. In SA mode it is sweet. Makes it a great carry gun with gloves...
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: hookedonpcp on July 11, 2016, 02:27:02 PM
Great info!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: gscrivner749 on December 04, 2016, 01:44:07 AM
     Thank you for the info Charlie!  Understanding how a mechanism works is vital in knowing how to properly use it.  It hadn't occurred to me that the sear is on a one way trip (no return spring).  I have a better understanding in regards to its safe use now! :D
I'll not re-cock however, I'd rather loose a pellet thru safe discharge than chance a miss-fire. Again, Thanks!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Traction Event on January 14, 2017, 06:37:00 PM
Great info here
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: ricksplace on January 14, 2017, 08:25:23 PM
The Remington Express has a safety designed to reset the sear and trigger to the start of the first stage after a balk fire. It's an ingenious design, and the only gun I know of with it. It's very stiff to reset after a balk fire since it moves the sear against the full force of a cocked mainspring. Resetting the safety without a balk fire is much easier as the sear and trigger don't have to move. It works. Every time.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: AAS410 on July 15, 2017, 02:56:07 PM
Very good post. Thank you for sharing. I will explain this to my Dad, Brother, Son and anyone else that I shoot guns with etc.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Airgun Van1 on July 18, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
Thanks for the safety tip makes perfect sense
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: jamr1 on July 21, 2017, 08:41:53 PM
Thanks for the info I'm new to the air gun group and I need the all the help I can get
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: jcolema1 on July 21, 2017, 09:16:44 PM
Thanks so much for the great safety information Charlie..
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Theo98 on October 01, 2017, 08:24:43 PM
Greatly appreciate the safety tip CDA...learned something new today (actually, learned A Lot today)!!  ;)

Ted
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: cray5 on October 31, 2017, 02:33:22 PM
Well .... I've been a member of this forum for about an hour, and have just learned something of extreme importance.  I guess I'll stick around for another hour or two.  Thank you very much for your post.

cray5
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Wolverineshooter on October 31, 2017, 03:22:50 PM
Thanks for the info. I am using this on my guns where the trigger is tough to pull or there is long travel. Basically I pull the trigger gradually to the end of first stage, release it, and then repair and shoot. The thing is always finish shooting a pellet and never leave it in the gun. Also make a habit using the trigger lock whenever the shooting session is over
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Cursum Perficio on December 11, 2017, 01:36:08 AM
Thank you for posting this Charlie, I did not realize this. Great explanation.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: elkhorn on January 03, 2018, 12:34:58 AM
Good info, thankyou
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: rafterp on January 03, 2018, 12:38:27 PM
Thanks for sharing...I haven't had mine go off, but I have started my trigger pull only to have to stop. I never knew I could re-cock it, just always kept the rifle on target and finished the shot.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: UlteriorModem on September 18, 2018, 02:40:17 PM
Good info here. I noticed on my NP2 that if I pull in the prestage, then release it for whatever reason the trigger will often stay in the prestage condition.

I just thought it was the mechanics of the trigger. Now I know better.

Fortunatly for the most part the gun never leaves pointing down range and usually the shot is returned to after a short delay. But now that I know this info it will be in my thought process.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Leonard on November 30, 2018, 09:44:58 PM
Excellent tip and explanation. You a good man da tuna ?
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: MMshtr on December 07, 2018, 01:27:48 PM
 A good reminder.   Thanks
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: fwbsport on April 25, 2019, 05:35:40 PM
Was wondering what to call it.  I know exactly what you mean and danger develops with a trigger partially pushed.
It raises the question of which air rifles are least affected by balk firing.  I look at my list and know the HWs are guilty! Every single one!
This is not true of the Theoben Eliminator--that trigger has stayed the same with all calibers I've owned.  It is NOT an easy trigger, the first stage runs right directly into letoff faster than any other trigger I've pulled including fire arm triggers.  It has no leverage point of wear and tear.  It fires SUDDENLY.

I am touting about the Eliminator trigger and perhaps others will disagree who own and shoot them but to me the fastest way around Trigger Balk is to get a rifle that won't allow a half cock.

Add the FWB Sport .177--this trigger is not a half cocking trigger--pressure is applied gently and the trigger settles into a cush position where it fires instantly.  I've said the FWB fires just like my Eliminator before in recoil and sound--now add the trigger!
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: overeasy on June 18, 2020, 12:09:53 AM
Great Post!  Thanks for the insight to a real safety issue that many of us probably never thought of.
OE
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: oledawg on July 03, 2020, 06:43:47 PM
Great information, makes total sense but had never considered it. Safety First
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: FreddyKruger on March 12, 2021, 04:02:07 PM
Great observation! Never thought of that. Tuna trigger is functioning awesome.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: jmoronic on March 21, 2021, 03:23:36 PM
Thank you for the information.
This is true of many firearms also.
The sear works the same on almost every trigger fired wepon.

SAFETY information, lets us shoot another day.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: deadenry on March 23, 2021, 04:04:05 PM
Wow, I had no idea. Glad for the information- really useful for a newbie like myself.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: cw308 on August 19, 2021, 02:26:31 PM
Very good and helpful post. I'm a center fire benchrest shooter, safety is the word for sure , for yourself and the person to the right and left of you. I'm finding airgun shooting is opening up a new world for me . I don't even own a air rifle yet , doing all the reading up on the sport and looking at all the options . At this point the rifle I'm pretty sure I'm going with is the HW95 springer . I'm glad I found this forum , I'm sure I will be having conversations with many of you . Until the next time , Be Well and Safe
Chris
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: OnTarget1357 on August 11, 2022, 10:04:38 PM
Thank you so much for the safety information.  It is good to know the things that can go wrong and be prepared no to make a costly mistake.  On the same subject, I have a couple of Umarex BB guns powered by CO2 cartridges.  They are a close replica of GLOCK 19 and they have a two stage trigger (same as the real one).  The first trigger blade will load the BB into the breach; if you keep pulling, the main trigger blade will cause the gun to fire.  If you release the first blade after is first depressed, then the loaded BB becomes unsecured and will fall off from the tip of the barrel.  Whether this can cause a double feeding, I don’t really know.  But it could become a safety issue.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Michael M. on August 13, 2022, 10:58:05 PM
Add me to the long list of people saying thanks for this valuable info.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: jpcode on January 04, 2023, 08:29:56 PM
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
Yes I think so, I would never re-cock Pellets are cheap, just put one in the dirt. I did it once, went to re-cock a Diana 34 and it slipped out of my hand and bent the barrel.
Title: Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
Post by: Oldgringo on June 03, 2023, 07:56:58 PM
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
Yes I think so, I would never re-cock Pellets are cheap, just put one in the dirt. I did it once, went to re-cock a Diana 34 and it slipped out of my hand and bent the barrel.

THIS!