edge vortex lost accuracy and power
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edge vortex lost accuracy and power
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Topic: edge vortex lost accuracy and power (Read 1740 times))
rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
yes
Real Name: Ronald
edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
on:
July 01, 2017, 01:37:44 PM »
My year and a half old edge vortex .177 has lost some velocity and a lot of accuracy in the last few months. When it was new I could shoot dime sized groups at ten yards and occasionally quarter sized groups at twenty yards, both from a rest. I bought a new rifle six months ago, a Maximus, so the Hatsan was not used for a few months. When I used it again, I couldn't hit an 8 by 10 target from 10 yards. After attempting to zero the Optima scope again, I would get two shots fairly close, and then shots four or more inches lower, sometimes completely missing the target from 10 yards. I have had lockup issues with the rifle and have attempted to tighten it; the barrel would sometimes open when I leveled it to shoot. I have tightened the pivot bolt, shimmed the spring with washers, and increased the travel of the chisel by shaving the rear of its slot. I assumed that the scope was damaged, this was my second Optima, so I bought a Hammers 3-9x32 Ao scope and was seeing the same shot patterns, a couple of close shots and then shots that were much lower or completely missed the target. I could never zero the new scope; it is hard to believe that the new scope could be defective but who knows. I bought a chronograph a few months ago and the Edge was shooting 8.3 superdomes at 780 fps and 7.9 benjamin hps at 850; it is now shooting the sds at 720 and the benjis at 775. I shot a string of AA 8.4s (17 shots) that averaged 778 fps with a 38 fps spread; does this spread seem too high? I guess I am wondering if the gun is failing (lockup or vortex ram) as opposed to the new Hammers scope; I don't have another springer to test the scope, only the Maximus and a Crosman mk177 multipump, both of which don't have the recoil of the Hatsan. I've got about 3500 shots through the Edge and it may just be worn out.
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Baton Rouge, LA
DanD
Nod and smile.
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A solid maybe
Real Name: Dan
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #1 on:
July 01, 2017, 03:01:18 PM »
High spread, loss of velocity and accuracy issues point toward the piston seal and/or breech seal. You can't really be sure about the condition of the ram until sealing issues are addressed.
Have you tried the tissue test? Lay small piece of tissue where the breech meets the cylinder. If it flies up in the air, your breech seal is failing.
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USA, upstate NY
rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
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Real Name: Ronald
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #2 on:
July 01, 2017, 04:47:01 PM »
The breech seal passed the tissue test and the piston seal was replaced with an ARH one. Which leaves me with three options (I think)--failing ram, bad lockup causing barrel to move while shooting, or defective new scope. I do however believe it is the gun and not the scope.
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Baton Rouge, LA
LeadPoisoner
Lead in Fruit = Lead Smoothie
Marksman
Posts: 331
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Real Name: Arnold G.
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #3 on:
July 01, 2017, 06:14:48 PM »
sounds like ram or seal.
those rams are serviceable i believe with new fill probe.
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Tampa, FL
please shoot responsibly! don't shoot papaya fruit with a crosman 760 and pellets like i did when i was 11.. back in 1986
they get stuck inside and they don't make a good sound in blender according to grandma her cousin said the papaya had hard seeds and she never seen that but tasted great!
may they rest in peace!
Benji Phoenix NP2 .22 "Mighty Mute Mule"
Crosman Fire NP .177 with ARH seal for my 12yr old
my 5 yr old girl took her first shot with my help and got a purple dot above eye from recoil, oops!
SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #4 on:
July 01, 2017, 08:03:34 PM »
The ram is serviceable as long as the seals in the ram itself are still good. You can add air with a high pressure hand pump and a Hatsan fill probe, you just have to be careful doing it.
Scattered shots could be that barrel lockup, but the power loss if it passed the tissue test and it has a new ARH seal is likely the ram but I'd still pull it apart and check that piston seal.
If by chance the rifle is still under the year warranty?? I'd email Hatsan about fixing it. If not, you could convert it to a Crosman Nitro piston or try getting your hands on a new Hatsan gas ram which isn't an easy trick as the only place I know of that sells them is Sharg in Poland and I don't know if they ship to the US as they still haven't answered an email asking if they will.
Here's the link to the Type 3 full power ram. They cost a little over $48 before shipping although for that cost, it might be easier to just wait until Field Supply has a sale and just pick up a new or refurb Edge cheap.
https://sharg.pl/product-pol-103478-Sprezyna-gazowa-Hatsan-VORTEX-TYPE-3-HP.html
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NY, USA
longhunter
what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
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Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #5 on:
July 02, 2017, 08:17:06 AM »
I have a Crosman ram in my 95. Personally, I think it's the way to go, when replacing the factory rams. You don't sacrifice much, if any, velocity, and, the shot cycle is smoother.
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casco, wi. USA
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Real Name: Tom
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #6 on:
July 02, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »
Hi Ron :
Say....Where on Earth.... did you find a Hatsan Edge W/Vortex Gas Piston in 177 cal. ? Wow... A Most Excellent Find on Your part Sir !!! I had been looking for that configuration of gun and stock myself, last fall and I wound up putting a 177 cal Striker in an Edge Stock because I could not find anywhere that sold the Vortex Gas Piston Edge in 177 Cal. For a while AGD had advertised them in 177cal. but every time I contacted them they did not have any. Now they & PA only advertise the Edge Vortex Gas Piston Rifle in 22 cal and 25 cal. The Hatsan web site shows the Vortex Gas Piston Edge in 177 cal. but I have, so far, been unable to locate a dealer that sells the Vortex Gas Piston Edge in 177 caliber. Good Job !
Best Wishes & Best Regards - Tom
«
Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:21:33 PM by T.Wood-68
»
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The North Woods - We have 2 seasons, Winter & Mosquito/Tick season
********* My Menagerie of Bottom Shelf Air Rifles *********
.25 cal. Hatsan 125TH Magnum - Coil Spring
.25 cal. Hatsan Edge - Crosman NP Gas Spring (Now a Mini Magnum - Thank's to mikeyb)
.22 cal. Walther Talon Magnum - Coil Spring (A Hatsan 125 Magnum)
.22 cal. Gamo Magnum GR - Coil Spring
.22 cal. Crosman Summit Ranger - NP2 Gas Spring
.22 cal. Crosman Diamond Back - NP Elite Gas Spring
.22 cal. Umarex Surgemax Elite - TNT ReAxis Gas Spring
.177 cal. Hatsan Striker - Vortex Gas Spring
.177 cal. Stoeger S3000C - Coil Spring
.177 cal. Umarex NXG APX - Multi Pump
The Crosman Nitro Gas Spring conversion parts in the Hatsan Edge were a gift from
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The 22 cal Walther Talon Magnum Rifle - A 22 cal. Hatsan Edge/ Striker Barrel - The Edge rifle stock on the Hatsan Striker - were gifts from
SteveP-52
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rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
yes
Real Name: Ronald
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #7 on:
July 02, 2017, 10:04:23 AM »
Tom, I got it from AGD in December 2015 for 89.00. I haven't seen it offered much since then so maybe they stopped selling the .177 version.
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Baton Rouge, LA
SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #8 on:
July 02, 2017, 11:45:38 AM »
The other option would be email Hatsan and see about getting the spring, top hat and spring guide and converting it to a springer. I have a .25 Edge with the spring and tuned, it's a nice shooter and actually shoots a touch faster fps wise than the gas rammed version.
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NY, USA
Gut2Fish
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 573
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Real Name: Garrett
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #9 on:
July 02, 2017, 07:49:36 PM »
Think it's the barrel bolt. Somebody posted an excellent video about that where the tuner was saying you were lucky if the lock screw fit when reinstalling the bolt tight. Went on to say most of the time he manipulates the metal on the bolt head to accept the lock screw where the barrel is tight. Loose barrel will no hit anything consistently. May solve your barrel not locking problem too.
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Vermont
Dreamin' of my first Big Bore.
rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
yes
Real Name: Ronald
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #10 on:
July 03, 2017, 09:57:04 AM »
Thanks for the responses. I put the old piston seal back in, lubed the seal, compression chamber, and everything possible with a light coat of moly paste. I worked on the lockup mechanism and pivot bolt again and lubed it. How tight should the pivot bolt be? I can move the locked barrel down with one finger and it will move slightly and then spring back; should there be absolutely no movement at all? I'll test it this weekend.
«
Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:04:26 AM by rong1966
»
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Baton Rouge, LA
longhunter
what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
GTA Senior Contributor
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Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #11 on:
July 04, 2017, 12:02:59 AM »
There shouldn't be any movement, when the barrel is latched.
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casco, wi. USA
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Gut2Fish
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 573
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Real Name: Garrett
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #12 on:
July 04, 2017, 07:58:30 AM »
I'll have to test how easily my barrel can move down. It is how you cock it after all and do feel it move if bench shooting and almost toss the gun onto the pillow. It should have some resistance to downward motion though. One finger seems awful light, getting the gun out this morning...
Nope, there is no way I can move the barrel down with a finger. It takes considerable force to start the cocking motion. Like I said it does slightly open and click back if I let the gun fall onto the pillow when bench shooting. That's considerable force letting 9 lbs fall half a foot or more to jar the barrel.
«
Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 02:25:15 PM by Gut2Fish
»
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Vermont
Dreamin' of my first Big Bore.
rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
yes
Real Name: Ronald
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #13 on:
July 15, 2017, 03:33:08 PM »
UPDATE:
I purchased a new lockup spring, chisel, and piston seal from HatsanUSA. The old chisel had obvious wear compared to the new one. The lockup is now as good as it ever was with no barrel movement and I can't break the barrel with one finger anymore. I was able to zero the scope and was getting accurate groups for a good while until the barrel was noticeably looser after cocking and during the closing cycle. The pivot bolt had loosened almost two notches where the locking screw attaches. I tightened it and think it should be accurate again when I shoot it next (hopefully.) Velocity is up slightly with the new seal but still is lower than I think it should be; AA 8.4's shoot at 785 fps, Sniper medium 8.5's shoot at just over 800 fps, and AA 10.3's are at 725. Now I need to figure out how to prevent the pivot bolt from getting loose--maybe blue loctite?
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Baton Rouge, LA
SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #14 on:
July 15, 2017, 03:42:13 PM »
Blue Loctite on both the pivot bolt and lock screw should do the trick. You can also use Vibra-Tite which is almost the same thing but allows for adjusting screws if necessary without losing the locking abilities of it.
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NY, USA
rong1966
Plinker
Posts: 144
yes
Real Name: Ronald
Re: edge vortex lost accuracy and power
«
Reply #15 on:
July 28, 2017, 06:32:32 PM »
I tried blue loctite on the pivot bolt and it didn't hold. The bolt loosened after about 75 shots and accuracy was terrible again. I next tightened the bolt as much as I could to get to the next slot for the locking screw and it worked. I shot over 150 pellets and accuracy was as good as it ever was.
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Baton Rouge, LA
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edge vortex lost accuracy and power