Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
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Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
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Topic: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave (Read 1162 times))
KY_HillBilly
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Real Name: Billy
Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
on:
January 29, 2019, 10:12:40 PM »
Hi All,
I am doing my first lube and tune. The gun is my daughter's Ruger Impact .22 (not the Max).
Symptoms for the tear down is poor accuracy and inconsistent Standard Deviation. StdDev ranges from 5-6 to the 20's while averaging in the teens. FPS is ~715 for CPHP's and ~706 for CP-DUM's. Groups are ~1.5-2.0" inches at 20 yards (basement). My sons Impact will group around an inch. My other sons Hatsan 95 shoots a disappointing 1.25 at 10 yards (new seal arrived yesterday)
Of course, the factory piston seal had nicks in it. I can shoot my stock D34 to .25 - 0.5 at 20 yards so I am familiar with the artillery hold and shooting springers (although no expert for sure). I don't expect her gun to shoot like the D34, before, or after the tune. But, I'd like for it to be at least minute of black bird / squirrel...
The tune consists of:
De-burring
A new .128X.825OD Vortek spring with 29 coils, which is one extra
Vortek ProSEAL28-M seal
Possibly reversing the piston sleeve or making new ones from plastic
The lube will be Super Lube - PTFE in the compression chamber, Super Lube silicone oil on piston seal edge, and JM Super Moly everywhere else
I've been reading all about reversing the piston sleeve, making piston sleeves from plastic bottles, etc. However, I haven't found a reference to what I'm seeing in this gun. The metal piston sleeve is heavily crimped. So much so, that it is a struggle to screw the spring into and out of it. It appears to me that this crimp is so tight that it is effectively preventing half of the spring from compressing, or at least hindering it.
My questions are regarding the factory piston sleeve. Is that heavy crimp normal and could it be impeding spring action? Should I replace it with plastic, grind out the crimp, use it as is / was?
Lastly, I also ordered bearing washers from Vortek. I was thinking I'd put one at the top of the spring in lieu of a top hat. Is that an acceptable or beneficial practice? I don't think this gun justifies a whole kit, so I just went with the spring, seal, and the intent to DIY the rest.
Comments on my plan are welcome also.
Thank you in advance,
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
DanD
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Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #1 on:
January 29, 2019, 11:11:22 PM »
Not sure what you mean by the crimp, but you don't want the sleeve to bind the spring movement. It sounds like that might be contributing to your high SD numbers.
I size plastic sleeves so it takes a light push to fit the spring in the piston, but the spring slides in smoothly.
Good luck!
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KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
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Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #2 on:
January 29, 2019, 11:33:00 PM »
I'll add some pics to clarify the crimps on this piston seal. It sounds like they need to be removed, or I use a DIY sleeve.
The crimps are so tight on the spring that I cannot pull it out of the sleeve without "unscrewing" it.
Furthermore, they are not even symmetrical. Looking at the end of the sleeve, they are at the 12 and 3 positions.
Thank you for the reply DanD.
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
Roadworthy
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Real Name: Thomas
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #3 on:
January 30, 2019, 12:08:44 AM »
If the piston sleeve is tight on the spring now it can only get tighter when you cock the gun. The spring increases slightly in outer diameter when cocked. It's okay to have a tight spring guide because that's inside the spring and gets looser when cocked. I'd be leery of adding any washers on the end of the spring. If you get too much stuff there you'll find yourself spring bound before the sear can latch when you cock the gun. Spring bound is where all coils are touching. At that point the spring is more like a steel tube with no give. An airgun is frequently very close to being very close to coil bound when cocked. If you ordered a new spring you may wish to "set" it before installation. This can make installation much easier as setting may "shrink" the spring length by two inches. If you wish to make a new piston sleeve from aluminum or plastic try this:
A piece of material 3" X 5" is a good starting point.
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Near the Southern Coast of Washington State
Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
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Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #4 on:
January 30, 2019, 11:01:35 AM »
So, to simplify for a lube and tune newbie, I should not use this sleeve as is with those crimps. Correct?
Thank you
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
Roadworthy
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Posts: 9698
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Real Name: Thomas
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #5 on:
January 30, 2019, 12:18:13 PM »
Reviewing your pictures, it appears the crimps are to hold the sleeve in place on the spring which holds it in the piston. With the crimps holding the spring I do not believe it would be able to slide freely inside the sleeve. If it were my gun (I know, it's not) I would remove that sleeve, fabricate a new sleeve, and give it a try. There should be nothing restricting the spring's freedom of movement. Who knows? You may even see an increase in accuracy. Check over the piston seal really well for nicks and damage while the gun is apart. How loose or tight is the seal in the compression tube? It should not slide freely. You should feel two or three pounds of resistance to being moved, no more than that. If it takes a lot of force to move the piston in the tube consider sizing the seal. If it takes no force replace the seal.
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Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
Airnut
Expert
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Real Name: Frank
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #6 on:
January 30, 2019, 12:54:18 PM »
I agree with RW but I think that I would try grinding the crimp so that the spring just barely clears the crimps also I would smooth what looks like a weld seam on the inside of the tube. Then give it a try. Make sure that you lube the spring and inside the tube.
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KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
yes
Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #7 on:
January 30, 2019, 01:10:58 PM »
Thanks Roadworthy and Airnut! Now I have a plan of action. If I can't remove the crimps / seam then I will make a new sleeve.
The original seal had nicks as almost could be expected. I already have a new one in hand.
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
Airnut
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Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #8 on:
January 30, 2019, 02:43:18 PM »
Let us know how it works!
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mikeyb
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Posts: 1898
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Real Name: Michael
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #9 on:
January 30, 2019, 10:22:15 PM »
My 2 cents...
The bad piston seal is likely 98% of your accuracy problem. I'd clean, relube, and only replace piston seal for the first test because I'd want to know how the factory spring performed before installing the new one. The super-lube with teflon I have is mostly silicone oil with a trace of teflon added. It will diesel like crazy in the compression chamber. I'd suggest a dry moly paste or Krytox in the high pressure zone. The moly paste has some "carrier" oil which will also diesel, but it will go away quickly if you apply it in a VERY thin layer.
Some moly paste on metal-2-metal parts outside the high pressure area and silicone grease on the spring and guides should work well and not cause any problems.
I assume those piston sleeve crimps were towards the front of the rifle?
If Yes...
Since there is no other sleeve structure I can see in your photo to keep the sleeve in place during the shot cycle, the bumps are there to keep the sleeve properly located in the piston. The bumps will not significantly restrict spring motion since they are only interacting with the first 2-3 coils which are mostly "dead" coils anyway.
If no...
I tuned a rifle with a factory sleeve and stupidly worked the cocking arm without the proper stock guides in place. The cocking shoe DUG INTO the sleeve creating dual dent marks almost identical to those in your photo. My new "dents" were at the end of the sleeve close to the middle of the spring. They interfered with spring motion and made a BAD grindy sound during my first cocking attempt. Needless to say the gun was immediately disassembled and I found my mistake. The "dents" were easily removed by pushing the correct size deep-well socket through the sleeve with a little (gentle) persuasion from a ball peen hammer. No evidence remains of my oopsy and the rifle now performs as it should.
Edit... Forgot to mention checking the breach seal. I've had a lot of bad ones from Umarex. Breach o-ring should be about 0.010" - 0.015" above the breach plane to make a good seal. Bad seal will contribute to velocity variation and poor accuracy. May not be the same, but on my Blackhawk Elite it was a cheap & easy fix with a Dash-109 70A durometer (hardness) o-ring.
«
Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:35:50 PM by mikeyb
»
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Too many toys & not enough play time!
KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
yes
Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #10 on:
January 30, 2019, 11:44:39 PM »
Thanks for the great info mikeyb.
Only changing the piston seal at first makes a lot of sense. Change one parameter, check the results... Then I can compare the springs.
Regarding lube, I debated Krytox at length. However, I decided to use CDT's guide from the library. Essentially, it is Super Lube - PTFE sparingly in the compression chamber, silicon or moly on the seal, moly on the piston, and tar on the spring. From what I see, tar fell out of favor though, therefore I was planning on moly for the spring also. I'm not a serious prepper, but I live way out in the country. I figured if anything did happen, my tube of super lube and JM's super moly would go a lot further than 1/2 oz of Krytox. Also, you mentioned Super Lube Oil, but I have Super Lube grease. I don't know if that makes a difference...
Regarding the piston sleeve, I think you nailed it... First of all, the crimps are in the back of my sleeve, near the middle of the spring. The front of the sleeve has a rolled lip on it that the spring sets against. That's why it appears to me that those crimps are hindering about half of the spring. I can pull the spring from the sleeve after "threading" it into the sleeve, but it takes about 10-15 lbs of pull and sounds ugly. So how much can the portion trapped between the front of the sleeve and the crimps actually be working?
Now for the interesting part. The cocking shoe is in fact, a perfect fit into the crimps. However, this is the first time I've had the gun apart since purchased new at Walmart and the cocking was fairly smooth. Maybe the factory screwed it up? That could also explain why the crimps aren't symmetrical. I couldn't figure out the reasoning for the 12 and 3 positions instead of 12 and 6.
The socket and hammer idea is brilliant. I'll try that and if I can't get the crimps out, I'll DIY a new sleeve from plastic.
If I can remove the crimps, does anyone have thoughts on putting the sleeve at the back of the piston per the "Poor man's Vortek" thread?
Thanks to all,
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
«
Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 11:49:17 PM by KY_HillBilly
»
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Roadworthy
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Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #11 on:
January 30, 2019, 11:56:31 PM »
Something to consider - if the cocking shoe (or arm or whatever) fits INTO the crimps in your piston sleeve it's possible that once you pound the crimps out the cocking device won't grab the piston as it should. The home made sleeves (can or bottle) will probably have enough give to allow you to catch the piston. Having never seen your gun this is all conjecture on my part but it may bear investigation. By the way, I don't use so much moly lube any more. I got a container of molybdenum disulfide powder from eBay. I kind of burnish it into my compression tube and other potential rubbing surfaces. It will work with Krytox or moly lube with no adverse effects. You are right - a half ounce of Krytox probably won't go far. That's why i get the two ounce tubes from Zoro for about the same price most outfits want for a half ounce container.
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Real knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance.
KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
yes
Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #12 on:
January 31, 2019, 12:36:35 AM »
The crimps are out now via the socket and hammer trick. It was easy, the sleeve is a lot softer than I figured. The sleeve is round within .005" now, where before I could see it was oval by eye. I'd say the sleeve was crushed some when the cocking foot / crimp incident occurred.
The spring slides in and out with no resistance now due to a .035" gap between the spring OD and sleeve ID.
Here is a pic showing cocking shoe / sleeve / piston fitment. I think it can still work without the crimps.
And while at it, I took a pic of the original seal.
Thanks to all,
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
mikeyb
Expert
Posts: 1898
Quattro Trigger Animation
Real Name: Michael
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #13 on:
January 31, 2019, 12:39:07 AM »
Sorry for the kindergarten sketch. The 2 piece cocking link can be a real PITA sometimes. You may have made the dents during disassembly and not even realized it? Any tilt of that second link with the shoe end will rotate the shoe and it will DIG into the sleeve. Another possibility is a customer return sold as new? It does happen.
I bought a Crosman F4 from WM last year. Got it home and checked the safety and trigger-BLAMM! Rifle was already cocked! Thankfully no pellet was loaded. Did need to change my shorts
Wasn't concerned about a single dry fire (that I know of) and the fact that it may have been cocked for months was also not a problem since the F4 is gas spring, not coil.
My point is that the damage could have happened anywhere. Be careful during re-assembly as a "tilted" cocking shoe can dent the sleeve AGAIN with very little effort.
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Too many toys & not enough play time!
KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
yes
Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #14 on:
January 31, 2019, 12:51:01 AM »
mikeyb
It turns out that a picture actually is worth a thousand words. That condition you show, very well I might add, quite possibly happened when I disassembled the gun. I remember fiddling with that cocking link with it being the first time that I disassembled the gun completely.
Anyway, great explanation and great lesson learned. I definitely know what not to do when I tear into the D34 (if it even has a similar sleeve)
Thank you kind sir!!
I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
mikeyb
Expert
Posts: 1898
Quattro Trigger Animation
Real Name: Michael
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #15 on:
February 01, 2019, 10:02:16 AM »
I'll probably start a fire with these inflammatory (pun intended) comments on springer lubes:
The Super-Lubes (oils or grease) with Teflon are typically synthetic or silicone based with a small amount of Teflon (PTFE) added. The Teflon deposited is GOOD, but the "carrier" for the Teflon will diesel a lot in the high pressure zone. I typically use the Super-Lube grease with PTFE to ONLY lightly coat my springs as they slide in/over non-metal guides. Very little gets by the piston seal to diesel and it helps dampen what LITTLE spring twang remains AFTER correctly sizing the spring guides.
I use the dry-ish Honda Moly paste VERY SPARINGLY in the compression tube, piston seal during re-assembly, and piston skirt where metal-2-metal contact with compression tube may occur. If you have a buttoned piston skirt, the moly is not needed there. I also use a tiny amount of the moly paste on high force trigger contact points after they have been carefully polished. A BB sized lump is more than enough for one rifle. My 2 oz tube of moly paste (~$15) has been used on over 2 dozen rifles and I expect it will last for over 200!
There is some kind of mineral(?) oil carrier for the moly paste and it WILL diesel a little even if you apply it in a VERY thin layer. They way I prefer to lube my rifles, that moly diesel will be obvious for 2-3 shots max, then it's pretty much DONE.
I recently decided to try Krytox and ordered a 2 oz tube for ~$25. I haven't used it yet so cannot comment on how it performs. While the initial cost for these may seem high, I expect that I now have a LIFETIME supply of both moly paste and Krytox and will never have to purchase more.
Other greases and lubes can be used in springers with varying degrees of good and bad side effects. The low cost per tube/bucket 3% moly grease for example could work fine in lower power springers where a small amount of consistent dieseling may be considered a "good" thing. I might use that on a spring, but would avoid getting it in the high pressure zone on medium-magnum power springers. I suggest you do your own research, be wary of the MYTHS, HYPE, & DOGMA and use what YOU want in YOUR own rifles.
Logged
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Too many toys & not enough play time!
KY_HillBilly
Shooter
Posts: 11
yes
Real Name: Billy
Re: Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave
«
Reply #16 on:
February 02, 2019, 03:18:27 AM »
It is done, and accuracy doubled (or halved)? USPS held my Vortek parts hostage in Cincinnati for 2 days during the polar vortex but they finally arrived today and I got it reassembled tonight.
For the lube:
I Super Lubed the compression chamber and then wiped it out per CDT guide.
I used moly on the piston seal edge, 1 inch of each end on the piston, between the piston and previously crimped metal piston sleeve,and lightly over the spring.
The tune ended up being:
The new Vortek piston seal.
Windshield washer bottle plastic around my spring guide to make it a tight fit.
Grind and polish the piston end of the spring
A Vortek bear-washer between the spring end and piston sleeve
I used the original spring to see the effect of lube and seal first per Roadworthy's recommendation
It now groups 1" at 20 yards, which is a far cry from my D34, but half as big as previously. StdDev dropped to a consistent 3-6 from a erratic high in the 20's. However, I lost some speed. Previously it shot from 706-715, but now it is in the 650's. I did have some smoke and smell for the first 10 shots or so, but hardly any after. Cocking is virtually silent now. The shot cycle is 100% better, just a solid thump with no spring twang. I tried the other Ruger and couldn't believe the difference in the twang and harshness of the shot cycle.
Options remaining if I want to increase fps:
Install the new spring
Turn the piston seal (it's pretty snug)
Replace the metal piston sleeve with plastic to reduce piston weight.
Possibly take out the plastic "sleeve" I installed on the piston guide. It's VERY tight and could be hindering the spring.
Thanks to all for the great suggestions in this thread and especially to Roadworthy for some in-depth info via messages.
I feel much better working on the other Ruger, the Hatsan, and D34 now.
«
Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 12:32:25 AM by KY_HillBilly
»
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I'm just a KY_HillBilly
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Ruger Impact - Crimped Piston Sleave