GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Hunting Gate => Topic started by: bobster on March 22, 2012, 03:37:51 PM
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Saw this one on another forum. Please add any thoughts or corrections, or if you have other charts that would be fantastic. Seems pretty close to me for a lot of these. As I understand it, it assumes pretty much perfect headshot placement.
1) Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 4.5fpe
2) Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 4fpe
3) Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 4.5fpe
4) Raccoon/ Bandit - 9fpe.. if it's a big one, 10fpe.
5) Virginia Opossum/ County Rat - 10fpe
6) Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 7-8fpe (depending on size)
7) Gray Fox - 8.5fpe
8. Red Fox - 9.5-10fpe
9) Bobcat - 9fpe
10) Bullfrog - I have no clue, but 2fpe should do the job.
11) Snapping Turtle - no clue again but I would think at least the same as bird or squirrel.
12) Crow - 3.5 fpe head, 6fpe body/vitals
13) Pigeon - 3 fpe head, 5fpe body/vitals
14) Sparrow - 2.5fpe, it doesn't matter where you hit them.
15) Starling -
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Yea right in an ideal world with a PERFECT fuse box shot !!
More unfortunate critters get maimed to crawl elsewhere and suffer or die from such low power shots from dime store power bb guns / air rifles that fall under or at those power levels.
Just my opinion, only critters to fall reliably under those power levels are small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats.
But then again a lucky or correctly placed shot is like a LIGHTNING bolt even from a bb gun ... go figure.
JMO ... nuttin more
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After having taken a bunch of odds and ends, with accurate but lower power guns, I would say this is right on......
I would speculate that vulnerable areas are implied, which also implies to the hunter that they know the anatomy of the game.
I would also speculate that power is at the animal......so power requirement at the muzzle could be exponentially more, depending on distance.
Just my interpretation.
God bless,
Farmer
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Saw this one on another forum. Please add any thoughts or corrections, or if you have other charts that would be fantastic. Seems pretty close to me for a lot of these. As I understand it, it assumes pretty much perfect headshot placement.
1) Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 4.5fpe
2) Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 4fpe
3) Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 4.5fpe
4) Raccoon/ Bandit - 9fpe.. if it's a big one, 10fpe.
5) Virginia Opossum/ County Rat - 10fpe
6) Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 7-8fpe (depending on size)
7) Gray Fox - 8.5fpe
8. Red Fox - 9.5-10fpe
9) Bobcat - 9fpe
10) Bullfrog - I have no clue, but 2fpe should do the job.
11) Snapping Turtle - no clue again but I would think at least the same as bird or squirrel.
12) Crow - 3.5 fpe head, 6fpe body/vitals
13) Pigeon - 3 fpe head, 5fpe body/vitals
14) Sparrow - 2.5fpe, it doesn't matter where you hit them.
15) Starling -
This chart is downright irresponsible is what it is.
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After having taken a bunch of odds and ends, with accurate but lower power guns, I would say this is right on......
I would speculate that vulnerable areas are implied, which also implies to the hunter that they know the anatomy of the game.
I would also speculate that power is at the animal......so power requirement at the muzzle could be exponentially more, depending on distance.
Just my interpretation.
God bless,
Farmer
I agree VA farmer, they are probably thinking pretty much perfect shots here. That may include correct placement on the head. F.e. not where there is too much slope to the skull. Or hitting vulnerable areas of the skull. Obviously that becomes more important as the size of the animal and skull increases. Maybe we could make a chart that shows FPE for perfect shots, chest/vitals shots etc. by animal. That would be pretty neat. We'd have to make some assumptions about the penetration of the pellet though, such as using only domed pellets (no wadcutters on low-penetration end or ballistic tipped on high penetration end).
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This chart is downright irresponsible is what it is.
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I can't speak for the larger game because I don't shoot those but it seems about right to me for the small stuff. Also range is obviously an important factor and there is no assumed range mentioned for those FPE. If it would be of some value I can draft an excel chart with range and kill zone location by animal as a place to start then we can correct it and get it somewhat accurate. I won't do that though unless there is interest. Thanks.
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10 FPE on a coon or fox? LMBO! Maybe it could be done, but I definitely wouldn't try it. Snapping turtle? I shot one point blank with my 24FPE trail xl 1100 on my fishing line, right between the eyes. The pellet never exited out the bottom of his head.
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Well I guess I just double checked the squirrel rating. Speak of the devil! Had a nutter eating off my suet feeder on the tree in the back yard. Shot him in the head at about 5.25 fpe. Dropped like a stone! Again I think the numbers are right on for small critters but I can't speak to things like raccoons because I don't shoot those.
"Mr. Lothar Walther, meet Mr. Squirrel"
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This is what I think it SHOULD be:
1) Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 6 FPE head, 9 FPE vitals
2) Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 5FPE head, 8 FPE vitals
3) Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 8 FPE head, 11 FPE vitals
4) Raccoon/ Bandit - 14 FPE head, 22 FPE vitals
5) Virginia Opossum/ Country Rat - 10 FPE head, 16 FPE vitals
6) Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 11 FPE head, 17 Vitals
7) Gray Fox - 11 FPE head, 18 vitals
8. Red Fox - 12 FPE head, 19 vitals
9) Bobcat - 15 FPE head, 25 vitals
10) Bullfrog - 5 FPE head or vitals
11) Snapping Turtle - 9 FPE head
12) Crow - 4 FPE head, 6 FPE vitals
13) Pigeon - 4 FPE head, 6 FPE vitals
14) Sparrow - 3 FPE head, 5 FPE vitals
15) Starling - 4 FPE head, 5 FPE vitals
Again, this is what I PERSONALLY think the numbers should be..
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Shadow pops Bandits with a 34 .177 at 25 yards with 7.9 grain pellets.
Those pellets start out at 15fpe and hit the critter with 10 to 11fpe.
Lets not get carried away.....this is the hunting gate.
In a perfect world is the same world, Mr.Beeman came up with his chart.
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I love it Lambchops, that's the idea, just take a "shot" at what you think the right numbers are. Good job!
I think 2 variables have to be defined for a chart like that to work at all: Range and Pellet shape. In that squirrel I just shot I looked at him and the pellet went though his head and out the other side with a fairly decent sized hole. That was a predator polymag 8 grain at somewhere between 15-20 yards or so at about 630 fps or so (crosman 2300). So using chairgun that is about 4.9-5.75 FPE at the most (would need to measure actual distance to find out for sure). But that is the ideal pellet for that and if it was wadcutters shoot who knows.
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I love it Lambchops, that's the idea, just take a "shot" at what you think the right numbers are. Good job!
I think 2 variables have to be defined for a chart like that to work at all: Range and Pellet shape. In that squirrel I just shot I looked at him and the pellet went though his head and out the other side with a fairly decent sized hole. That was a predator polymag 8 grain at somewhere between 15-20 yards or so at about 630 fps or so (crosman 2300). So using chairgun that is about 4.9-5.75 FPE at the most (would need to measure actual distance to find out for sure). But that is the ideal pellet for that and if it was wadcutters shoot who knows.
I can't tell if you are being serious, or sarcastic. Hmm...
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Just to keep is all friendly .... FROGS ??
Threw the years shot LOTS of BULL FROGS with a .22 LR in body/head having likely 1/2 the time frog leaping in reflex into the pond sinking out of site ??? .... Others indeed just went sprawl dieing on the spot.
One thing I have learned about Bull Frogs is how TOUGH they are !! .... Gigged 1000's over the years having 3 or 4 barbed points threw there body and head only to have them with an available foot try and push off the gigg :o
Toss enough into the sack with there guts turned inside out tearing them off the barbs only to have them very much alive and watching you at cleaning time !! .... Yea Frogs are tough sob's !!
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/bcb89ec8.jpg)
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"----it seems about right to me for the small stuff."
I must respectfully disagree. The list may be the rather infamous one from Robert Beeman that has been thoroughly debunked by knowledgeable hunters. Anyone with even a bit of experience knows that a Fox squirrel takes a lot more 'killing' than a Gray and both require a minimum of twice as much terminal energy as a Cottontail.
It strikes me that it was prepared from theoretical data by an academic rather than resulting from practical field experience. Exactly what might be anticipated from 'Dr.' Beeman.
A long forgotten but definitive airgun magazine article from the 1980s by one of our far Southern comrades in NZ or OZ pretty well defined energy needed to kill a rabbit. The author was the proprietor of a large sheep station and an avid collector of elderly airguns in the era when the imported Cottontail was a scourge to sheep farming. His end-of-day final task was a stroll down the long lane to the mailbox with his dog in waning light and he got into the habit of taking along one of his veteran collectables to exercise it on the bunnys. He eventually quantified his results and shared them in the magazine. He found that any of his antiques capable of delivering 3 fpe of terminal energy to a rabbit was sufficient to cause death expeditiously. Having killed rabbits with everything from a thrown stone to a Red Ryder as a child I readily agree with his findings. But having been an active, enthusiastic and successful squirrel hunter with airguns for over 40 years as well I have an excellent 'feel' for how much energy must be delivered to put them down before they can escape to hole or hide.
In short there is simply no equitable comparison of the energy needed for squirrel and rabbit. Personal best guess is in the area of 3 to 1.
But eventually it ALL devolves to WHERE that energy is applied!
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Personally I've never given the fpe chart's a second thought or even looked at em. I spend the time studying the game that I hunt and yes that means checking out the result's of pellet damage to area's on the skull. There is a point to where certain airguns should not be used on certain game. I hunt with springers and some pumpers on smaller game and in that time with springers have learned the exact key spot or darn close to bring down the game. It's not just hitting the game in the head but hitting it in a small area that will do the most damage to the brain. I've heard of some saying but I hit it in the head and yes they did but not in the right spot. It's a learning process and did a bunch of homework on the game that I was looking to harvest. I'm not telling anyone to go out with their .177 midpowered airguns and be able to drop anything in the wood's but do your homework. Study your target and know your airgun like you know yourself and be darn comfortable with yourself and airgun when you put the cross hairs on the game cause some are tougher then they look and like any living thing the will to live is a powerful drug that can keep game moving when it should be down. Ed
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Sounds like to make the chart worthwhile we'd have to make an animal-specific "kill zone" diagram or picture or something. And the values would relate to that kill zone. In other words, saying a head shot is not specific enough. Certainly for that fox squirrel shown above I shot some minutes ago at 4.8-5.7 fpe, it was in a soft spot just below the ear. I was surprised at the big hole on the exit side at that low power. Totally agree the right spot is everything. making that kill-zone, or "soft-spot" diagram for each animal would take some work, but it would be educational and result in more humane kills IMO.
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Sounds like to make the chart worthwhile we'd have to make an animal-specific "kill zone" diagram or picture or something. And the values would relate to that kill zone. In other words, saying a head shot is not specific enough. Certainly for that fox squirrel shown above I shot some minutes ago at 4.8-5.7 fpe, it was in a soft spot just below the ear. I was surprised at the big hole on the exit side at that low power. Totally agree the right spot is everything. making that kill-zone, or "soft-spot" diagram for each animal would take some work, but it would be educational and result in more humane kills IMO.
Good thinking. I think we can all agree that the perfect spot on all the mammals we listed is right under the ear, next to their eye.
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
Cool . . .
This is very interesting, as my new .22 caliber Hatsan 125 with a 180 bar Gas Ram should be capable of 36 - 38 fpe with 18.1 - 22.1 gr pellets. I'll shoot the rifle "as is", until I can save up the funds for the Gas Ram conversion.
If those numbers are "good", everything is "on the menu", except the Coyote and the Pig . . . I still think the Coyote would be "down for the count" with my combo on a "good" head-shot !
Dave
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Personally I've never given the fpe chart's a second thought or even looked at em. I spend the time studying the game that I hunt and yes that means checking out the result's of pellet damage to area's on the skull. There is a point to where certain airguns should not be used on certain game. I hunt with springers and some pumpers on smaller game and in that time with springers have learned the exact key spot or darn close to bring down the game. It's not just hitting the game in the head but hitting it in a small area that will do the most damage to the brain. I've heard of some saying but I hit it in the head and yes they did but not in the right spot. It's a learning process and did a bunch of homework on the game that I was looking to harvest. I'm not telling anyone to go out with their .177 midpowered airguns and be able to drop anything in the wood's but do your homework. Study your target and know your airgun like you know yourself and be darn comfortable with yourself and airgun when you put the cross hairs on the game cause some are tougher then they look and like any living thing the will to live is a powerful drug that can keep game moving when it should be down. Ed
Aim for the Ear Canal . . .
Dave
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/e99ea547.jpg)
Cool . . .
This is very interesting, as my new .22 caliber Hatsan 125 with a 180 bar Gas Ram should be capable of 36 - 38 fpe with 18.1 - 22.1 gr pellets. I'll shoot the rifle "as is", until I can save up the funds for the Gas Ram conversion.
If those numbers are "good", everything is "on the menu", except the Pig !
Dave
I believe you could take a pig with your 35 FPE Hatsan tuned. With a headshot right beside the ear under 20 yards.
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I updated the chart above to better define the "head shot" area. Now it says "assumptions: Perfect headshot = known thin skull area for the target animal f.e. the area at/below the ear on a side on shot" or some wording like that.
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/e99ea547.jpg)
I don't completely agree with this chart. Pig takes 150 FPE? What about those gamos shooting em with like 12FPE with light pellets, or the Mrods doing 40-50 FPE. I think most of the numbers are pretty close though. I agree with Ed, know your quarry and study their anatomy, especially the skull. Learn every curve and slope, to completely minimize the risk of the pellet deflecting.
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/e99ea547.jpg)
I don't completely agree with this chart. Pig takes 150 FPE? What about those gamos shooting em with like 12FPE with light pellets, or the Mrods doing 40-50 FPE. I think most of the numbers are pretty close though. I agree with Ed, know your quarry and study their anatomy, especially the skull. Learn every curve and slope, to completely minimize the risk of the pellet deflecting.
Those Gamo videos on YouTube aren't with 12 FPE. They are with 20 or so FPE.
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Again the pig numbers came out of the sky just to put something in the box. No clue what it takes for a pig. Let me know ideas to put in there for the pig. I only saw the youtube videos with those guys with the really long ranger 45 guns that shoot like 700fpe. But those were some BIG PIGS1 they were shooting. 430 grain bullets! At the end he says teh bullet was stuck in the mud but hte video shows it clearly ricocheting off the pigs elbow or whatever and flying up at like at like a 30 degree angle. I bit too much power ya think? ha ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eUx_oEpyTw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eUx_oEpyTw#)
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i have to agree with lambchops at least double their listings and if you dont get a noggin shot in the power will destroy important innards and kill quick and humanely
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totally serious lambchops! No one that I know of has taken scientific readings of this stuff or anything so we can only go on our collective experience. And what that means is our collective opinions.
So here is a first draft of a chart based largely on lambchops numbers. Please let me know what numbers you think are off and we can adjust accordingly. It's just a guide and an interesting exercise. The most important factor in all of this is accuracy and that's why we are assuming a "perfect shot" if you will for the headshot column. I know woodchuck skulls for example are hard and if you hit them in the front in the forehead it may just caram (sp?) off. but the same shot in soft spot would be an instant, humane kill. So you have to take it with a grain of salt and again we are just gathering opinions, there is no "right" answer. Everyone should adjust based on their comfort level also and of course more power is more effective given the same accuracy. I'm totally guessiing on the big critters as a place to start and hoping someone with knowledge will correct those.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/e99ea547.jpg)
I don't completely agree with this chart. Pig takes 150 FPE? What about those gamos shooting em with like 12FPE with light pellets, or the Mrods doing 40-50 FPE. I think most of the numbers are pretty close though. I agree with Ed, know your quarry and study their anatomy, especially the skull. Learn every curve and slope, to completely minimize the risk of the pellet deflecting.
Those Gamo videos on YouTube aren't with 12 FPE. They are with 20 or so FPE.
Oh yeah sorry. Forgot they used the Extreme models, was thinking they just used the regular airguns at first. 4 grain pellet going 1600 FPS is about 22FPE.
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I believe you could take a pig with your 35 FPE Hatsan tuned. With a headshot right beside the ear under 20 yards.
Hmm . . . You have been watching YouTube video's haven't you? So have I . . . LOL !
I was thinking the same thing but, for me, a shot like that would have to be under a very limited set of circumstances:
(1) Less than 20 yd.
(2) Good angle.
(3) Pellets with EXCELLENT penetration capability.
(4) Me in an elevated stand ( Mama didn't raise no fool...I don't want to be chased by a PO'd boar, with me only toting an Air Rifle...LOL! )
Dave
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I shot a red fox with close to 20 FPE in the head and all I did was make him have a horrible day (well, he may well have died but he was able to outrun me before he did... if he did).
I shot a squirrel out of a tree, I guess the fox heard/saw it fall and went after it not seeing my about 15 yards from him and I aimed right between the eyes (standing). My best guess is that I hit a little high and it deflected off of its skull - but let me tell you that fox went CRAZY! Sreaming, yelling, twisting in circles.... I thought he was coming towards me at one point before I was able to reload.... got within 20-30 feet of me. A front leg kept giving out on him... I thought it was a matter of time as I reloaded trying to get another shot on him as this went on for a good I don't know, 10 seconds - though in my mind it seemed like it could have been even longer. Eventually he got his wits and before I could get another shot at him (he was moving around too ramdomly/fast) he ran about 70 yards, paused and looked back at me like hey! just happened, I took another shot trying to put him down and stop his suffering... but it was a bad shot the while hit him, didn't put him down.... I continued running after him but he lost me.
So, even with a decently powered gun with what you think may be a decent head shot can turn into a mess like I had! Poor thing - I still wonder what ever happened to him.
Like I said, I don't know what went wrong but my best guess is that it skipped off of his skull and hurt like *(&^!
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Again the pig numbers came out of the sky just to put something in the box. No clue what it takes for a pig. Let me know ideas to put in there for the pig. I only saw the youtube videos with those guys with the really long ranger 45 guns that shoot like 700fpe. But those were some BIG PIGS1 they were shooting. 430 grain bullets! At the end he says teh bullet was stuck in the mud but hte video shows it clearly ricocheting off the pigs elbow or whatever and flying up at like at like a 30 degree angle. I bit too much power ya think? ha ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eUx_oEpyTw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eUx_oEpyTw#)
It was an interesting video . . .
That guy reminds me of a really irritating guy I went to college with, named Bob Ferguson . . . He was a real "PITA" !
I doubt it is him, but this guy looks and sounds exactly like him and the age is about right, too !
Dave
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"shot LOTS of BULL FROGS with a .22 LR in body/head having likely 1/2 the time frog leaping in reflex into the pond sinking out of site ??? ."
Motorhead, I used to do that too as a kid. The trick to always getting your frog is to not actually hit them, but hit the water JUST BELOW their head. I used HP stingers. The powderburner really sends a shock wave through the frog and stuns and/or kills them and sometimes tosses them onshore. I rarely lost a frog doing that.
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the first i have seen
http://www.beemans.net/field%20use.htm (http://www.beemans.net/field%20use.htm)
i know my box stock 1377 would drop nutters at 10yds no problem head or body
the 7.9gr pellet was producing about 4.8fpe
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I have taken squirrels out to 20 yards consistently with my 1377 with a flat top piston and valve. That is probably what 8 fpe at the muzzle maybe 5 at the nutter if I'm lucky?
I have taken several possums one out to 26 yards with my Crosman Titan putting out probably around 15 fpe at the muzzle.
Bull frogs don't take that much fpe. My son has been very sucessful taking frogs with his daisy buck shooting bbs in the 350fps range.
I have taken several large frogs with my 1377 some with as few as 5 pumps.
I would think a 30 fpe gun with a good headshot would take a pig or a yote effectively inside of 25 yards or so.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll180/bradyman1/7-25to7-31-11Froghunting009.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll180/bradyman1/7-25to7-31-11Froghunting007.jpg)
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that boy looks happy with his frog kill great to see kids into hunting . good father son activity
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no way this is correct.....
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no way this is correct.....
Based on what other source of information ?
We really need some "real-world" numbers on this data.
Dave
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The chart on page 1 has been updated with the new information. coyote, pig and bullfrog FPE have been lowered.
no way this is correct.....
Please suggest what changes need to be made to the chart for the specific animal. Also any experience you have relating to those numbers would help a lot. Also, please take into account the stated assumptions on the chart.
Bradyman1's numbers and experience shown above for example, are very helpful. Good job Bradyman1!
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Without some form of "testing", I'm afraid that we will never get truly accurate information on this.
However, I believe our current "guesstimates" are a good "starting point" and we should continue to compile this information, which will, ultimately, benefit all airgun hunters, both experienced and first-timers alike !
Dave
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i think there needs to be a little more room for error besides the perfect shot fpe....... i dont have any info to back up what my opinion is but there definitely needs to be some testing done to validate ay of that info ...because its to important to assume that those fpe are ok just on a chart.
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i've never understood the point of these charts, if im hunting and see some thing i feel comfortable with shooting at, i shoot it that simple, if i don't think its a good option to use an air rifle, i'll leave and return with a .22lr or a center fire depending on what the critter is and hope it hasn't moved while im getting another gun, and if it has moved....start tracking.
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Well I guess I just double checked the squirrel rating. Speak of the devil! Had a nutter eating off my suet feeder on the tree in the back yard. Shot him in the head at about 5.25 fpe. Dropped like a stone! Again I think the numbers are right on for small critters but I can't speak to things like raccoons because I don't shoot those.
"Mr. Lothar Walther, meet Mr. Squirrel"
Help me out here I'm a newbie when it comes to FPE. This is probably a stupid question, but with that squirrel kill you got there we're you using a low powered gun and measuring the FPE from the muzzle with a chrony or were you estimating the FPE of when the pellet hit the squirrel?
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i've never understood the point of these charts, if im hunting and see some thing i feel comfortable with shooting at, i shoot it that simple, if i don't think its a good option to use an air rifle, i'll leave and return with a .22lr or a center fire depending on what the critter is and hope it hasn't moved while im getting another gun, and if it has moved....start tracking.
Sometimes, you simply can't leave . . .
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/977159315_f9c1780944.jpg)
Other times, maybe you shouldn't have even been in the woods, at all . . .
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/stupidwithgunsfunnypictures18.jpg)
LOL !
Dave
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anyone else wondering how heavy that AR is with all the lights on it?
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now thats a nutter and thats a GUN
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Help me out here I'm a newbie when it comes to FPE. This is probably a stupid question, but with that squirrel kill you got there we're you using a low powered gun and measuring the FPE from the muzzle with a chrony or were you estimating the FPE of when the pellet hit the squirrel?
I Used Chairgun to get FPE. I actually guessed a slightly different BC for the pellet I was using at the time I estimated FPE. I got the correct BC today from rsterne and others (see airgun forum). The graph shown below is with the correct BC shows a FPE that is just a tad bit different from the one I used on the earlier post. The highlighted portion shows where the line crosses 20 yards which gives an FPE of about 5.3. 20 yards is a guess and it could have been a little closer or farther away so you could say somewhere between 5.0-5.6 FPE. If you haven't had a chance to play with chairgun I would suggest going to hawkeoptics.com and download it. It's free and is an amazing tool.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/23557e17.jpg)
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When in doubt don't shoot , A little common sense goes a long way. David
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Thanks for the chart bobster, I'll have to take a look at that website.
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I love these charts! Why go out and experiment on media at various ranges when you have all of this previously compiled (and completely unvetted) data right there on the lap top? So, who came up with these numbers? What were gun/pellet they shooting? At what range were the game taken? (And, for that question about FPE, it really ought to be at the point of impact, not the muzzle since that is where the damage is done.)
The biggest problem with going with the marginal shots, either because you aren't sure you have enough gun and are using the data to justify them or you aren't willing to do the field work, shooting various loads/animals and talking with other hunters to see how they have fared, is that you often end up maiming the game. You might be able to hit President Franklin ten times out of ten seated at the bench with wind flags, but you might completely miss a silver dollar off hand at ten feet. I guess what I'm saying is you have to keep it real and, as Dirty Harry said, "know your limitations". They you can compile your OWN chart.
Here's what I really like when it comes to "internet loads", the Gamo and others hunting "wild boar" with their air guns. Ask a lot of powder burner hunters what they consider good for wild boar and you will hear things like .44 Magnum. So, how come they use that when they could just as easily use a .22 Short? I mean, the Short is more powerful than most springers.
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I love these charts! Why go out and experiment on media at various ranges when you have all of this previously compiled (and completely unvetted) data right there on the lap top? So, who came up with these numbers? What were gun/pellet they shooting? At what range were the game taken? (And, for that question about FPE, it really ought to be at the point of impact, not the muzzle since that is where the damage is done.)
The biggest problem with going with the marginal shots, either because you aren't sure you have enough gun and are using the data to justify them or you aren't willing to do the field work, shooting various loads/animals and talking with other hunters to see how they have fared, is that you often end up maiming the game. You might be able to hit President Franklin ten times out of ten seated at the bench with wind flags, but you might completely miss a silver dollar off hand at ten feet. I guess what I'm saying is you have to keep it real and, as Dirty Harry said, "know your limitations". They you can compile your OWN chart.
Here's what I really like when it comes to "internet loads", the Gamo and others hunting "wild boar" with their air guns. Ask a lot of powder burner hunters what they consider good for wild boar and you will hear things like .44 Magnum. So, how come they use that when they could just as easily use a .22 Short? I mean, the Short is more powerful than most springers.
Yeah I thought that video on youtube of the guy killing a wild boar with a hunter extreme .177 was hilarious. That to me just seems completely impossible, but who knows. Personally, I just ordered a Hatsan 125 Sniper .22 and when I do go hunting with it I'm not going to hunt anything bigger than a rabbit. When I do my target shooting I always shoot off hand because I already know I can get near perfect groups at 15 yards bench rested. I like the chair gun program though. It gives me a rough estimate of trajectory and fpe. I'll have to compare my actual results to these charts to see how accurate they really are though.
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Red feather, this was the video I was talking about. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugyO7dcF1n8#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugyO7dcF1n8#ws)
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Wow guys,
Theres a ton of great info in this thread. Ive been an air gun hunter for a few years now and my most common quary is tree and ground squirrels. I have taken most with my 1377c and Gamo Big Cat 1200. The 1377c is my favorite for the ground squirrels because im usually within 10 yards and my stock internals and a good scooe i place my shots at the base of the head from behind. They drop dead every time. I know using 7.9g Destroyer pellets im doing about 510 fps. Now keep in mind I'm at 10 yards or maybe 11-12 but not much more. I know my skill to place a shot at that range will be as humane as possible.
On a note about knowing your prey a ground squirrel head is much harder than the tree squirrel. Why? Got me. I just know from experience that i need my gamo for a head shot on a ground squirrel.
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I think we need to outlaw the Gamo/PBA/pig video..
Anyway, this minimum FPE list looks almost identical to the #'s I posted on the GTA 2 or more years ago. Someone took it and put it up on the Yellow back then, and I also ran into it on 1 or 2 other forums. I compiled this list from my experience of shooting many hundreds of critters with low and mid-powered airguns such as Crosman 760 pumper and other pumpers, CO2 pistols, 12fpe 850 .22 and 14fpe Diana 36 .177, as well as 1 or 2 other 20+fpe Magnum Springers, at various distances where I know what the velocity & FPE is using my Chrony and Chairgun.
Anyway, I did not claim these #'s should be the "law", or are 100% but only what I experienced, and is my opinion only, and was for my own use for a long time. I also stated there is always a certain +/- error margin, or at least +/- 1 or more FPE depending on the pellet.. I felt compelled to reply one day to 1 of many posts here over the years asking about minimum FPE for different critters, so I posted it a list, which happens to be extremely close if not the same as this one. I did not expect it to circulate to different forums but it did.
And to answer a couple of people's question, yes, it is FPE on impact, NOT at the muzzle.
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I think we need to outlaw the Gamo/PBA/pig video..
Sorry, I'm not into "censorship" . . . It is what it is !
Dave
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That was really more of a joke. I forgot to put a smiley face after it.
Actually most of us do not condone this video nor agree with PBA's marketing strategy. To tell all your prospective buyers and current Gamo owners that you can go out and harvest pigs or wild boar with a .177 Springer is ludicrous. The pig in the video was also shot from a few feet away, so that a large portion of the muzzle energy was retained (if in fact it was shot with the gun mentioned). PBA ammo have a poor ballistic coefficient and lose energy (fpe) real fast. Had the same shot been taken from 20yds or even 15yds, that pig would be ripping up roots in someone's field right now.
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That was really more of a joke. I forgot to put a smiley face after it.
Actually most of us do not condone this video nor agree with PBA's marketing strategy. To tell all your prospective buyers and current Gamo owners that you can go out and harvest pigs or wild boar with a .177 Springer is ludicrous. The pig in the video was also shot from a few feet away, so that a large portion of the muzzle energy was retained (if in fact it was shot with the gun mentioned). PBA ammo have a poor ballistic coefficient and lose energy (fpe) real fast. Had the same shot been taken from 20yds or even 15yds, that pig would be ripping up roots in someone's field right now.
Harry,
OK . . . I'm cool with it . . . LOL !
As for the GAMO claims, I agree that they should NEVER have shown a video of a .177 killing a Hog. Unfortunately for the airgun hobby, they may find themselves in litigation when someone gives it a go and gets "ripped a new one" by a Boar !
Dave
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It's hard to tell what is going on in that video. Basically you have a camera to the shooter's right looking down at the pig. And a camera to the left shooting up at the shooter. Then the edits show the pig going down. Then cut back to the guy celebrating.
It would be EXTREMELY easy to fake that. None of the cameras show him shooting the pig. They edit from two different angles but there is no way to tell if he shot the pig or someone else, such as one of those guys milling around in the background did. I'm not video savy enough to say for sure they faked it, but it sure would be easy to do.
Let's put it this way, You could have one camera showing an old lady taking aim at an elephant with a slingshot. The other camera shows the elephant going down (with appropriate sound effects). Then you cut back showing the old lady celebrating. None of the cameras showed the lady actually killing the elephant. It would look real, but what does your logic and intuition tell you? My logic and intuition tells me this is fake and pure marketing.
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It would look real, but what does your logic and intuition tell you?
It tells me "don't mess with Granny" . . . LOL !
Seriously, those GAMO videos are "questionable, at best.
Dave
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After reading through this thread a couple things were touched on, but seem to be worth more consideration.
The first is energy drop-off by distance. For example: a .22 pellet seems to lose about 10% fpe @ 20yards.
And I believe that energy loss for a projectile follows a curve (isn't linear). So as the distance increases, the energy lost is some exponentially greater amount.
So it seems that knowing your gun's energy at the muzzle and being able to estimate the distance of your quarry to calculate the energy at impact could be very helpful.
The other thing I think worth mentioning is pellet deformation. Knowing how your pellet of choice behaves after impact, or what it does as it travels into (and out of) your game greatly affects whether or not the kill can be humane.
And that too, should match the game you intend to hunt. For example, you could possibly shoot a small, lightweight pellet very quickly clean through a particular animal, where the fpe would seem OK, but the pellet does very little damage and the animal suffers.
And conversely, you could shoot a heavy pellet designed for maximum expansion much slower (lower fpe) but get a humane kill because of the greater internal damage it causes.
SB
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Can't stand Charts !
There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number
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Yea right in an ideal world with a PERFECT fuse box shot !!
More unfortunate critters get maimed to crawl elsewhere and suffer or die from such low power shots from dime store power bb guns / air rifles that fall under or at those power levels.
Just my opinion, only critters to fall reliably under those power levels are small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats.
But then again a lucky or correctly placed shot is like a LIGHTNING bolt even from a bb gun ... go figure.
JMO ... nuttin more
So you have experience then? I have dropped a few Raccoon in in my time with 7 to 8 FPE air guns. Never maimed a one, all clean kills.
So how many have you maimed to form your opinion?
And you need that "PERFECT fuse box shot" no matter how powerful your rifle is. I do not care if you are taking pigeon with a 21FPE gun, you better have as perfect of a shot as some one with 2FPE at target has to take that pigeon.
Also I believe that the numbers represent the Power at Target, not the power at muzzle.
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Can't stand Charts !
There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number
what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.
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Can't stand Charts !
There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number
what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.
+1 :) .
I have never understood those that go by it must be xFPE or else. There are so many variables to consider that can not bo covered by these statements of numbers. If you know you can make a clean kill with your gun on your prey then good.
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I have killed a BUNCH of things with an air gun.
I always rely on my pellet/bullet being able to penetrate to vital organs whether that be the brain or heart/lung shot.
As long as I can punch a hole in the organ I will harvest my game.
I know ahead of time what shot I am looking for on a particular game animal based on the penetation capabilities of my air gun.
The ONLY part FPE plays for me relates to how much penetration I get at what distance.
Example - My 30 ft lb 2540 Carbine gets 'x' inches of penetration at 25 yards using JSB Kings.
When I body shoot ground squirrels they drop like lightning regardless of the shot angle - side to side or end to end - doesn't matter because my pellets reaches the vital organs.
That same air gun can drop a whitetail deer like lightning if I pick a vital target my pellet can reach = brain shot.
I am not advocating doing that, just setting the premise for how I personally select the airgun of choice for the day.
If I am squirrel/coyote hunting I bring my 80 ft lb 25 cal shooting 52 grain cast bullets.
That load blows clean through one side of a steel 55 gallon drum at 50 yards and nothing short of 12" of bone and muscle is stopping it.
If we had to put 'numbers' on things relating to FPE it should be as a guide for inches of penetration per caliber.
I think Bobs liquid soap would be a great test media.
Head shots:
Squirrel = 1"
Rabbit = 2"
Raccoon = 3"
Etc...
Body shots should be the depth to vital organs.
Whatever those numbers are (by game animal) you should use a gun capable of doing TWICE the required penetrating depth to cover angles or hitting solid bone instead of porous bone.
If a deers vitals are 7" inside the body cavity your gun should be able to penetrate 14".
The SIZE of the hole you make (read: caliber) needs to correspond to the size of the game for a quick bleed out and humane kill.
As a very generic rule of thumb I use 1 FPE per 1 lb of animal weight - my penetration example takes precedence over that though.
That is my $.02
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I have killed a BUNCH of things with an air gun.
I always rely on my pellet/bullet being able to penetrate to vital organs whether that be the brain or heart/lung shot.
As long as I can punch a hole in the organ I will harvest my game.
I know ahead of time what shot I am looking for on a particular game animal based on the penetation capabilities of my air gun.
The ONLY part FPE plays for me relates to how much penetration I get at what distance.
yes, knowing how far your AG penetrates with different pellets is what is important. I'll give the lowest FPE example AG I have. My P17 ...3fpe. With most pellets the pellets bounces off of an aerosol can at 10 yards. With Gamo red fires it penetrates the 1st side and stays inside. With Crosman 5.5 it zips through both sides at the same distance and goes through several layers of cardboard before stopping. Same AG, different pellets.
Now this same P17 has taken quite a few chippers at 10 yards or less. But not after 1st testing penetration on a fresh killed chipper.
Extremely small pest, yes. But a perfect example on shot placement, KNOWING not only where the vitals are, but knowing where they lay at every angle, how far you need to penetrate at every angle to reach the vitals. And there is only one way to know with 100% certainty. And that is to test your AG on a dead critter . And PASS on EVERY shot until the ones show themselves that you know with 100% certainty you can pull off a clean 1 shot kill.
Patience, stalking skills and more patience are needed. If I am out with the P17 on chipper or rat patrol I pass on a LOT of shots. And only take the ones I know with 100% certainty will work. From testing and experience.
Charts and math can not even come close to figuring all of this out. As Manny said, far too many variables.
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Your P17 is a great example of penetration from the low power side of things.
My 1 FPE for 1# body weight is what I teach in my Modern Air Gun class which is a 3 hour class plus 1 hour range time afterward using everything from .177 @ 6 ft lbs up to my .357 @ 220 ft lbs.
It is a class I developed to inform interested people about modern air guns and what they can be used for.
It was also developed to help me get air guns as a legal method of take for big game on the books here in Idaho.
The 1 FPE/1# weight is the easiest formula to remember along with knowing how much penetration your quarry will require.
What is the best pellet/bullet?
EASY! The one that shoots the teeny tiny group out of your gun.
How much penetration can you get from it?
EASY! Buy a couple of pork roasts and shoot them. Just eat around the hole when you cook it for dinner that night.
My pilot class is on Sunday April 20 & Thursday April 24 for local law enforcement and game wardens.
I am hoping Fish & Game will use something similar as a prerequisite to get hunters educated and endorsed for hunting big game with air guns.
My 16" 1322 with a choked LW barrel shoots any pellet I put through it into teeny little groups.
At 10 pumps it shoots a 14.3 grain JSB @ 570 fps for 10.3 ft lbs.
At 20 pumps it shoots a 21.1 grain Kodiak @ 595 fps for 16.6 ft lbs.
What pellet I load and how many pumps I put into it depends on what I am hunting - how much penetration do I require?
The only way to be certain of what it will do is shoot a pork roast at whatever the 'typical' distance I expect to get shots at game at.
I would like to see a chart that has various game animals with inches of penetration required for head shots and body shots for each game type.
I think then a solid foundation for a chart is in order. At least that is a great foundation to use as a general guide.
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Carson, I like what you are doing and teaching. You are teaching people to be responsible and take matters into their own hands. Do your own testing. Find your own results for your own gun.
My P17 is like your 1322. Shoots any pellet into tiny tiny groups. 5 shot groups the size of a .25 caliber pellet are a normal thing if I do my part, at 5 yards. SLIGHLY larger at 10 yards.
Accuracy and penetration to vitals matter. After that it is all in the shooters hands to be the responsible one.
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A figure of 5 fpe would be reasonable at Point of impact on most critters smaller than 5 lbs weight. I'd use that as a minimum for hunting. I'd say if you look at the Coyote as a 40 lb critter needing 40-50 FPE to dispatch cleanly (the scale seems to work). Some critters are particularly rugged like Squirrels and Jack Rabbits which would require more punch, but some are light duty like Cottontails.
TimmyMac1
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Thanks guys...
I think it is VITAL to educate local law enforcement and game wardens so they have an idea of what their looking at if they happen across a full blown adult air gun.
Especially considering all of the shrouds and professional muzzle devices they are likely to encounter.
I have an entire section on suppressors and how the law relates to them in the State of Idaho.
I fully explain Federal Law regarding air guns and expand on Idaho House Bills 589 & 219 which are current State law in favor of possessing and using those devices.
I even include copies of the law and bills for the students review.
Even if I'm the only true air gun enthusiast for 500 square miles, I don't want law enforcement getting all wrapped around the axle if they encounter me out and about hunting with a big ole Clague on the end of my Recluse!
I want them educated on exactly what they are looking at and what the law states.
I am getting off track here, but FPE required for whatever game is really just the tip of the iceburg to an entire venue of education that should be made available to new shooters.
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Thanks guys...
I think it is VITAL to educate local law enforcement and game wardens so they have an idea of what their looking at if they happen across a full blown adult air gun.
Especially considering all of the shrouds and professional muzzle devices they are likely to encounter.
I have an entire section on suppressors and how the law relates to them in the State of Idaho.
I fully explain Federal Law regarding air guns and expand on Idaho House Bills 589 & 219 which are current State law in favor of possessing and using those devices.
I even include copies of the law and bills for the students review.
Even if I'm the only true air gun enthusiast for 500 square miles, I don't want law enforcement getting all wrapped around the axle if they encounter me out and about hunting with a big ole Clague on the end of my Recluse!
I want them educated on exactly what they are looking at and what the law states.
I am getting off track here, but FPE required for whatever game is really just the tip of the iceburg to an entire venue of education that should be made available to new shooters.
This country needs more people like you Mike.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khrJwZLOn6s&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkhrJwZLOn6s&has_verified=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khrJwZLOn6s&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkhrJwZLOn6s&has_verified=1)
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That was an interesting video but a bit one sided to sell the FX Boss.
Also the comment of 'shooting game larger than sould be shot with an airgun' is coming from the standpoint of a place that simply does not even HAVE true big bore air guns.
The 12 ft lb gun should never have been shot at 50 yards. If it had been shot at 20 yards I am sure the penetration results would have been quite different.
I like 30+ ft lb guns in PCP for hunting everything from squirrels to rabbits in .22 and .25 caliber. Never lost one yet to a body shot :)
I will work on a chart that shows inches of penetration required for each game type and target area and post it when I'm done.
I am going to add that as one of my powerpoint slides.
How many ft lbs per caliber = inches of penetraton will require field testing....just another excuse to shoot stuff!!!
;D
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Good postings Mike
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That was an interesting video but a bit one sided to sell the FX Boss.
Also the comment of 'shooting game larger than sould be shot with an airgun' is coming from the standpoint of a place that simply does not even HAVE true big bore air guns.
The 12 ft lb gun should never have been shot at 50 yards. If it had been shot at 20 yards I am sure the penetration results would have been quite different.
I like 30+ ft lb guns in PCP for hunting everything from squirrels to rabbits in .22 and .25 caliber. Never lost one yet to a body shot :)
I will work on a chart that shows inches of penetration required for each game type and target area and post it when I'm done.
I am going to add that as one of my powerpoint slides.
How many ft lbs per caliber = inches of penetraton will require field testing....just another excuse to shoot stuff!!!
;D
No I agree 100% its a bit one sided as there are many guns that can make that shot at 50yards in .25 also. It was just to see the difference at 50yards in ftlb. Thats all, I thought that it was interesting...
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I love real world testing but I don't have a bunch of cadaver targets.
I agree with you, LOTS of production .25's that will do the same as the Boss.
There is a video done in Mexico with a Recluse shooting a cast bullet at a domestic pig head - full penetration!
I will talk to my local butcher and see what I can come up with.
The only other way I can see having similar muscle/bone structure to most small to medium critters for a testing media is to shoot a chicken or turkey broadside.
I agree Manny - just too many variables to say matter of factly that this many such and such is good for this such and such target.
I am sure if all of us do some real world penetration tests on different representative media we can come up with a solidly based scientific data and make a 'baseline' to recommend for various game.
LET THE SHOOTING BEGIN!!!
:)
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Here is a starter - what is your input?
I will conduct testing this next week for hard data, but this is a starting reference point.
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Nobody has any input on this?
My premise for testing will be this:
Using standard weight for caliber domed pellets, how mant ft lbs does it take to achieve 'x' inches of penetration on test media similar to game being taken.
The required ft lbs recommended for a body shot will be the amount required to achieve twice the amount of penetration to reach the vitals.
That way penetration can be decreased or increased by ammo selection (hollow point, pointed or cast bullet).
Anybody have any disagreements on inches of penetration needed to reach the vitals on what I listed?
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Nobody has any input on this?
My premise for testing will be this:
Using standard weight for caliber domed pellets, how mant ft lbs does it take to achieve 'x' inches of penetration on test media similar to game being taken.
The required ft lbs recommended for a body shot will be the amount required to achieve twice the amount of penetration to reach the vitals.
That way penetration can be decreased or increased by ammo selection (hollow point, pointed or cast bullet).
Anybody have any disagreements on inches of penetration needed to reach the vitals on what I listed?
looked at it quick this am.
1) I have killed weasels at up to 18 yards with a .177 caliber 880. Not much skull bone there to penetrate
2) I think if you shoot a black bear with any AG you are crazy... not in a good way
3) skunks die easy with a head shot from a .177
just a quick assessment.
thanks for taking the time to do this
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Man is a curios creature. He attemps to quantify everthing he comes accross. How successful he is, well, that's why forums were invented to give him a chance to talk about what he thinks he knows. I wish I had kept track of how many times I thought I knew the answer only to find out I was wrong. I would be a much wiser old man. Now if I could just remember what difference this all makes. Maybe I should just squeeze the trigger and be educated by the results. The world will not be changed no matter the results. Man has loved the numbers game every since he invented it. It allows us to take ourselves more seriously.
outdoorguy
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Man is a curios creature. He attemps to quantify everthing he comes accross. How successful he is, well, that's why forums were invented to give him a chance to talk about what he thinks he knows. I wish I had kept track of how many times I thought I knew the answer only to find out I was wrong. I would be a much wiser old man. Now if I could just remember what difference this all makes. Maybe I should just squeeze the trigger and be educated by the results. The world will not be changed no matter the results. Man has loved the numbers game every since he invented it. It allows us to take ourselves more seriously.
outdoorguy
I really don't pay much attention to all the numbers. I know what works for me through experience. I tend to laugh at all of the numbers. All the while knowing darn well I have done what the numbers and math say I can't ;)
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I put Black Bear on there because they are listed as legal to hunt using a .35 caliber or larger PCP in Arizona.
Check Page 108 of their Method of Take regulations (listed in their Hunt pamphlet).
Would I take a Black Bear with my tuned Recluse?
Depends. Ground level with the bear maybe not a good idea. From an elevated tree stand I think I would go for it.
The numbers help new airgunners buy the right equipment for their needs;
It also puts some hard data behind trying to get airguns on the books to hunt big game with in our State.
No data = no serious look at it from the powers that be.
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My starting point I will begin testing from is listed in the attached chart.
I have it broken down into TWO categories: Brain shots and Heart/Lung shots
Each category lists minimum calibers based on the diameter of the projectile to cause enough tissue damage to effectively incapacitate the intended target (brain/heart/lungs).
These tests are only to confirm that the particular projectile at 'x' foot pounds can be delivered consistently through the required depth of ballistic media to reach the vital organ targeted.
It does not consider hydrostatic shock, hydraulic cavitation, temporary or permanent wound channels - so please don't flame me for some of the starting points I listed.
I do feel the minimum calibers shown are good ones for taking heart/lung shots on the game they are listed next to.
My ballistic media will be water soaked newsprint (it's cheap!) with some form of barrier to represent the individual thicknesses for brain shots equivelant to skull thickness of the intended species.
I will try to duplicate elasticity for the varying skin thicknesses for body shots too.
Testing will begin mid next week.............................
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My starting point I will begin testing from is listed in the attached chart.
I have it broken down into TWO categories: Brain shots and Heart/Lung shots
Each category lists minimum calibers based on the diameter of the projectile to cause enough tissue damage to effectively incapacitate the intended target (brain/heart/lungs).
These tests are only to confirm that the particular projectile at 'x' foot pounds can be delivered consistently through the required depth of ballistic media to reach the vital organ targeted.
It does not consider hydrostatic shock, hydraulic cavitation, temporary or permanent wound channels - so please don't flame me for some of the starting points I listed.
I do feel the minimum calibers shown are good ones for taking heart/lung shots on the game they are listed next to.
My ballistic media will be water soaked newsprint (it's cheap!) with some form of barrier to represent the individual thicknesses for brain shots equivelant to skull thickness of the intended species.
I will try to duplicate elasticity for the varying skin thicknesses for body shots too.
Testing will begin mid next week.............................
All I can say is WOW, and WHY WHY WHY...........?
Make something more valuable of your time.
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Carson, since you explained why, I understand. Will the state listen? Who knows.
I will of course continue to do what I know works from experience. However I do understand the why
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My starting point I will begin testing from is listed in the attached chart.
I have it broken down into TWO categories: Brain shots and Heart/Lung shots
Each category lists minimum calibers based on the diameter of the projectile to cause enough tissue damage to effectively incapacitate the intended target (brain/heart/lungs).
These tests are only to confirm that the particular projectile at 'x' foot pounds can be delivered consistently through the required depth of ballistic media to reach the vital organ targeted.
It does not consider hydrostatic shock, hydraulic cavitation, temporary or permanent wound channels - so please don't flame me for some of the starting points I listed.
I do feel the minimum calibers shown are good ones for taking heart/lung shots on the game they are listed next to.
My ballistic media will be water soaked newsprint (it's cheap!) with some form of barrier to represent the individual thicknesses for brain shots equivelant to skull thickness of the intended species.
I will try to duplicate elasticity for the varying skin thicknesses for body shots too.
Testing will begin mid next week.............................
All I can say is WOW, and WHY WHY WHY...........?
Make something more valuable of your time.
really ? ...that's how you learn, when you decide to shoot at animals you better know exactly what your gun/guns are capable off.
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I put Black Bear on there because they are listed as legal to hunt using a .35 caliber or larger PCP in Arizona.
Check Page 108 of their Method of Take regulations (listed in their Hunt pamphlet).
Would I take a Black Bear with my tuned Recluse?
Depends. Ground level with the bear maybe not a good idea. From an elevated tree stand I think I would go for it.
The numbers help new airgunners buy the right equipment for their needs;
It also puts some hard data behind trying to get airguns on the books to hunt big game with in our State.
No data = no serious look at it from the powers that be.
I'll go on a Bear hunt with you
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All I can say is WOW, and WHY WHY WHY...........?
Make something more valuable of your time.
As he already said, numbers/data are needed to try to get laws changed.
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First off, I see no other way I would rather spend my two days off than getting cozy with all of my air guns doing something other than punching paper and throwing good lead down range for nothing.....besides, the ground squirrels aren't out of hibernation yet! :'(
Manny, you're on for that bear hunt! ;D
Your hunts are what made me change brain shots on a wild boar to 22 caliber.
I can tell you from experience if you present a very well informed and documened case including well researched hard data via scientific method it has a massive positive influence on the outcome you are trying to achieve.
I have a couple of e mails and phone calls into the Arizona Fish & Game Dept asking for their research data on air guns that swayed them into adopting the laws they have on the books, but they must be busy...
If I get Idaho to see things my way maybe my efforts can be used in other States across the country.
I already have a full blown lesson plan and class put together for hunters education, so let's see where this goes.........
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I know the "why he does it", but why do all the work, and not use proper ballistic media and skins. If you need to change laws, you need something other than a redneck approach, I would hope. Are the dept that easy to sway?
If so, best of luck to you, but the hole, "minimum kill force", is a wrong entry point. That just makes for the "Ooweeh look at me, I just killed a bison with my Diana 34, at 80 yards" people crawling out from under their stones...
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That is exactly why there are caliber restrictions so some idiot doesn't try doing exactly that.
The premise is to get away from the entire 'minimum foot pounds' approach because that is why most states do not allow air gun hunting in the first place!
Needing 500 ft lbs to kill a deer is garbage and that is what these penetration tests prove - but the question needs to be answered 'what is the minimum ft lbs required to reach the vitals?' to prove my point.
Data needs to be presented not opinions.
I am trying to get a minimum of .35 caliber PCP's on the books in my State.
My factory Recluse is a 147 ft lb gun - I promise you at 50 yards I will still get a pass through on a whitetail with a body shot using 77 grain JSB pellets.
I only advocate body shots but since I will be testing why not entertain the brain shots too?
Manny has proven over and over hunter skill level will bring home the bacon (literally!) with something most people look down upon as being undergunned.
The Devils Advocate approach is nice but just proves WHY this needs to be done.
Ballistic gel is very expensive and I already looked at temp stable alternatives.
At least my redneck data will set a baseline and open the door for the State Fish & Game to take a look at it and maybe help with 'proper' ballistic testing.
For what its worth, soaked newsprint has been an accepted penetration media for decades before ballistic gel came out.
I am talking to my local butcher to see what I can acquire on the cheap - trimmings, fat, hide, etc...
I just KNOW if nothing else I can use soaked newsprint.
Did you even look at my chart?
What are YOU doing to try and advance this sport?
Not being hostile or anything - this type of unacceptance or a willingness to undertake this on your own is why this is such a slow process.
If more people would contribute hard data and documentation there could be a resource people like me could pull from to assist in getting game laws on the books.
There is nothing in Idaho that says I 'CAN'T' hunt deer wih an air gun - it says no rimfires and no fully automatic guns.
I want it in black and white in the regulations that says I 'CAN'.
Maybe once data and documentation is compiled the GTA Mods can put it together as a sticky resource in the Hunting Gate.
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@CarsonRatSniper:
Interesting data in your chart. May I ask how you tested to get those numbers?
And it does seem reasonable to go with caliber restrictions for getting the states on the correct track. Though do keep in mind that there are .25 cal guns that produce less than 12FPE at the muzzle. So a little more is needed.
Though from your chart a couple of my MSP .22 cal guns are enough for a head shot on Boar, and I would never take that shot with one of them. Maybe with one of my more powerful .25 cal MSPs, though not with any of my .22 MSPs.
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keep at it Carson. AG's are misunderstood for sure by the masses. HOWEVER ... I think that is a good thing. My fear is once they are understood by the lawmakers we will see even more restrictions on them. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't trust those in power
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What's an MSP ?
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I was always told: 2FPE x 1lb of animal body weight. So a 10lb raccoon would take 20FPE to humanely dispatch.
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What's an MSP ?
Multi Stroke Pneumatic.
Like the Benjamin 392, Crosman 2289, Daisy 880, Custom .25 cal pumper, etc.
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What's an MSP ?
Multi-stroke Pneumatic?
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What's an MSP ?
multi-stroke Pnuematic?
Yes as in a "Pumper".
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As a Boar you mean Hog ? .....never heard of a Pumper that gets more than 20 FPE
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I was always told: 2FPE x 1lb of animal body weight. So a 10lb raccoon would take 20FPE to humanely dispatch.
I have never killed a coon that small and always used way less power than that. I kill 20 to 25 lb coons with 12 FPE, one shot well placed in the brain and dead. Your results may vary, but I know what I can do. Coons in a trap get the 8fpe treatment point blank, inches from the brain. Dead, one shot.
Head shots are all I ever take on coons after an experience 25 years ago with a .22 powder burner and 5 shots to the engine room and the coon was still walking. #6 went to the head and it dropped. Since then brain shots only for me on them
Again, MY expriences. NOT saying this is what YOU or anyone else should do.
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As a Boar you mean Hog ? .....never heard of a Pumper that gets more than 20 FPE
392 Billet Steroid will deliver over 25 FPE. It takes 14 pumps and normally 12 will get you 20+ FPE
TimmyMac1
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OK I stand corrected 25 FPE :)
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I was always told: 2FPE x 1lb of animal body weight. So a 10lb raccoon would take 20FPE to humanely dispatch.
I have never killed a coon that small and always used way less power than that. I kill 20 to 25 lb coons with 12 FPE, one shot well placed in the brain and dead. Your results may vary, but I know what I can do. Coons in a trap get the 8fpe treatment point blank, inches from the brain. Dead, one shot.
Head shots are all I ever take on coons after an experience 25 years ago with a .22 powder burner and 5 shots to the engine room and the coon was still walking. #6 went to the head and it dropped. Since then brain shots only for me on them
Again, MY expriences. NOT saying this is what YOU or anyone else should do.
The 10# coon was only a hypothetical number. The 2FPE x 1lb formula is just a rule of thumb so as to cover head or vital organ shots & still does not cover 100% of all situations. 8FPE point blank is at the muzzle, not out beyond 25yds, where velocity/FPE has dropped.
Even a blank gun can kill you if you hold it to the side of your head.
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As a Boar you mean Hog ? .....never heard of a Pumper that gets more than 20 FPE
I was only saying that his chart puts a head shot Boar kill at 16FPE and most of my .22 cal pumpers can do more than that.
I would never take that shot with a .22 cal pumper.
Most .25 cal pumpers produce more than 27FPE (including the 2 a friend made for me).
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I was always told: 2FPE x 1lb of animal body weight. So a 10lb raccoon would take 20FPE to humanely dispatch.
I have never killed a coon that small and always used way less power than that. I kill 20 to 25 lb coons with 12 FPE, one shot well placed in the brain and dead. Your results may vary, but I know what I can do. Coons in a trap get the 8fpe treatment point blank, inches from the brain. Dead, one shot.
Yes and a 9FPE Pumper can do it at close range with the correct pellet (I have done it) for a 25 pound coon.
Head shots are all I ever take on coons after an experience 25 years ago with a .22 powder burner and 5 shots to the engine room and the coon was still walking. #6 went to the head and it dropped. Since then brain shots only for me on them
Agreed 100%.
Again, MY expriences. NOT saying this is what YOU or anyone else should do.
Yes I would not recommend it either. It can be a bit dangerous.
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I was always told: 2FPE x 1lb of animal body weight. So a 10lb raccoon would take 20FPE to humanely dispatch.
I have never killed a coon that small and always used way less power than that. I kill 20 to 25 lb coons with 12 FPE, one shot well placed in the brain and dead. Your results may vary, but I know what I can do. Coons in a trap get the 8fpe treatment point blank, inches from the brain. Dead, one shot.
Head shots are all I ever take on coons after an experience 25 years ago with a .22 powder burner and 5 shots to the engine room and the coon was still walking. #6 went to the head and it dropped. Since then brain shots only for me on them
Again, MY expriences. NOT saying this is what YOU or anyone else should do.
The 10# coon was only a hypothetical number. The 2FPE x 1lb formula is just a rule of thumb so as to cover head or vital organ shots & still does not cover 100% of all situations. 8FPE point blank is at the muzzle, not out beyond 25yds, where velocity/FPE has dropped.
Even a blank gun can kill you if you hold it to the side of your head.
which of course is WHY I said point blank in a trap. I NEVER said I would try that at 25 yards with a .177. I don't talk hypotheticals. I'm only interested in real world results.
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I think your chart is poorly misleading for some one that lacks knowledge. The MAIN IDEA behind any hunting is to dispatch your game as quickly and humanely as possible. Are you serious with your 2, 3 fpe on most of these animals??? Of all of them, a raccoon and ground hog for their size are incredibly tough animals. You should get some correct info before you post such poor info.
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I think your chart is down right garbage and very poorly misleading for some one that lacks knowledge. The MAIN IDEA behind any hunting is to dispatch your game as quickly and humanely as possible. Are you serious with your 2, 3 fpe on most of these animals??? Of all of them, a raccoon and ground hog for their size are incredibly tough animals. You should get some correct info before you post such bs.
in violation of rules # 2, #6 and # 13.
We are a friendly forum who can respectfully disagree.
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Hammer - if you would have actually READ and UNDERSTOOD my postings you would know that ZERO testing has been done and my chart is an absolute boiler plate starting point for which I will BEGIN testing from.
You should actually pay attention to what you are reading and learn how to control your emotions on how you react.
The ONE thing I can say with 100% CERTAINTY is a 20 grain .22 caliber moving at 500 fps will absolitely kill a deer with a brain shot. I use Aguila Super Colibris in my North American Arms Black Widow with a 2" barrel for my coupe de gras gun.
My son shot a 135# doe at 50 yards with a 150 grain soft point from his 30/30. It hit her a bit farther back than intended and she was still trying to get up when we got to her.
One Super Colibri to the back of her head and she was instant lights out.
It really doesn't matter if you agree or not - this is hard data on what gets to the organ.
Go back and read my postings again: I only advocate body shots!
This kind of knee jerk reaction is what I get from a lot of people who base what they say on nothing more than their OPINION!
I don't care how you 'feel' about it - I care about real world hardcore data results.
We can debate morality later......
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point blank Carson? I assume so by your wording. THIS to me is very good information. Thanks!
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@CarsonRatSniper:
Thank you very much for attempting to give hard data. I know that a 11FPE .22 AirGun shooting a 21.2 grain bullet (yes I said bullet [one for a black powder muzzle loader]) will take a small buck Deer every time with a well placed head shot.
I do not cut it that close any more, though when young I used to do this with 392.
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It was a 'contact' shot - very point blank ;D
Tomorrow I start testing - I will post results but won't be able to update my chart until I'm back at work on Saturday........
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When i was younger and dumber i used to shoot cows out in a friends backyard pasture with a 1970's daisy co2 pistol of some kind. With an absolute perfectly placed shot they would sometimes moo and kick a bit. Otherwise they would ignore me. :P
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It was a 'contact' shot - very point blank ;D
Tomorrow I start testing - I will post results but won't be able to update my chart until I'm back at work on Saturday........
Which was it, contact, or point blank? With most of my guns and scopes Point blank is the range from 9 yards to 28 yards.
See:
http://www.arld1.com/images/swfs/trajectorypbr2.swf (http://www.arld1.com/images/swfs/trajectorypbr2.swf)
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Please guys keep it civil or the thread will go bye bye
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It was a 'contact' shot - very point blank ;D
Tomorrow I start testing - I will post results but won't be able to update my chart until I'm back at work on Saturday........
Which was it, contact, or point blank? With most of my guns and scopes Point blank is the range from 9 yards to 28 yards.
See:
http://www.arld1.com/images/swfs/trajectorypbr2.swf (http://www.arld1.com/images/swfs/trajectorypbr2.swf)
When I say point blank I mean inches from the target.
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Contact = muzzle was touching the target.
;D = Sarcasm at HOW point blank
I always sight my guns in based on MPBR and diameter of the kill zone but that is a subject for another thread.
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Contact = muzzle was touching the target.
;D = Sarcasm at HOW point blank
I always sight my guns in based on MPBR and diameter of the kill zone but that is a subject for another thread.
Ok thank you for that clarification. I had actually asked because I was curious which you meant.
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Ok guys, I am ready to make recommendations on .177 & .22 for body shots.
It works out to these figures:
.177 = 3.5 ft lbs / inch of penetration
.22 = 4.5 ft lbs / inch of penetration
Ballistic media was newsprint cut into 5"T x 4.5"W squares, stacked together, soaked in water overnight then drained for 30 minutes this morning.
The stack I tested with was 8" in total thickness (depth).
The stack was isolated in a cardboard box so no movement would occur upon impact and the face of the box was removed so the projectile directly impacted the stack.
My chronograph was placed 1" away from the face of the stack and the muzzle was 1' from the chronograph - shot distance was roughly 2'.
I used a .125" wooden dowel pushed into the stack to the rear of the pellet and that distance was recorded on the dowel then measured with a micrometer.
Here is the data:
.177
8.0 grains
584.4 fps
1.665" penetration
6.1 ft lbs
3.66 ft lbs/inch
.177
10.6 grains
519.1 fps
1.823" penetration
6.3 ft lbs
3.46 ft lbs/inch
The 8.0 grain was a Beeman Bearcub and the 10.6 grain was a Beeman Kodiak. I attribute the lower ft lbs/inch of the Kodiak to nose profile not heavier weight. The Bearcub is a slightly rounded wadcutter and not standard dome shaped.
.22
14.3 grains
424.5 fps
1.576" penetration
5.8 ft lbs
3.68 ft lbs/inch
.22
14.3 grains
789.7 fps
4.240" penetration
19.8 ft lbs
4.67 ft lbs/inch
.22
18.1 grains
726.7 fps
4.662" penetration
21.3 ft lbs
4.57 ft lbs/inch
.25
25.4 grains
737.2 fps
5.670" penetration
30.6 ft lbs
5.4 ft lbs/inch
I have not concluded .25 caliber yet as I am soaking more media to test at 65 ft lbs.
.357 will be using 77 grain pellets on Low power which is still 880 fps and 130 ft lbs out of my gun but it's what I have.
I have a couple of coconuts for skull testing using the smaller calibers ;D
If anybody wants pictures PM me your e mail address and I will send them to you.
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Coconut tests.......
Not as scientific - placed it on the ground, picked a spot on it and shot it from 4' away.
Shot was made straight on - no angles from point of impact.
Coconut was FULL of water and very hard on the outside.
Hard Shell = .160" thick
With meat = .600" thick
.177 @ 6.1 ft lbs = bounced off / left slight mark on outer shell
.22 @ 5.8 ft lbs = bounced off / left slight mark on outer shell
.22 @ 19.8 ft lbs = blew straight in / no exit
.25 @ 30.6 ft lbs = blew straight in / coconut jumped 6" / no exit
This was a thick coconut (6"W x 5"T). It would represent larger game with fairly heavy skull structure.
The .25 was well mushroomed and had clearly passed through the coconut and bounced off of the opposite side where it damaged the meat but did not crack the shell.
The .22 was also well mushroomed and was still imbedded in the meat opposite the entry side.
The coconut best represents living skull bone in hardness and porousness with some 'bounce'.
If you try this yourselves make sure to wear safety glasses. The low powered .22 pellet ricocheted off of my right shoulder.
Again, I do not advocate brain shots. This falls under 'useful knowledge' data in case you need a coupe de gras or are a trapper who chooses an air gun over a rimfire.
Keep in mind how many inches of tissue is covering the skull at the eye/ear junction as this needs to be defeated on the way in.
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The coconut best represents living skull bone in hardness and porousness with some 'bounce'.
In what animal does this represent? Opossum, Hog, ?
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That's a great question.
I would have to say a wild hog based on one guy in Sacramento who did a full blown video test on a fresh wild hog head using his Mrod and 25.4 grain Kings at 100 yards.
He cut the head in half lengthwise with a band saw after he shot it to show wound tracts and I would say the skull thickness at the vulnerable points was very close to the thickness of my test coconut.
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The results are in!!!
I have to admit, I was a bit surprised - but they do confirm what some of us have known for years...you do not need some uber magnum to penetrate the vitals and kill game.
Here is todays results:
.25 caliber
25.4 grain
737.2 fps
5.670" penetration
30.6 ft lbs
5.4 ft lbs/inch
.25 caliber
25.4 grain
1014 fps
9.625" penetration
58 ft lbs
6.03 ft lbs/inch
.357 caliber
77.62 grains
636 fps
10.188" penetration
70 ft lbs
6.87 ft lbs/inch
.357 caliber
77.62 grains
998 fps
14.5" penetration
172 ft lbs
11.8 6ft lbs/inch
The surprising part is the depth I got from the high end of .25 compared to the low end of .357.
The biggest noticeable difference in the .35 performance was the SIZE of the wound channel at the high power setting.
There was definitely hydraulic cavitation and hydrostatic shock occuring - the low power channel was a decent .35 caliber tract however the high power tract was easily .50" in diameter.
My testing is to get a hole in the organ so I will base my recommendation on the lower power level.
So, here are my recommendations based in ballistic media testing:
.177 = 3.5 ft lbs/inch
.22 = 4.5 ft lbs/inch
.25 = 5.5 ft lbs/inch
.35 = 7 ft lbs/inch
I will update my chart to reflect 'unobstructed broadside shots' in inches per game species this weekend.
Comment? Questions? Smart remarks?
;D
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The fpe numbers from Dr Beeman's chart are at the target, not at the muzzle. He is saying that the pellet needs x fpe when it hits it's target, to exact a clean kill.
I think the confusion comes from us usually speaking about a guns fpe at the muzzle. So my 20 fpe np2 (@ muzzle) with CrossmanCrossman Premier Ultra Magnum 14.3 grain pellets will have 5.6 fpe @100 yds according to my shooter app. of course that requires a 30 moa hold over to hit as well. The graph is giving me about 6" of drop at 50 yds and 10.7 fpe.
Does this make any sense?
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Interesting Read , is there a good program for calculating , pellet velocity drop?
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Something to think about ;D
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This thread gets resurrected every year it seems, and Moderators have to step in to keep things civil. Lets please do as such.
It is true this chart is what appears to be Dr. Beemans. Other airgun experts have torn this chart apart. I welcome ALL constructive input, as well as your opinions, but lets abide by the GTA rules and no name calling or anything. recent posts are not of any concern but, in the past it has been an issue.
a lot of people have put a LOT of information in here, and this thread is very very good.
Thanks folks!!!
as far as FPE, i have killed a LOT of critters with .177 springers, .22 springers, and .177, .22, and .25 PCP's. they all have there niche.
my personal rules are, Birds, Nutters, small furry critters with .177 or .22 springers. anything larger than a raccoon, i want either a heavy magnum .22 or a PCP. 20 FPE is my minimum for medium critters and i like the power of my .25 pcp for heavy stuff.
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Personally I would suggest that as a safety margin, at least half again of what you think you need in fpe should be used. For example: Think you need 10? Use 15. Purely as a little insurance at least.
Of course; fpe is only part of the story, shot placement, velocity, caliber, ammo quality and the health of the animal you're shooting are all also significant factors in whether or not your prey is going to drop from a single pellet or more. It all comes down to the exact conditions of the exact shot at that exact moment. The combination of even the same factors will result differently from animal to animal, so I think looking at the situation purely in terms of fpe is perhaps a little irresponsible, as there is far more to it than that. Just my personal opinion though, everyone ought to shoot how they are comfortable with it. Provided that the animals shot do not purposely suffer. :)
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This is what I think it SHOULD be:
1) Gray squirrel/Fox Squirrel - 6 FPE head, 9 FPE vitals
2) Eastern Cottontail/Swamp Rabbit - 5FPE head, 8 FPE vitals
3) Jack Rabbit White, Black, and Jack O' lope - 8 FPE head, 11 FPE vitals
4) Raccoon/ Bandit - 14 FPE head, 22 FPE vitals
5) Virginia Opossum/ Country Rat - 10 FPE head, 16 FPE vitals
6) Ground Hog/ Wood Chuck - 11 FPE head, 17 Vitals
7) Gray Fox - 11 FPE head, 18 vitals
8. Red Fox - 12 FPE head, 19 vitals
9) Bobcat - 15 FPE head, 25 vitals
10) Bullfrog - 5 FPE head or vitals
11) Snapping Turtle - 9 FPE head
12) Crow - 4 FPE head, 6 FPE vitals
13) Pigeon - 4 FPE head, 6 FPE vitals
14) Sparrow - 3 FPE head, 5 FPE vitals
15) Starling - 4 FPE head, 5 FPE vitals
Again, this is what I PERSONALLY think the numbers should be..
I agree, however I have seen someone shoot a raccoon in the lungs with a Daisy 880 and die. Still ran 45 yards...
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Only thing I do not understand is why less ft lbs for head shots. The skull is way more hard and dense than body tissue. There only has to be penetration to the vitals. There is no hydrostatic shock so it is like bow hunting. Hit the vitals and they are dead. Might take a minute but it is a kill shot. People say that isn't humane then bow hunting isn't humane. I haven't hunted much other than pest birds as an adult but killed lots of critters as a kid with low powered air rifles always body shots.
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I dropped a bushy tail with a head shot using a Daisy Powerline 35. Mine is very accurate up to 15yds. I don't make a practice of taking them with the Daisy (this was the only one).My Beeman is my usual choice but I have to say, with a good shot to the noggin, the Daisy dropped Mr. Nutter like a rock! I'll bet I hit it with 5fpe. I prefer hitting them with a .22 pellet with 14fpe on target.
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Old topic but.
Question may be stupid but are we talking about muzzle energy or fpe when hitting the target? I really hope last one.
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Eric, I'd definitely go with point of impact just to be safe.
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Yea right in an ideal world with a PERFECT fuse box shot !!
More unfortunate critters get maimed to crawl elsewhere and suffer or die from such low power shots from dime store power bb guns / air rifles that fall under or at those power levels.
Just my opinion, only critters to fall reliably under those power levels are small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats.
But then again a lucky or correctly placed shot is like a LIGHTNING bolt even from a bb gun ... go figure.
JMO ... nuttin more
"small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats."
I've had some experience with rats and can verify that they are VERY tough to drop unless the hit is "base of ear". My brother has double lunged several at rather close range (inder 20 yards) at my uncles farm using his .177 R9 tuned to shoot CPLs at about 14.5 fpe. All "double lunged" rats got back to the "hole under the wall" to die.
When I hunted them in the out buildings at my uncle's farm I always hook head shots with my 13fpe .177 R9 and when hit near the base of the ear it was "lights out". Rats were actually harder to drop that tree squirrels and when hit in the head there was always a "sharp crack" sound from the pellet cracking the skull.
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My Grandfather always said,
2 FPE per pound of live animal weight, at the targets range..............
and shoot for the lungs/heart area, if they can't breath, they don't live.....................always worked for me.
Tia,
Don
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Don, that's the standard I've always used also.
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My Grandfather always said,
2 FPE per pound of live animal weight, at the targets range..............
and shoot for the lungs/heart area, if they can't breath, they don't live.....................always worked for me.
Tia,
Don
Did i get this right. Let's take an example. 1322 crosman shoots approx. 460FPS in theory with a 14.3grain pellet. Chairgun app counts that a 14.3 grain pellet has 3.8fpe on target at 50 yards. So...wood pigeon weights about 1 pound. In theory you can take wood pigeon sized game easily at 50 yards and maybe further with a correct shot placement?
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Yes. 1lb pigeon x 2fpe at POI= 2fpe.
So 3.8fpe on target, is almost double what is recommended for a 1lb pigeon.
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That is an old list I started in 2007-08 and it circulated through most of the forums and got re-copied and edited a couple of times from the looks of it, but the FPE #'s are fairly accurate and indicate the minimum kinetic energy ON impact.
Harry
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That is an old list I started in 2007-08 and it circulated through most of the forums and got re-copied and edited a couple of times from the looks of it, but the FPE #'s are fairly accurate and indicate the minimum kinetic energy ON impact.
Harry
Ok. Then i think a calculate this including 1.5x correction factor with birds and 2x with medium sized game.
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That is an old list I started in 2007-08 and it circulated through most of the forums and got re-copied and edited a couple of times from the looks of it, but the FPE #'s are fairly accurate and indicate the minimum kinetic energy ON impact.
Harry
Ok. Then i think a calculate this including 1.5x correction factor with birds and 2x with medium sized game.
Really in the end it's all about shot placement, not FPE, but it's good to know you have enough FPE for peace of mind. Last thing we want is to wound the critters, so yes I believe in delivering 30% or 50% more power than needed. It certainly can't hurt, and it is our responsibility to ensure we make quick clean kills, but the main factor in achieving this remains the same - good shot placement.
Harry
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Accurate shooting is the key. On that note it is evident not many know what it is to go hungry and to hunt for food out of necessity not just for sport. It don’t matter what your talking about killing with, someone will always say your not being humane or not enough. Don’t believe me? Go post your fpe numbers on a rifle forum and see all the comments you get. God gave the animals and plants to me and you. I go for head shots. When I’m hungry enough though I’ll take a sure body shot over a iffy head shot. It’s none of y’alls place to criticize.. especially if your criticism is based on what you are or are not capable of. I know what my rifles in my hands are capable of.. and I don’t need name calling because your not as capable as me.
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Yea right in an ideal world with a PERFECT fuse box shot !!
More unfortunate critters get maimed to crawl elsewhere and suffer or die from such low power shots from dime store power bb guns / air rifles that fall under or at those power levels.
Just my opinion, only critters to fall reliably under those power levels are small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats.
But then again a lucky or correctly placed shot is like a LIGHTNING bolt even from a bb gun ... go figure.
JMO ... nuttin more
"small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats."
I've had some experience with rats and can verify that they are VERY tough to drop unless the hit is "base of ear". My brother has double lunged several at rather close range (inder 20 yards) at my uncles farm using his .177 R9 tuned to shoot CPLs at about 14.5 fpe. All "double lunged" rats got back to the "hole under the wall" to die.
When I hunted them in the out buildings at my uncle's farm I always hook head shots with my 13fpe .177 R9 and when hit near the base of the ear it was "lights out". Rats were actually harder to drop that tree squirrels and when hit in the head there was always a "sharp crack" sound from the pellet cracking the skull.
Fully agree with your assessment Ed.
I’ve killed hundreds of rats with various airguns and in the very early stages I quickly learned that double lung shots shots won’t drop rats in their tracks (11-14 fpe in .177 or 22). They will certainly die but have more than enough left in them to make back down the hole.
Early this year I was using a 7.5 fpe crosman 1322 carbine with 15.89gr jsb pellets for rats (big rats), shots were at close range anywhere from 8-15 yards (6.8-7.2 fpe on target). Every single one was a head shot, didn’t loose any of them. Even at this low power level I was getting complete pass throughs on side head shots. Some were even inside the hole when I would take the shot, they would kick themselves out the hole within a few seconds (brain death spasms).
I also used a tuned 19 fpe xisico xs-28 in .25, with this rifle I could take chest shots all day using .25 jsb kings and drop them on the spot out to 15 yards (I could only use this rifle in very limited situations due to the power level and with the length not useful in tight spaces).
And yes, it is about fpe delivered accurately to the vital zone. For .22 on rats I want at least 6 fpe on target (head), with my 1322 and jsb 15.89’s 6 fpe can be delivered out to 32 yards (mostly due to the higher bc of the jsb 15.89) You need to be absolutely sure that the pellet and energy level will penetrate whatever needs penetrating. Example, under no circumstances would I use 6 fpe on target to try and take out a raccoon.
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There’s a recent discussion on AGN at the moment that wanders into this territory. In it, I posted this short clip showing what a wadcutter at 4.6fpe terminal energy does when it meets a gray squirrel’s noggin.
https://youtu.be/TMC04JPmWns
Not saying I recommend it for everyday use, just reinforcing the point that it does not take much if the placement is good. The practical issue that arises is that the trajectory makes proper placements more challenging and it is more susceptible to wind drift.
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There’s a recent discussion on AGN at the moment that wanders into this territory. In it, I posted this short clip showing what a wadcutter at 4.6fpe terminal energy does when it meets a gray squirrel’s noggin.
https://youtu.be/TMC04JPmWns
Not saying I recommend it for everyday use, just reinforcing the point that it does not take much if the placement is good. The practical issue that arises is that the trajectory makes proper placements more challenging and it is more susceptible to wind drift.
LOL...."in the beginning" I used a .177 Daisy pump (before springers) to protect a bird feeder. Due to my mediocre accuracy with open sights I would take "rib shots" since it was a larger target than the head. After the "rib shot" a squirrels would normally climb up the tree from the bird feeder and after quite a few seconds the squirrel would lose it's grip and fall to the ground. :o Nope, don't need a lot of power but in my rimfire days I've had more than a few "rib shot squirrels" make it back to a "tree hole" to die after getting hit with a .22 bullet at over 100fpe. These experiences convinced me that the only thing necessary is a pellet through the vitals (especially at airgun power levels) and this is why I like two holes with one hit...one hole in and one hole out!
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I just got done reading this whole entire thread. So my comment is based on my thoughts after reading all this.
I've been curious about taking an actual cleaned animal skull, filling it with ballistic gelatin, let it set. Then try shooting it to see what happens.
Taxidermists are another option for acquiring animal parts to experiment with, in addition to butcher shops.
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There’s a recent discussion on AGN at the moment that wanders into this territory. In it, I posted this short clip showing what a wadcutter at 4.6fpe terminal energy does when it meets a gray squirrel’s noggin.
https://youtu.be/TMC04JPmWns
Not saying I recommend it for everyday use, just reinforcing the point that it does not take much if the placement is good. The practical issue that arises is that the trajectory makes proper placements more challenging and it is more susceptible to wind drift.
I shot a gray squirrel in the head with a Marksman 2008 SSP and he did the same dance. Same results.
LOL...."in the beginning" I used a .177 Daisy pump (before springers) to protect a bird feeder. Due to my mediocre accuracy with open sights I would take "rib shots" since it was a larger target than the head. After the "rib shot" a squirrels would normally climb up the tree from the bird feeder and after quite a few seconds the squirrel would lose it's grip and fall to the ground. :o Nope, don't need a lot of power but in my rimfire days I've had more than a few "rib shot squirrels" make it back to a "tree hole" to die after getting hit with a .22 bullet at over 100fpe. These experiences convinced me that the only thing necessary is a pellet through the vitals (especially at airgun power levels) and this is why I like two holes with one hit...one hole in and one hole out!
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ah the age old question of fpe at poi to kill a critter. been debated for decades thus far, and still remains undefined and unresolved to an extent.
FWIW, IME, it doesn't take as much power or as big a hole as possible to dispatch an animal as some people may believe. there's no replacement for proper placement, and pellet selection plays a big part in the equation.
a hard alloy domed lead pellet with a good bc and sufficient energy at poi, even in .177, will drop most any animal in its tracks given the shooter does his part and puts the pill exactly where it needs to be.
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ah the age old question of fpe at poi to kill a critter. been debated for decades thus far, and still remains undefined and unresolved to an extent.
FWIW, IME, it doesn't take as much power or as big a hole as possible to dispatch an animal as some people may believe. there's no replacement for proper placement, and pellet selection plays a big part in the equation.
a hard alloy domed lead pellet with a good bc and sufficient energy at poi, even in .177, will drop most any animal in its tracks given the shooter does his part and puts the pill exactly where it needs to be.
"a hard alloy domed lead pellet with a good bc and sufficient energy at poi, even in .177, will drop most any animal in its tracks"
Yup....I think the same, even for critters that aren't normally .177 cal springer quarry with proper placement and penetration.........
(https://i.imgur.com/Yx2hNwcl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/NdFpg4wl.jpg)
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Crows in my experience are tougher than people give them credit for. I would not consider using 6fpe. More like 12+ with the same good placement.
I also think a lot of it depends on region. Here in the northeast coyotes will need a lot more energy to drop than the rest of the country simply because they are much more bulky. Heres a pic of one I trapped here in NY vs a stock photo of one from Colorado.
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Don't really subscribe into the X amount of fpe per pound of animal. Here's an example
Pigeons are way under a pound around here. A .25 FTT hitting a pigeon in the vitals @ 240 fps (2.5 fpe) will penetrate 1.44" of flesh according to this calculator.
https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Calcs.html (https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Calcs.html)
Then your pellet has feathers plus some bone to deal with which will further reduce the penetration.
Out of an accurate 9 fpe gun (custom .25 cal) I wouldn't think about it twice at 20 yards and under (7.4 fpe on impact for almost 80% more penetration according to the calculator above).
I wouldn't even consider 2 fpe on impact in any caliber for starlings which only weigh a few ounces. My personal min fpe on target for those is 6 fpe with 16gr jsb domed pellets.
If you're punching in numbers using the X fpe for X animal weight for something heavier like raccoon sized game then you do come up with a logical fpe number. Even though we know for a fact that 10 fpe on target (accurately placed) with the proper pellet in 177 or 22 will do the job.
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ah the age old question of fpe at poi to kill a critter. been debated for decades thus far, and still remains undefined and unresolved to an extent.
FWIW, IME, it doesn't take as much power or as big a hole as possible to dispatch an animal as some people may believe. there's no replacement for proper placement, and pellet selection plays a big part in the equation.
a hard alloy domed lead pellet with a good bc and sufficient energy at poi, even in .177, will drop most any animal in its tracks given the shooter does his part and puts the pill exactly where it needs to be.
"a hard alloy domed lead pellet with a good bc and sufficient energy at poi, even in .177, will drop most any animal in its tracks"
Yup....I think the same, even for critters that aren't normally .177 cal springer quarry with proper placement and penetration.........
(https://i.imgur.com/Yx2hNwcl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/NdFpg4wl.jpg)
Just like in real estate, the name of the game is location, location, location! (of the shot placement)
Where I shoot (pests) I also have to worry about pass-through and ricochet of missed shots. So, more FPE is not an option most of the time.
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Crows in my experience are tougher than people give them credit for. I would not consider using 6fpe. More like 12+ with the same good placement.
I also think a lot of it depends on region. Here in the northeast coyotes will need a lot more energy to drop than the rest of the country simply because they are much more bulky. Heres a pic of one I trapped here in NY vs a stock photo of one from Colorado.
I can appreciate your perspective. But as far as I'm concerned the only "region" worth considering is the region of the body where I I deposit the pill.
Granted, as you mentioned some animals are tougher than others, such as the example you used when you mentioned crows. But that's why we use proper placement, to compensate for the animal's strength on one end and lower power levels on the other. A certain animal may not die from a body shot when hit with 40 fpe, but deliver 10 fpe to the fusebox in the right spot and watch them boogie.
IMHO, the only real reasons for higher energy are if body shots are your only option (this is often very rarely the case, a better shot is always available and if not there's nothing inherently wrong with giving the animal a pass that time & getting him later) or if you simply just can't get close enough so you need the additional energy so the projectile has enough remaining energy by the time it reaches the target to effectively get the job done.
But to each their own. Some folks just feel better or more confident if they have more power available than they need because it offers a bit more latitude. Nothing wrong with that either.
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Anything the size of a rabbit or squirrel can be taken down with a Red Ryder depending on range and aim. The name of the game is to know your capabilities and DON'T EXCEED THEM!! I feel that a sitting rabbit or squirrel at 20 yards should be no problem. Running or 50 yards or more with the any airgun - don't pull the trigger. The British 12 FPE at muzzle is certainly reasonable, but it still depends on the ability of the shooter and being
able to accurately estimate range. I used to get so "dang" angry when duck hunting at people blasting away at 80+ yards. Simple rule - if you can't see the eyes - don't shoot. And - PRACTICE, PRACTICE - AND THEN PRACTICE SOME MORE!
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@ ericnel +1 on the silly duck Hunter thing; been there... On to the previous discussion; 6fpe will through & through a squirrel , shoulder/shoulder w/ a JSB express .22 @ 60+ yards...DRT. It seems any energy over this @ 60 yds. is not necessary. Just an observation...
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@ericnel
"if you can't see the eyes don't shoot".. Very good rule of thumb, particularly for shotguns.
But with our single projectile weapons with limited power, this doesn't really apply to us. That's why I always say, if one intends to take the life of a living creature, always know your range, your weapon, your quarry, and your limits. If any of those are in question when the time comes to get down to brass tacks, theres no shame in letting the opportunity go.
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That's why I always say, if one intends to take the life of a living creature, always know your range, your weapon, your quarry, and your limits. If any of those are in question when the time comes to get down to brass tacks, theres no shame in letting the opportunity go.
This is exactly how I think. If you're confident you probably have a reason to be, and if it doesn't work out you won't be so confident next time. Go by the guidelines at first and see how comfortable you feel with tweaking them. Just remember there's nothing wrong with opting for more power in our sport for piece of mind.
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Just remember there's nothing wrong with opting for more power in our sport for piece of mind.
But but but accuracy vs power~~ ugh. You know someone will want to say it.
What can we call that power range in between sub 12fpe and magnum springers? Hunting power?
There's super accurate sub12fpe springers. Then there's accuracy challenged magnums and who knows where the low level of fpe begins with those. I like to think that it begins at 20fpe for no particular reason. So, there's that range between 12 fpe and 20 fpe where hopefully you get a good mix of power and accuracy to make a versatile hunting air gun. But what's the generally agreed upon term for that power range? And what is that power range really? 12-20fpe is just my opinion.
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Any fpe capability any AG can produce can be considered hunting power, it just greatly depends on how accurate you are with your AG, and what exactly you are hunting, and how far you plan to hunt it from. A 3fpe co2 pistol capable of quarter inch 10 shot groups at 10 yards s enough for rats and mice at 10 yards, but that same combo is nowhere near enough for a raccoon at 50 yards.
Now if we're talking springers there must be a balance between power and accuracy. A gun generating all the fpe it can is useless if you can't consistently hit your target with it due to recoil or pellets going all over the place from being shot way too fast. But that's why those that shoot magnum spring guns more often than not chose to use the heaviest pellets they can find to compensate for both those problems as much as possible.
At the end of it all, whether springer or PCP, 3 fpe or 300 fpe, scope or iron sights, it all boils down to the one with their finger on the trigger knowing what they and their gun are capable of and what's necessary for an effective kill, and a shooter's willingness and ability to work within those parameters.
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Can't stand Charts !
There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number
what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.
Something tells me ballistic coefficient, bullet drop calculations, cant, etc. are useless to some people.
Thank you to those who contributed useful information to the topic, that's how understanding is shared and learning happens.
BTW, Tom Gaylord has an excellent post on the subject:
Airgun Hunting - hunting with airguns. Can it be done?
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I shot a squirrel once with about 5 fpe and will not do it again. I was using a peep sighted 1377 and I hit about where I was aiming but all it did is break the near shoulder badly. It did not make it to vitals (gamo redfire). If it has gone a quarter inch further back or half an inch forward it might have done the job. Might.
I have shot several with my Prod tuned to 13-17 fpe. I tried shooting through a dead one at 20 yards with a H&N FTT and a H&N Baracuda - 22 caliber so 14.66 and 18 grains. Neither made it through. The tune at that point was about 14fpe on the FTT and a little more on the Baracuda. Sample of one but I think it takes more than 14 fpe to make it through a squirrel. Both stopped with the head out and the skirt in the skin on the far side. Both did significant damage, I'm sure but if you want two holes (which I do) neither did it.
I've hit two with my current tune using the FTT. It is about 17 fpe. Both reacted differently than the 4 I shot with lower power tunes on this gun. Neither was initially hit in the head but neither tried to run off. Might have just been luck but I think hitting them harder reduced their ability or desire to try and run off. I hit one of them in the head on a second shot anchoring it even though I hit below the eye and it came out the chin. The second one rolled around on the ground - but not like a solid head shot - and went into a rotted area of the tree it was shot off of.
There is an interesting discussion in a youtube by "the squirrel hunter" on how fast squirrels move. They can move about ten times as fast as we can get a pellet to them. We try to wait until they are still. But if we guess wrong they can easily move enough to affect our intended perfect shot placement. Other times we don't do well as we want with placement. I aim for the head but I do not always hit it. Even though both I and my gun shoot well enough to do so consistently. I think in several cases the squirrel moved a little.
So I don't care if 5 fpe will kill a squirrel with perfect shot placement. I want my gun to kill the squirrel without it running off even if the shot doesn't go exactly where I want it to. For squirrels I think that is somewhere in the 15-20 fpe range. If I only has a 12 fpe gun I guess I would still use it but I would try to be extra careful with range and shot placement.
I am talking about muzzle fpe. I agree that fpe at the target is the real variable but I haven't done the math to know that for my experiences. I haven't shot or shot at a squirrel with a air rifle beyond about 25 yards. Most were at 20 yards. The 5fpe case was 10 yards or less.
I agree cottontails are easier to kill than squirrels although I haven not shot them with an air rifle yet. I've seen them killed by a dirt clod. I do not agree an expanding pellet needs less energy to kill. Most do not expand at all at the velocity achieved by lower power rifles. If they do not expand how can their design make any useful difference?
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I hate to say it but this chart raises more questions then it answers. For example "vitals" a solid .177 is not going to cause the same damage to lungs as a .25 even if they carry the same energy. The .25 will punch a bigger hole and reduce the O² getting to the critter, causing a quickier kill. On the other hand you don't need much disruption to the "lizard brain" to stop bodily function. But the pellet needs to pierce the skull to get there. Here the smaller .177 would penetrate further then a .25 at the same fpe....just given the amount of surface area of the pellet. And for the real wild card, no two shots, skulls or animals are exactly the same. We can see the animals shot cleanly, but the ones that ran off we can't inspect. Maybe we shot a "flyer" and hit the jaw, not the brain. Not to mention fluffy fur and feathers could effect our point of aim at times. As after all of that, I would suggest FPE for hunting is more of an art then a science.
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Can't stand Charts !
There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number
what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.
Something tells me ballistic coefficient, bullet drop calculations, cant, etc. are useless to some people.
:) :) :) Correct.
Been hunting with Airguns for over a dozen years,...quite successfully, I thing, and never used any of those :) :) :)
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I shot a squirrel once with about 5 fpe and will not do it again. I was using a peep sighted 1377 and I hit about where I was aiming but all it did is break the near shoulder badly. It did not make it to vitals (gamo redfire). If it has gone a quarter inch further back or half an inch forward it might have done the job. Might.
I have shot several with my Prod tuned to 13-17 fpe. I tried shooting through a dead one at 20 yards with a H&N FTT and a H&N Baracuda - 22 caliber so 14.66 and 18 grains. Neither made it through. The tune at that point was about 14fpe on the FTT and a little more on the Baracuda. Sample of one but I think it takes more than 14 fpe to make it through a squirrel. Both stopped with the head out and the skirt in the skin on the far side. Both did significant damage, I'm sure but if you want two holes (which I do) neither did it.
I've hit two with my current tune using the FTT. It is about 17 fpe. Both reacted differently than the 4 I shot with lower power tunes on this gun. Neither was initially hit in the head but neither tried to run off. Might have just been luck but I think hitting them harder reduced their ability or desire to try and run off. I hit one of them in the head on a second shot anchoring it even though I hit below the eye and it came out the chin. The second one rolled around on the ground - but not like a solid head shot - and went into a rotted area of the tree it was shot off of.
There is an interesting discussion in a youtube by "the squirrel hunter" on how fast squirrels move. They can move about ten times as fast as we can get a pellet to them. We try to wait until they are still. But if we guess wrong they can easily move enough to affect our intended perfect shot placement. Other times we don't do well as we want with placement. I aim for the head but I do not always hit it. Even though both I and my gun shoot well enough to do so consistently. I think in several cases the squirrel moved a little.
So I don't care if 5 fpe will kill a squirrel with perfect shot placement. I want my gun to kill the squirrel without it running off even if the shot doesn't go exactly where I want it to. For squirrels I think that is somewhere in the 15-20 fpe range. If I only has a 12 fpe gun I guess I would still use it but I would try to be extra careful with range and shot placement.
I am talking about muzzle fpe. I agree that fpe at the target is the real variable but I haven't done the math to know that for my experiences. I haven't shot or shot at a squirrel with a air rifle beyond about 25 yards. Most were at 20 yards. The 5fpe case was 10 yards or less.
I agree cottontails are easier to kill than squirrels although I haven not shot them with an air rifle yet. I've seen them killed by a dirt clod. I do not agree an expanding pellet needs less energy to kill. Most do not expand at all at the velocity achieved by lower power rifles. If they do not expand how can their design make any useful difference?
Jim, I think you might have misread the chart. Those #'s are FPE on IMPACT, not at the muzzle. They have nothing to do with distance. It's the FPE it hits the animal with, and those #'s for fur are head shots only. You can hit a raccoon or coyote with 50 fpe in the vitals, but if you miss the heart it will run and you will never recover it. It means a slow death for the animal, and sometimes it's not even fatal.
Also the chart shows the MINIMUM FPE for head shots. When airgunners talk about minimum FPE, it almost always implies head shots. Vitals shots on medium-sized game like fox/raccoon/bobcat/possum/woodchuck, etc. are very risky ,and you never want to hit the shoulder or bone with a low bore or mid-power airgun, unless it's a rib on its way to the heart and even then it can get deflected. 9-11fpe is certainly not enough for vitals with those 10 to 25 pound animals, but with a well placed head shot (to the brain) you can take all of them with the FPE listed in the chart. I hope this is more clear.
Since you mentioned squirrels, I have taken close to 100 squirrels (and rabbits) with a 760 pumper .177 (5-5.5 FPE) in the 80's when I was a teenager. All were head shots mostly at 10 to 12 yards, some at 14-15 delivering about 4fpe. A squirrel's head is small and narrow. You only need 1/2" penetration at the most with a head shot on a squirrel. Of course if you have a 16+ FPE .22 (or .25) go for the vitals if you 're within 30 yards of a rabbit or squirrel. They can't survive that much FPE in the vitals, but if you only have 5-6, 8 or 12 FPE at the muzzle, go for a head shot inside 20yds. You do not need a passthrough to kill a squirrel, rabbit, raccoon, or any small game. I too have shot squirrels with my Prod set for mid-power at 14.2 fpe, and only had 1 passthrough (the head) at 21 yards, but they were all DRT just the same. Pass-through is not important and rarely increases your chances of getting an instant kill. As a matter of fact non-passthrough shots transfer ALL of the energy to the prey when there is no exit wound, and that's what you want since most airguns don't have enough kinetic energy to create hydrostatic shock.
In my experience, out of the more than a thousands small game critters I have taken with airguns, the ones that had no exit wound either died without a death dance, or expired faster with a shorter death dance, than the ones that had an exit wound. This may sound strange to many people, but it actually translates to my mid-powered guns killing the animals faster on average than my high powered guns, and 1 of the reasons I switched from hunting with my Condors and Mrod to guns with less than half or 1/3rd of the power.
Harry
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The original chart seems low for anything bigger than squirrels. I'm not sure 9 fpe would get through a bobcat's skull! I hits a coyote in the head with 40 fpe and it ricocheted off his skull. However... this chart seems high for "minimums". I have since gotten 6 coyotes with 42-44 fpe, all heart/lung shots and all either dead right there or made it 100 yds and dropped dead.
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/br8_8/bcb89ec8.jpg)
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Not sure if those are meant to be impact or muzzle. Yea, it says at 20 yards, but still.
We have a big grey (Red) fox that hangs around He is particularly large. He rivals the size of the neighbors heelers.
I wouldn't want to go after him with anything less than my 25 with 33.5 grain slugs. I would probably opt for 22LR in velocitor ammo (40 grains @1400+ FPS)if needed, but since I have no intent on destroying such a magnificent animal, no worries.
Most of those seem pretty good for impact velocity. Some might try to shoot something at the end range and it would be very anemic. My 22 with a 14.3 at ~850 will take a racoon handily at 25 yards. Dillos are tougher, and run off a ways. maybe 20-40ish yards. The buzzards find them quickly.
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Harry,
I did not misunderstand, I just have not calculated the energy of my guns at the 20-27 yards I have been killing squirrels at. I am more concerned with whether they do the job, a clean humane kill, than I am the fpe at impact. I measure the muzzle velocity as part of establishing the tune so I know that.
I am also not indicating that I think it is not possible to kill an animal with an ideally placed shot at these energies. I am saying that we cannot count on an ideally placed shot. With your experience I am sure you have seen what happens if the squirrel moves even a little after you send the projectile on it's way. If I was hunting in open woods instead of my backyard, I would not worry as much about squirrels running a bit after they are shot. But they do not have to go far before they are in another yard potentially causing an issue I would rather avoid.
I believe that using an air rifle at energies this low is not generally a good idea. For a very careful hunter it may turn out OK but we still have to consider the possibility the squirrel decides to move. They can do it quicker than we can react. If they do, we do not get a clean kill unless we have significantly more energy so we can penetrate at least to the vitals despite the less than ideal placement. I like to think I am pretty patient and I certainly have turned down a lot of shots when the animal was too fidgity or the angle was not good. But other people with limited opportunities may not be as patient and with a low powered air rifle they will not get clean kills consistently at these energies.
Energy dump versus penetration is a very old point of discussion I have had on powder burners too. My deer load for my 30 06 is a 180 grain Hornady at greater than factory velocity. With the same logic I will not use pellets that actually expand (Crosman HP do not at Prod velocity) unless I know the alternative is the pellet zinging off through the country side. If it will only barely pass through the animal I will stick with a domed. Some of the reason for that is philosophical but some is based upon observation of impacts. Maybe I will get more experience and change my mind but I doubt it. Now that I have my smaller gun tuned up enough to get pass through I have not had one run off yet - but we are early. If I do, I might try metal mags, the only pellet I've tested that expands at Prod velocity.
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OK, I got curious and I also decided it might sound arrogant for me to just say "I didn't do the math". So I did it. My original shots on squirrels with the tune my Prod came with put about 10fpe on the squirrel. I hit one nicely in the head and he was drt. But I had at least one get up and run into the neighbors yard. My next tune was only slightly higher, about 11.6 fpe on the squirrel but I did not have any go scampering off like that (I think I probably was more careful to get a good shot). My current tune puts about 14 fpe on the squirrel at impact. The 11.6 fpe did not result in pass through with H&N FTT or Barracuda pellets on a dead squirrel (the head of the pellet was out but the skirt was still stuck in the skin). I am looking for a chance to try the 14 fpe tune but I suspect it will go through.
So I am arguing you need 12-14 fpe at the point of impact to reliably keep a squirrel from running off if you do not hit it in the brain. If you hit the vitals with this level of energy, my experience indicates it won't be drt but you will get a chance to finish it off, it will not run far. That is not guaranteed in my judgement but your odds are a lot better than if you hit it with 10 fpe or less.
I am not a fan of a chart that depends on perfect shot placement. It may be accurate for that purpose but it may also mislead some to think that sort of energy will work well even when the placement is not into the brain and I don't think it will. My admittedly somewhat limited experience says it will not.
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OK, I got curious and I also decided it might sound arrogant for me to just say "I didn't do the math". So I did it. My original shots on squirrels with the tune my Prod came with put about 10fpe on the squirrel. I hit one nicely in the head and he was drt. But I had at least one get up and run into the neighbors yard. My next tune was only slightly higher, about 11.6 fpe on the squirrel but I did not have any go scampering off like that (I think I probably was more careful to get a good shot). My current tune puts about 14 fpe on the squirrel at impact. The 11.6 fpe did not result in pass through with H&N FTT or Barracuda pellets on a dead squirrel (the head of the pellet was out but the skirt was still stuck in the skin). I am looking for a chance to try the 14 fpe tune but I suspect it will go through.
So I am arguing you need 12-14 fpe at the point of impact to reliably keep a squirrel from running off if you do not hit it in the brain. If you hit the vitals with this level of energy, my experience indicates it won't be drt but you will get a chance to finish it off, it will not run far. That is not guaranteed in my judgement but your odds are a lot better than if you hit it with 10 fpe or less.
I am not a fan of a chart that depends on perfect shot placement. It may be accurate for that purpose but it may also mislead some to think that sort of energy will work well even when the placement is not into the brain and I don't think it will. My admittedly somewhat limited experience says it will not.
I disagree because at only "12-14fpe" means nothing unless the vitals are perforated. LOL....in my rimfire days I've had more than a couple grey squirrels take a 100+ fpe hit through both lungs and still travel a few feet to get into a tree hole! Here is a pic of a couple grey squirrels I took with my .177 R9 at 30ish yards tuned to only12.5 fpe at the muzzle requiring only one hit each, one head shot and one "double lunged" and what happened to the NC squirrels I took that day..............
(https://i.imgur.com/jOqzhB7.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/xv2FDzZ.jpg)
The problem with head shots on squirrels is that the "kill zone" isn't as large as it seems since a hit too far forward only "busts the nose" and a hit too low only "busts the jaw", however a pellet through the brain is "lights out"............
(https://i.imgur.com/bTqsYrw.jpg)
Matter of fact, I've also taken larger pests like raccoon and groundhog with the same .177 HW95 and "brain shots"........
(https://i.imgur.com/5m3aq42.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/KwinU67.jpg)
Anywhoo......the only thing that matters with pellets is that the pellet has enough energy to go THROUGH the brain or both lungs.
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Ed,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and I am glad they are better than mine at lower what I would call minimum fpe. As I tried to make clear, my hunting so far is in the backyard where I am trying to avoid complaints from neighbors. While lung shots are certainly deadly I am confident I hit the squirrel that ran to my neighbors yard through the front of its body and it still ran off. I need to avoid doing that. For most hunting having to go 20 feet or more to retrieve the animal isn't a huge issue but it is to me.
I agree about head shots. I've hit the brain but I also put a second shot under the eye and out the chin of a squirrel. It was already hit hard in the chest and went down but if that had been the first shot it might still be running. Not much distance between a wounding and a drt shot when you aim at the head. But I still aim there.
Your 12 fpe at the muzzle is still higher than what is in the chart. It is about where my Prod started. When I hit the brain the squirrel was drt.
I am not trying to challenge the ethics of anybody with experience that is consistently good. You would seem to be more consistently putting the pellet in the right place than I am or you don't have to worry about them running a little. I am worried about inexperienced air gunners using a gun that only puts 5 fpe on the squirrel which you are not doing unless you are shooting at awfully long distance. My original Prod tune was still about 10 fpe on the squirrel. When I hit them with a 5 fpe gun I happened to hit the near side shoulder and the pellet did not make it past that. The vitals are right behind that shoulder. It was not a terrible shot except that the squirrel did not get a quick death. I haven't had it happen but I suspect a 10 fpe hit to that shoulder would have made it to the lungs and the squirrel would have died quickly.
I like hitting them with about 14 fpe because of how the few I've hit that way stayed in about the same place even when not hit in the brain. That works much better for me. I feel pretty confident with this tune. But today I grabbed my newer 25 caliber when a squirrel showed up. I didn't get a shot but I am totally comfortable with it's 35 fpe - but it still takes a shot into the vitals.
Stated another way, an airgun with 12 fpe or less is the gun for an expert who carefully selects their shots and puts the pellets into the vitals every time. Body shot squirrels may run a bit but if that's OK then I can see why it would work for you.
If I see a coon or other larger animal I need to deal with I will use my 25.
Jim
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Yea right in an ideal world with a PERFECT fuse box shot !!
More unfortunate critters get maimed to crawl elsewhere and suffer or die from such low power shots from dime store power bb guns / air rifles that fall under or at those power levels.
Just my opinion, only critters to fall reliably under those power levels are small to med size birds, chipmunks & rats.
But then again a lucky or correctly placed shot is like a LIGHTNING bolt even from a bb gun ... go figure.
JMO ... nuttin more
x2!!!