GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => The Long Range Club => Topic started by: truckr6969 on December 03, 2018, 07:50:52 PM
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Just wanting some opinions on 1000 yards under 2inch ctc group with an air rifle..... Should I try it or should I forget it .....
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1000 yds? That’s a very tall order.
A 2” group @ 200 yds is tough enough. But by all means give it your best effort. 😎
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Wow, I say definitely try.
What's your rifle/setup? How many shots are you planning for your group?
Blue
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.308 Texan 3 shot group
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Brian, your desire the push the envelope is awesome. :D
My airgunning so far has been happening in the basement of the gun power levels, so I'm not really up on anything happening beyond a couple hundred yards....
So, are there many shooters reaching 1000 yards – and hitting anything smaller than the broad side of a barn?
If you've got a few links to 1000 yard airgunners, I'll take your click bait...!! ;D ;D
Your specific goal of 2" – with 3 shots – is indeed very specific.
Is there any record you'd like to break, a bet to win, or why 2" (and not 2MOA, or any other number)? Why 3 shots (which is by some not really considered a group quite yet)?
What pellet/slug are you planning on using? How much power does your gun have? (I'd love to run the numbers in ChairGun!)
Good luck, Brian, I think this is awesome.
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the answers to your question still elude me at this time but I believe 128g boat tail hollowpoint running about 1300 fps
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What scope you using?
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Look up verybigrifle on youtube.
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im going to use either a vortex viper 6-24x50 or Athlon this is a work in progress don't have it all locked down yet
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Hate to break it to ya, but that bullet will be tumbling by 250 yards. Back your velocity down to somewhere in the 1050 fps range and you will have better luck
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Just wanting some opinions on 1000 yards under 2inch ctc group with an air rifle..... Should I try it or should I forget it .....
Never happen
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480 fpe in .308? Wow, How are you getting 1300 fps? 1000 yards is a huge endeavor. Definitely subscribed to this thread! :D
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Definitely subscribed to this thread!
Yeah...
What else are we gonn'a do?!
With click bait like THAT?!? ;D
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I'm sitting in a chair.
Having ChairGun, my ballistic calculator open.
I'm punching Brian's numbers in, 1300fps, 128gr, I'm guesstimating 0.15BC.
This is fun.
Ever wondered why the program is called ChairGun....?
I don't have a gun with 480FPE, mine has a 40th of that....
But I'm shooting his gun anyway. From the chair in my living room!
—> ChairGun!!
8)
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Well, considering a 2" group at 1000 yards would be less than 0.2 MOA.... You would need to be consistently shooting aspirin size cloverleaf groups at 100 yards to have any kind of a chance, IMO.... Let's just say you are in for a challenge.... ::)
Bob
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Just wanting some opinions on 1000 yards under 2inch ctc group with an air rifle..... Should I try it or should I forget it .....
Never happen
+1
Don't want to be rude, but if you have done your homework, this is really a silly question.
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Well, considering a 2" group at 1000 yards would be less than 0.2 MOA.... You would need to be consistently shooting aspirin size cloverleaf groups at 100 yards to have any kind of a chance, IMO.... Let's just say you are in for a challenge.... ::)
Bob
Truckr might not have understood enough to come to AncientSword's conclusion before asking, but it is just as well that he did ask, since Bob's answer puts some math to answering the question that might help others. Putting other factors like wind and spin drift aside for a moment, if your piece and ammo can't statistically hold to a certain angular deviation, that will be a hard and fast limit at whatever range.
Now just to be sure, the MOA calculation for those of us that are new at it is just the 2" divided by 1000 yards and moving the decimal point, correct? No trigonometry or unit conversions need be shown, as by a fortunate coincidence of geometry, one MOA is just a hair over 1" at 100 yards.
If it helps anybody, think of it as a percentage if you are working in inches and yards: 1/100 is 1 percent, or 1 MOA. And 2/1000, i.e. 2" at 1000 yards, is 0.2 percent, or 0.2 MOA.
If that doesn't gel for you, just use the ratio of 1" at 100 yards and do whatever works for you. For example here's a very short table: https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/ (https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/)
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You can't blame a man for dreaming big (and a little crazy)! It's not an airgun, but it can be done: https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/benchrest-shooter-1000-yard-group/ (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/benchrest-shooter-1000-yard-group/).
I'll subscribe to learn something and watch the show.
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You can't blame a man for dreaming big (and a little crazy)! It's not an airgun, but it can be done: https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/benchrest-shooter-1000-yard-group/ (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/benchrest-shooter-1000-yard-group/).
I'll subscribe to learn something and watch the show.
WOW!!!
Thanks for the link.
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Do it. Ignore the naysayers. Make it happen.
They will call it luck.
I would call it perseverance.
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Great challenge. At least you would know just how well you could do at that distance when giving it your best effort. If you actually were able to pull if off, wouldn't that be the talk...Good luck.
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There's a guy on YT -upnorthairgunner--
He wanted to do basically the same thing.
Texan .357.
It took him a bunch of tries to even hit a 21" target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROx2Ufji9dM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROx2Ufji9dM)
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There's a guy on YT -upnorthairgunner--
He wanted to do basically the same thing.
Texan .357.
It took him a bunch of tries to even hit a 21" target.
Yep, Chris is a member here.
I remember watching that video and another where the target was propped on a branch in the water a little closer. Absolutely great achievement!
And yeah, I remember a lot of shots to just figure out where things were landing. There's a lot going on between trigger and target at that distance.
Blue
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Look at the rail he's got his scope on. It's more like lobbing artillery shells than shooting a rifle.
Blue
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It can be done a lot easier with a PB and it is possible. It isn't common even in that world. Good shooting is 1 MOA per 100 yards. That would be roughly 10" (or in reality 10.47") .
A lot of guys in the PB world are shooting very high dollar guns to get their sub-moa groups. At least they can just use a good scope with a normal 20 MOA base. Taking a PB to 2500 or 3000 yards starts to become closer to what we are trying to do at 1000.
Most people come in and ask if they can do it, I get the idea and the desire. I have the same desire, but even hitting a large target at 1000 yards is good for us. Let's be real.
I will just throw this out there. It is going to cost you a ton of money. Know that up front. Carl has been shooting his long range stuff with guns that I believe run in the $3500+ range.
One of the biggest issues to solve is with how you are going to see your target at that distance. You need a great scope with a lot of adjustment and some kind of adjustable scope mount or base.
A couple option are something like a cold shot adjustable scope base or even better would be a Charlie Tarac unit to get anywhere close. There are no scopes with 300 MOA of adjustment, which is what Carl had dialed in at 1100 yards. A cold shot base runs a minimum of $430 and Charlie Taco units are $1700.
Carl and Chris were both using the cold shot base.
Not saying it is impossible, just very, very improbable.
Change the OP question to can I shoot 2 MOA at 1000 and we have something really worth discussing.
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I think the way forward to be successful at this kind of shooting is to use bracketing. As in, learn to adjust fire the same way you would in the Army, and apply the same priciples.
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Look at the rail he's got his scope on. It's more like lobbing artillery shells than shooting a rifle.
Blue
Sure is. Trajectory is almost like a mortar.
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Image if Orville and Wilbur Wright had some of THESE guys on their side. You go, boy. Logic and science may dictate it can't be done, but that's no what the human mind is all about.
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Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal. Thanks again!!
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Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal. Thanks again!!
The long range airgun game is all about achieving the impossible. Only way you get there is by trying. Somebody is going to do it one day, might as well be you!
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Over 500 FPE in .308 cal will require you to run Helium.... I assume you have already factored that in?.... Also, your choice of 1300 fps may help flatten the trajectory, but your wind drift will be much worse, and IMO that is the most difficult thing to deal with at long ranges....
I designed a 200 gr. Bob's Boattail I called the "Whiteout" (like a Blackout, but from the Great White North, as I am in Canada)…. The guys who built the gun were from Carolina, I believe, and they started with an Extreme Big Bore running on 4500 psi Helium.... They found the best accuracy was right around 1000 fps, although they could push that big bullet nearly Supersonic.... It was quite an accomplishment to duplicate the ballistics of the .300 AAC Blackout (Whisper) round on air....
Here is a chart showing what happens with the wind drift at only 200 yards.... The drift at 1400 fps MV is about 50% more than at 900 fps....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/Wind%20Drift%20G1_zps5d7eem8a.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/Wind%20Drift%20G1_zps5d7eem8a.jpg.html)
Trajectory is mostly about velocity, whereas reducing wind drift is mostly about BC, and not shooting Supersonic (unless you can do 3000 plus)….
Bob
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Go for it. But work your way out. I'd love to see you do the cloverleaf thing at 100, 200, 300 and see how it progresses from there. Should be a fun process. See just how far out 2" can be maintained.
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Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal. Thanks again!!
I would love to see you do it. I never said you couldn't, I just think it is way harder than people want to think it is. There are many guys who want to do similar. Carl is the only one I have seen really pull it off well and he isn't close to 2" at 1000. He is a champion .50 BMG shooter as well, so he has some serious experience behind him, along with some ego.
Just wondering, where are you getting the BC for your bullet? I haven't seen an airgun bullet with that high of a BC. BC is velocity dependent, so is that based off the bullet and your velocity or just pulled from some bullet specs?
Also, what scope are you planning to use?
Last but not least, how are you going to push your Texan to 1300 fps? Planning to use helium? I saw that Chris shot some helium out of his big Texan, but I am not aware of a lot of guys doing it. Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun. I would want more solid answers on that before I tried it personally. Maybe you are going to run an AAO setup off of 4500 psi? It is an interesting undertaking, I will be subscribed to the thread.
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Bob, do you have your own website with all these graphs you post, or can you give a link to a site that has all this gun science? I always find it interesting. I'm an engineer, electronics, not mechanical but I eat this stuff up. So thanks.
Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun.
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun. It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet. It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle. At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.
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I'm gonna be using either a vortex viper hs lr 6-24x50 or an Athlon ares etr 4.5-30x56 both are ffp scopes. The bc comes from a bc calculator.
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Trajectory is the least of your worries.
The wind, gentleman, the wind.
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Bob, do you have your own website with all these graphs you post, or can you give a link to a site that has all this gun science? I always find it interesting. I'm an engineer, electronics, not mechanical but I eat this stuff up. So thanks.
Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun.
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun. It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet. It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle. At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.
You might be right, I was thinking about charging to high psi on helium, like I do in my Extreme and Badger ... No one mentioned what charge they were taking things to.
I do believe that helium will put more stress on parts in general. Probably won't be an issue on an Airforce. Don't think I would want to do it consistently on a cheaper made gun.
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I don't have a website with all my graphs, they are simply saved in Photobucket, and on my computer.... I just pull up what I need....
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun. It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet. It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle. At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.
I know Brent at Extreme Airguns would disagree with me, but I agree with the statement in quotes above.... Yes, the overall FPE in the BULLET increases, but that comes from the gas being 1/7th the mass.... In a high powered big-bore, the air mass equals or exceeds the bullet mass.... Air at 3000 psi weighs 60 gr. per CI.... In a .308 cal 34" Texan barrel at 4500 psi (gun modified for safety) the air would weigh about 210 gr.... The same amount of Helium, at the same pressure, only about 30 gr.... Brent posted a photo of a bolt in a .308 running Helium that blew back and destroyed the receiver.... but because of the solid construction of his Extremes, there was no other damage (or injuries).... I think it likely the bolt was not properly in battery, rather than the damage caused by using Helium....
Bob
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Here's a weird thought for you all....helium seems to be the go to gas for trying to get more speed and power while air gunning. Just heard last night that there is a helium shortage - it's not a man made gas and needs to be mined far below the earth's surface and we're experiencing a shortage right now. Seems that helium may be working itself out of the air gunning world...
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I’d shoot for 2” at 100 first. Then Figure out how you are getting 540fpe out a .308 Texan. But I wish you luck on pushing the envelope.
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Here's a weird thought for you all....helium seems to be the go to gas for trying to get more speed and power while air gunning. Just heard last night that there is a helium shortage - it's not a man made gas and needs to be mined far below the earth's surface and we're experiencing a shortage right now. Seems that helium may be working itself out of the air gunning world...
It's definitely a finite resource. Mined and used helium floats out of our atmosphere into space.
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Here's an interesting factoid for you.... The US Military is selling off it's HUGE reserves of Helium that are stored underground, and has been since the days of Airships…. ::)
Additionally, they have recently discovered some huge deposits in Africa.... I personally think it's just scare tactics to increase the price.... :o
The one fact that is indisputable is that Helium floats to the top of the atmosphere, and occasional collisions boost the velocity of individual atoms to escape velocity, and that Helium is indeed lost to space.... so whatever is on Earth is all we will have.... until they start mining it on the Moon.... ;)
As for using it in PCPs.... when you can't buy it for Party Balloons any more.... then maybe I'll worry about wasting it.... ::)
Bob
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A finite resource is a finite resource. When you can no longer purchase it for your party balloons, it will be too late...
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Just to put this subject in context.... To qualify as a NUAH Master at 1000 yards would require a 5-shot, 10" group within or touching a 20" 10-ring.... and the target would have to be at least a 40" circle, with no other holes in the target....
Bob
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After talking to a few Texan .308 owners it seems I will have to re barrel the Texan before I try any long range shooting.
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Is this the hunting folks Brian? Yup, need a longer barrel and faster twist rate to reach that far. Good luck, man, pullin' for ya!
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Just to put this subject in context.... To qualify as a NUAH Master at 1000 yards would require a 5-shot, 10" group within or touching a 20" 10-ring.... and the target would have to be at least a 40" circle, with no other holes in the target....
Bob
Boy that would be a picture to frame eh?
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I think the first step would be to qualify as master in the NUAH Long Range Club at 100yds.
Jim - jhm757
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I think the first step would be to qualify as master in the NUAH Long Range Club at 100yds.
Jim - jhm757
Wouldn't you just LOVE to see a .2" CTC 5 shot group at 100 yards? At that point, I'd mount the target, the rifle, and pictures on the wall like something from a trophy hunt!
I think it's a great idea to jump into the deep (DEEEEEEEP) end first. That way when you dial back the distance to 100 yards it'll feel almost too easy.
Blue
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IMO, this is the best long range shooting we have seen used for NUAH qualifications.... https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142820.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142820.new#new) …. That qualified Doug Noble as a Master at 200 yards.... 1.25" 5-shot group....
Bob
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This is great shot, slightly above 1 MOA group on 200 yards. Almost bull eye. This would be a good result even in firearms category. For air rifle this is more than outstanding.
Just some numbers from firearms world.
- Standard mechanical deviation for hunting rifles is about 2-3MOA.
- Snipers are about 1MOA.
- Competition custom built longe range rifles are about 0.5MOA, with custom built bullets.
0.5MOA on 1000 yards is 5". That is tightest group you can get in theory (wind, atmospheric condition and bullets imprefection is ignored), with commonly seen rifles. Someone managed to achieve 0.1MOA group at 1000 yards, that is a world record.
If anyone ever get a group of 2" (0.2 MOA) at 1000 yards with air rifle, please post the details here.
I would enjoy reading it. Honestly.
Yes, you should built your own barrel to achieve that.
And, think about SFP scopes, FFP are handy for hunting, but here you will need SFP. Largest tube diameter (more light, clearer image), with high quality glass and 1/8MOA click turrets, as much zoom as you can get. Adjustable mounts, scope shims etc.etc.
And you will need to think a tactic. Shooting over a lake was a good one. Water from lake is keeping temperature and atmosphere constant throught out all projectile trajetory. A day without wind. Same air and ground/water temperature, so that you don't end shooting a mirage. Shoot at North to eliminate gyroscopic effect of Earth rotation.....
The largest problem you have is your power. To keep projectile stable at 0.2MOA at 1000 yards you will need a lot of power. For .308, something like 2000 ft-lbf and more. Does such air rifle exist?
You should avoid transsonic flight before hitting a target. Transsonic flight (near speed of sound) destabilize projectile and increase groups.
A lot to do.
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Ivan, the 1.25" group that Doug shot at 200 yards is actually 0.6 MOA, because 1 MOA at 200 yards is 2.094" (although for NUAH we consider it to be 2.000")…. That rivals what the average shooter can accomplish with a PB using handloads, and exceeds the expectations for factory ammo.... My best ever group with a .222 Rem handload was 0.6 MOA....
Bob
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Yes, my mistake. That makes that shot even more outstanding, just as your Bob.
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I still haveny gotten my nuah target done. So a 1000 yard shot would be incredible. I would like to see the progrems from 100 yards on up. Alot more work marking off distance setting up targets waitingfor days where the wind is reasonable foe the distance etc. I would love to see you get it done though. good luxk
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I think the 2 biggest obstacles to overcome will be consistency and wind-drift.
This is no more than lobbing projectiles and taking into account the effects of your environment. I've shot a pie tin with 10 arrows out of 12 from a 30# PCV bow at 70 yards. I had to account for ballistic trajectory and windage, but I made it happen and won a bottle of tequila as a result. Heck, I've hit milk-jugs 6 out of 6 with marbles at 60 yards with a plain old wrist rocket. This is no different...
Put the projectile in the air after doing the math for trajectory, drift/windage, and gravity. Once you're consistent, its just the exact same as a ballistic round from any other projectile-launcher (be it a one-niner-eight or a featherweight bow hurling arrows) putting "ordinance" on target.
Translation: get it in the air and see what happens :)
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I came across these:
Composite Scenes Of The 1108 yd Hits-257 Condor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0G-zS05jjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0G-zS05jjE)
AirForce Texan Big Bore Airgun - 1250 Yard World Record Longest Air Rifle Shot
(The target was a trash-can lid which he hit about 12" off-center.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROx2Ufji9dM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROx2Ufji9dM)
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Snipers who shoot at 1000+ yards kind of have to be mathematicians. You have to be able to compensate for the earth's rotation, air temperature, altitude, spin drift, etc. in addition to the usual trajectory and wind. Even the humidity comes into play (more-humid air is actually slightly less dense), and in PBs, even the temperature of the gunpowder. (Warmer powder makes for a slightly higher MV.)
I am in favor of whatever advances the state of the art for airguns though.
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I ran across this video showing gizmos you can mount the scope on to get radical angles way beyond what the elevation settings on the scope allow, and get repeatable settings too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ogY5WiE60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ogY5WiE60)