• Jefferson State Airrifles
  • Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
  • Hajimoto Productions
  • Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
  • Nielsen Specialty Ammo
  • Dynamic Air Rifles
  • FX Airguns
  • DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
  • Airgun Archery Fun
  • Pyramyd Air
  • Saber Tactical
  • New England Airgun
  • Umarex Airguns
  • Contact us
  • Utah Airguns
  • SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
  • Freedom Gun Targets
  • Evanix Airguns at Airgun Pro Shop
Jefferson State Airrifles
Air Gun Web - Expert Airgun Reviews
Hajimoto Productions
Airgun Angie - Backyard Shooting
Nielsen Specialty Ammo
Dynamic Air Rifles
FX Airguns
DonnyFL - When silence is a priority
Airgun Archery Fun
Pyramyd Air
Saber Tactical
New England Airgun
Umarex Airguns
Contact us
Utah Airguns
SEKHMET Airgun Accessories
Freedom Gun Targets
Evanix Airguns at Airgun Pro Shop


Author Topic: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?  (Read 283 times))

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« on: June 19, 2021, 10:10:21 PM »
❓ WHY are most bulls' eyes so large and so dark?


Most of the paper targets of official competitions seem to have a very large bulls' eye. And that bulls' eye is black, the darkest "color" in the "spectrum".


I am asking because my target scan and scoring app only works with official competition targets.


And the problem with BIG BLACK BULLS is... —
that when they come charging they can easily gore me in the chest.
Sorry, I got distracted, let me try this again:

The problem with BIG BLACK BULLS is... —
that I can't see my impacts at larger distances....
I already use a 3-18x50 for 100y.... 😟 


Now, the NUAH target is available as a white sheet with a few concentric circles and a tiny dot in the middle. Great! 👍🏼 
Why do official competitions — where scopes are the norm — keep using big black bulls...? 🤔   


Enlighten me, plz. 😊
Thanks.

Matthias

  • Lima, PERU

Offline Scott_Tx

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 126
  • yes
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2021, 12:05:56 AM »
I use the 'shoot-n-c' type targets when I'm sighting in new scopes. saves a lot of walking :)
  • usa, wv, beckley

Offline Jshooter71

  • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 5945
  • ~Ora et Labora~
  • Real Name: John
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 08:14:08 AM »
Seeing my impacts is actually oftentimes distracting. I am often pleasantly surprised to see my groups when I just keep pumping them into the target. As long as I don’t see a wary impact into the white, I’m usually confident I’m good to go. I like shoot & see targets, but I may prematurely make an adjustment. Either to the sight or my POA.
  • USA, Arkansas, Prairie Grove
Daisy 1938 Red Ryder 70th Anniversary
DPMS Panther A4 Classic .177 UTG 2-16x44
Umarex Octane Elite .22 UTG 2-16x44
Diana AMO3 Stealth .22 UTG 2-16x44
Beeman QB78 Deluxe .177 UTG 3-12x32
Walther Terrus .177 (gifted by fwbsport) UTG 3-9x40
Walther LGU Varmint .22 UTG 6-24x56
FDAR XS60C .177 REX 3-12x40
Walther Parrus .22 Factory Sights
Feinwerkbau (FWB) Sport .177 Factory Sights

“Slay dragons, do noble deeds and never, never give up.”

Find other GTA members in your area. 🇺🇸
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067

Offline JMJ in NC

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 810
  • Real Name: John
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2021, 09:18:05 AM »
Aperture sights favor a black circle POA. Scopes are the norm now, but not always, and not for “short” distances.

Per Jshooter71, I know I’m having a good session at 10m freehand rifle (aperture sights) when I can’t see any of my shots.

JMJinNC

  • Hillsborough, NC
Paper, fur & feathers

Offline sb327

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
  • yes
  • Real Name: David
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2021, 09:38:56 AM »
Shooting iron sights at 100 favors a large round bull.

A scope changes everything when shooting at 100 or more. Including ability to see shots.

So my thought is that it is big to be more INCLUSIVE……… ;D ;D :o

Dave
  • USA, OK, Stigler
Dave

Offline Jshooter71

  • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 5945
  • ~Ora et Labora~
  • Real Name: John
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2021, 09:47:35 AM »
Shooting iron sights at 100 favors a large round bull.

A scope changes everything when shooting at 100 or more. Including ability to see shots.

So my thought is that it is big to be more INCLUSIVE……… ;D ;D :o

Dave


Haha!  ;D
  • USA, Arkansas, Prairie Grove
Daisy 1938 Red Ryder 70th Anniversary
DPMS Panther A4 Classic .177 UTG 2-16x44
Umarex Octane Elite .22 UTG 2-16x44
Diana AMO3 Stealth .22 UTG 2-16x44
Beeman QB78 Deluxe .177 UTG 3-12x32
Walther Terrus .177 (gifted by fwbsport) UTG 3-9x40
Walther LGU Varmint .22 UTG 6-24x56
FDAR XS60C .177 REX 3-12x40
Walther Parrus .22 Factory Sights
Feinwerkbau (FWB) Sport .177 Factory Sights

“Slay dragons, do noble deeds and never, never give up.”

Find other GTA members in your area. 🇺🇸
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067

Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2270
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 12:24:50 AM »
I think it is as was mentioned.
Iron sight and aperture were first, then scopes came into popular use.  But the bulls were not reduced in size for scopes.  Iron, aperture or scope, all use the same targets.

I used a 20x spotting scope at 50 yards for 22RF, and never had problems not being able to see the .22 holes.
The few times that I shot a 100 yards, I could still see the .22 holes in the black, good enough to score the shot. 
If you have trouble seeing the holes, I suggest a GOOD optical quality spotting scope of at least 20x.

The other issue is heat mirage.
The air distortion from heat mirage makes it harder to see the small holes.
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle

Online avator

  • Global Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 31485
  • Happiness is a warm airgun... -Lennon Modded-
  • Real Name: Bill
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 08:38:59 AM »
Black ink is cheaper than color...  :o   8)
  • From deep within the Rabbit Hole, Alabama

Offline Blacktalon6

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • yes
  • Real Name: Ed
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 08:23:19 PM »
They were made for powder burners that are not as accurate  ;D
  • CT
RWS 34 .22
RWS 48 .22
Talon SS .22
Condor SS .25
Evanix Rex .45

Offline mrbulk

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 5520
  • Little things affect little minds” - Thoreau
  • Real Name: Charlie
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 08:36:17 PM »
Ah feels yore pain!
If you don’t mind using up a little printer ink I sometimes Google for targets online and save/print the ones I like.

This one is easy to see the hits on:
  • Las Vegas, NV, USA
Remember that none of this will matter in a hundred years. Have fun now.

Offline jmoronic

  • Trust me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1524
  • yes
  • Real Name: John
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 08:42:44 PM »
You guys are using paper targets?
I have been shooting fly's off of the dog poop ;D
  • USA, DE, Newark
Life as I know it, in Dog years

Offline Mole2017

  • Squirrel Researcher
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2351
  • Real Name: David
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 10:21:51 PM »
Way back when I owned an inkjet, ink was expensive and commercially printed targets were both expensive and printed on so-so paper. Wanting to print my own targets on paper I liked, I came up with this pattern:



The outer band gives me something big enough to call a target and "coloring" it grey further reduces the amount of ink I commit to a target and works with the "white space" to make it easier to see impacts.

It was just done up in Word with the grid set to 0.1" so that the center bull is 0.2" across and then each band is just 0.1" thick, making the overall diameter 0.6". I did most of my shooting at 30 yards or less and could lay out sheets of targets with anywhere from 6 to 15 bulls. Really early on I was printing something like 20 to a sheet just for the practice of shooting at 15 or 20 yards.

Wow that brings back memories. I was new to air rifles and had just bought a refurbished CFX. To get practice and maybe break in the CFX (I forget), I made a point of shooting off a bunch of shots each day. Slowly but surely, I improved and the pellet trap was gradually set up farther and farther away.
  • Pendleton, SC
Gamo CFX .177 and .22, old style triggers
BSA R10 MK2 .177
Crosman 1377

Offline pdxFrank

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 10:50:30 PM »
That's what a spotting scope is for. :)

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 12:32:31 AM »
Here's a PDF a many official target shooting disciplines, with the size of their bulls' eyes noted.


🔶 You will see that many are very large (wasting black ink did not seem to be an issue with many, some are blue, still not very helpful to see hits).
Some are 2 to 3 inches in diameter. And very few are 1 inch.
🔶 But if I want to shoot 1-inch groups, or 1/2-inch groups — well, then a 1-inch black blob does not help me see my impacts.... 😟 

Matthias


Attachment:
  • Lima, PERU

Offline JungleShooter

  • How ironic 🤦🏼‍♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
  • There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
  • Real Name: Matthias
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 12:51:09 AM »
Thanks for all your explanations of the big black bull phenomenon — and your suggestions how to overcome it! 👍🏼


🔶 Your Explanations

● The bulls are so large because they were designed for when most shooters were using iron sights which need large bulls.
➔ Someone might want to make the accusation that these target disciplines are loaded down with traditionalism as heavy as the lead they shoot, and not open to adapt to the light air of progress and the bright future (i.e., scopes).... 🤔

● The bulls are so large because when they were designed the powder burners were less accurate than today's air rifles.
➔ This also could lead to the accusation of the traditionalism of these target disciplines — peppered with a dose of disdain for powder burners.... 🤔


● The large bulls are an attempt to dumb everything down to the smallest common denominator — in this case, iron sights that need large bulls.
➔ It has been suggested in a post that this might be a case of exaggerated "inclusion", applying the lessons of a seminar on inclusion in less than helpful ways.... 🤔   


🔴 Your explanations all point to one thing — that many target disciplines have stayed in the past, in their traditions, and have not moved with the advance of technology and the reality of typical shooting.
I'm saddened by that. 😟 


Break:  OK, we just had a 5.5 earthquake. Let me clean up what fell off the shelves.
To be continued....



🔶 Your Suggestions of Work-Arounds

● Printing my own targets
● Using splatter targets / shoot-n-c targets
● Using a spotting scope

● Stop getting distracted by tracking hits/ misses, and concentrate on shooting

● Replacing the bureacratic paper targets with something more organic like flies on dog poop



🔴 Guys, great suggestions, thanks!  👍🏼
I love the last one especially. I myself have gone more organic at times and have collected the snails that are eating my plants — with snails I don't have to wonder if I hit or if I missed — snails don't lie! 🤣 



🔴 However, my struggle is that the app that scans and scores my targets automatically includes hundreds of different paper targets, but does not include any of the targets you mention in your suggestions.... 😟


Matthias 😊
  • Lima, PERU

Offline Insanity

  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
  • 3D printing guru.
  • Real Name: Matt
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2021, 02:27:02 AM »
To make people who cannot shoot feel gooder of their sloppy groups... Ok really I think a large center bull is used for larger calibers to determine accuracy that is not adapted to .25 and lower calibers. I dont care for it also as I want a very precise point to aim at which is why I purchased a 50 pack of these and I aim at the cross sections. If I do my diligence here I set up the cross lines to be + and not some sort of skewed x angle. Regardless I aim at the center of each cross section of lines I do beleave you have approximately 100 places to aim per target which is easy to see impact with naked eye upto 30 yards for me.

https://www.amazon.com/Sight-Adhesive-SPLATTERBURST-Shooting-Targets/dp/B01MG0C506/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=shoot%2Band%2Bsee&qid=1624425645&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1
  • Carey OH
Treat others better than you want to be treated.

Offline Duckster

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 156
  • Real Name: charlie
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2021, 07:08:21 AM »
Did I miss the "distance" reply?

I believe that some target scoring areas are based on shooting distance. I know that the 600 yard black scoring area is larger than a 100 yard scoring area.
  • Location: 10M from target
My favorite air gun ?

Gamo P-430                               Crossman SNR 357
Beeman P-17                             Crossman CR 357
Umarex Glock 19                       Daisy 426
Umarex UX 357                          Morini 163Ei

Daisy Red Ryder                          Hatsan Edge
Daisy 853                                     Xisico Sentry 705 - 9K
Winchester 1100                         Springfield M1A

Offline chico

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 455
  • yes
  • Real Name: chuck
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2021, 07:21:30 AM »
i always believed the black scoring area was based on MOA for a particular distance
  • Port Clinton, Ohio

Offline ac12

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2270
Re: ❓ Paper Targets: WHY are there BIG BLACK BULLS?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2021, 02:33:46 PM »
OK, so it appears that you have TWO very different problems.
#1 - You cannot see the pellet holes in the black, with your 18x rifle scope. 
#2 - Your scoring app will only work on official competition targets.  So you can't use non-standard targets.

#1
You have not clarified this issue; exactly how FAR are you shooting, what size pellet are you shooting, and what are the shooting conditions?

I have never had a problem seeing the pellet/bullet hole in the black bull.
So the specific conditions where YOU cannot see the pellet holes is important, to understanding the problem.

No target company will make custom sized targets just for you.  Unless you pay for the design work and buy a whole print run.
If you want custom size targets, in smaller quantities, you have to print your own.

If I cannot see the target (the black bull), then I cannot aim the rifle, then I cannot hit the target. 
So there is such a thing as "too small."

What is too small?  We are back to the specifics of your shooting conditions.
What distance to the target? 
What optics (3-18x50), what brand and model?
What shooting condition?

#2
Until the ISSF, NRA or whoever the ruling body is, decides on new smaller "scope" competition targets, you will not get the target that you want. 

The solution for this is your app.
Rather than complain about the targets, which will likely NOT change, you need to convince the app designer to modify the app, to allow it to scan and input a "new" target and add it to the database.  Then you can use ANY non-standard target that you want.
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
10 meter target Air Pistol and Air Rifle