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Author Topic: .257 cal Monocoque PCP  (Read 54059 times))

Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2015, 11:43:34 PM »
113 gr. is 1.028" long (4 calibers), with a calculated BC of 0.400.... the 102 gr. is 0.900" long.... I also designed a 90 gr., which is 0.771" (3 calibers) long....

Bob
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 11:45:33 PM by rsterne »
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline MJP

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCPu
« Reply #141 on: December 27, 2015, 03:53:43 AM »
It does look good, and I know the feeling when you get the very first one built that is truly yours.
All the planning and machining coming together as your own unique gun.

Marko
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Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2015, 08:11:24 PM »
Yesterday and today I machined the J-slot for the bolt handle in both the Monocoque tube and the Breechblock.... I also installed a Velocity Adjuster that works by choking the barrel port by preventing the bolt handle from withdrawing fully into the lower part of the J-slot.... I consists of a 3/16" rod running in a milled slot, and a 10-32 screw to control the position of it.... In addition, there is a small set-screw which presses a plastic plug against the side of the adjusting screw to act as a brake to prevent it from moving by itself.... Here is the Breechblock, showing the J-slot, bolt handle, and adjuster.... In this photo, it is closed about 30% from wide open....



I'm very pleased with the positioning of the bolt handle and cocking handle.... I was a bit concerned that your hand might hit the bolt handle when cocking the gun, but I can wrap my big mitt around it no problem and my knuckle doesn't (quite) touch the bolt handle during cocking.... Here is a photo of the gun in the cocked position....



You can see that the bolt handle is fully back in the J-slot in that photo, which means that the nose of the bolt is completely clear of the barrel port.... Here is a photo of the gun unloaded, with the cocking handle forward (uncocked) and the breech open for loading.... There is lots of clearance between it and the scope....



I also made a brake for the hammer spring preload position adjuster today, to prevent that from adjusting itself as well.... This completes the major part of the machining on this project.... I can assemble everything now, except I am still waiting for the bolts to secure the Valve and Fill Fitting, so I can't as yet pressure test it.... I measured the reservoir today, and it is a whisker over 400 cc, not including the volume inside the valve, so I should have about 25 CI of air available.... If I can manage to tune for a shot string from 3800 psi down to 3000 (55 bar), that works out to 1375 CI, which would work out to about 7 shots at 200 FPE, if I can get the gun to produce 1 FPE/CI at that power level (which is likely a stretch).... I am more likely to tune it for tethered use at 3800 psi, and to get 3 shots within a very narrow ES off tether.... What the FPE level ends up when tuned like that.... is now the big question....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2015, 09:48:06 PM »
Bob, I noticed that your length of pull is adjustable.  What is the range and what is you preference?

Bill G
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline Bryan Heimann

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2015, 11:30:41 PM »
0.400 bc, in a small bore air rifle, is nuts.  If you could work it out to get 8 accurate shots in the ballpark of 200 fpe, it would be something else.  The extreme bench rest dudes should be beating down your door...
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Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2015, 11:40:24 PM »
The LOP is adjustable from 13-15", I usually use around 14".... The drop from cheekpiece to shoulder pad is also adjustable, in six 1/4" increments, over a range of 1-1/4".... I can also twist the shoulder pad to any angle....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline LeadBreakfast

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #146 on: December 28, 2015, 01:54:10 AM »
I cannot express how impressed I am with the entire process you have shown us, from design to follow through. Can't wait to see what she will do, I'm sure that the results will speak for themselves. Absolutely outstanding, Bob!
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Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #147 on: December 28, 2015, 07:11:39 AM »
The LOP is adjustable from 13-15", I usually use around 14".... The drop from cheekpiece to shoulder pad is also adjustable, in six 1/4" increments, over a range of 1-1/4".... I can also twist the shoulder pad to any angle....

Bob

Nice and versatile.  I too like about 14" lop.  I had not noticed the other two adjustments.  It looks like you are going to use fairly low mounts also.  Have you considered maybe making an adjustable elevation mount since this is going to be a long range rig.  Say some thing made to give 50 MOA per revolution.  Who knows, you might be the next 1000yr guy. At least it looks like it has long range written all over it, especially when we see those ICBM's you're planning to use for slugs LOL.  Very nice build indeed and pretty darned quick too.  Especially based on the equipment that you have discussed.  Goes to show you, CNC isn't always the answer.  That project would have take 30% longer if you would have written CNC programs.  One off is one off and a DRO will get you there faster than CNC IMO.  I'll be anxiously waiting on your results. 

Very  8)

BillG   
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #148 on: December 28, 2015, 11:25:14 AM »
Bob,  are you securing the end caps by way of threads or the screw head method?  if the screws, how do you determine how much web you need to a safe build?  Is there a formula that you employ? I think that I can do this method faster than threading.  Whats your preference?

Bill G
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #149 on: December 28, 2015, 04:18:13 PM »
Bill.... There is 40 MOA machined into the Picatinny rail, which should put me on the paper at 200 yards with the scope near optical zero.... It has about 140 MOA of adjustment due to the 35mm tube, and the MilDots are calibrated at 25X.... so by just cranking up the Elevation and using the MilDots I should be good to 500 yards.... The scope came with rings, but they are very tall, so even with the sun shield and the angle on the scope rail the front of the scope clears the Monocoque tube by a wide margin....

What's a DRO ?!?.... I'm kidding, of course.... but my old Atlas and I still manage with handwheels and an edge-finder, thank you very much.... *LOL*.... I use a dial guage on the ways for carriage travel.... 1" of movement at a time, of course.... but for knowing how much of a pass you are making for milling, or how deep a hole you are drilling, that works OK....

The end caps (Valve and Fill Fitting) are secured with four 1/4"-28 SHCSs each, set 1/8" into the plug, so that the shear plane is above the root of the threads (even though that wasn't necessary).... Using the root diameter of the threads in the shear calculation, my safety margin is 4:1 at 3800 psi.... and the yield of the pockets in the tube on the heads is 2.7:1 (way more than the 2:1 required on that).... The tube hoop strength is 3.9:1 using UTS at that pressure, and all critical safety factors on the pressure vessel are above 3.5:1 at 4200 psi.... so in reality that is the MSWP I can use.... in fact even at 4500 psi they are well over 3:1....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2015, 05:40:59 PM »
The tooling for the bullet moulds has been ordered from NOE.... therefore moulds for the 101 gr. and 112 gr. Bob's Boattails I need for this project should be available early in the New Year.... I'll keep you posted as to when they can be ordered, in case anyone else is interested.... Mike at TJ's reduced the land diameter of the barrel to 0.248" (the groove diameter is still 0.257") to make sure that the 7" twist rifling gets a good "bite" on the bullet.... so I reduced the mid-body of the bullets to 0.246" to make sure it doesn't touch the lands and cause additional drag....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline Michael Loar

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2015, 12:58:51 PM »
Bob

Very well thought and engineered project that has got to be begging to be tested and the fact that you now have to wait for the bullet molds to arrive just to start testing would be more than I could handle but then I am sure you still have plenty of little tweaks needing completed to keep you busy till the molds arrive. You say sometime in mid January we should see some testing numbers and just what all your hard work has produced. I am on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it shoots and if you obtain your goals envisioned for it.

Mike
  • Oxford, Alabama
Benjamin Marauder 177 in Boyds blaster stock 
Benjamin Marauder25 Wicked Air rifles bottled
Hatsan 22 AT 44S10 long
FWB 124 177 Tuned
FWB 300s Match L 177 Tuned
FWB 300s Match Junior 177 Tuned
Diana 48 177 Vortek Tuned
Xisisco 60C PCP Tuned 22
Xisisco 60C PCP 177 tuned LW barrel
Benjamin Titan NP 22 Tuned GRT trigger
Crosman Titan GP 22 Tuned GRT trigger
Crosman Venom 177 Tuned GRT trigger
Taipan Mutant Standard 22, BSA FFP 4x14x44 scope
TX200 , TL 22mm kit 177
B-40, TL 22mm kit 177
B50 in 51 stock Tuned .177
CH2009 challenger 177
1720T carbine regulated 177
Prod carbine with AR butt stock 22
CZ200 regulated 177
C9 silver streak 20 rocker safety
Crosman 1400 X 2 177 and 22
B28 Mike Melick tuned 25
Hatsan flash 25
Daisy 853 X 5 177
B3-2 177
Benji Maximus 177 Mrod trigger
QB 78/79 177 and 22 HPA bottled
HW Blue Laminate 97 .22cal tuned
1966 Diana model 60 Tyro resealed and tuned




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Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #152 on: December 30, 2015, 12:13:56 PM »
Bob

Very well thought and engineered project that has got to be begging to be tested and the fact that you now have to wait for the bullet molds to arrive just to start testing would be more than I could handle but then I am sure you still have plenty of little tweaks needing completed to keep you busy till the molds arrive. You say sometime in mid January we should see some testing numbers and just what all your hard work has produced. I am on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it shoots and if you obtain your goals envisioned for it.

Mike

Naaaah, waiting on molds isn't but a tick on the clock.  Waiting for spring, that would be maddening.  lol
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2015, 12:28:18 PM »
The built in 40 MOA is a good call for a gun that is intended for longer distances.  Its a lot less expensive and/or easier than building or buying a mount that will adjust.   

So you use a 2.7x thread root diameter to locate the head pocket from the end of the tube?  Did I misinterpret that? I've not used this method but once and it was on a design that used WAAAY less pressure than we discuss here.  Is this the hop strength calculation that you mentioned?

Bill G     
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2015, 04:03:56 PM »
No, I meant that the load on the pockets in the tube has a 2.7:1 safety margin to the yield point of the CrMoly.... The screw heads load the tube wall, over an area equal to the diameter of the hole times the thickness of the tube.... That load, for pressure vessels, must be less than 2/3rd of the yield strength of the material (a safety margin of 1.5:1).... but I always use at least 2:1 so that the load is less than the fatigue zone of the steel.... That way, they are good for an infinite number of cycles.... The hoop strength (burst pressure of the tube) and the shear strength of the bolts are supposed to have a safety margin of 3.5:1 based on the ultimate tensile strength of the material (derated 60% for the bolts in shear).... Those criteria on my tube and bolts exceed 3.5:1 at 4200 psi, so that would be the approved MSWP of the reservoir....

The distance of the pocket from the end of the tube, for calculating the tearout strength, is based on the distance from the center of the hole to the end of the tube, times 2, because there are two shear planes, one on either side of the hole.... The holes locating the Fill Fitting are 2 hole diameters (0.75") from the end of the tube, and there are 4 holes, so the safety margin is about 9:1.... With that many screws, having the center of the hole only 1 diameter from the end of the tube would be plenty.... The rule of thumb is to have the center of the hole 1.5 diameters from the end of the tube (the side of the hole at least the diameter from the end).... but that only applies for a single screw.... and is still affected by the thickness of the tube.... It just gives a quick visual, if the hole is at least it's diameter from the end of the tube, it is probably far enough.... Better to do the math, IMO....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).

Offline Airgun.Sniper

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2015, 04:12:05 PM »
 I havent read evrything but thats pretty cool.
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Offline rkr

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2015, 04:33:51 PM »
The tooling for the bullet moulds has been ordered from NOE.... therefore moulds for the 101 gr. and 112 gr. Bob's Boattails I need for this project should be available early in the New Year.... I'll keep you posted as to when they can be ordered, in case anyone else is interested.... Mike at TJ's reduced the land diameter of the barrel to 0.248" (the groove diameter is still 0.257") to make sure that the 7" twist rifling gets a good "bite" on the bullet.... so I reduced the mid-body of the bullets to 0.246" to make sure it doesn't touch the lands and cause additional drag....

Bob

In principle that means that .25 pellet noses should work as bore riding in those barrels. Dagn, I wish we could get those liners here in Europe as well.
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Offline Bill G

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2015, 09:22:34 PM »
The tooling for the bullet moulds has been ordered from NOE.... therefore moulds for the 101 gr. and 112 gr. Bob's Boattails I need for this project should be available early in the New Year.... I'll keep you posted as to when they can be ordered, in case anyone else is interested.... Mike at TJ's reduced the land diameter of the barrel to 0.248" (the groove diameter is still 0.257") to make sure that the 7" twist rifling gets a good "bite" on the bullet.... so I reduced the mid-body of the bullets to 0.246" to make sure it doesn't touch the lands and cause additional drag....

Bob

In principle that means that .25 pellet noses should work as bore riding in those barrels. Dagn, I wish we could get those liners here in Europe as well.

I missed that completely.  The JSB's that I've measured are .250 at the head and .255-.258 at the skirt, depending on how rough the shipping was I suppose.  so, In theory, you could shoot pellets in that barrel also and expect a good result.  That might make a good universal barrel, especially in the reg 14 Twist.  interesting. 

You can probably get them but shipping would be out right financial molestation.

Bill G
  • Nicholasville KY
Engineering is the art of modeling materials we don't wholly understand, into shapes we can't precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we can't properly asses, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

Offline Michael Loar

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #158 on: December 31, 2015, 01:42:21 AM »


Naaaah, waiting on molds isn't but a tick on the clock.  Waiting for spring, that would be maddening.  lol


[/quote]

Bill

Yea the waiting for winter to get over would be a real drag for sure and not sure where Bob is but down here in Dixie it was 77 degrees Christmas day and sunny so we have not even had a winter as of yet.

I would go mad waiting for the snow to melt just to shoot the new toy and I guess is why I live in Dixie as we don't usually have enough winter to worry about and definitely not enough to go mad waiting for spring to arrive.

Sweet home Alabama.

Mike
  • Oxford, Alabama
Benjamin Marauder 177 in Boyds blaster stock 
Benjamin Marauder25 Wicked Air rifles bottled
Hatsan 22 AT 44S10 long
FWB 124 177 Tuned
FWB 300s Match L 177 Tuned
FWB 300s Match Junior 177 Tuned
Diana 48 177 Vortek Tuned
Xisisco 60C PCP Tuned 22
Xisisco 60C PCP 177 tuned LW barrel
Benjamin Titan NP 22 Tuned GRT trigger
Crosman Titan GP 22 Tuned GRT trigger
Crosman Venom 177 Tuned GRT trigger
Taipan Mutant Standard 22, BSA FFP 4x14x44 scope
TX200 , TL 22mm kit 177
B-40, TL 22mm kit 177
B50 in 51 stock Tuned .177
CH2009 challenger 177
1720T carbine regulated 177
Prod carbine with AR butt stock 22
CZ200 regulated 177
C9 silver streak 20 rocker safety
Crosman 1400 X 2 177 and 22
B28 Mike Melick tuned 25
Hatsan flash 25
Daisy 853 X 5 177
B3-2 177
Benji Maximus 177 Mrod trigger
QB 78/79 177 and 22 HPA bottled
HW Blue Laminate 97 .22cal tuned
1966 Diana model 60 Tyro resealed and tuned




Bikes, Guns and Family is all I need for a good day

Offline rsterne

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Re: .257 cal Monocoque PCP
« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2015, 02:20:08 AM »
My range will clear of snow about April.... *LOL*.... and then the Motel will get busy by Mid-May.... so my shooting time will be VERY limited.... With luck I will get time to bust some Ground Squirrels with it in June....

bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦 Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦

Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).