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Author Topic: new to me Extreme .457  (Read 2271 times))

Offline steveoh

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2020, 06:08:55 PM »
This is an interesting thread. I have a .458 Quackenbush LA Outlaw I shot this past Sunday. With a 3400 psi fill and 220 grain home cast bullet I was hitting 956 fps for 446.57 FPE. It was singing. I will say I get two shots and that's it. A third shot might/will empty out the gun completely.  The smack on steel at 100yards is pretty substantial. I shot out to 250 yards and it's happy rifle and shooter too.

The bullet comes from a AirHog / Noe mold. I used the flat nose pins, but have hollow point and cup point. Going to powder coat the next batch so barrel cleaning is minimal.

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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2020, 06:40:01 PM »
I remember reading up on the legendary Quackenbush guns throughout the years. The maker was a trailblazer in the big bore market.  Some day I may pick up one of those pistols that pop up every once in a while.  Any other tunes that you've run with the Outlaw?

Brent definitely designed this gun to run on 4500psi.  I think he sized the throat a little small which contributed to excessive ES and less peak power.  He was also known to run helium, so maybe helium consumption was the reason for the small throat.. 

By trying to tune it more conservatively,  I think I'm going to be able to find a fairly economical hunting tune at 3500-3800psi and still have 3 shots above 400fpe.  Then with a simple spring/hammer change go back to slinging 302gr at 920fps on a 4500psi fill.  Somewhere along the way I'd like to find a 5+ shot 300fpe plinking tune with relatively flat ES.
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Offline steveoh

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2020, 07:08:52 PM »
Early on the DAQ was dumping on the second shot. Talked to Dennis and he said up the fill pressure from 3000 psi to 3300 psi and maybe a little more to see if that doesn't fix the dump. He said he tests the guns at much higher pressures, and didn't bat an eye at increasing it over specified pressure.

I think I could take a little off the hammer spring and get three decent shots, and have air left over. This is why your thread is interesting to me. You are doing what I should probably do. I have varied the pressure from 3k to 3700 psi. I've had extended conversations with Mr. Hollowpoint, and Eric Henderson. Both have owned many Quackenbush's, and both told me the same thing, that the gun is built heavy duty and most of the rifles seem to have a sweet spot of 3300-3700 psi. That's 10-19% increase over what Dennis says on his website. The kick is more substantial at those higher pressures. But as Dennis says, gauges tend to not agree with each other and each gun is unique, and that's why he's okay with upping to the 10% while suggesting that a little more is ok. BB Pelletier said his .308 Outlaw liked 3200-3500 psi.

I giggled with almost every shot I made on Sunday. :)



I remember reading up on the legendary Quackenbush guns throughout the years. The maker was a trailblazer in the big bore market.  Some day I may pick up one of those pistols that pop up every once in a while.  Any other tunes that you've run with the Outlaw?

Brent definitely designed this gun to run on 4500psi.  I think he sized the throat a little small which contributed to excessive ES and less peak power.  He was also known to run helium, so maybe helium consumption was the reason for the small throat.. 

By trying to tune it more conservatively,  I think I'm going to be able to find a fairly economical hunting tune at 3500-3800psi and still have 3 shots above 400fpe.  Then with a simple spring/hammer change go back to slinging 302gr at 920fps on a 4500psi fill.  Somewhere along the way I'd like to find a 5+ shot 300fpe plinking tune with relatively flat ES.
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2020, 07:09:25 PM »
The low rings arrived as did a piece of 1mm wall CF tubing.  I've read a few posts where other owners report the barrel being a little on the whippy side and accuracy improving with some extra barrel reinforcement.  I have not glued it in place yet, this was more of a test fit so see if it detracts from looks any.  So far I think it blends in pretty well.  it doesn't quite fill the gap between barrel and tube, but unfortunately the gap was just a hair too small to go with 2mm wall. 

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Offline rsterne

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2020, 07:22:41 PM »
I asked Dennis about overfilling my Exile, and all he would say is that the recommended fill pressure was 3000 psi, as it states in the owner's manual....  ::)

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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2020, 07:35:07 PM »
Early on the DAQ was dumping on the second shot. Talked to Dennis and he said up the fill pressure from 3000 psi to 3300 psi and maybe a little more to see if that doesn't fix the dump. He said he tests the guns at much higher pressures, and didn't bat an eye at increasing it over specified pressure.

I think I could take a little off the hammer spring and get three decent shots, and have air left over. This is why your thread is interesting to me. You are doing what I should probably do. I have varied the pressure from 3k to 3700 psi. I've had extended conversations with Mr. Hollowpoint, and Eric Henderson. Both have owned many Quackenbush's, and both told me the same thing, that the gun is built heavy duty and most of the rifles seem to have a sweet spot of 3300-3700 psi. That's 10-19% increase over what Dennis says on his website. The kick is more substantial at those higher pressures. But as Dennis says, gauges tend to not agree with each other and each gun is unique, and that's why he's okay with upping to the 10% while suggesting that a little more is ok. BB Pelletier said his .308 Outlaw liked 3200-3500 psi.

I giggled with almost every shot I made on Sunday. :)



I remember reading up on the legendary Quackenbush guns throughout the years. The maker was a trailblazer in the big bore market.  Some day I may pick up one of those pistols that pop up every once in a while.  Any other tunes that you've run with the Outlaw?

Brent definitely designed this gun to run on 4500psi.  I think he sized the throat a little small which contributed to excessive ES and less peak power.  He was also known to run helium, so maybe helium consumption was the reason for the small throat.. 

By trying to tune it more conservatively,  I think I'm going to be able to find a fairly economical hunting tune at 3500-3800psi and still have 3 shots above 400fpe.  Then with a simple spring/hammer change go back to slinging 302gr at 920fps on a 4500psi fill.  Somewhere along the way I'd like to find a 5+ shot 300fpe plinking tune with relatively flat ES.


I've yet to have experience the giggles associated with smacking steel with 400+fpe.  I look forward to it.  Once I get the tunes finished I'll give it a good cleaning and bore polishing then it will be time to sling some lead a ways.

What size is the Quackenbush spring?  I may have a few springs I could share with you depending on what size you need.  The normal tuning principles seem to apply to these big bores.  dual stiff springs with little if any preload result in very snappy, efficient shot cycles without much loss in FPE. 
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2020, 10:50:28 PM »
Just before closing up shop for the evening I decided to try something.  I still have a little over 5k in my nitrogen tank so any full power testing needs to be done soon as I won't be able to do 4500psi fills in a week or so.  I ran a 4500psi string using my 145gram hammer and NSA 254gr.  I didn't think the results were anything special until I compared it with previous 4500psi, heavy spring 254gr data.

With the OEM 182gram hammer, heavy spring, 4500psi fill NSA 254gr

961
920
878

With the 145 gram hammer, heavy spring, 4500psi and NSA 254gr

969
946
896

35grams less hammer tightened things up a bit with this weight slug.  2 shots over 500fpe then a finisher over 450fpe aint too shabby.  out of a 26.5" barrel, had to remind us all of that as I normally think 28" barrel or greater when thinking .457 guns. 
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2020, 10:34:03 AM »
while testing various spring lengths and weights I discovered a problem with consistency.  I believe this is a problem I created, not anything to do with the gun's design.  I do not believe it was ever intended to be ran without some bit of preload on the hammer spring. 

Due to the hammer spring sitting in a shallow cup, when running no preload and when running hammer free-flight, or gap, the spring just floats around.  There is no form of spring guide.  This was causing inconsistent velocity, depending on where the spring landed during that initial bounce off the valve stem. 

Here you can see the end cap/spring cup.



I fashioned a quick spring guide for testing purposes.  A short piece of 1/2 delrin screwed to a 1" fender washer fits perfectly.  This shortens the required spring length by 1/4" but there is an abundance of hammer energy so that's not going to be a problem.



Here is a picture of the OEM heavy spring, a McMaster Car spring that is almost identical, just about 1/4 inch shorter and a touch stiffer.  Then you see where I have been cutting down the McMaster spring 1/4 coil at a time chasing that elusive 3800psi 220gr tune. 



I did find a pretty good 254gr 3800psi tune using the short spring/guide pictured above.  3 shots went 901-903-860. I think I'm going to label that spring and save it for future use.   The only downside is this required excessive gap----almost 1/2".   

Lock time keeps increasing as I lighten the hammer and shot cycle is nice and snappy.  I don't think I want to give that up going to a lighter spring.   I may reduce hammer weight a bit more.

The Mcmaster Car spring part number is 9657K462.  This would be a great spring for a stock Extreme as it still produces full power, but with almost no preload, resulting in a tighter string. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 10:47:59 AM by mackeral5 »
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2020, 03:58:42 PM »
Finally decided to give the barrel a good cleaning and the lapping treatment with JB's bore paste and Mother's.  This required removing the breech/barrel as they are one unit then removing the bolt, being careful not to lose its detent ball and spring, so that the work can be done from the breech end. 

Upon completing the job, I found a little surprise at the muzzle.....

I've mentioned a few times on here when we find a deal that may be too good to be true, or we are wondering why someone is dead set on getting rid of a perfectly good looking gun.  I just figured out one reason this one found itself on the used market. 

A couple of times I had sighted in at 75 yards but resulted in 5" or so groups.  I wrote it off to a dirty barrel which would get cleaned once I was close to the end of tuning....

Check out the crown.









There was a long story about the original owner waiting 18 months for this gun, it was supposedly ordered prior to production moving to TX and was likely one of the last produced in Michigan.  Previously I had a nice discussion with the current manufacturer in TX, which confirmed this one was made in Michigan, so this should not in any way be viewed as an indicator of the current manufacturers processes.

The gun has changed hands once or twice, there could be more to the story than I'm aware of.  So it is hard to determine when and where this occurred....

I think I'll need to find someone to cut/recrown. 
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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2020, 06:37:50 PM »
By the looks of those marks, someone could have tried polishing the barrel with a power tool, resulting in over-sizing the bore some. After the cut and re-crown to fix the barrel, you may experiment with a larger diameter, tighter fitting slug.  I experimented with a smaller slug recently and got a bigger group size with a looser slug.   With that spring running the first two shots being within a few fps it will make a great hunting rig when you get that barrel sorted out.
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2020, 07:46:11 PM »
By the looks of those marks, someone could have tried polishing the barrel with a power tool, resulting in over-sizing the bore some. After the cut and re-crown to fix the barrel, you may experiment with a larger diameter, tighter fitting slug.  I experimented with a smaller slug recently and got a bigger group size with a looser slug.   With that spring running the first two shots being within a few fps it will make a great hunting rig when you get that barrel sorted out.

Virtually impossible to say who what when, but somebody obviously messed up.  It was disappointing when that didn't clean up.  But I'm sure they guy on the other end of the trade found things he didn't like about the gun I traded.  However while that gun will shoot less than MOA at 100 yards and I have targets to prove it, this one won't.  The gun I traded wasn't cosmetically perfect, this one is.....  at the end of the day I am still happy with the trade....

I found a local gunsmith that I plan to visit tomorrow to see about cutting and recrowning.  Assuming we both pass the interview process I'll be leaving the barrel/breech with him for a couple of days.  On my other guns I would have done this myself, but having the barrel/breech permanently attached prevents me from using my normal set of operations....

I measured the damage stopping right at .300 past the muzzle.  Hopefully it loses 1/2 inch or less length...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 08:40:20 PM by mackeral5 »
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2020, 05:48:09 PM »
The local gunsmith I found was able to cut and recrown for me today, I'm glad something finally pushed me to finding this resource.  They are less than 10 miles from my house.... 

I only lost about 3/8" of barrel.  Here's the scrap and the new crown.





That's the good news.

The bad news is we still have major barrel problems.  Slugging the barrel still shows nasty smearing on one side of the slug.  Looking into the barrel with a light shows that the lead is in similar shape, if not worse than the muzzle was.  I pushed an NSA 302gr a few inches into the barrel and then pushed it back out and the same smearing exists, so it appears the problem is at the lead. 

Here are 2 pics taken 180 degrees of each other, a  302gr NSA I pushed through.





I've pushed multiple slugs through and they all look the same.  Whatever tool was used to cut the chamber and lead was off center by a tiny amount.  Since the barrel/breech are one assembly it's hard to see and impossible to get a pic of without a borescope (which will arrive next week.) Looking from the breech end I can see a nice tapered lead from about 9 o'clock to 4 o'clock.  between 4 and 9 o'clock there is a pronounced edge where the cutter was too far to that side of the bore. 

I think this is the rest of the story.....when this gun was built in Michigan, the builder was obviously under some level of duress and put a substandard product out on the market........

I won't touch the lead until the borescope arrives, then I'll share pics.....
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Offline dyotat100

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2020, 10:26:28 PM »
Hate to say it but  that's the way he did stuff.

Blue Thunder on here had his barrel redone a few times. Seem Brent doesn't have chamber reamers. His barrel was chambered .310+. Had Brent redo and it was still .3094" for a .308 barrel.

Most likely your leade is to big and bullet is not centered when entering the rifling

The breech and barrel are not one piece. It is green loctite and set screws. Heat it up and it will come apart

Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2020, 06:29:59 AM »
Doug---I really appreciate your help here. 

It is very sad that this was the one corner I can find that was cut.  All other machine work/tolerances/fitment is spot-on.  I mean, of all things to screw up, the muzzle, chamber and lead??  I'm an at home hack and I've fit a few TJ's blanks that shoot MOA or less at 100 yards.....

What continues to surprise me is the cult like following some of these guns and manufacturers get.  For example, I have owned 2 Flexes.  You would be hard-pressed to find much negative information about them.  However both that I had showed various signs of loose tolerances/practices in manufacturing.  On one--Barrel/breech fitment was very loose.  untension the barrel and good luck finding anything close to optical zero again.  Overtighten the barrel nut, pop the snap ring.  Knock the gun hard, pop the snap ring...  Breech machined a little tight in the bolt screw area---hard to operate with a tight bolt handle.... Nothing but posts about how great the guns are....  Once it was together and running, a sub-moa gun.   Picatinny and dovetail rails were machined just under specs, requiring scope ring modifications to clamp down tight.  Add a Cobra reg to an early gun---better by a die to bring the reg to tube threads to spec, then better buy a bottoming tap to bring the bottle adapter threads to spec.  On the second one, it had a cheap AR stock with a lot of play.  So I replaced it with a Magpul.  then I discovered the play was also in the stock adapter/tube plug.  Had to be shimmed to make tight....

Meanwhile, the guys at JSAR have their challenges, but in recent history nobody has done more to try to bring innovative products to such a broad audience in the airgun tuning community.  They get SKEWERED at every turn....the community basically turned on and ran Travis out of the business.  I know there were other reasons some easy to connect the dots on, others we all will never know, but the mob mentality cancel culture certainly didn't help.......Meanwhile, you will have to look long and hard to find any negative posts about Extreme when it was out of Michigan or WAR. 

I'm slowly learning, don't believe the hype.
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2020, 07:18:16 PM »
A couple of items arrived today. Now I am able to share a pic of the off-center chamber/lead.



A key component of the resolution plan arrived, too.



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Offline Extreme .457

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2020, 11:49:15 PM »
     Hey my Brother, congratulations on getting an awesome Big Bore Air Rifle. I haven't read the thread yet but wanted to answer to your post. My gun was the one Brent made on the video Helium Hogs and Airguns. My gun shot awesome and very very accurate, this TJ barrels and Timny triggers are wonderful. My gun was used strictly for hunting. I used Mr. Hollow Point 280 and his new 255 that he designed especially for this gun. The purpose of the 255 is to insure complete pass thru. The 280 open up huge and usually is lodged on the opposed side of the animal stuck in the hide. My gun preformed best at 4300psi getting 980-990fps with the 280 for the first shot. Accurate out to 175 easy but kept all my kill shots under 125. I did take a few longer shots but for me the hunt is the spot and stalk!! That gun took Fallow, Axis, whitetail, mule deer, Pronghorn and several other animals. I had a very nice offer and wound up selling her. My next gun is the Extreme .408 Carbine.

Best of luck and enjoy that GREAT GUN!!
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2020, 08:32:51 AM »
     Hey my Brother, congratulations on getting an awesome Big Bore Air Rifle. I haven't read the thread yet but wanted to answer to your post. My gun was the one Brent made on the video Helium Hogs and Airguns. My gun shot awesome and very very accurate, this TJ barrels and Timny triggers are wonderful. My gun was used strictly for hunting. I used Mr. Hollow Point 280 and his new 255 that he designed especially for this gun. The purpose of the 255 is to insure complete pass thru. The 280 open up huge and usually is lodged on the opposed side of the animal stuck in the hide. My gun preformed best at 4300psi getting 980-990fps with the 280 for the first shot. Accurate out to 175 easy but kept all my kill shots under 125. I did take a few longer shots but for me the hunt is the spot and stalk!! That gun took Fallow, Axis, whitetail, mule deer, Pronghorn and several other animals. I had a very nice offer and wound up selling her. My next gun is the Extreme .408 Carbine.

Best of luck and enjoy that GREAT GUN!!

Valente, thanks for adding to the discussion.   I've read good bit of the posts chronicling your Extreme journey.  Very informative and made for great reading too.   

I don't recall, but what was your barrel length?  I'm curious to see what changes to expect when I go from the current 26.5" to 32".

Everything on this gun was perfectly made, except the fairly simple operations of cutting a crown and cutting the chamber/lead.  Both were cut well off-center as shown in the above pics.  I guess the manufacturer was just over and done with the airgun  business when this one was sent out the door....
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Offline mackeral5

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Re: new to me Extreme .457
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2020, 11:05:44 AM »
It's been a couple months since I updated this one.... I ended up picking up my parts from the local guy, I came to the realization that the work I was asking him to do was too far outside of his comfort zone.  Specifically, creating the chamber/lead reamer and cutting the chamber/lead were things he was not familiar with and this had him sortof vapor-locked.  This was somewhat disappointing, however this was much better than him making a mess of things and me ending up with much less than 32" of usable barrel blank...

So I ended up modifying my taper pin reamer to use in cutting the chamber/lead.  Now I have reamers for .257, .300, .357, and .457 barrels... They are all made from ~$25 used ebay taper pin reamers.  This one started life as a #8.



This one cut very well, obviously it was in pretty good used condition when I bought it. 

I'm having difficulty getting a good pic of the lead, but let me assure you it is a nice gradual taper,, centered in the bore with no ridges/steps. 



Now I will take the barrel/breech back to the local guy and he will fit the barrel to breech.  Perhaps I can get him to match the barrel port to transfer port, but if not I'll do that myself as well...

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