GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: Bill_in_TR on November 24, 2021, 10:54:14 AM
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I was just thinking about the fact that the vast majority of us use variable power scopes on our air rifles. What got my curiosity going was wondering how many folks use that variability much at all. I tend to set mine to the highest magnification and it stays there most if not all of the time.
Now I don't have any scopes whose range includes any of the higher magnifications over 16x so maybe that is why I don't often feel the need to dial them down. About the only time I use lower magnifications at all is if I am shooting unsupported either standing or kneeling.
This kind of makes me curious if there are many fixed power scopes with AO above 8x.
Has anyone else out there had such weird thoughts or am I an oddball?
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You may or may not be an oddball - that's not for me to judge. Most of my scopes are variable power and remain set in one place below the power ability of the scope. I think most airgunners like having the variable power or manufacturers are convinced of that since those are the scopes you see regularly. There don't seem to be many fixed power scopes from which to choose so they don't sell. Since more variables are sold that seems to be where the values lie. I enjoyed the flexibility of variable power when I first got into airgunning but if I found a good value on a fixed power scope of about sixteen power I'd probably jump on it for my next scope. I like the ability to see the holes as they appear in the target. I have found 24 power to be too picky on head placement. Ten to sixteen power seems to suit me best.
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I'm not a fan of variable power rifle scopes, changing power adds another variable to run through my little pea brain when I want to hit something
Most my scopes set at about half power.
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A decent 4 - 16X scope is in the $200 - $250 range. Imagine the quality that could be built into a $250 fixed power 16X! Better glass, parallax could be engineered to be exact, and strong enough to hold up under ANY recoil.
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A decent 4 - 16X scope is in the $200 - $250 range. Imagine the quality that could be built into a $250 fixed power 16X! Better glass, parallax could be engineered to be exact, and strong enough to hold up under ANY recoil.
That is my thinking on the subject as well. It would seem that eliminating the variable power optics and mechanics would make for a more rugged scope with better optics for the same money or less than a variable with the equivalent max power.
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I'm not a fan of variable power rifle scopes, changing power adds another variable to run through my little pea brain when I want to hit something
Most my scopes set at about half power.
That is why "pea brains" such as you should get a First focal Plane scope. :D ;)
-Y
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Well here you go:
https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x (https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x)
I did not know that Hawke makes one... ::)
-Y
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Well here you go:
https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x (https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x)
I did not know that Hawke makes one... ::)
-Y
Hmmmmm. That link doesn't take me to what I expected it too. Nothing fixed power any way
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Well here you go:
https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x (https://www.opticsplanet.com/riflescopes.html?_iv_gridSize=240&_iv_parent-minimum-magnification=10-x&_iv_parent-maximum-magnification=10-x)
I did not know that Hawke makes one... ::)
-Y
Hmmmmm. That link doesn't take me to what I expected it too. Nothing fixed power any way
Scroll down... the fixed 10X are listed at the bottom.
That Vector 10x44mm SCOL-09 caught my attention.
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Oops. My bad. Didn't scroll far enough. Didn't expect more product down there. Yeah that Vector looks interesting. So does the Valiant. I don't know anything about those brands though.
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Id be all over a fixed 45 or more power scope with a decent reticle that focused down to 9-10 yards and ranged accurately to 60 yards. Finding two of those parameters is easy, but finding all four has been the Holiest of Grails.
I tend to set my variable to the highest, or almost highest, and they stay there, cuz I like to see what Im aiming at, and impact (if I follow through correctly...)
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I'm not a fan of variable power rifle scopes, changing power adds another variable to run through my little pea brain when I want to hit something
Most my scopes set at about half power.
That is why "pea brains" such as you should get a First focal Plane scope. :D ;)
-Y
Don't worry, got some.
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For that very reason (re: Shooting at the max power, like 99% of the time) I bought a 20x42 SWFA scope.
Also, I have only use an IR like, once.
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There are quite a few 10X fixed scopes, as that is the standard magnification for MilDots.... You can find a few 20X, with 1/2 MilDot reticles.... One of the reasons you won't find very many fixed power scopes with high magnification is that they can get pretty dim in poor light.... The exit pupil is the objective lense diameter divided by the magnification.... If you have a 10 x 50 scope the exit pupil is 5 mm, which is great for everything but dusk and dawn shooting.... However, go to a 20 x 50 scope, and that drops to 2.5 mm, which is about the size of the pupil of your eye on a bright, sunny day.... An exit pupil smaller than that will suffer from dimming of the image, particularly if it's a cloudy day.... You eye simply wants more light than the scope can put out....
You can see this problem with spotting scopes.... Most have a 60mm objective, and many are 20-60X.... Crank them up over 30X, and even on a sunny day, the image starts to dim.... At 60X, with a 1 mm exit pupil, they are pretty poor, with a dim image and low contrast.... In addition, their field of view gets incredibly narrow.... High magnification doesn't do you much good if you can't find the target, and when you do you can't see it very well....
Bob
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Bob,
Yeah, learned those lessons a number of years ago, a couple of them the hard way. I don't use anything over 16x with my air rifles. And the vast majority of my shooting is in good light at paper targets. I understand why you don't see much fixed power at higher magnifications. I just was curious how many folks really used the variable powers much at all. Just an old guy thinking out loud.
I used to belong to a gun club that had an underground 100 yard range made using concrete pipe. The target area was brightly lit and you could see it well even with a 24x scope I was using. But finding the target was hard even at lower magnification. Then when I cranked it up to 24x if you even twitched the scope you lost the picture. It got aggravating some times.
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I don't get why anyone with an airgun needs a 45x scope that focuses down to ten yards. What are you looking at? The grain in the target paper? Magnification that high you can pick up your heart beat. It can also induce purpose tremor and hurt accuracy. Most airguns have limited range and rainbow trajectories so I understand the use of mildot style reticles but I've shot 300+ yards with powder burners with 12 and 14 power scopes. Why people want anything more than a 12x on an airgun beats me. I regularly shoot soda cans and water bottles out to 100 yards with a springer and a straight 4x scope. If I was shooting groups I'd possibly wanna use my 4-12x40 with a finer reticle. Honestly with my low power springers I don't shoot groups past 50 yards. It's an exercise in futility. I do however a lot of 100/200 yard pb shooting and all but one of my guns don't have more than 14x. The one exception is a Varmint rifle which has 6-24, and I never run it higher than 18 because of reticle calibration and the image suffers. Good high magnification scopes start at $1000. Then again if you're plopping it on an airgun and shooting ten yards or even less than a hundred yards you not going need top tier glass. Anyway I'm done. Put as much glass on it as you like. I'd rather have a bright clear image with a wide fov than a dim unclear image and a narrow fov. But that's probably because of my propensity for practical hunting purposes.
Bob,
Yeah, learned those lessons a number of years ago, a couple of them the hard way. I don't use anything over 16x with my air rifles. And the vast majority of my shooting is in good light at paper targets. I understand why you don't see much fixed power at higher magnifications. I just was curious how many folks really used the variable powers much at all. Just an old guy thinking out loud.
I used to belong to a gun club that had an underground 100 yard range made using concrete pipe. The target area was brightly lit and you could see it well even with a 24x scope I was using. But finding the target was hard even at lower magnification. Then when I cranked it up to 24x if you even twitched the scope you lost the picture. It got aggravating some times.
Bill if all you shoot is paper then a fixed high power scope would be fine. The reason for variables is for hunting. You need the lower magnifications to get a wider fov which helps you initially acquire your target. Tunnel vision of a high magnification scope would cost you a lot of shot opportunities. I use all my airguns for shooting groups, spinners and silhouettes but my dedicated squirrel gun has a straight 4x32 mildot w/o AO because I get a bright clear picture, the mildot values are constant and I don't miss shot opportunities because I'm wasting time adjusting the power or the AO /SF.
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Ron,
Your eyes are apparently better than mine. I don't care for the really high magnifications and the factors they introduce either. But I do like something in the neighborhood of 12-16x as a top end.
Using a variable for hunting I have found that if you take advantage of the greater field of view at the lower magnification and then crank up the magnification for a better picture you often have to refind the target so the wide fov didn't really help. Even for hunting I tend to leave the magnification at a single setting.
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Ron,
Your eyes are apparently better than mine. I don't care for the really high magnifications and the factors they introduce either. But I do like something in the neighborhood of 12-16x as a top end.
Using a variable for hunting I have found that if you take advantage of the greater field of view at the lower magnification and then crank up the magnification for a better picture you often have to refind the target so the wide fov didn't really help. Even for hunting I tend to leave the magnification at a single setting.
Increase the magnification as you're looking through the scope and you won't lose your target. High magnification isn't needed in most cases. I've had several times where targets appear almost under foot and couldn't find it in time because my scope was left on high power. Now I won't walk with a scope on high power and even should something appear more distant its still easier to find on 3 or 4 power. If need be you can increase the power as you're looking through it with your trigger hand. Most often 3 or 4 power is enough to identify and shoot targets at airgun ranges which is under a hundred yards, most cases well under 50 yards. I understand using a high power, fine reticle for shooting groups but that's with in reason. I just don't understand why airgunners think they need 1000 yard scopes to shoot under 50 in most cases. My Varmint gun only has the 6-24x50 on it because I intend to take out Prarie Dog's at 500 yds. Otherwise the 3.5-14x40 that was on it was fine out past 300.
Eye sight shouldn't be a reason for magnification. You can wear glasses to correct your eye sight or you can adjust the ocular for that. There's no reason for a blurry picture. Truth is most people don't know how to properly adjust the ocular. I've seen it a thousand times before at the range. Not saying it's your problem, I'm just saying increasing the size of a blurry image is a poor substitute for a clear sharp image.
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Ron,
It is not about the blur. It is about the old cliche "aim small, miss small". All my scopes are SFP so as I increase magnification my crosshairs cover less of the target. I can focus on a finer point on the target. It helps me to keep my groups tighter more consistently.
For hunting I find it easier to look over the top of the scope to locate my target then look through the scope to aim. I prefer not to adjust the magnification at that point. I guess I am not as steady as you when trying to do that. Different strokes for different folks. I also tend to use higher magnification hunting than you. But the scopes on my hunting rifles are almost all 3x-9x.
Maybe all those airgunners just LIKE having high magnification scopes. Maybe they are shooting fleas at 50 yards. If I had the money I might be tempted to put a 30x-40x scope on my HW30. I like getting a good look at those fleas. Us olde phartes like bigger images. Tiny stuff is harder to make out even if the image is sharp.
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More power to you Bill. Just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't work you. To each their own. It's why they make vanilla and chocolate.
Have a great Thanksgiving
Ron
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Hey, Bill, I don't know about you but when I aim small, I HIT small.
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About changing the magnification: I change to the maximum magnification when I am sighting my rifles. When hunting, most of the time I am on lower magnification for a larger field of view. Sometimes, while hunting, I will dial up higher magnification to help determine if what I think is a squirrel is actually leaves or a real squirrel. One scope is 3 x 9 and the other is 4 x 12.
Works for me!
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About changing the magnification: I change to the maximum magnification when I am sighting my rifles. When hunting, most of the time I am on lower magnification for a larger field of view. Sometimes, while hunting, I will dial up higher magnification to help determine if what I think is a squirrel is actually leaves or a real squirrel. One scope is 3 x 9 and the other is 4 x 12.
Works for me!
I expect that most of us shoot variable power scopes. And probably we all make at least some use of the variability. Everybody works out their own techniques and preferences for using them. I just got to thinking that mine tend to spend a lot of time set at the highest magnification
Happy Thanksgiving everybody.
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My Grouse gun has a 4 x 32 because of close range, dim light, and the need for quick target acquisition.... It stays focused at 30 yards, and is in focus from 10-50 yards.... My Ground Squirrel and Marmot guns have a 3-12 X 44, and spend virtually all of their time at 12X.... I occasionally miss an opportunity on the close shots, and wish it was 16X when I'm beyond 70 yards or so.... I carry it focused at about 40 yards, but I use a laser rangefinder, and set the side focus to the reading if beyond 50 yards.... For target shooting (usually at 100 yds) I prefer 16X, but use whatever is on the gun I am working with, of course....
Bob
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I've always liked the lower powered scopes and really except for hard core target shooting, I've used 2-7X or 4X and some 6X scopes. On several of my 2-7X scopes I usually set them at a certain magnification, appropriate to the guns use and seldom ever change them. It usually ends up to be 5 or 6X. It's funny, when I get a variable scope, I'll check it out to make sure that there is no deviation in poi when changing magnification, and parallax changes, and then set the magnification to whatever I want and leave it alone. Of course I do change parallax settings a lot.
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It's sometimes funny how airgunners swear by using only one magnification (or fixed magnification scopes), or how they swear they absolutely cannot see the point of fixed magnification scopes.....
O wait, I have been one of those..... 🤦🏻♂️
Until I realized that much of what airgunners prefer depends on their shooting scenarios....
🔶 Example 1:
Hunting in dense woods usually means short range (low magnification) and often rushed shots (not much time for changing the magnification or dialing turrets on an SFP).
However, I might like to use that particular gun for dense woods also in different scenarios, maybe pesting on a farm with ranges from 20 to 70y — in that case I might like a variable magnification that goes up to 16x or more for the longer ranges.
Of course, such an "allround gun" that does both is not really feeding on our airgun addiction — so we prefer "dedicated guns" or "specialized guns":
• "Well, this gun I need for shooting squirrels in dark woods.
• "Now, this gun I need for shooting squirrels from my kitchen window.
• "And I need this gun to shoot starlings on my bird feeder from my kitchen window."
You get the point.... It's our way of justifying a NEED to get that next gun.
Because we really need another specialized gun to hit the chipmunks that mess with our bird feeder. 😄
🔶 Example 2:
A lot has to do with our shooting position when hunting.
▪ Some of us have grown up with the idea that real hunter shoot offhand, none of this sissy stuff of bipods, tripods, and other gun crutches.
▪ Others frantically look for any object or structure — anything, please!! — that they can lean their gun on and rarely shoot offhanded.
▪ The first group will be content with a maximum magnification of 6x or 8x at most — and some cannot understand why anyone would want any higher magnification?!? 🤷🏻♂️
▪ The second group repeats the "aim small, miss small" slogan and requires at least twice the max. magnification than the first group. Some of them cannot fathom how anybody would want a fixed or low magnification scope?!? 🤷🏻♂️
Yes, I know, I was a card carrying member of one of those groups....
🔶 Example 3
• For target shooting or even unrushed hunting a small field of view (FoV) — large magnification — is no problem.
• For close range, rushed hunting shots a wide FoV is essential for quick target acquisition — requiring a low magnifiation (or a prismatic scope).
In some of my shooting scenarios I creep around a building corner, knowing that when I do I will face a skittish pigeon anywhere between 10 and 20y:
And for that I need a wide FoV for quick target acquisition (30ft @100y).
And I don't want a large magnification (6x or less) to keep the scope jitters down as my adrenaline is pumping.... 😄
But when I shoot the pigeon on the barn roof on the other side of the property faaaar away, resting the gun on a solid object, I'd want 16x or 24x....
And for those who want an "allround gun" to do both with — well, I'll need a large magnification range, like 6-fold as in a 3-18x, or 4-24x.
🔶 Example 4
• I often read the argument: "I don't need a large magnification to hit the bull's eye." Good.
• BUT I on the other hand need a large magnification to see if I hit the bull's eye....!! 😄 That's a whole different magnification story....
And lately I have taken a liking to scopecamming, and I like to see my hits slow and large — so my scope criteria have shifted recently once again.....
Scope choices are very personal. Because our shooting scenarios are so varied and personal. One of the most frequent questions in another optics forum is "What scope should I get for rifle X?" Rarely if ever do they describe the shooting scenarios they want to use the scope for....
Matthias
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🔶 Example 1:
Hunting in dense woods usually means short range (low magnification) and often rushed shots (not much time for changing the magnification or dialing turrets on an SFP).
However, I might like to use that particular gun for dense woods also in different scenarios, maybe pesting on a farm with ranges from 20 to 70y — in that case I might like a variable magnification that goes up to 16x or more for the longer ranges.
This kind of thing is why I'm starting to lean back towards a variable scope.
Let me tell you what just happened to me:
I decided to try the Immersive Optics prismatic (fixed) 14 x 50. I use only one rifle, so I need to shoot from TEN yards to 70 with the same scope. (rarely more)
I really like the idea of at least 12X for longer distances, picking squirrels out of the trees or grouse out of the brush, and these scopes have incredibly wide FOV, so no problems there at short distance. Plus they "parallax focus" down to six meters.
I knew that the DOF at close distance might be very thin (and man, is it ever) but I at least expected to be able to get a crisp focus.
I was wrong.
At ten yards, this scope simply does not focus enough to stop my brain from hurting. Even at 20 yards, it's extremely uncomfortable to use. (It's razor crisp at 50 yards.) Granted, there may be something wrong with that particular scope & I'll know soon as I sent it back, but assuming there's nothing wrong, then you just cant use a fixed scope fo that kind of power at 20 yards or less.
Oh, and at 10 yards, the "useable DOF" was probably about 2-3 inches. I'm not kidding.
Maybe a fixed 6X or even 10X might work for this type of application, I don't know, but that 14X was a non-starter. So now I'm reconsidering variable scopes. I'd love to find a short eye-relief variable, for a better FOV, but there doesn't seem to be any.
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Allan,
I really appreciate you sharing your experience with the prismatic scope. The concept is aweseome: High magnification with an extremely wide FoV! The best of both worlds, so it seems! 👍🏼
BUT, the very shallow depth of field (DoF), or how I call it, "sharpness and parallax range (SPR)" is something rarely talked about — but for rushed hunting shots very important — the closer the quarry, the more important!
THANK YOU for preventing me going down that lane — it would not suit my needs. 😊
🔶 For your search for the illusive scope with a very wide FoV... — I think I shared my Wide FoV Scope Specs Table with you already. If not, cf. attachment below.
🔷
64 scopes and their specs,
with at least 9x top end magnification,
with a field of view of at least 30ft (@ 100y),
with 10y side parallax,
with exposed turrets,
with holdoff reticle,
mostly $200–$500, some higher.
🔷 Notable scopes with very wide FoV yet high magnifications are:
▪ MTC Viper Connect 3-12x24 SFP | FoV = 61ft (3x) to 17ft (12x) | eye relief 1.2"
▪ Same as above, but 3-12x32 ▪ Hawke Airmax Touch 30 (No. 13260) | 3-12x32 | FoV = 64ft (3x) to 18ft (12x) | eye relief 1.2"
▪ Hawke Airmax 30 SF Compact (No. 13200) | 3-12x40 | FoV = 44ft (3x) to 11ft (12x)
▪ Swampfox (US) Warhawk | 2-10x44 | FoV = 63ft (2x) to 12x (10x)
▪ Swampfox Kentucky Long | 2-12x44 | FoV = 54ft (2x) to 9ft (12x)
▪ Athlon Helos BTR Gen. 2 (MIL, not MOA which is BDC) | 2-12x42 | FoV = 56ft (2x) to 10ft (12x)
Matthias 😊
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More data regarding this important issue of crispness at close distance:
Check out this excellent YOO-toob review of the Immersive Optics (fixed) 10x40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHS1qdcOqc4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHS1qdcOqc4)
At about the 3:30 point in the video, he comments on this scope’s usable range.
He says the 10x40 gets blurry @ closer than about 12 yards, and also at farther than about 45 yards !
He prefers the 10x30, for its extra DOF.
So there you go. The 14x50 I tired was likley NOT defective, you simply can't get such a deep usable range of distance from any high-ish magnification fixed-mag scope. The fact that these can "parallax focus" down to 7 meters is kind of misleading, since they aren't actually usable at that range.
I might try the 10x30, but if I can find a short-relief / wide FOV variable scope, I'm going to be a lot happier.
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Thanks for posting Allan. I didn't know that DOF was an issue with these style scopes until reading some of your post. The video did an excellent job of showing it.
Glad I lived in England for 4 years as a teenager. I caught most of what he was saying. ;D
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What I find really odd is that these scopes get blurry at FAR distances as well.
Is this a thing with all fixed scopes at 10x or more, or does it have to do with the prismatic design?
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What I find really odd is that these scopes get blurry at FAR distances as well.
Is this a thing with all fixed scopes at 10x or more, or does it have to do with the prismatic design?
Seemed very odd to me also. I don't know if it's in the prismatic design or that in combination with the parallax. On my AEA HP Carbine 15-50 yds is ideal, but it would definitely give me a migraine being out of focus at other distances. :o
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I have always wondered why variables are so popular. My shooting pal, puts nothing but high power scopes on every gun he owns, airgun, .22, or high power. He prefers 4-16 and 6-24 mostly, even on an airgun. He even has 36X on .22 sporters. I dunno, not my cup of tea. I prefer 4X and 2-7X for airguns, as being optimal. Once in a while I'll go with a 3-9X, but usually set them at a certain power and leave them there. There's the occasion where I'll crank them all the way up, but it's usually just playing around. I wish there was a good 5X, in the $250 range with AO and that'd be my favorite scope. I usually set my 2-7s and 5 or 6X and shoot away. For one thing I learn the mil dot usage for that power and don't want to confuse it more..