GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => American/U.S. Air Gun Gates => Topic started by: WilsonLR on July 28, 2020, 09:41:42 AM
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A little frustrated at the airgun market. Seems like the days of buying a quality wooden stock gun to hand down to the next generation is a thing of the past. Seems like now it's a throw it away and buy new every 5 years thing. Sure wish I'd gotten into it a long time ago. Anyway, I'm looking at getting a Benjamin 392 ... is there a multishot magazine out there like someone made for the Discovery?
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Without violating the no politics. We created this mess 20 years ago when we gave corporations tax breaks to move over seas. Now no one is happy with how it worked out.
If you want quality American made you'll have to go vintage and no the vintage 892's don't have a magazine. You could go vintage German or English or high end like an Airforce fun. Sorry no wood furniture
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I agree. For quality made in USA in a new gun, pretty much it is AirForce PCP guns or something built in a high end/custom shop of some sort. Springers we have the SIG ASP20 and that is pretty much it. “Built in America” Benjamin’s are mostly foreign parts from China assembled in USA and supposedly held to higher QA/QC standards.
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Not all that home in American made airguns but aren't raw's made in America?
If you want something well made and made in the west you're going to pay prices that reflect the extra quality and the higher cost of materials, logistics, labour and the rest. And this counts for pretty much anything.
If you look further than American made I would recommend cometa Air rifles from Spain.
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There are places other than China...
Weihrauch (German) is an heirloom quality, wood and steel gun.
Some Diana's as well, but not all.
BSA from Great Britan, and the Spanish Cometa mentioned above...
But if you are looking for a Multi-Pump... you are very limited.
Get a Sheridan 'Streak, or an early Benjamin... good ones are still out there at fair prices if you are patient.
A soldered valve (early) 392P is a joy to shoot and still pretty much under the radar as collectible to most sellers... ;)
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Thanks. Yes, the free world would be good. The Walther Lever Action would be perfect if it weren't hamstrung at 6FPEThe Umarex 850M2 is interesting and made in England but plastic stock. Are Beeman made in Europe? There's a .22 QB78 single shot Co2 that gets 9FPE.
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As I understand it beeman is an importer of both European and Asian airguns, and to make the subject even more convoluted, Diana now rebrands Chinese guns and sells them as their budget line. Now those guns aren't bad but they are Chinese.
I'm pretty sure the beeman qb78 is the same qb78 sold by other importers and is made in China. So what kind of gun do you want and what's you're price range?
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A QB78 is a Chinese clone of a Crosman 160 3rd variant... no matter where you buy it from.
The olden Days of "Doc Beeman" are long gone.
Check SAG (Shanghai Air Guns) or SPA... (Snow Peak Airguns).
You will see where Beeman and Diana get their "entry level" guns. (China)
The higher end stuff for both comes from Germany.
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I think the Weirauch HW30 is the modern replacement at similar power and weight to an old Benji 392. It's a German break barrel and not a pumper, but you won't regret it. The HW50 has a bit more power for small game hunting.
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So what kind of gun do you want and what's you're price range?
Lots of good tips and information in this thread. Thanks all.
To your point @Oane, I've shifted those requirements around and adjusted my expectations as I've learned what's in the market and how things are. Ideally it would have been a multi-pump multi-shot with a wooden stock and open sites. Seneca makes a Dragonfly but it's dead. Replacement Butterfly is TBD. Given all that's happened the last few months, I'm going to compromise on requirements look for something in the above recommendations.
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For quality made in USA best way to go without buying high end or custom, probably a vintage Sheridan, Benjamin, or Crosman and either have it refurbished by a pro or diy.
Other than that, save and buy Diana, HW, AA, or Cometa/ AirForce International. Great deals on model 94 from AirForce website. Imports from the free world. Good guns
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Thanks Bryan. Searching for vintage Sheridan, Benjamin or Crosman is exactly what I'm doing. Otherwise freeworld.
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American Air Arms makes beautiful guns made here in the U.S. however you're going to pay through the nose for one of those but they do scream quality and workmanship big time.
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EPILOG: Just when I was settling in on a comprimise Discovery plus chinese HPA pump, my searching led to discovering the whole modding scene; the 22xx scene in particular where what may be a marginally adequate 2260 in .22 could be modded easily to get to 12 FPE. When I found the GRAVmag 9 shot magazine, it cinched the deal. A 2260MB was less than half the cost of a Discovery plus pump and that money would pay for the accessories.
GRAVmag 9s:
https://www.airgun-parts-shop.co.uk/collections/all-crosman-products/products/gravmag-9s-crosman-edition-magazine-for-crosman-2240-2250-steel-breech-and-benjamin-discovery (https://www.airgun-parts-shop.co.uk/collections/all-crosman-products/products/gravmag-9s-crosman-edition-magazine-for-crosman-2240-2250-steel-breech-and-benjamin-discovery)
So I picked up a new Sheridan 2260MB. As an aside, it esthetically matches my family heirloom Remington .22 powder burners from the mid 1900's. I know I know, the Sheridan is only assembled in US of imported parts but looking at the true Made in US stuff was driving me mad as I just could not stomach the financials. It also laid waste to my keyboard from all the drooling. Anyway, Co2 has advantages over pumping for us old farts and there is, at least, not Chinese pump and maintenance involved. I loved looking at the vintage pumpers. Thanks for all the help.
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Thanks for the conclusion. Very often individuals ask for advice and never tell us what they decide.
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Yes, great you gave the outcome of your search...
CONGRATS on your educated decision.
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I tried to #d print a grave mag like that I found on thingiverse that one you bought looks much nicer than the one on TV.
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I tried to #d print a grave mag like that I found on thingiverse that one you bought looks much nicer than the one on TV.
Like so many things these days, those multishot magazines were out of stock. On a lark, I revisited to sign up for notification of availability and they were just yesterday available for purchase so I ordered one. Unfortunately, the pellet's I had ordered weren't on the approved list so .... another few bucks from that money saved by not getting a Discovery ....
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Op, I'm with you on this. My next rifle will be a Airforce. Not sure yet if it will be a texan or a condor. Don't really know that much about them yet. Except for my Diana m48 all of my rifles are either chicom or S Korean.
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As you found out, finding a completely made in the US , new air rifle , is not easy. If you ever decide that you want a pumper , don't forget that with pumpers, you do not need to pump those 8 times for every shot. TOO MUCH WORK. 3 shots for plinking, 5 shots for most small game, maximum pumps for longer range or larger game.
Good luck with your new rifle !!
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As you found out, finding a completely made in the US , new air rifle , is not easy. If you ever decide that you want a pumper , don't forget that with pumpers, you do not need to pump those 8 times for every shot. TOO MUCH WORK. 3 shots for plinking, 5 shots for most small game, maximum pumps for longer range or larger game.
Good luck with your new rifle !!
Ive been saying this since I was a kid and my friend brought by his " better " B3-1 Chinese springer his dad bought him for $30 at the local flea market.
With 4 pumps I could get hits just as fast as he could , I was a better shot but still he was surprised because he was telling me how slow my gun was and that I needed something faster like his.
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YEP. That is the secret to owning one.You just have to love their adjustable power ! I do test all my Sheridans every so often with 8 pumps, which is the maximum. I always provide the potential buyer with the rifles maximum FPS.
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you'd think all these companies hurt by lack of imports would start bringing back manufacturing to the US, but they found out US customers will wait for the cheap stuff to be restocked and just complain about it
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bringing back manufacturing to the US
HA HA HA... That's a good one!
I have been in manufacturing for 25 years at 5 different plants. The typical American factory worker wants the most pay for the least amount of labor.
Forget pride in their work. No concern for quality... that is Q.C.'s job.
We did this to ourselves.
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bringing back manufacturing to the US
HA HA HA... That's a good one!
I have been in manufacturing for 25 years at 5 different plants. The typical American factory worker wants the most pay for the least amount of labor.
Forget pride in their work. No concern for quality... that is Q.C.'s job.
We did this to ourselves.
I can tell you it wasn't always like this.
but never mind.
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missing out on the good ol QBs, i also dont like buying chinese stuff but sadly nothing in america is even being made like it anymore that i know of....
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I can tell you it wasn't always like this.
but never mind.
Oh yes, I remember too...
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I can tell you it wasn't always like this.
but never mind.
Oh yes, I remember too...
I worked manufacturing, (never white collar, or salary), but always one of the grunts, my whole life.
4 different plants.
When I retired I was making $16 an hour.
I was class A Set up and Operate on many machines.
And, expected to train the fools they stuck me with.
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Norica airguns are also an option. They are on par with Cometa, but I would advise only those based on their Marvic as it has a very nice adjustable trigger. That would include the Storm and Black Eagle. The cheaper models have direct sear. Look for the Gamo-like safety lever in front of the trigger.
Someone mentioned BSA. They were bought by Gamo in the early 2000's.
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Maybe take a look at Daisy.
"Their general offices and museum are still located in Rogers, Arkansas, but their assembly operations have been moved to Neosho, Missouri."
I just got a Daisy M853 from the Civilian Makrmenship Program and it's tack driver. Not exactly like my Taipan VL but I ENJOY shooting it.
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bringing back manufacturing to the US
HA HA HA... That's a good one!
I have been in manufacturing for 25 years at 5 different plants. The typical American factory worker wants the most pay for the least amount of labor.
Forget pride in their work. No concern for quality... that is Q.C.'s job.
We did this to ourselves.
It's a shared responsibility for that disaster because neither, typically, management or employees work as a team. No teamwork or will to beat the competition. That is unpatriotic.
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We have several of the tang safety walnut stocked Benjamin 397Ps. Was able to get them at some very nice prices, what with everyone going a little nutty on the Racine Sheridans. We have those, too, but two of our 397Ps actually outshoot them. We only use 4 pumps, by the way.
Don't overlook the E.Bloomfield 397Ps, by the way. One of ours is actually an E. Bloomfield transition 397P, which you may be able to get even cheaper than the more in demand earlier Racine versions. It's actually the most accurate of all our pumpers.
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Whoa whoa whoa .... yes boycott China, but befriend our FRIEND that also hates our common enemy - Taiwan. Taiwan has made wonderfully engineered and amazing quality Air Guns and the majority MAKE THEM in their factories IN Taiwan. All of Crosman's M4 clones or Replicas (literally clones of our US Military M4 style rifles) are made for Crosman in Taiwan by KWC (their international brand), a very well respected designer and manufacturer (in Taiwan at their own factories). In Taiwan they are known as Jianye Toy Industry Co., Ltd in Tianan City.
Another is JIA DYI Enterprise Co., Ltd is a premier maker of Airsoft and Paintball guns and Pellet guns, I have two of their high-end rifles for paintball competition. Awesome hardware, better than German.
There are also others there if you search, I have a "sidelever" single shot .22 cal pellet rifle from the 1970's that was made in Taiwan and it still has the original gaskets and still get 600fps, accurate as *(&^.
If you aren't familiar with Crosman's KWC made M4 replica's, this is the Panther Arms "DPMS SBR" replica BB rifle full-blowback Semi/Full auto. Crosman has I think 4 other models, most can interchange actual M4 (gunpowder) parts, like grips, stocks etc. Even tears down like a real DPMS M4 variant. Also the new KWC made Crosman "R1" which is a "base model M4" that you accessorize.
Japan as have numerous "Air Gun" manufacturers, do some searching for what you need.
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I'd prefer Taiwan makes what it buys, and Americans make what we buy, better for both countries, and make no mistake, Taiwan is still China and what you put in their pocket ultimately benefits our enemy.
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I can tell you it wasn't always like this.
but never mind.
Oh yes, I remember too...
I worked manufacturing, (never white collar, or salary), but always one of the grunts, my whole life.
4 different plants.
When I retired I was making $16 an hour.
I was class A Set up and Operate on many machines.
And, expected to train the fools they stuck me with.
That's interesting, I can find quite a few examples of just the opposite, especially recently with employers trying to exploit people getting cut off from unemployment while the business owners have bank accounts fat with COVID relief money.
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I'd prefer Taiwan makes what it buys, and Americans make what we buy, better for both countries, and make no mistake, Taiwan is still China and what you put in their pocket ultimately benefits our enemy.
You're a racist crackpot and don't know what the H*** what you are talking about.
Taiwan has never been "part of China", the indigenous peoples of Taiwan came up from Micronesia by way of the Phillipines, then some Chinese started immigrating there WHILE Formosa (Portugues name) was a colony of Portugal. Then it was a colony of Japan for 75 years when the US liberated it from Japan in 1945 and made it an independent nation. China has never had a valid claim on Formosa / Taiwan, just that idiot Chang Kai Shek invaded it and erroneously claimed he was China in exile. The indigenous Taiwanese people were oppressed by Chang Kai Shek and actually preferred Japan as Japan improved the inland infrastructure, built schools, cities, irrigation and roads. Taiwan is China's enemy and NO money from Taiwan goes to China as Taiwan has been closing factories in China and moving back to Taiwan.
My father was in the USAAC during WWII as a fighter pilot, first in Burma then in China to fight the Japanese, he was still in the USAF when the war broke out between Taiwan and China in 1951 and he trained Taiwanese pilots in the US (Texas) then in Taiwan itself at a USAF Base in Tainan to fly P-38's, P-51's and F-86 Sabre Jets the US GAVE to Taiwan along with other weapons and munitions. My wifes father was a Taiwanese AF bomber flying WWII B-24's and B-25's the US gave to Taiwan, he trained in Texas. Does THAT sound like Taiwan is part of China? Idiot.
My wife was born in Taiwan, a US citizen for 32 years and we go to visit it often to see her family. Taiwan is more like the US than California is these days.
Ps - I am USAF Retired, Capt. 20th Special Operation Sqn, 27th Spl Ops Wing, Vietnam 1970 - 1972, 12 years in the USAF.
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You sound like a disturbed individual and I'll leave it at that rather than argue with someone who pulls the race card like a karen
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Meanwhile, back to the subject...
I know there is controversy due to the issues with company management and customer support, but the JSAR Raptor is a fine US made gun, mine are performing flawlessly.
Having said that, I did also say I would never buy a Chinese gun, but then ended up buying an AEA HP SS ;)
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Knock it off with the personal attacks. Everyone has and is entitled to have an opinion. Some are best kept to ourselves.
This forum is not social media. It is a privately owned forum with a set of rules to which each and everyone of us agreed to upon joining.
Fair warning.
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^ thank you ^
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I have airguns from just about everywhere. I buy what I want, when I want it. My choice, my money.
Please keep in mind it is an airgun forum not a government forum. Attacking anyone will offend someone. If you have a problem with a gun made in any country, don't blame the people, just tell us the facts of the gun issue, that way we know more about the issue, and maybe find a way to fix it, or we just stay clear of that model gun. We are all from differant backgrounds, differant skin colors, and differant countries, please play nice and keep this fun!
I was so impressed with the diversity of this site, that I knew this was the right forum for me.
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Very wise statement there John.
Thanks for that!
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Yep, It's hard to stay within my personal limit if around $300 and not buy Chinese. For me, it's a hobby not a retirement plan.
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I have a couple Chinese guns that put a smile on my face you can't slap off. ;D
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I have a couple Chinese guns that put a smile on my face you can't slap off. ;D
Has that been confirmed? I'm available if you want me to try.... ;D
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ANYTIME Big Boy... you need to come back home someday.
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Nevermind.... I'm too close to retirement to be trading slaps in the head.
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So I guess a Rochambeau is out of the question?
;)
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Oh, great now what have I started!
Now you boy's fight nice you hear!
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I'm still looking for a replacment Chinese rifle.
Like an idiot I sold my folding stock side lever.
anyone who might want to part with one send me a message.
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All people that ride motorcycles keep all the nuts, bolts and screws on their bikes tight but we all have a few loose screws in the brainpan. ::) ;D ;D We also play hard but nice.
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That is why we ride motorcycles!
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That is why we ride motorcycles!
Zactly ;D ;D
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AGREED!
All in jest...and I am sure Bill feels the same.
If and when we ever actually meet the first thing will be a Bear Hug... then pat the pups.
Then the slap and tickles can begin. ;)
Speaking of Murder Cycles... more "Long bike" parts showed up from the previous owners shop clean up.
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In my entire time riding, I have only ridden 4 bikes that were not intended for even fairly experienced riders. The first was a KZ750 2 stroke then a KZ900 when they first came out both belonged to a very crazy very good friend. Next was a Yamaha XJ1100 and the last was a Honda Hurricane 1000 that had every go-fast part installed the owner worked as a mechanic for Honda at the time. With the Honda, it didn't matter what gear you were in it wanted to point the front wheel at the north star as long as you were in the powerband.
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Really enjoy shooting my "CHINESE" QB78 .177 when I get too. 8)
This one doesn't say Beeman anyway.
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In my entire time riding, I have only ridden 4 bikes that were not intended for even fairly experienced riders. The first was a KZ750 2 stroke then a KZ900 when they first came out both belonged to a very crazy very good friend. Next was a Yamaha XJ1100 and the last was a Honda Hurricane 1000 that had every go-fast part installed the owner worked as a mechanic for Honda at the time. With the Honda, it didn't matter what gear you were in it wanted to point the front wheel at the north star as long as you were in the powerband.
I don't even remeber all of the bikes I have had. Just about every brand out there.
The bike I used on the Iron Butt Saddle Soar 1000 was a Suzuki DR650 single cylinder thumper.
If I remeber it was 1068 miles in 20 hours and 9 minutes.
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I have only two criteria accurate for me and pretty to look at OK so there are more but if the looks don't appeal it will never happen. I'm not into ugly and I love consistent accuracy. Beyond that I could care less about who makes it as long as there is quality in the build
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Whoa whoa whoa .... yes boycott China, but befriend our FRIEND that also hates our common enemy - Taiwan. Taiwan has made wonderfully engineered and amazing quality Air Guns and the majority MAKE THEM in their factories IN Taiwan. All of Crosman's M4 clones or Replicas (literally clones of our US Military M4 style rifles) are made for Crosman in Taiwan by KWC (their international brand), a very well respected designer and manufacturer (in Taiwan at their own factories). In Taiwan they are known as Jianye Toy Industry Co., Ltd in Tianan City.
Another is JIA DYI Enterprise Co., Ltd is a premier maker of Airsoft and Paintball guns and Pellet guns, I have two of their high-end rifles for paintball competition. Awesome hardware, better than German.
...
Japan as have numerous "Air Gun" manufacturers, do some searching for what you need.
Thanks for the well thought out post. Will keep in mind for future airguns.
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Without violating the no politics. We created this mess 20 years ago when we gave corporations tax breaks to move over seas. Now no one is happy with how it worked out.
If you want quality American made you'll have to go vintage and no the vintage 892's don't have a magazine. You could go vintage German or English or high end like an Airforce fun. Sorry no wood furniture
Agree 100%. I just had a new benji Maximus arrive. I also have a Beeman chief 2. They are about the same price point. One feels and looks like a little kids toy that would readily be stocked at Wally World. The other is actually pretty solid for 180 bucks, more than you would expect. We all know which is which.
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The last gun that I got is an AEA HP 25 cal semi auto and I love it. It's made almost totally from 7075 aluminum using cnc machining on most all the parts that make up the entire receiver and the bottle on it is also 7075 aluminum. The fit and finish is extremely nice, I did a chrony test with it so far but I plan on getting up in the attic soon and sight it in at a good distance. I may even put a target out about 15 yards in my back yard from my porch to see what I can do from my back porch because it's been constant rain since I got the gun. I can rattle off 10 shots as fast as I can pull the trigger without a hitch. The gun has a baffled shroud which honestly makes the gun very back yard friendly at supposedly 81db which in my opinion is excellent, especially being I get 30 good close to 50fpe shots before I need to fill it back up after the pressure goes from 3100psi down to 2200psi.
(https://i.imgur.com/0LCyCVI.jpg)
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I have a couple Chinese guns that put a smile on my face you can't slap off. ;D
Where did you get that snow camo dip done? That is sweet. Can that be done to a plastic black stock?
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Well; there's English, Swedish, and Turkish.
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Regarding the original question, BSA, Daystate, FX.
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I have a couple Chinese guns that put a smile on my face you can't slap off. ;D
Where did you get that snow camo dip done? That is sweet. Can that be done to a plastic black stock?
That ain't no dip.... that's hand painted by our old buddy.. Shadow.
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I have a couple Chinese guns that put a smile on my face you can't slap off. ;D
Where did you get that snow camo dip done? That is sweet. Can that be done to a plastic black stock?
That ain't no dip.... that's hand painted by our old buddy.. Shadow.
Yep, Brother Shadow did the custom air brush job.
AND it WAS a black plastic stock originally (still is underneath).
:D