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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Archery => Topic started by: Ironman482 on January 31, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
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I've been thinking bout useing my shin sun dragon slayer with air bolts, the store bought airrows are ridiculously over priced, I've been making my own arrows fpr years easy-peasy . Any one know of a source for the end pieces and what dia. and stiffness would be appropriate, I think the DS would be perfect for this purpose, I just can't see paying 100.00 for 3 arrows
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I’m with you on this one. The only reason I have not tried them yet is the price. From what I understand is unless you fork out more money for a special target they are a one shot per arrow item. So I figure at-lest three to zero in. One shot per kill is ok for me but not while learning how they shoot.
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I've been thinking bout useing my shin sun dragon slayer with air bolts, the store bought airrows are ridiculously over priced, I've been making my own arrows fpr years easy-peasy . Any one know of a source for the end pieces and what dia. and stiffness would be appropriate, I think the DS would be perfect for this purpose, I just can't see paying 100.00 for 3 arrows
100 Bucks for 6 Air bolts
Yes the Dragon Slayer would be perfect, I used the Dragon Claw .50 only at half power and it was more then plenty
I much prefer dual purpose guns that can shoot both arrows and lead then the purely dedicated arrow shooters
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AirBolt nocks are $9.99 MAP for 6.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-50-cal-air-bolt-nock-set-6ct?a=7803 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-50-cal-air-bolt-nock-set-6ct?a=7803)
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Yeah, that's why you need to make a good backstop, so you don't lose them :) :) :)
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I have not used an airbow, but I know enough about carbon fibre arrows because I used to use them for booms on R/C yachts, amongst other things.... Most CF arrows have virtually all of the fibres running lengthwise, along the shaft.... This makes them stiff in bend for their weight, which is great for archery.... Airbows, however, can place an added stress on the arrow which is NOT found in archery.... In some airbows, they have air pressure inside them, so that as the arrow is sliding along the barrel it is a pressure vessel.... ie it contains air under pressure....
Pressure vessels require "hoop strength" so that they do not explode.... This requires fibres running around the shaft, not just along the length of it.... The CF arrows I used only have a very light fiberglass "scrim" to provide enough hoop strength to hold the lengthwise fibres together.... They are NOT designed to withstand air pressure inside them, and they crush very easily as well.... This makes them completely different from an aluminum arrow, or a carbon fibre arrow with an aluminum liner, which can withstand some internal (or external) pressure....
When we occasionally broke a boom made from a CF arrow shaft, it shattered, leaving long, razor-sharp splinters.... If you have ever seen a damaged CF arrow shatter when shot from a bow, or crossbow, it is horrifying, as they can impale the shooter as they disintegrate.... Just imagine if that happens with your airbow….
I offer this not to promote doom and gloom, but to advise you that if you are not using arrows or bolts designed for airbow use, please be VERY careful.... In addition to never firing one that may have been damaged (as all the manufacturers warn), I would recommend that you never use a carbon fibre shaft that is not designed with enough hoop strength to prevent it exploding when fired by air pressure inside it.... Airbow bolts may be more expensive for a very good reason.... ::)
Better safe than sorry.... :o
Bob
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Bob, would this apply to air bolts being fired from a DS where the knock takes all the pressure? Thinking of making some disposable practice bolts to find poi by using air Venturi knocks on regular 22” carbon fiber arrows. Then using air Venturi bolts for the real thing.
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Bob, would this apply to air bolts being fired from a DS where the knock takes all the pressure? Thinking of making some disposable practice bolts to find poi by using air Venturi knocks on regular 22” carbon fiber arrows. Then using air Venturi bolts for the real thing.
if you make a proper backstop you don't need disposable bolts,....make a good backstop and don't shoot groups and you'll be just fine, not gonna break arrows
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I have used a crossbow target for my backstop with the slayer, it works just fine. As Manny said, above don't shoot for groups. That could be expensive and throwing away arrows.
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Randy, I see you have a 25 mini-rod arrow gun. What are you shooting out it it?
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If the arrow fits "inside" the barrel, and is pushed only from the rear, with no air pressure inside it, this would not apply.... I am talking about airbows where the arrow fits "over" a small tubular barrel, and slides off like shooting a wrapper off a straw at McDonalds (eg. FX Dreamline).... With that design, there is air pressure inside the arrow/bolt.... so they must be designed for it....
You must be VERY careful of reusing CF arrows that have hit something solid and may be damaged.... They can shatter on firing, from a bow, crossbow, or airbow…. The resulting CF shards are NASTY, and may stray far off the intended path.... I have seen photos of a bow hand impaled by them.... :o
Bob
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Yep, that's why I never went the Carbon arrows way in my archery,
aluminum and wood for me :) :)
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Been waiting for Pyramyd Air to get .357 air bolts for close to a year. Emailed PA recently and they say “soon”. Whatever that means. ???
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Randy, I see you have a 25 mini-rod arrow gun. What are you shooting out it it?
I picked up the 880 barrel and shooting 2219 crossbow bolts made from 7075-T6 heat treated alu. Extremely hard and stiff.
444grs at 275fps = 74.5 fpe at the muzzle.
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Think those would work with a Sumatra 25?
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I'm pretty sure they're too big in diameter for the Sumatra.
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James,
The prod arrow gun uses an 880 barrel and the arrow slides over the barrel. To make it work in a Sumatra you would have to get a second barrel, cut it down to length or about 5" long, drill to .300ID and glue in either an 880 barrel or an XX75 1916 arrow shaft. replace the original barrel with the Arrow Barrel and wallah there you have it.
For in the barrel - air bolts, Air Venturi makes them in .35, .45 & .50 cal. AV also advertises a .25 cal air bolt but it hasn't hit the market. Bummer right
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I'm gonna go ahead and order the .50 cal air bolts from pyramid,I was wrong on 3 for 100 its 6 for 100 still hiway robbery but it is what it is ,if I can get same poi with a round ball or slug that would be just the cats meow, I have alot of reg archery broadheads will they work with the airbolts or should I use crossbow broadheads,seems to me they should be the same threads on the inserts but I've never had a crossbow bolt in my hands so can't compare
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I'm gonna go ahead and order the .50 cal air bolts from pyramid,I was wrong on 3 for 100 its 6 for 100 still hiway robbery but it is what it is ,if I can get same poi with a round ball or slug that would be just the cats meow, I have alot of reg archery broadheads will they work with the airbolts or should I use crossbow broadheads,seems to me they should be the same threads on the inserts but I've never had a crossbow bolt in my hands so can't compare
Yes your standard archery broadhead will screw right in the AirBolts,
I use Snuffers to maintain good arrow flight at those speeds,....and because they are absolutely devastating on game.
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Decided to measure the barrel on the DS 20 inches a no go for the 22 inch AV air bolts ,gonna order the nocks and try to make my own inserts or just a collar with a taper and make my own ,the AV uses a 300 modulas shaft so I have a idea of the shaft to start with. I forgot how light and short the DS is ,it'll be a great thick woods and brush gun
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Ronald, I called pyramid air about the difference in length of the DC barrel and the air bolts. They told me not to worry about it and that they shoot great out of the DC. Maybe Manny can give us some hands on advice. I went ahead and ordered some so I hope Pyramyds answer is right if not hope they are easy to cut down.
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Decided to measure the barrel on the DS 20 inches a no go for the 22 inch AV air bolts ,gonna order the nocks and try to make my own inserts or just a collar with a taper and make my own ,the AV uses a 300 modulas shaft so I have a idea of the shaft to start with. I forgot how light and short the DS is ,it'll be a great thick woods and brush gun
All you have to do is cut the AirBolts to length like I did for my 2 REX.
You will need the front part of the AirBolts to make them sit straight on the crown,.....If you make your own you'll miss that key part and won't get the accuracy you get with the AirBolts
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Manny, I am assuming the knocks are easy to remove and there is where I would take the extra off or do I need to buy extra knocks. Then cut off the knock end and glue on a new knock.
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Manny, I am assuming the knocks are easy to remove and there is where I would take the extra off or do I need to buy extra knocks. Then cut off the knock end and glue on a new knock.
Nope, you take the extra off from the front,
the rear is set up with the fletching so you don't touch it.
The front Aluminum inserts come off easily if you warm them up a bit.
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Manny, I am assuming the knocks are easy to remove and there is where I would take the extra off or do I need to buy extra knocks. Then cut off the knock end and glue on a new knock.
Nope, you take the extra off from the front,
the rear is set up with the fletching so you don't touch it.
The front Aluminum inserts come off easily if you warm ththanks Manny ,thats what I needed to know ,I messaged AV to see if I could buy components, haven't heard back from them yetbut if the answer is no, I 'll go ahead and order the 50 cal from pyramid and shorten them,good to know the insert will come off with heat ,I was thinking they were epoxied on like I do on my home made arrows
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Ronald, I called pyramid air about the difference in length of the DC barrel and the air bolts. They told me not to worry about it and that they shoot great out of the DC. Maybe Manny can give us some hands on advice. I went ahead and ordered some so I hope Pyramyds answer is right if not hope they are easy to cut down.
They made a mistake,...they though you where talking about the Dragon Claw, those newbies at Pyramyd never seen a Dragon Slayer, and they never tested the Bolts on a Dragon Slayer.
The Slayer has a shorter barrel then the Claw so you will need to cut them bolts
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Manny, I am assuming the knocks are easy to remove and there is where I would take the extra off or do I need to buy extra knocks. Then cut off the knock end and glue on a new knock.
Nope, you take the extra off from the front,
the rear is set up with the fletching so you don't touch it.
The front Aluminum inserts come off easily if you warm ththanks Manny ,thats what I needed to know ,I messaged AV to see if I could buy components, haven't heard back from them yetbut if the answer is no, I 'll go ahead and order the 50 cal from pyramid and shorten them,good to know the insert will come off with heat ,I was thinking they were epoxied on like I do on my home made arrows
What gun you have that you think you need to shorten them ?
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I’ve got an early Dragon Slayer with the hard plastic removable muzzle brake. I think I typed DC earlier instead DS. When I talked to a tec at PA I stated clearly what model gun I was talking about and the barrel (metal part) was shorter that the listed air bolt length. Listed barrel length is 20.6.
Now that brings another question to mind. The 23 inch bolt length might work if I leave the muzzle brake. It just slides over the end of the barrel and attaches with set screws. PA says barrel length should be 22” or longer.
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If the opening at the end of the break is small enough that the aluminum inserts sit on it It's good but I still think it's to short for the bolts
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Your probably right. When the bolts get here will check it out and maybe test one. Have a cross bow target coming at about the same time to use for testing. Then I will know wether to cut them down or not. Had will Piatt tune my DC and getting over 200 FPE for 4 shots so I hope it has enough power to shoot the bolts.
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Your probably right. When the bolts get here will check it out and maybe test one. Have a cross bow target coming at about the same time to use for testing. Then I will know wether to cut them down or not. Had will Piatt tune my DC and getting over 200 FPE for 4 shots so I hope it has enough power to shoot the bolts.
More then enough, ....when I had the Claw .50 I only shot the bolts at half power
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I'd be curious to buy a set of bolts then contract one of the members here to fabricate the arse-end (the airnock) out of ABS or similar from a 3D printer. Though withoutb holding one, my guess is the nocks are UHMW poly? Something hard and slick I'm sure.
I'd have no problems adding fletching- I have a Bitz buried somewhere- it works with vanes as well as feathers.
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I'd be curious to buy a set of bolts then contract one of the members here to fabricate the arse-end (the airnock) out of ABS or similar from a 3D printer. Though withoutb holding one, my guess is the nocks are UHMW poly? Something hard and slick I'm sure.
I'd have no problems adding fletching- I have a Bitz buried somewhere- it works with vanes as well as feathers.
If you buy AirBolts you wont need to make nocks nor ad fletching, it's all there already :)
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I ordered the 50 cal bolts from PA ,now I need a good crossbow target, googled for info ,quite a bit of conficting opinions on whats best ,I have the small round reinhart foam target ,its really for broadhead use so I got that covered ,its difficult to remove field points , so I'm in the market for a target that will stop field point bolts at 500fps anyone have recommendations, going to Cabelas today to see what thry got plus I have about 50.00 in points so will be resonable cost wise
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Just got off of Cabelas website ,looks like morrells yellow jacket yj450 plus is the best they have for the price gonna go ck it out ,as soon as I can get my lazy ^&* in gear
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I would still fill a bag with Denim or heavy fabric and set it behind the target with a piece of Ply behind it ( all tied up tight ) and use blunts rather then Field points.
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I would still fill a bag with Denim or heavy fabric and set it behind the target with a piece of Ply behind it ( all tied up tight ) and use blunts rather then Field points.
Absolutely.
I suspect a field tip is going to keep moving on after hitting a basic bag target. I've had poke-throughs using bodkins with my horsebow and it only pulls 55 pounds and shoots maybe 170 FPS. An airbow is going to keep going. Maybe double-bagged or really packed full of denim and canvas... and blunts!
Manny- I was thinking use ordered airbolts as templates to create my own. I don't know is length-tuning would be needed with an airbow but I'm curious to experiment and shorten the length to reduce valve dwell due to lighter weight (and possibly faster exit from the muzzle). I don't want to fall down the rabbit hole of spine/tip/fletching tuning like I did with my primitive tackle, but it never hurts to have extra ammo.
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If you look at Tyler video he was mentioning that if you have a barrel to long, or conversely an arrow to short it just doesn't work well
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Ok my bolts got her. The hole in the muscle brake is to big around so need to take it off when I shoot bolts. So took it off and slid a bolt in and yes they are to long. Took 2 1/4 off the pointed end . Now the nestle perfectly in the barrel. Sooo now my question is when I shoot them with the bolt spinning will the fletching hit the air tube. Should I trim them a hair so they don’t or will they not expand to their fullest that fast?
If they expand to their fullest they will slightly slap the air tube.
If I trim them a hair will it effect their flight?
Bought some shape shifter mechanical broad heads because regular broad heads might hit the air tube as well.
I do think after all the adjustments that it will turn out to be a kick butt arrow gun. Fingers crossed 🤞
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My Dragon Slayer did not come with the muzzle brake and my barrel is about 1/2 longer than than the air tube so no problem with fleching fouling , my bolts haven't arrived yet so can't comment on lenght of modified bolt ,I did buy a crossbow target the morrell yj425 , they were out of the yj450 ,it looks plenty thick enough to stop a air bolt at 500fps + ,I'll back it up with my rubber mulch pcp target and 3/4 plywood just in case
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I need to correct my last post, the morrell yj425 was not what I bought ,it looked too thin , ibought the black out 450 . A very thick target hopefully it will stop air bolts at 500fps+.
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Ronald, we must have different versions of the Dragon Slayer. Could you post a picture of yours. How fast does yours shoot round balls. I have a fascination with these rifles for a while now and try to learn about each version. From what I can find out there seems to be three Dragon Slayer versions that came out after the Dragon even though they are all stamped Dragon on the breach and none stamped Dragon Slayer. Two versions were sold by pyramid air as mine was as a Dragon Slayer as I think yours was. I’m just guessing about yours because I have seen a picture from pyramyd Air of one with out a muscle brake. I sure love mine for it’s short length and easy carry weight.
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I can't remember the exact fps ,but 720fps seems to ring a bell ,it was my first big bore ,too loud for back yard ,but did kill a big pig with it ,head shot straight on between the eyes DRT never moved , the fill probe assembly does stick out past the barrel a little but I don't think it will affect the fleching at the speed it passes by.
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Ok my bolts got her. The hole in the muscle brake is to big around so need to take it off when I shoot bolts. So took it off and slid a bolt in and yes they are to long. Took 2 1/4 off the pointed end . Now the nestle perfectly in the barrel. Sooo now my question is when I shoot them with the bolt spinning will the fletching hit the air tube. Should I trim them a hair so they don’t or will they not expand to their fullest that fast?
If they expand to their fullest they will slightly slap the air tube.
If I trim them a hair will it effect their flight?
Bought some shape shifter mechanical broad heads because regular broad heads might hit the air tube as well.
I do think after all the adjustments that it will turn out to be a kick butt arrow gun. Fingers crossed 🤞
Go ahead trim the fletching, it's not really needed, the .357 don't even have feathers
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Manny, ok will do. Your advice has been right on so far.
Ronald, that’s one beautiful gun. It’s the model I thought it was. I think yours will be much better for bolts than mine because of the longer barrel. No problems with fetching or broad heads.
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The airbolts came today ,the centering collars are not glued on they just slip on over the shaft and the fieldpoint or broadhead keeps them in place ,so the insert just needs to be removed and the shaft shortened and the insert reglued . The vanes look like standard blazer vanes.
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I cut the bolts down to 19-1/2 inchs , thats 2-3/8 shorter than stock ,that puts the back edge of nock about 1/2 inch from the transfer port ,waiting for glue to dry to test fire one, I only cut two of the six so have 4 more to cut if the first two work out
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Yeahhhhhh :) :)
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The little, lightweight Dragon Slayer should make a great Hunting Arrow launcer
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Not sure if anyone has already this. But, do the bolts quiet down an airgun compared to slugs?
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Not sure if anyone has already this. But, do the bolts quiet down an airgun compared to slugs?
No I didn't notice any reduction in noise ,maybe even louder , first shot was low and to the left ,arrow actually skipped off the ground, I didn't ck the rifle for zero with a slug before shooting the arrow but is been in a hard case since I last shot it ,will do more testing friday gotta go out of town tmrw. The target was 35yds away.
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Not sure if anyone has already this. But, do the bolts quiet down an airgun compared to slugs?
Mine it's louder,...but also gone from 90 FPE to 175 FPE :) :) :)
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Not sure if anyone has already this. But, do the bolts quiet down an airgun compared to slugs?
No I didn't notice any reduction in noise ,maybe even louder , first shot was low and to the left ,arrow actually skipped off the ground, I didn't ck the rifle for zero with a slug before shooting the arrow but is been in a hard case since I last shot it ,will do more testing friday gotta go out of town tmrw. The target was 35yds away.
Yeah, zeroing the gun fist sure helps ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D ;D
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Finally got back to the DS and the air bolts ,turned out the scope was off ,when I shot a slug it hit in almost the same spot the arrow did in the dirt 3 more slugs and its zeroed for the slugs ,the arrows were still 3 inches low so the slugs and arrows will not have same POI , Also one of the inserts pulled out and is lost in the target so that not worthy, the target stops the bolts fine only about 1o inches of penetration, haven't chronyed them yet ,the sound meter I have registered 115.5 for slugs and 113.2 for the arrows.
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Testing tomorrow. Got my bolts cut, blunt tips, crossbow target trimmed fetching and some shape shifters. Took off muzzle brake here is my DS with reworked bolts.
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Oops here is one more
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Cool, looking forward to see how you like it.
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I lost two inserts , guess l used the wrong glue,should have known better back to JB weld epoxy for me, I might be able to dig them out of the target with some long hemostats.
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I lost two inserts , guess l used the wrong glue,should have known better back to JB weld epoxy for me, I might be able to dig them out of the target with some long hemostats.
Yep, I epoxy them after cutting
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Finally found a place to test air bolts in my Dragon Slayer.
1. Loud. Much louder that shooting round balls
2 ;D ;D ;D 492FPS
3 cut down weight of bolt 407g
4. Gets 218.82 FPE
5. One mil-dot low at 30 yds
Now all I have to do is find a Dragon. 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Finally found a place to test air bolts in my Dragon Slayer.
1. Loud. Much louder that shooting round balls
2 ;D ;D ;D 492FPS
3 cut down weight of bolt 407g
4. Gets 218.82 FPE
5. One mil-dot low at 30 yds
Now all I have to do is find a Dragon. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Great results,...That Slayer now is a true mean hunting machine.
One mildot low at 30 yards is excellent.
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Thanks Manny, you were right about a good back stop. Since I was testing on the sly I used a portable air bolt target. It claims that it will stop any field head or broad head. I used a blunt .Blew right through it and buried it self up to the fletching about 10 yards further. Glad they were orange or I never would have found it. Hopefully the next back stop will be a hog.
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I heard some people turned some pet dragons loose in Florida, and now you can hunt them on public lands, the dragons have no natural enemies, so the're killing the native species, time for a Florida Dragon hunt.
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Them baby dragons with the poison poop are easily downed buy my libertys. A few have gone to Dragon heaven by liberty or death all ready. Hope to go to the island of hurricanes and earth quakes to help them with their dragon problems.
One thing that seems odd to me is that the DS gets about the same FPE with bolts as it does with round ball. Thought it would be higher with bolts. Know it’s deadlier with bolts.
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Them baby dragons with the poison poop are easily downed buy my libertys. A few have gone to Dragon heaven by liberty or death all ready. Hope to go to the island of hurricanes and earth quakes to help them with their dragon problems.
One thing that seems odd to me is that the DS gets about the same FPE with bolts as it does with round ball. Thought it would be higher with bolts. Know it’s deadlier with bolts.
I think that's about right, there's a point of deminishing returns and I believe as you got heavier than that it will show.
I think the only reason I got more FPE with the REX is because of the Inlane valve.
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airbolts are the ticket i would hate to home brew something flying that fast and have it blow up imo
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A shortened, ported/sprung Bulldog is the perfect dual purpose airgun Mike speaks of. If the shortened barrel is sized correctly to the bolts or visa versa for the diy shooter.
With safety engaged, cock the Bulldog, Put 4 cast bullets in the magazine, leave the bolt open, with the safety engaged and holding that bolt open for a 2nd safety, slide a bolt down the barrel just shy of the magazine, then with the bolt still held open, the magazine indexed to the Empty chamber, slide the bolt into the magazine, close the bolt and check that the safety is engaged.
Shot # 1, air bolt, shot #2, 152 grain Noe cast 890 FPS, shots 3, 4,, 5 same deadly cast bullets.
If the animal is still standing, take up photography when your released from the hospital.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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LOL!