GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Topic started by: Motorhead on November 01, 2018, 08:01:27 PM
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Been goofing around today in seeing if i can successfully Swag a .22 caliber pellet INTO a .20 caliber bullet ?
I did accomplish a simple way in doing so and it surprisingly worked pretty well too IMO ::)
Starting with a stub of 3/4" 7075 grade aluminum drilled a .220" pilot hole @ .400" deep, then another 1/2" at .201" ( drills were corner edge broke so to make a very smooth hole ) Then O.D. cut to make an edge so it would drop into one of the holes on the bench block. Took a punch and beveled the end to be the same angle as the skirt of the H&N barracuda 21.3 grain .22 cal pellet. Placing a pellet into die / swag tool it sits on the skirt edge. Placing punch centered on pellet and tapping it threw via a few hammer strike on punch drive it thew the swag die exiting as a longer and smaller 21 grain .20 cal "Semi-Bullet"
* The last photo shows the skirt material is being forced along side the punch lengthening the skirt and will be grinding a slight taper on the punch to find that perfect taper where the skirt is a tad thicker and ends up a tad shorter.
Took the first 10 shooting them at 40 yards with a muzzle velocity of @ 870 fps threw a 20" choked LW barrel. All landed inside 3/8" which was a shock !! .... loading however difficult being the barrel does not have sufficient free bore / leade and upon loaded you forcefully shove them into the rifling. Got em loaded, but not ideal.
Have read people talking about this in the past, but never seen anyone actually do it ???
Scott
UPDATE;
Went back and ground a shallow taper on the punch. Now as the new pellet skirt is formed it does so with a tapering thickness and NOT pulling the trailing edge lead further back. Done with the reground punch OAL of the new .20 cal pellet / semi-bullet is @ .015" shorter that the first ones shown. They fall off the punch now too once exiting swag die.
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Now that you've made it and we hear how it shoots, I'm curious when some intrepid manufacturer will make these shaped as yours looks.
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Very cool!
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Macro is hard to get a good focus ...
but here the skirt after tapering the punch being non distorted and the original trailing edge minus the pulled lead. second pic the tapered punch.
I also put some JSB 15.9's and some Crosman 14.3 domes threw the Swag die and shot them ... at 40 yards those too hanging inside 3/8" +/- proving the Die works ... who-da-thunk ???
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Hmmm almost a full 2 tenths...wonder about 3 tenths... a new 25g .22 JSB..? or another path to 30g + .22 pellets... Hmm...
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Pretty ingenious thinking and manufacturing there Scott! The finished pellet/bullet looks great too. Glad it groups as well! I think you’re on to something that pellet manufacturers should do...think out of the box!
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Very clever!
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Pretty cool to be able to make a .20 out of a .22, using inexpensive crosmans and such a setup could be a cheap way to feed a streak.
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Removed thread contamination...
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Don't know if those dies could be used to make pellets from wire (so you don't have to kill a 4 cent pellet to make another one). If you want to try, there are many sources for lead wire, such as:
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-wire-25-lb-spool/ (https://www.rotometals.com/lead-wire-25-lb-spool/)
https://www.mcmaster.com/8879k2 (https://www.mcmaster.com/8879k2)
https://www.amazon.com/Diameter-Pure-99-9-Lead-Wire/dp/B001QUXES8 (https://www.amazon.com/Diameter-Pure-99-9-Lead-Wire/dp/B001QUXES8)
I have a pair of pliers with an adjustable stop to cut wire to a preset length. Then I weight the cut lengths and sort them into piles at the nearest 0.1 grain for pellet blanks...
The effort is more based on weight of available .20 pellets
As it stands JSB 13.6 is as heavy as you can get now days & there is rumor of a 15.89 coming soon, beyond that the Eunjin or Sam Yang heavy stuff is NLA.
So taking 21 grains in a .22 and resizing for the .20 produces a pellet weight you simply can no longer get.
Post more in YOU CAN DO THAT with what you have rather than a manufacture a raw swaged pellet thread.
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Been play all night making progressively smaller final exit size dies stepping down the size finding once sized at @ .198" they load with a firm push ( much better than at .201" )
Will do some accuracy testing in the A.M and post up some target pics if worth a hoot ... or post accordingly ;)
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Macro is hard to get a good focus ...
but here the skirt after tapering the punch being non distorted and the original trailing edge minus the pulled lead. second pic the tapered punch.
I also put some JSB 15.9's and some Crosman 14.3 domes threw the Swag die and shot them ... at 40 yards those too hanging inside 3/8" +/- proving the Die works ... who-da-thunk ???
More consistent head size more consistent results.. ;D
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My gut says as long as the skirt base is nice and even... it may even be a superior pellet shape aerodynamically... and may even be less prone to dynamic instability at longer range... I still think due to having a waist and hollow base they will like a more normal pellet be over spun but not as badly and due to the shape/length it will handle being over spun better...
My next order from NOE just might include some extra push rods to shape for pellet experiments... and I wanted some inserts to open up for doing in between sizing with also for the cast rounds... so instead of .218 or .219 also have .2185... I do have .249 .2495 and .250 and My Mrod does like .2495 and .250 with the .25 40g BBT....249 opens up as does .251... you just proved some skirts can be sized without negative effect...plus the can be sized back out some if necessary...
oh yep I will be watching this thread to see what result look like with different pellets...pics of the .201 crosman please.. ;)
Hey you might even be able to make the Gamo pellets work..! and maybe a 34g .20 Beast..! Do think it will work for the less pointed pellets but would be surprised if there is any help for the Daisy .22 pointed... some shapes just will not do well I think but some might be really good....
a .20 barracuda hunter extreme..! the possibilities are really fun to think about...
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Removed thread contamination...
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For what it's worth, both the 22.9 and 23.7 grain .20 cal Eun Jin (SamYang) pellets are available from Krale. They are currently priced at $6.55 per 150 count tin.
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127 (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127)
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For what it's worth, both the 22.9 and 23.7 grain .20 cal Eun Jin (SamYang) pellets are available from Krale. They are currently priced at $6.55 per 150 count tin.
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127 (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127)
Postage cost likely to kill that idea .... Tho just guessing.
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For what it's worth, both the 22.9 and 23.7 grain .20 cal Eun Jin (SamYang) pellets are available from Krale. They are currently priced at $6.55 per 150 count tin.
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127 (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/ammunition/airgun-pellets.html?caliber_multi=377&manufacturer=127)
Postage cost likely to kill that idea .... Tho just guessing.
That and the cost of the pellets themselves. If you can resize any .22 pellet, I'd just stick with that idea. Can't beat the consistency of every pellet sized in the same die, that is the way to go. If I had the tools I'd probably build some dies are re-size all my .177 for the best accuracy.
I think you are onto something, and I would bet you could make good money off a quality pellet sizer these days. Nobody else is really doing it these days, at least not that I am aware of.
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After making a 4th die / swager & ending at .198" bore size we ran a bunch of different .22 pellets threw and check loading difficulty. MUCH BETTER with all needing a slight nudge to get seated in the barrel.
In pushing the pellets threw to resize, the H&N barracuda due to head shape sized down VERY uniformly. The JSB 15.9 & 18.1 due to softer lead also sized down VERY uniformly. The Crosman domes DID NOT size down uniformly and you could see that by visual inspection while rolling :P
We went and shot them all at 40 yards off my field target "Bucket & Sticks" ... so some errors in being steady certainly contribute to group sizing ... But the point still gets made as to the Success & Failures of this Resizing caliber experiment :o
1st picture what JSB 18.1's look like after resizing ... 2nd picture how they shot ;D Velocity 859
3rd picture the Crosman domes after sizing ( note the LACK of uniformity ) ... 4th picture how they shot :P Velocity 922
5th picture the H&N barracuda ( Sized pic is on the first post ) ... How they now shot when sized down .003" from original test where they shot great ... Now not so much :-\ Velocity 888
6th picture the JSB 15.9 ( No sized picture but similar to 18.1's ) ... How they shot ;D ( shanked the one shot & knew it ) Velocity 877
Well my conclusion is if wanting some 16 or *18 grain pellets in .20 caliber ... THIS WORKS and quite well too (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/av-101150.gif)
Thanks for following along.
Scott
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Thanks Scott...
I do think over time I will be messing with this it makes for a whole bunch of possibilities...
with just the square end of my NOE .22 push rod I sent the nose of a Benji 27.8 grain thru a .249" die insert and then thru a .224 insert and then pushed it back out... just to se how the Nose turned out... if I had a .243 set they go from 248 down to .235 so stepping down might be helpful rather than just going from .249 to .224... may give more consistent results... also a pushrod custom for each different pellet to fit in the skirt just right may help... but yep will be experimenting with the NOE inserts and Lee press in the future...
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=564_104_411&products_id=3009 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=564_104_411&products_id=3009)
There are so many possibilities Ceds .172 comes to mind from .177 and maybe some of the .20 even...
Bobs 7mm from .30
Me I have a bunch of .22 air barrels and a small host of .22 lr, .22 WMR, .22 hornet Barrels... know where a 5.6x52r(.22(7) Savage High power) barrel can be had... that's close enough I could say I have a .23 cal.. ;)
the possibilities for some fun experimentation are almost endless... and some may turnout very useful... 40g enjin .25 to .22 or just my cast 34g .25 to .22
But yep I do think with some work there are a lot of pellets of various caliber that may be able to be used this way...
pic below just to show what the head looks like Benj .25 domed down to .224...was not worried about the skirt just a quick and dirty check of .25 to .22
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Meplat is from pushing it back out...
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Getting macro to focus, just put it close to a back ground and a steadied camera...
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Very cool Scott. I really like the idea of a heavier .20 pellet. 8)
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Scott
Thank you.........great Ideas...........Guys
Has anyone tried taking a pellet that Don't shoot accurately, in the intended rifle/cal,
then apply the same process, and see the results?
I realize you are experimenting with 20 cal etc, could the same process be used for a 22 cal, or for any caliber,
bumping the head/skirt diameter up for better accuracy?
As it seems that there is no shortage of undersized pellets etc.
Your thoughts on the lead HARDNESS, that may have an effect on the process?
Tia,
Don
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I made a die for bumping up .30 cal JSBs to .308 cal....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Big%20Bore/IMG_3180_zpsb4865488.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Big%20Bore/IMG_3180_zpsb4865488.jpg.html)
The pellet sat on a tapered post that fit inside the skirt.... You lowered the top half of the die over it and gave it a tap.... It only touches the end of the pellet, the ID of the die is oversize (so the pellet doesn't hang up in the upper, female portion)…. The height was adjustable, and you set it to create a slight Meplat on the pellet when it squashed it lengthwise, which increased the diameter of both head and skirt....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Big%20Bore/IMG_3181_zps5e712afb.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Big%20Bore/IMG_3181_zps5e712afb.jpg.html)
There is a pellet sitting on the post in the second photo, some resized ones on the left, and a comparison between a resized one (nicely engraved) after pushing through a .308 barrel, compared to a stock one pushed through the same barrel (virtually no rifling marks)…. The bumped up pellets shot a LOT better in the .308 PB barrel I tested them in....
Bob
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here is another approach to bumping up...
I like the pedestal but would rather have a bit/punch in one of my drill presses than the hammer and BB.. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwg_cqC1y-M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwg_cqC1y-M)
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KO. The video just proves the point that undersized pellets don't engage rifling and that the slightly modified undersized pellets perform better. I've been developing Swaging kits for pellets and I have a database of various sizes of pellets and its heads, what's interesting is that the skirt diameter proves to be the most critical factor. Because the skirt seals the barrel and gets sized back by the choke. While the rifling engaged by the head help in preventing the pellet bounce inside the barrel. So if the diameter of the entire pellet is the same viz. Head and the skirt, then it is going to affect the accuracy.
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The pellet head imo can be just big enough to bore ride with minimal engagement... the skirt well it needs full engagement for sealing... however the rifling is not all that tall and if the skirt and the head are the same size and ride the top of the rifling the skirt will get the necessary obturation in most pcp rifles... meaning they will get hit with 2000-3000 psi and expand to fit to the grooves... so as long as the skirt is not under bore size as long as all are the same size there is no problem imo...
now springers might get some benefit from having fully sealed skirts when chambered...
If you look down many barrels there are all sorts heck many of my crosman 15$ barrels had very little difference between bore and groove... I mean like .0002-.003... and they did fine for pellets at the low fpe they were designed for...
look at the old Dianna 52 barrel in this linked thread... to me the sealing does not happen until firing, not as you seat the pellet... those very small grooves will just barely have lead in them... then the blast hits and then there is enough lead in the grooves to impart the spin for these 20 fpe rifles... but that is just my opinion in the end...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77016.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77016.0)
unless you are using very hard lead( and I would not) the obturation will happen...
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and once the pellet is in the barrel the skirt and head are the same size or very nearly so... because the barrel has sized them... the head being undersize for the bore is the biggest enemy of accuracy...
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Most pellet heads, as made, are larger than the land diameter but smaller than the groove diameter, in most barrels.... However, they vary a lot, and what one gun likes, another doesn't.... The skirts are almost always groove diameter or a bit larger, but of course end up sized by the barrel, but with the shape blown out somewhat by the air pressure....
Bob
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" My MaMa always said , life is like a tin of pellets , ya never know whatcha going to get ." ???
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Hey Guys
Any more updates or info? ???
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Hey Guys
Any more updates or info? ???
Not really ... Tried it & it works ... so when i need some heavy 20's know what to do and tooling to do it ;D
Found soft lead works better than hard ... Steps in die need to be gradual so lead evenly gets choked and you don't end up folding the pellet in its waist area when forcing threw the die.
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Thanks Scott
I have an old Thalson single stage press, being a front feed, (open view) I will make up some sizing dies,
to see if I can bump up the heads for a better fit and more uniform results etc.
I know I can set an adjustment post (for the correct length) to get the correct sizing at the head and skirt at the same time,
and I think I can get a semi automatic sizing dies, size the skirts first, and at the same time, bump up the head size,
with 1 down stroke of the handle. then lift the handle and the pellet drop free etc.
You have given me an itch that needs scratching, just to see, if nothing else.
I only have the 2 calibers, 17 & 22 to work with at this time, but a 25 caliber bug is crawling around in my OLD mind....
LoL.
Tia,
Don
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Scott
Questions for you, If you don't mind,
I use a 22 cal 79/HPA OEM bbl,
I want to enlarge the head diameters a couple of thousands, to fit the bbl,
the pellets I am using just about slide thru the bbl, .217" dia (measured) with little or NO land engagement/marks, on the head,
you can use 2 fingers to push them thru etc.
I have not found a pellet head that will leave good land engagements/marks, on the head, out of 30 some different brands,
tried so far etc.
If I use a 25 cal, very SOFT pellets, (have a couple of cans and I don't have a 25 cal), yet.
Head dia measure .242 to .245",
Would 1, 2, or 3 steps be advisable for step downs in diameter to .218"?
I would have approx .028"+, to size down to .218", to start with.
I am figuring a .218" head dia as a starting point,
have numerous dies and hones that I can open up to a larger dia, ie; .2175 or larger", as needed,
(to find the bbl/head dia to start with), then work from that point.
I will be able to use a round coned punch inside the pellet skirts, that fits the inside taper etc
and make it just long enough to displace (swag) some of the lead of the (POINTED head) larger,
and round the pointed head into a semi dome head at the same time etc.
Or would I better off, on head bumping/swagging a .217", 22 cal up a couple of thousands,
to find the correct size?
Not worried about the skirt dia, as I know how to swag them larger etc.
Your thoughts or suggestions,
Tia,
Don
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Not done a .25 to .22 and no clue how much shape shift will happen doing so ???
I did find that those pellets when resized that LOST most of the Diablo waist profile while gaining more a bullets straight sided profile shot the worst.
Would think, if you can stabilize / hold the pellet is such a way that a slight crush to the head expanding it a smidge may be the better choice in your case.
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I think it may be worth a try .25 to .22... But we will not know till it is tried and in our specific barrel/rifle... All the guys I knew over the years would size in two steps if they had to size more than ~.005 ish... so when I do try it will do it in 3-4 steps most likely... the smaller contact patch may handle sizing in bigger chunks..? in the end only one way to find out...
do not know if you have ever seen the Paco Kelly setup it bumps up .22lr... just presenting it and a few other for general bumping up tech/ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyVW4xyiK2Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyVW4xyiK2Y)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wQC51Nst_g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wQC51Nst_g)
the Waltz die the one I like seems a lot safer...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inEmsBcAwho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inEmsBcAwho)
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KO
Thanks
I have seen those videos before, they all make my pucker factor go on the + side, ;)
as you are basically dealing with a RF chamber, making those conversions, with loaded ammo etc,
the die one would be a better solution, IMHO.
I have some dies coming so I can try sizing (head bumping) the pellets,
I'll have already made a die to fit the Thalsen press, I have converted over,
if everything goes correctly, I can head bump and size the skirt in 1 pass thru the die,
with a automatic ejection of the pellet, after head and skirt sizing.
I have some .200" round pure lead balls, that I will head bump, up in size first, to find this bbl's true diameter,
which I know is over .217" dia, by how much unknown at this time.......
I should be fairly easy to polish the die up to the size needed, as I have ball hones in several grit sizes/diameters,
that I used to make sizing dies for some of my CF wildcats cases I shoot etc.
Waiting on parts to get here, as usual............ ::) All I need is a couple of more irons in the fire,
any I would busier than a long tailed cat, in a room full of rocking chairs, ;)
More later.
Tia,
Don
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Scott,
Just wondering if you lube the pellets before resizing? I would assume that it would make thing easier....
-Y
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Scott,
Just wondering if you lube the pellets before resizing? I would assume that it would make thing easier....
-Y
Did so using pellets previously treated with Finish Line Krytec wax lube. As shown in picture the resulting surface finish is super smooth showing no scuff or lead tearing.
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I am a firm believer in necessity is the mother of invention. And motorhead, thanks for even contemplating let alone going through with it and the detail and time that it has taken.
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We have .20 caliber JSB HADES now ... 15.9 grain made from .22 cal HADES.
using the .199" sizing die processed a 500 count tin easy peezy !
Now we have a some serious .20 cal hunting pellets & they shoot great too !!
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Scott
Outstanding thinking, 8) ;D What no photo's, using NOE's size dies?
You keep pushing that 20 caliber and I might break down and make one,
the only headache is the magazine, don't know which size to convert over, 17 or 22 caliber.....etc.
Wouldn't a 4 gun battery, all the same brand/make, one each of the calibers, 17,20,22,25,
sitting there, just grab and go, I have been thinking about the which make/brand to use ............,
Co2 and HPA conversions for each etc.......... 8)
Then add on a PP 700 pistols for each caliber, just like the Old Winchesters used to be in 25-20, 32-20,
38-40 or 44-40 and the Old standby 45 Colt calibers, would be the best collection possible, for anyone.
Thinking real hard.....................
Thanks,
Don
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.22 cal HADES on LEFT and RESIZED to .20 cal HADES on RIGHT. Skirts fold down and blend in nicely with head getting a nice thin support band at head. .22 to .20 with soft lead works GREAT !
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Thanks Scott
Those look good, kinda like my head resized 22 cal, nice head driving band. 8)
Tia,
Don
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Hi All,
Is a product like this commercially available or is it a one-off creation? I'm interested in knowing the cost of the die - lets assume I could use a commercially available press like an RCBS/Hornaday single to do the pressing. Are there spec's I could use to have a local machine shop make one?
Long story short, a .20 came into my possession - my volume of shooting depends directly on availability. A die set would greatly increase avaiability.
Thank you for looking
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Total custom .... Never seen any commercial interest is such a resize die.
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Scott
Those resized JSB18,1's are lazers!
Good information, thanks for sharing.
Hunter
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Thank you for the response.
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It's interesting that pellets of different weights all shot the same group size. maybe the aerodynamics counts more?
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Scott
Those resized JSB18,1's are lazers!
Good information, thanks for sharing.
Hunter
Kewl ;) .. some actual feedback !