Winchester 800 vs 1000

[CleanAir]

I'm in the process of reviving my Turkish Winchester 800 to proper operation.  It has the walnut stock with the horizontal grooves in a square pattern, the trigger guard with the adjustment hole in it, and the laminated trigger internals.  I've likely read every related post on this forum, looked at lots of photos, and the innards look identical to the 1000 models I've seen on this site. 

I bought it new and it has never been apart.  I observed the same thing others have reported regarding the crudely cut mainspring digging into tophat and bearing washer.  In my case, exactly one coil of the spring was broken off and loose inside when I took it apart.  The mainspring would have originally been about 37 coils.  In the tear down guide by RSEnterprises and one or two other photos I've seen on this forum, the 1000 mainspring appears to have 44 coils.  Since I am planning on replacing the mainspring, this leads me to the question: Is the spring the only difference between the 800 and 1000 models?

I definitely have the skills and ability to do the repairs and mods and also the safety minded common sense, however I don't have specific experience working on air rifles and have never had an air rifle apart before.   This forum has been a very valuable resource so far. 

I have used the gun for years and up until it started acting up it was very accurate.  I'm intrigued by the possibility of improving the trigger.  I have the RSEnterprises tuning guide showing where to polish, what spring to change, and a little more scary: where to remove some material from one of the trigger components.  It's a little vague about that removal and just says :"angle this area towards the front".  I'll probably do the polishing and trigger spring change but leave out removal of any material for now.  That said, anyone who has specific experience with this trigger assembly and or feedback on what is shown in that RSEnterprises tuning guide, I'd love to hear what you might have to say. 

[lefteyeshot]

Got both and the Daisy 1000 same gun in plastic. Got the Win and Daisy 1000's cheap same day at pawn shops in Jessup and Waycross, Ga. Bought the 800 at a pawn shop in Aiken, S.C.

From Daisy I ordered a wood Winchester stock for the Daisy. Later the trigger broke, couldn't fix it so I tossed it and put the 800 in the Winchester stock. Nice looking stocks.

If you haven't tore the trigger down I wouldn't. It's a bear.

You probably know the Chinese made Win 1100 and Daisy 1101 are not the same gun as the turkey Win and Daisy at all. Enjoy.

[CleanAir]

Too bad those parts got tossed.  They would be good to practice on.  Yes I did already take apart the trigger assembly.  I studied it until I felt comfortable with how it works and made the little drill bit stub recommended to reassemble it. I was able to take it apart and put it back together.  Haven't done anything else yet with the rifle at all except sand and oil the stock while I gather information about how to proceed with the mainspring, cleaning up the metal damage etc. on the internals, and ponder what to do on the trigger. 

[lefteyeshot]

Wish they had metal triggers. You might find a spring for it, rather you go short or long at Air Gun Headquarters.

[CleanAir]

So a little work on this rifle today.  Gave the walnut stock a second coat of boiled linseed oil. While that was soaking in, did some de-burring, polishing and honing on the piston, top hat and cylinder.   If my photos posted, you can see how the spring was just hack cut from the factory with no prep or refinement on the ends and also what that did to the bearing washer.  The top hat looked like that washer but I took care of that today.  Since there are two washers I'll just flip the gouged one over.

Once the stock soaked in some BLO for a while and I wiped it down, I started looking at the trigger assembly parts.  I removed the hump at the top of the trigger and added the screw/pin to make this a 2 stage trigger.  Although the trigger is plastic, it's pretty hard stuff and I haven't broke it yet in 20 years.

Saw that I needed a breech seal and had some choices...  Order a pack of 5 rubber ones from Hatsan USA, or for a few bucks more order a pack of 3 urethane ones from Australia.  Urethane Breech seals are on the way. 

So the next move is to do a little filing and polishing on the laminated trigger parts.  Then all I need is a spring.  So if anyone knows if my theory is correct about the spring being the only difference between the 800 and 1000, let me know what you know. 

[lefteyeshot]

I wonder if the 1000 has a shorter top hat to make room for the extra coils? The one in your pic seems kind of long.

[mikeyb]

...  Then all I need is a spring.... 

While you are awaiting either more info or a new spring I suggest you repair the spring you have and shoot the rifle!

Cut, heat/collapse, and sand/polish both ends. Reinstall in the rifle and shoot it over the chronograph. You WILL have lost some muzzle energy but may be surprised at how well the rifle shoots slightly "detuned".

I acquired a well used Magnum springer with a broken coil spring. Spring snapped about 5 turns from one end. While waiting for a backordered OEM coil spring I "repaired" what was left of the main spring and reassembled the rifle. YES the muzzle energy was down ~25% but I was SURPRISED at how much NICER that rifle was to shoot! I now HAVE the OEM full power spring ready to install but am enjoying the detuned rifle too much to make the change ... yet! It has remained detuned for 2 years now :-)

Someone here (GTA) posted a good overview of finishing spring ends but I can't find it at the moment. Youtube has some instructional videos.
Sorry for the crude sketch... this is how I prefer to finish the ends of springs I use in my airguns.

[Back_Roads]

...  Then all I need is a spring.... 

While you are awaiting either more info or a new spring I suggest you repair the spring you have and shoot the rifle!

Cut, heat/collapse, and sand/polish both ends. Reinstall in the rifle and shoot it over the chronograph. You WILL have lost some muzzle energy but may be surprised at how well the rifle shoots slightly "detuned".

I acquired a well used Magnum springer with a broken coil spring. Spring snapped about 5 turns from one end. While waiting for a backordered OEM coil spring I "repaired" what was left of the main spring and reassembled the rifle. YES the muzzle energy was down ~25% but I was SURPRISED at how much NICER that rifle was to shoot! I now HAVE the OEM full power spring ready to install but am enjoying the detuned rifle too much to make the change ... yet! It has remained detuned for 2 years now :-)

Someone here (GTA) posted a good overview of finishing spring ends but I can't find it at the moment. Youtube has some instructional videos.
Sorry for the crude sketch... this is how I prefer to finish the ends of springs I use in my airguns.

If not on the new GTA, check the archives, as back then this springer tuning was the thing, before the PCP guns went mainstream. WTH I just clicked the link and it is dead What happened to Old GTA ?

[CleanAir]

The top hat being a different size is a reasonable theory Tim.  I included some photos of it inside of my very expensive plastic calipers...  The overall height is 1-3/8" and the bottom part is 15/16".  Maybe someone has a top hat from a 1000 they can measure.

Thanks for that sketch Michael.  I certainly could fix up that spring and put it back in.  With only one coil missing I probably wouldn't even notice.  I'm not jonesing to get out and shoot it because I shot it about a week ago. Meanwhile I'm having a good time with my first exploration of air rifle innards: working on it, finding parts, learning how it works, and of course interacting in this forum.  For example, that avatar of yours: the animation of a trigger assembly, is really cool.  I just worked on the trigger parts today.  Ground and polished a couple of pieces and then put the assembly back together and played with pulling the trigger and watching it work like in that animation.  A week or so ago I had never even thought about a trigger assembly before.  There is a little window in it where I can see the polished parts slide over each other when I pull the trigger and I can see how the geometry of the whole thing changed after adding the screw to make it two stage.  It is pretty satisfying to do the work, be able to watch it in action and also feel the difference.  There are some photos below showing what I'm talking about with the trigger both cocked and fired and you can see the sear positions through the little window.

It was also an interesting concept to polish laminated steel pieces. In the photo below you can see the unpolished trigger lever in the middle of the polished upper and lower sears for a before and after comparison.  The laminated layers had to be evened out before polishing.   

I guess I am ready with everything now to put it together except for the spring and some self education about lubrication.  I'll see if I can find the resources that Back_Roads James was referring to about fixing the spring ends even though I'm leaning towards installing a new one.  Having fun so far and the reason I'm posting all these pictures is because I would have been interested in seeing them when I was browsing around so maybe someone else will down the road.

[CleanAir]

Got my spring, black tar, and moly in hand.  Fixed up the spring ends and polished them and this turkey is ready for reassembly.  The urethane breech seals from Australia are tracked as being in Los Angeles 6 days after ordering so I should be shooting by Monday or Tuesday.  Since I don't have any trigger or projectile speed measuring tools I'll have to just judge based on perception and I'll report back to close the loop on this thread.  I'm probably just going to have to look for a used 1000 model to answer my own questions and then I'll get to do this all over again.

[CleanAir]

I have acquired a Turkish Winchester 1000 and now I'm having fun comparing and understanding the differences.  I have taken measurements of the springs, pistons, top hats, chamber depths..., how much room is available when the spring is compressed, piston travel, and spring preload for both guns.  It's been an interesting exercise.

The pistons, top hats, and springs could technically be swapped between the two rifles in terms of diameters of the chambers, piston i.d, o.d and spring o.d., but I have chosen not to swap anything but springs.  The pistons and top hats are different lengths, the chamber depths are different, and the springs are different lengths.

That said, the piston, top hat, and chamber lengths in both guns are different but arranged in such a way that the distance that the piston seal travels from cocked position to the end of the chamber is identical.  Also identical is the distance that the spring sticks out of the piston before it starts to compress to create preload. A longer spring will have more preload and it will be the same no matter which gun the spring is installed in.  The two things that are different are the actual spring preload and the total amount of room available for the spring to be compressed when the gun is cocked.  It seems that the spring length, total compression length, and preload are the three things determining the difference between the 800 and 1000 and ultimately the design criteria of each. 

The 1000 has a smaller length that it compresses the spring to, even though the spring is longer than the 800.

the 1000 also has a greater amount of spring preload than the 800.

So based on everything I studied, I determined that it was perfectly safe to install the spring from the 1000 into the 800 leaving the 800 otherwise intact.  The result is that the 800 now has the exact amount of preload that the 1000 had but the spring is compressed 3/4" less as it was in the 1000.  The 800 had much less preload, a shorter spring, and a larger space when the spring is fully compressed.   

After reassembly using the heavy tar on the spring and the moly grease on the piston and chamber metal to metal parts it actually cocks slightly easier, is smooth, quieter, seemingly much more powerful, and a bit more accurate that it was with the old spring.  I don't have any measuring equipment for FPS but I've had this rifle for about 20 years and know it well.  Now I have a Turkish Powerline 1000 arriving today and I'll have that and the Winchester 1000 to play with, I've got a spring very close to the original 800 version so I can swap springs, add spacers etc. and get all of this out of my system before just going back to shooting and forgetting all about what is inside.

If I put the 800 spring inside of the 1000 it will have the same preload that it had in the 800 but will be compressed 3/4" more.  This will be interesting.