Bought a new Mod 125 .25 cal much slower than advertised

[Ike the GSD]

Some old results I had logged in 2019. Will revive that rifle for a fresh Fall feeding.

THAT rifle was shooting exceptionally HARSH when I received it but responded VERY WELL to simple tune-up and a better spring guide.

The results for FPE were for the listed pellet AT 30'.
That's energy near target NOT muzzle. I estimate no more than +1 FPE at the muzzle.

I'm at ~500' altitude so that should not be a significant factor.

IME Hatsan rifle spring tolerances and bore dimensions VARY A LOT contributing to a large variation in muzzle energy performance.

Best performance will depend on a specific pellet that best fits your specific bore (lead,rifling,choke,crown).

I've posted similar before but currently my opinion is that Hatsan should be rating the Mod125 rifles as follows...

177    25 +/-10% fpe (~23-28 fpe)
22   29 +/-10% fpe (~25-31 fpe)
25   31 +/-10% fpe (~28-34 fpe)

As a semi-retired engineer these are the kinds of performance specs "I want to see".

Flying porkers and unicorns aside, I still think these Hatsan rifles are the LEAST over-rated and are the BEST VALUE air rifles currently available. NOT best quality, NOT best performance, simply best value for the money... BUT ONLY if the buyer is willing to put in some tuning/repair effort.

*****
Edit:

Spring piston rifles are "fixed ENERGY" devices. Pellet velocity will vary greatly depending on pellet mass (AND FIT!). This type of rifle should be rated for muzzle ENERGY and NOT muzzle velocity. Sadly that's too technical for the average buyer. Also, all their competition uses MAX VELOCITY for marketing leverage so they must at least TRY to play on the same field.

Hatsan barrels do vary even on the exact same Model. Whatever pellet one rifle "likes best" can easily vary for every rifle.
*****

Looking at your chronograph results I'm pretty close to those energy figures, do you think the rifle will improve some once it's been broken in? It's funny worrying about 3 ft lbs if this was a powder burner forum people would be laughing LOL Of course powder burners typically have a lot more energy to spare than our air rifles do 👍

[Ike the GSD]

I just got this email from Hatsan and it basically parallels what you guys have been saying:


Kadden (HatsanUSA)
9:47 AM (34 minutes ago)
to me

Hi Wesley,
 
850 FPS is considered a max velocity in perfect conditions and light pellets. With 20gr pellets, you should expect around 770-790 FPS. Please note that the 690-700 FPS with 25-27gr pellets is considered to be at factory specifications as these are higher grain pellets.
 
We would recommend trying some lighter pellets such as our Field Target Trophy .25s to achieve higher velocities.
 
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/h-n-field-target-trophy/
Regards,
Kadden
Hatsan USA Service Team
Service@HatsanUSA.com

[Kragman1]

I have two of these, one a refurb straight from Hatsan USA, the other a clean used rifle.
Both shoot very close to 850 fps with 20 grain lead, and close to 750 fps with 25.4 grain lead.  That puts them around 32 fpe generally speaking.
I like them both very much, but they are specialty rifles.

FYI, I am at sea level and that matters to some degree.

ps - I did fire a few alloy.pellets through one of them, either 16 grain or 16.5, I'm not sure.  Three shots ranged between 1,000 fps and 1,007 fps for around 36 fpe. 

[Ike the GSD]

I have two of these, one a refurb straight from Hatsan USA, the other a clean used rifle.
Both shoot very close to 850 fps with 20 grain lead, and close to 750 fps with 25.4 grain lead.  That puts them around 32 fpe generally speaking.
I like them both very much, but they are specialty rifles.

FYI, I am at sea level and that matters to some degree.

ps - I did fire a few alloy.pellets through one of them, either 16 grain or 16.5, I'm not sure.  Three shots ranged between 1,000 fps and 1,007 fps for around 36 fpe.

Well mine must have congestive heartfailure then because it's not even making 700 fps with 25.39 gr. JSB's LOL! I live in Michigan so I think most places are about 700 feet above sea level, I'll have to check👍

[Ike the GSD]

Just checked, the elevation here is 881' above sea level!

[Blowpipe Sam]

I have two of these, one a refurb straight from Hatsan USA, the other a clean used rifle.
Both shoot very close to 850 fps with 20 grain lead, and close to 750 fps with 25.4 grain lead.  That puts them around 32 fpe generally speaking.
I like them both very much, but they are specialty rifles.

FYI, I am at sea level and that matters to some degree.

ps - I did fire a few alloy.pellets through one of them, either 16 grain or 16.5, I'm not sure.  Three shots ranged between 1,000 fps and 1,007 fps for around 36 fpe.

Well mine must have congestive heartfailure then because it's not even making 700 fps with 25.39 gr. JSB's LOL! I live in Michigan so I think most places are about 700 feet above sea level, I'll have to check👍

We're pretty much sea level here in Sopchoppy.  Sometimes below it! LOL!

When I first got my .25 caliber mod 125 it was pushing 25.39gr JSB Kings to an average of 688 FPS it has since dropped down to an average 669 fps.  It still makes better than 26 FPE and it is very pleasant to shoot.  My mod 135 on the other hand boosts the JSB Kings to 738 FPS and 30.72 FPE and other than being the only rifle I have ever wanted a Bi-pod for the mod 135 is surprisingly easy to shoot.

[Ike the GSD]

Well I think I've figured out why the rifle is shooting slow, I didn't notice it until last night, but there's quite a bit of side to side movement in the barrel, it's almost like they forgot to add one of the barrel pivot washers or the pivot screw is too small or the pivot screw hole is too large? I've tried to move the breech up and down and it seems solid that way, but the side to side movement is significant. I filled out a customer service form requesting warranty repair.  I'll let you guys know what's going on as soon as I hear from Hatsan.👍

[mikeyb]

Well I think I've figured out why the rifle is shooting slow, I didn't notice it until last night, but there's quite a bit of side to side movement in the barrel, it's almost like they forgot to add one of the barrel pivot washers or the pivot screw is too small or the pivot screw hole is too large? I've tried to move the breech up and down and it seems solid that way, but the side to side movement is significant. I filled out a customer service form requesting warranty repair.  I'll let you guys know what's going on as soon as I hear from Hatsan.👍

Had at least one refurb like that. Washers in place and the correct size bolt. Pivot bolt simply needed to be tightened "one more scallop". That removed all side2side movement on my rifle barrel.

My symptoms were left-right stringing, not low velocity. Leaky breech seal is a possibility on your rifle. Did you do the tissue test?

Since your rifle is new and still under warranty getting Hatsan to correct sloppy assembly will hopefully "teach them" do do better(?).

Hope the repair goes well :-)

I have a full set of tools I specifically modified to use on my Hatsan break-barrels. I only buy refurbished (or DEEPLY discounted) rifles and generally don't use any warranty service. I simply have low confidence in the results of airgun repair staff in general. Not that they couldn't do better. I suspect there is minimal training and strict time constraints to get the repairs done and out the door as fast as possible. Difficult for anyone to do do good work under those conditions.

[Ike the GSD]

Well I think I've figured out why the rifle is shooting slow, I didn't notice it until last night, but there's quite a bit of side to side movement in the barrel, it's almost like they forgot to add one of the barrel pivot washers or the pivot screw is too small or the pivot screw hole is too large? I've tried to move the breech up and down and it seems solid that way, but the side to side movement is significant. I filled out a customer service form requesting warranty repair.  I'll let you guys know what's going on as soon as I hear from Hatsan.👍

Had at least one refurb like that. Washers in place and the correct size bolt. Pivot bolt simply needed to be tightened "one more scallop". That removed all side2side movement on my rifle barrel.

My symptoms were left-right stringing, not low velocity. Leaky breech seal is a possibility on your rifle. Did you do the tissue test?

Since your rifle is new and still under warranty getting Hatsan to correct sloppy assembly will hopefully "teach them" do do better(?).

Hope the repair goes well :-)

I have a full set of tools I specifically modified to use on my Hatsan break-barrels. I only buy refurbished (or DEEPLY discounted) rifles and generally don't use any warranty service. I simply have low confidence in the results of airgun repair staff in general. Not that they couldn't do better. I suspect there is minimal training and strict time constraints to get the repairs done and out the door as fast as possible. Difficult for anyone to do do good work under those conditions.

Thanks for responding Mike, yeah I took the action out of the stock and tried to tighten the pivot bolt/screw and it was as tight as it was going to get, Hopefully I hear back from Hatsan before Hates freezes over LOL! This rifle has enough side to side play that a person is compelled to squeeze the forks together in a vice LOL! One thing though you can't just shake the rifle and make the barrel move, you have to physically move it, but I'm certain it's causing air to escape and the rifle makes a weird klah-whop sound when the piston reaches the end of the shot cycle.

[Ike the GSD]

"mikeb: >"Since your rifle is new and still under warranty getting Hatsan to correct sloppy assembly will hopefully "teach them" do do better(?)."  It's a $200 rifle, I expect it to have it's foibles, even though this one is defective it's given me a chance to test drive the Model enough to know I like the rifle well enough to want this one fixed rather than just getting my money back👍

[Blowpipe Sam]

I solved the barrel slop problem on my .22 caliber mod 125 by adding a a shim cut from beer can aluminum.  The Hatsan barrel washer is a Belleville type so put the shim on the convex side for best results.

[Ike the GSD]

Well I got the 125 shipped off to Hatsan, cost me $28.00 at USPS then later today I checked my emails and Hatsan had sent me a shipping label LOL👍 I thanked them and told them I shipped it already, it was nice of them to send the label💖

[Ike the GSD]

Well I no longer own this rifle Hatsan is an underhanded dishonest company and I warn all of you to stay WAY far away from their products, here's some of the email exchange between me and Hatsan's service department.

Kadden (HatsanUSA)
11:40 AM (11 hours ago)
to me

Hi Wesley,
 
When this request was originally sent in, you requested to return the airgun. In one of your most recent requests, you questioned if we'd notify you when the gun is repaired.
 
We can offer a refund but there will be a 15% restocking fee due to the missing accessories. Our technicians also did not find any issues with the gun. We can also have the gun shipped back if you do not want to proceed with a refund.
 
Please confirm how you'd like to proceed with this RMA.
Regards,
Kadden
Hatsan USA Service Team
Service@HatsanUSA.com


Kadden (HatsanUSA)
3:27 PM (7 hours ago)
to me

Hi Wesley,
 
There was a miscommunication between the technician and I. The technician did find an issue with the barrel. However, the restocking fee was applied due to missing accessories.
 
We did not refuse to repair your rifle. We refunded the rifle because we were not able to guarantee a replacement.
Regards,
wes bodine <ike457034@gmail.com>
4:15 PM (7 hours ago)
to HatsanUSA


wes bodine <ike457034@gmail.com>
4:15 PM (7 hours ago)
to HatsanUSA

In my original contact with you I DID NOT ask to return the rifle, why would I keep the scope and the stock spacers if I wanted a refund? I expected the rifle to be repaired😬

They never offered to fix it even after admitting that the rifle was in fact defective, my only choices were to get the defective rifle back or get a refund suffering a 15% restocking charge, I chose the latter and as far as I'm concerned that rotten company bought me for $32.85 what a horrible company.

The person first said there was nothing wrong with the rifle and wanted to send it back to me, the "refund" happened almost immediately while my buddy was sitting at the table with me minutes after I said I wanted a refund rather than get the same rifle back, they made no offer to repair the rifle ever!. I don't want to put any more effort into this post other than to say Hatsan is a garbage dump of a company and I hope they go out of business

[H95Kidd]

Wes, that is very unfortunate what happened in your case, and I can see that you're perturbed. Very understandable. It is a fact that everyone seems to have a different outcome with Hatsan, dependent on the rifle/product, the individual(s) involved with your case, the technician doing the work, and exactly what the issues are. Thing is, we usually only hear about the BAD experiences with Hatsan. A year or so ago, I was nearly in your camp (ready to write them off permanently because of MY problem with a 95 Vortex)) regarding Hatsan, but they eventually came through for me in a big and very fair way. Go figure... So I ended up being completely satisfied. So I don't know exactly WHAT to say/think about your individual situation. I sincerely hope that they (Hatsan) will reconsider and make things right with you. Good customer service is the "heart" of a great company, so I do hope they take care of you.

[Ike the GSD]

Wes, that is very unfortunate what happened in your case, and I can see that you're perturbed. Very understandable. It is a fact that everyone seems to have a different outcome with Hatsan, dependent on the rifle/product, the individual(s) involved with your case, the technician doing the work, and exactly what the issues are. Thing is, we usually only hear about the BAD experiences with Hatsan. A year or so ago, I was nearly in your camp (ready to write them off permanently because of MY problem with a 95 Vortex)) regarding Hatsan, but they eventually came through for me in a big and very fair way. Go figure... So I ended up being completely satisfied. So I don't know exactly WHAT to say/think about your individual situation. I sincerely hope that they (Hatsan) will reconsider and make things right with you. Good customer service is the "heart" of a great company, so I do hope they take care of you.

"Thing is, we usually only hear about the BAD experiences with Hatsan. "  Maybe we hear more of the bad experiences with Hatsan because they're more frequent than the good ones? LOL! What's really a shame is I liked the rifle and I wanted it fixed, it cost me $28.00 shipping to send it back for repair, what's really strange is the technician told Hadden that there was in fact something wrong with the barrel yet this person didn't give me the option to have it repaired and they were unwilling to send me a different rifle on top of it? Hadden didn't reveal that there had been a "miscommunication" with the technician until after he/she had already completed the refund minus the 15% restocking fee?

[mikeyb]

... Maybe we hear more of the bad experiences with Hatsan because they're more frequent than the good ones?...

Unfortunate service experience and I understand your frustration.

Regarding the "squeaky wheel get the grease" I'm certain we hear about the bad experiences FAR MORE than the good ones. My own experience with Hatsan USA customer service is mostly good (10:1) with ~20 contacts and only a couple minor errors in communication. I suspect the happy:sad customer ratio for their air guns is at least 100:1 or better.

NOT the best customer satisfaction in the industry certainly, but also not the worst. I've had similar airgun issues with Crosman, Beeman, Gamo, and Umarex.

Your bad experience sounds familiar and is a valid reason for you to boycott buying any more Hatsan products. However, don't be surprised when folks that had better experiences don't join your boycott.

I've stated it many times but will repeat here again. I am a big fan of Hatsan rifles. They can be a great value if the buyer is willing and able to void warranty service and perform simple repairs and tuning work.

Folks that want a great shooting rifle right out of the box and are unable or unwilling to perform their own service work should NOT buy a Hatsan. There ARE great shooting Hatsan rifles right from the box, but the probability of getting a rifle that needs some amount of work to preform as it should is IME about 50%.

That's a tradeoff I am willing to make for getting an air rifle much cheaper than similar competitive offerings.

Most of that is NOT on HatsanUSA as they are just the USA distribution warehouse (with service and support) for the Hatsan Turkey Factory. Much of the rework needed on MOST of MY Hatsan rifles was due to Factory defects (ineffective Factory QC).


Hope you have better luck on your next airgun acquisition.

If you are still looking for another magnum springer maybe the Gamo (LaborDay free ship coupon SUMMERFS2495)
https://gamousa.com/product/hunter-extreme-utimate-kit-25/
could work? If service is needed for that rifle you should post the outcome for comparison to your Hatsan experience.

[Ike the GSD]

... Maybe we hear more of the bad experiences with Hatsan because they're more frequent than the good ones?...

Unfortunate service experience and I understand your frustration.

Regarding the "squeaky wheel get the grease" I'm certain we hear about the bad experiences FAR MORE than the good ones. My own experience with Hatsan USA customer service is mostly good (10:1) with ~20 contacts and only a couple minor errors in communication. I suspect the happy:sad customer ratio for their air guns is at least 100:1 or better.

NOT the best customer satisfaction in the industry certainly, but also not the worst. I've had similar airgun issues with Crosman, Beeman, Gamo, and Umarex.

Your bad experience sounds familiar and is a valid reason for you to boycott buying any more Hatsan products. However, don't be surprised when folks that had better experiences don't join your boycott.

I've stated it many times but will repeat here again. I am a big fan of Hatsan rifles. They can be a great value if the buyer is willing and able to void warranty service and perform simple repairs and tuning work.

Folks that want a great shooting rifle right out of the box and are unable or unwilling to perform their own service work should NOT buy a Hatsan. There ARE great shooting Hatsan rifles right from the box, but the probability of getting a rifle that needs some amount of work to preform as it should is IME about 50%.

That's a tradeoff I am willing to make for getting an air rifle much cheaper than similar competitive offerings.

Most of that is NOT on HatsanUSA as they are just the USA distribution warehouse (with service and support) for the Hatsan Turkey Factory. Much of the rework needed on MOST of MY Hatsan rifles was due to Factory defects (ineffective Factory QC).


Hope you have better luck on your next airgun acquisition.

If you are still looking for another magnum springer maybe the Gamo (LaborDay free ship coupon SUMMERFS2495)
https://gamousa.com/product/hunter-extreme-utimate-kit-25/
could work? If service is needed for that rifle you should post the outcome for comparison to your Hatsan experience.

I bought the rifle brand new from their website and they refused to repair it and refused to exchange it for another rifle this after owning the rifle for a grand total of nine days! They lied about my wanting to return the rifle thus charging me a 15% restocking fee, they lied to me about them not finding anything wrong with the rifle, owing up to the fact that there indeed was something wrong with the rifle but only AFTER refunding my money minus their 15% restocking fee. The RMA form clearly states NOT to send optics with a rifle when returning it for service/repair! I had no intentions of returning the rifle I wanted it fixed, which apparently they were incapabe of doing and they were unwilling to exchange the rifle on top of it! In regards to your satisfied to unsatisfied ratio I think you're being quite optimistic. This forum is filled with posts similar to mine when dealing with this company.

[mikeyb]

It is difficult to fully understand what really happened here because some details are unknown. Without the actual rifle in-hand I can only guess.

I'm GUESSING HatsanUSA may have found your breech-block dimensions were too narrow or the forks too wide (Turkish factory QC fail?) for the normal pivot washers. They would not try to fabricate custom washers. A barrel or tube swap is likely an unapproved repair task... assuming they even HAD those assemblies in stock. Remember, the FACTORY is in Turkey and HatsanUSA is just the regional distributor with a small service staff. They should certainly stock consumable parts, like seals and springs, along with some breakables like front and rear sights. Stocking other new parts would be an unnecessary cost.

Their only remaining options are a partial refund (missing items) or a whole replacement rifle. If no replacement rifles were available at that time they would likely process as a partial refund. Communication could have gone better but I suspect the small service staff is overworked and underpaid.

Cost for shipping air rifles back and forth for service can add up. Not that significant if one already paid $600+ for a high quality air rifle. Spending the same on a sub $200 rifle and adding repair-tech time would be an unwise business practice (for HatsanUSA).

There is a risk sending ANY air rifle to ANY manufacturer for repair service IF you LOVED a particular rifle (good barrel, pretty stock, whatever...) and only wanted it repaired. In MANY cases a manufacturer will simply return a DIFFERENT rifle (better or worse) and put your return on the "to-be-repaired-later" pile or more likely the "parts" or "scrap recycling" pile.

A few years back I had a conversation with a Crosman employee who stated most "repairs" were simply replacement rifles and the actual returns for service were usually scrapped. MUCH cheaper for them than the cost of repair labor. The employee described LARGE recycling piles of barrels, actions, and stocks from returns for service. Since I like to do my own rifle repair my mental image of large piles of mostly good airgun parts going to scrap or recycle made me SAD :-(

Initially you really did like the rifle and the primary issue was perceived velocity not up to advertised specs. Please DON'T rely on velocity specs as FPE is the better metric for springers. The 27 FPE for a particular pellet WAS a little low for that particular powerplant and may (or may not) have gone up a 1-2 fpe after a couple tins break-in. I've had to shoot up to 5-6 different pellets to find one or two a rifle would shoot well (FPE and accuracy). Your rifle might have been closer to the expected FPE with another pellet... or maybe not?

There are some small tuning tricks that can add a little FPE, but no guarantees you would like the results.

I'm not just one-sided all positive Hatsan fanboy. Having worked on and shot approximately 80 Hatsan breakbarrels I have not had a single one that I could not repair. Some only needed a new seal while others needed a little more effort. Of nine of their PCP rifles I have not had a "bad" one yet... no repairs needed.  Their airguns can be crudely made with unimpressive factory QC, but their prices ARE low. I'm also NOT a fan of their Vortex Air Springs. IMO the Vortex is poorly engineered and a failure prone part that I try to avoid.

On the surface it seems you had a bad HatsanUSA Service experience. Likely a one & done negative experience for you that has sadly created another Hastan hater :-(
That is unfortunate but it is good to post your experience here for others to read.

[Blowpipe Sam]

My experiences with Hatsan USA CS have been mostly positive.  I have never asked them to do anything particularly complicated though.  I have received two replacement trigger blades under warranty and I have purchased a number of seals, springs, and screws from their parts department.  Not without some miscommunication and not entirely smoothly.  IMO I would not trust Hatsan USA's CS to accomplish anything more complicated than shipping replacement parts. 

[Ike the GSD]

mikeyb>"It is difficult to fully understand what really happened here because some details are unknown. Without the actual rifle in-hand I can only guess." I'm not really sure what's so "difficult" to fully understand, they lied to me they sold me a defective rifle and refused to fix it and charged me a restocking fee of 15% before even discussing other options, the RMA form as I've made abundantly clear states NOT TO SHIP OPTICS WITH RIFLES SENT IN FOR REPAIR, the reason there weren't any accessories with the rifle I shipped back is BECAUSE I FOLLOWED WHAT THEIR REPAIR FORM TOLD ME TO DO🤷‍♂️ and they lied to me about the rifle not having anything wrong with it<<< It's the deceptive nature for which these people handled things that I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER HATSAN. The rifle had excessive side to side play that washers weren't going to fix, it's my opinion that they drilled the hole for the pivot pin too large and sticking thicker shims in there would be a poor method of repair.