Repairing or converting springs in Hatsan Edge/Striker Rifles

[mikeyb]

Awhile back I made an NP conversion for one of my Edge 22 cal rifles so I sent the same parts to GTA Member Tom to repair his recently failed rifle (Striker or Edge = same rifle, different stock). I also sent some Vortex size o-rings if he wants to attempt a Vortex re-seal and a better-fit spring guide if he wants to try a Hatsan coil spring.

I estimated there might be a slight drop in rated muzzle energy before my NP conversion but felt that was no problem. I just wanted it to be "ballpark" normal. My chronograph results were  14.3 grain CPHP @ ~795fps

(grain-weight x velocity-fps^squared) / conversion-factor = MEft-lbs
(14.3 x 795^2) / 450240 = 20 ft-lbs

I was pleasantly surprised by the actual results!
That's close to where Hatsan specs the rifle should be :

Max Velocity* – Lead Pellets- .177 cal – 1100 FPS, .22 cal – 800 FPS, .25 cal – 700 FPS
Max Muzzle Energy* – .177 cal – 20 FPE, .22 cal – 21 FPE, .25 cal – 24 FPE

I suspect Tom's Vortex was weak or "fading" well before the complete failure. The conversion back to normal probably seems like a boost over spec. The real test will be chronograph data.
  Do you have access to a chronograph Tom?

My Hatsan 25 caliber rifles in the 27mm id comp tube family (Edge/Striker/Mod95/Mod85/Mod87) do tend to "breathe" better and usually shoot in the 20-22 fpe range. My 177s in that family shoot mostly in the 16-18 fpe range.

A replacement coil spring for the Edge/Striker is ~$20 not including S&H from Hatsan... IF they have any in stock. A replacement Vortex probably double that or more. When I ordered a bunch of coil springs, NP1s, NP2s, baffles, triggers, piston & breech seals from Crosman the NPs were ~$10 each and shipping for the whole order was $4. Now THAT'S a bargain! IMO Crosman has the best parts availability and lowest cost.

I recently converted an Edge to use a Crosman coil spring... just because I WANTED to try it.  The Crosman springs are slightly smaller than the Hatsan springs but were available for $6 each. I made a custom spring guide and a spacer to get proper preload (~1.5"). Spring is now close to coil bound at full compression.

Chrono results for that rifle were 14.3 grain @ 765fps.
(14.3 x 765^2) / 450240 = 18.6 ft-lbs
That worked better than I expected. There might be room for a little more preload/fpe, but the rifle shoots like new and the shot cycle is a nice firm THUMP ... so I consider it DONE!

IMO all these simple ~$100 mechanical/pneumatic system rifles (springers) are +/-10% as manufactured. To maintain the low cost high precision parts are simply NOT USED. There is also minimal (probably zero) part measurement/selection during manufacturing. Certainly a basic parts check (QA test) on a batch SAMPLE when the parts arrive at the factory, but no costly sorting/selection after that.

Hatsan likely specs the HIGH limit for best advertising so Hatsan spec +0%/-20% seems likely.

IMO the REAL Hatsan specs should be:

Max Velocity* – Lead Pellets- .177 cal – 1100 FPS, .22 cal – 800 FPS, .25 cal – 700 FPS
Max Muzzle Energy* – .177 cal – 16-20 FPE, .22 cal – 17-21 FPE, .25 cal – 19-24 FPE

If you have one of these Hatsans and it is shooting within the modified specs above, I'd say it is functioning normally.

I'll be adding some photos and links later. The goal here is to have an informational thread which may help folks repair/restore their bargain Hatsan springers back to factory-normal operation.

Also hoping Tom can add some chronograph results of his repair/conversion to this thread :-)

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Hi Michael.

I do not own a chronograph so I cannot share chronograph results.

I was comparing the Edge to my Hatsan Vortex Striker and my Crosman NP Redtail.

The 25cal Edge with the the Crosman NP gas piston in it is sighted in at 25 yards.
It is shooting 43.2 gr Eunjin pointed pellets out to 35 yards with no appreciable drop.


Best Wishes - Tom

[mikeyb]

Nothing really new. Just adding some quick links and refreshing the post.


Some data on Vortex Air springs and other manufacturers Gas springs...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=196304.40

Data corrections and some info on Hatsan Edge conversion to NP...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=196304.msg156286955#msg156286955

Some Vortex Air springs don't have or no longer have bleed screws...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=196304.msg156290551#msg156290551

Type2 Vortex with no bleed screw and drastic way to depressurize...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186696.msg156143583#msg156143583

O-rings in some Vortex Air spring models...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=204885.msg156399374#msg156399374
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=204885.msg156421749#msg156421749

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Hi All.

As long as Michael is updating I thought I would too.

The Crosman NP gas spring conversion that Mikeyb supplied me for my Hatsan Edge is still working great.
Accuracy is spot on with both the 22cal barrel and the 25cal barrel that I have for this gun.
I also have a Hatsan Vortex Striker that is the same age as the Edge. The Striker is still shooting strong.
When the Vortex gas spring failed in the Edge, it had been subjected to sub zero temperatures for well over 24 hours.
It was cocked and loaded out in my garage last winter, all set for a quick shot of opportunity.
I was trying to take out a cottontail rabbit that had destroyed some of my wife's flowers during the previous growing season.
I did not have the garage furnace running so it was really cold in the garage, maybe as low as -10F as it was -25F outside.
When I pulled the failed Vortex gas spring it still had some air in it but not enough to move a pellet down the barrel.
I suspect that gas spring seals get really hard when they get that cold.
If that is true then they could leak and fail in those temperatures.
From now on I will use only my coil spring guns in really cold weather.


Best Wishes - Tom

[Snatchcan]

Hi All.

As long as Michael is updating I thought I would too.

The Crosman NP gas spring conversion that Mikeyb supplied me for my Hatsan Edge is still working great.
Accuracy is spot on with both the 22cal barrel and the 25cal barrel that I have for this gun.
I also have a Hatsan Vortex Striker that is the same age as the Edge. The Striker is still shooting strong.
When the Vortex gas spring failed in the Edge, it had been subjected to sub zero temperatures for well over 24 hours.
It was cocked and loaded out in my garage last winter, all set for a quick shot of opportunity.
I was trying to take out a cottontail rabbit that had destroyed some of my wife's flowers during the previous growing season.
I did not have the garage furnace running so it was really cold in the garage, maybe as low as -10F as it was -25F outside.
When I pulled the failed Vortex gas spring it still had some air in it but not enough to move a pellet down the barrel.
I suspect that gas spring seals get really hard when they get that cold.
If that is true then they could leak and fail in those temperatures.
From now on I will use only my coil spring guns in really cold weather.


Best Wishes - Tom

I had the same thing happened with my NP Benji several years ago. I was shooting it outside while the temps were well below zero and about the 20th shot the pellet hit about 4 feet low. When I went to cock it again there was almost no resistance. After it warmed up to room temperature, it was slinging pellets at Red Ryder speeds and eventually just quit.

[Ronno6]

Do the NP rams hold up better than the Vortex units?
They are not rebuildable nor adjustable, but are VERY inexpensive....

I have converted several Hatsans to NP and they work great.
I am attempting to rebuild a Type 1 now for the heck of it, but I am curious about the longevity differences.

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Hi All.

As long as Michael is updating I thought I would too.

The Crosman NP gas spring conversion that Mikeyb supplied me for my Hatsan Edge is still working great.
Accuracy is spot on with both the 22cal barrel and the 25cal barrel that I have for this gun.
I also have a Hatsan Vortex Striker that is the same age as the Edge. The Striker is still shooting strong.
When the Vortex gas spring failed in the Edge, it had been subjected to sub zero temperatures for well over 24 hours.
It was cocked and loaded out in my garage last winter, all set for a quick shot of opportunity.
I was trying to take out a cottontail rabbit that had destroyed some of my wife's flowers during the previous growing season.
I did not have the garage furnace running so it was really cold in the garage, maybe as low as -10F as it was -25F outside.
When I pulled the failed Vortex gas spring it still had some air in it but not enough to move a pellet down the barrel.
I suspect that gas spring seals get really hard when they get that cold.
If that is true then they could leak and fail in those temperatures.
From now on I will use only my coil spring guns in really cold weather.


Best Wishes - Tom

I had the same thing happened with my NP Benji several years ago. I was shooting it outside while the temps were well below zero and about the 20th shot the pellet hit about 4 feet low. When I went to cock it again there was almost no resistance. After it warmed up to room temperature, it was slinging pellets at Red Ryder speeds and eventually just quit.

Hi Lucas.

So much for the advertisement that gas springs the best in cold weather.
Not... the Real Cold weather...thats for sure.

Best Wishes - Tom

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Do the NP rams hold up better than the Vortex units?
They are not rebuildable nor adjustable, but are VERY inexpensive....

I have converted several Hatsans to NP and they work great.
I am attempting to rebuild a Type 1 now for the heck of it, but I am curious about the longevity differences.

Gee Ron, I really don't know ?
This was my first NP conversion and my first Vortex Type 1 gas spring failure.
The Type 1 gas spring that came out of the Edge did not have a bleed screw so it was not adjustable either.
The Striker that I have was bought in the Fall of 2016 (7 years old) and it is still shooting at full power.
The Crosman Summit Ranger that I have was bought in 2017 so it is six years old and is still Ok.



I used to have a 117.cal Crosman Vantage and a 22cal Benjamin Trail NPXL 1100.
I used them both in the really cold weather.
I had the Vantage a little over 10 years and it held up really well.
The Benjamin was an early 1st Generation rifle, so it was quite old too, maybe 12 to 13 years old.
I bought the Benjamin used thru the GTA Classifieds in 2017.
The guy that I bought the Benjamin from got it just as soon as that model hit the market.
Maybe somebody knows what year Crosman came out with them.
Before that they sold a Super Streak that had a spring in it.
Both rifle were shooting strong when I sold them to buddyb about 2 years ago.
He has since sold them and got into PCP's but I don't think he had any trouble with them, leastwise not with the gas springs.


Best Wishes - Tom

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

OK, I took my Type 1 gas piston apart to check things out.

For those who do not know.
The front brass cap is 18mm but real tight. Best not to monkey with that end. Brass deforms real easy.
Disassembly from the rear is the best option.
The rear cap comes apart easily.
The rear cap is slotted so that... is how it can be bled.
I was able to bleed the remaining air out, albeit not precisely. 
The o-rings in the brass cap do not look too tough to replace.
The others are just slip on.
In my working life I was a Repair Machinist in a hydraulics factory.
I have done air cylinders and hydraulic cylinders that were a lot harder that this one.
Mikeyb sent me the o-rings to rebuild this one.
I do not have the correct fill probe or high psi air pump though.

Here is some pictures of my Type 1 Gas piston/spring

[Ronno6]

Do the NP rams hold up better than the Vortex units?
They are not rebuildable nor adjustable, but are VERY inexpensive....

I have converted several Hatsans to NP and they work great.
I am attempting to rebuild a Type 1 now for the heck of it, but I am curious about the longevity differences.

I'm hopin' that mikeyb will chime in...........

[Snatchcan]

Hi All.

As long as Michael is updating I thought I would too.

The Crosman NP gas spring conversion that Mikeyb supplied me for my Hatsan Edge is still working great.
Accuracy is spot on with both the 22cal barrel and the 25cal barrel that I have for this gun.
I also have a Hatsan Vortex Striker that is the same age as the Edge. The Striker is still shooting strong.
When the Vortex gas spring failed in the Edge, it had been subjected to sub zero temperatures for well over 24 hours.
It was cocked and loaded out in my garage last winter, all set for a quick shot of opportunity.
I was trying to take out a cottontail rabbit that had destroyed some of my wife's flowers during the previous growing season.
I did not have the garage furnace running so it was really cold in the garage, maybe as low as -10F as it was -25F outside.
When I pulled the failed Vortex gas spring it still had some air in it but not enough to move a pellet down the barrel.
I suspect that gas spring seals get really hard when they get that cold.
If that is true then they could leak and fail in those temperatures.
From now on I will use only my coil spring guns in really cold weather.


Best Wishes - Tom

I had the same thing happened with my NP Benji several years ago. I was shooting it outside while the temps were well below zero and about the 20th shot the pellet hit about 4 feet low. When I went to cock it again there was almost no resistance. After it warmed up to room temperature, it was slinging pellets at Red Ryder speeds and eventually just quit.

Hi Lucas.

So much for the advertisement that gas springs the best in cold weather.
Not... the Real Cold weather...thats for sure.

Best Wishes - Tom

To be fair I believe it was -20 F or just a touch colder. It was a hellatious winter. Over 30 days straight it did not get above zero. I really should have known better, screen door shocks and trunk shocks barely work when it's that cold, I wasn't exactly surprised when it quit working. It was more of a "that was stupid" moment.

[Ronno6]

I went ahead and converted my latest 95Vortex  to an NP2 ram.
I made a delrin part to replace the end cap yoke on the Vortex Type 1 ram and center the NP2.
I actually succeeded this time!

I may replace the O-rings in the original ram just so I can say that I done it....

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

I went ahead and converted my latest 95Vortex  to an NP2 ram.
I made a delrin part to replace the end cap yoke on the Vortex Type 1 ram and center the NP2.
I actually succeeded this time!

I may replace the O-rings in the original ram just so I can say that I done it....

Good for you Ron.

Mikeyb is gone a lot.... but I'm sure he will chime in at some point.


 Best Wishes - Tom

[mikeyb]

I went ahead and converted my latest 95Vortex  to an NP2 ram.
I made a delrin part to replace the end cap yoke on the Vortex Type 1 ram and center the NP2.
I actually succeeded this time!

I may replace the O-rings in the original ram just so I can say that I done it....

Good for you Ron.

Mikeyb is gone a lot.... but I'm sure he will chime in at some point.


 Best Wishes - Tom

No need really, you guys seem to be doing excellent work all on your own :-)
I don't have a huge data set on Vortex verses NP reliability so all I can do is comment on what I have. Out of a couple dozen Gas spring(TNT, NP1,NP2) rifles, a couple dozen Vortex rifles, and a larger number of coil spring rifles, I have had "0" coil spring failures, "0" gas spring failures, and "2" Vortex failures. The "0"s have spoiled me so I prefer to NOT buy any more Vortex rifles. When they work they are fine rifles but I judge coil spring and gas spring rifles to be more reliable.

[Ronno6]

All the failed Vortex rams I have repaired have VERY brittle gland O-rings.......Hatsan purchasing musta got a real deal on them....
I have to think that new 90 durometer O-rings will greatly improve the longevity of the system,

[Ronno6]

After pretty easily replacing the gland O-rings in 2 Vortex rams, ir has become a difficult operation......
Gotta get a leg up on it.....

Grooves are clean, just pig-headed O-rings ??

[Ronno6]

After pretty easily replacing the gland O-rings in 2 Vortex rams, ir has become a difficult operation......
Gotta get a leg up on it.....

Grooves are clean, just pig-headed O-rings ??

Pretty easy....when the proper size O-rings are used.

Somehow I mistook some O-rings that I had purchased as possible breech seals for Ruger AHEII rifles..
They aer a 2.5mm cross section...no wonder they didn't fit in the 2mm groove.......DOH !!

[mikeyb]

I know, old thread. I think still relevant since folks are still posting about leaky Vortex air springs and this thread has multiple ideas/links to repair/replace springs in those rifles.

...

I recently converted an Edge to use a Crosman coil spring... just because I WANTED to try it.  The Crosman springs are slightly smaller than the Hatsan springs but were available for $6 each. I made a custom spring guide and a spacer to get proper preload (~1.5"). Spring is now close to coil bound at full compression.

Chrono results for that rifle were 14.3 grain @ 765fps.
(14.3 x 765^2) / 450240 = 18.6 ft-lbs
That worked better than I expected. There might be room for a little more preload/fpe, but the rifle shoots like new and the shot cycle is a nice firm THUMP ... so I consider it DONE!

...

Just had that Hatsan Edge out for a little exercise and feeding. It was shooting well... good accuracy and pleasingly snappy shot cycle. No indications (odor or smoke wisps) of dieseling. A solid 18+ fpe ME with Excite Hammer 14.66gr pellets. I could not find any photos in my repair notes so I decided to open the rifle up for a quick inspection of the custom guide and spacer made to use the standard Crosman(B19) coil spring in the Hatsan Edge rifle.



Steel drill rod guide + TIG welded nut as a guide base + short piece of steel plumbing pipe as a spring preload spacer. Fits the Crosman coil spring nice and snug before preload. Still some visible stringy threads of the tacky marine grease I prefer to paint on my coil springs.

Cheers :-)