GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Fightinggoat on December 03, 2018, 09:26:54 AM
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Looking to add a .177 springer to the arsenal, I enjoy shooting my sons xs-12 and the ammo is both cheap and plentiful, just want a full size stock and more power.
Already have a D52 .22, xs-28 .25, Benjamin Prowler .22, and a 392 pumper.
So this won't be for hunting or anything more than informal hole punching at close range. I do however want a powerful rifle, accuracy is important, but this is more for fun and power is fun.
Doesn't have to be superb out of the box, I plan on doing a home tune on anything I buy anyway as I enjoy tinkering, including the trigger. My sons XS-12 trigger left much to be desired, but after cleaning up some things inside, it breaks nice and clean and rivals some of my centerfire rifles.
I do want 800-1000fps with lead, not trying to spend much on a casual plinker that I plan on tearing into and experimenting with.
Say under $175, prefer $100-150.
Some candidates so far
1. Hatsan 95
2. Hatsan 87 or 85? (A little confusing as they don't give a description and differences aren't obvious)
3. Kral No.1
4. Hatsan Stryker 1000 or Edge
5. Beeman RS-2
6. Ruger Airhawk or variants
7. XS-25
8. Winchester/Daisy something
What do you know about the above choices that can help me decide? Do you have any other suggestions that I am overlooking?
I missed the boat on the Cabelas 34 deal, oh well, that would have been a no brainer.
I can't find any reviews on the Kral No.1, PA has them on clearance for $70, looks good but know nothing about them, any info anyone?
Obviously Hatsan is a real contender hear and with so many models listing similar specs it's hard to pick one, I would want a 125 in .177 same as I wouldn't want a D350 in .177 lol.
Realistically which model should I be focused on here, I suspect it's the 95?
Ruger Airhawk or whichever Ruger is currently in season is another strong contender, they look nice, are easy to find, and check many of my boxes.
I don't need a scope or bundle with accessories, I have optics I can use but will probably keep using the irons for the short ranges I will be using it for.
Want to stay with .177, I don't have a full size .177 and that's the whole reason for this acquisition.
I demand minute of tin can accuracy and power to spare, all for a large budget of $150. Any takers?
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Of the guns listed Id probably try a Hatsan 95 or Striker. They respond well to tunes. My 95 has smoothed out alot and the trigger is nice and predictable. Only beef is that the stroke feels long.
If it were me I'd probably pick up a Walther Terrus or BSA Comet or Meteor The BSAs have Gamo compression tubes and BSA barrels. My Comet is as accurate my HW30 but with a lot more power. They can be twanging at first, you'll need to set the spring and put some tar on it or get a spring guide made. I think the Terrus is still on sale and within your price range at aoa. Best of luck.
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For a cheap pinker I,m pretty happy with my crosman Optimus and with the longer trigger adjustment screw I like the trigger better than the one in my 95 Hatsan. I also prefer the slimmer stock of the Optimus.
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I have a few on your list but out of all on the list I would absolutely take the Ruger Airhawk because of the availability of parts. Tune kits, spring, to aftermarket triggers or do your own trigger. They are very accurate, full size stock. The full power spring is a little harsh. My best out of my three Airhawks shoots 690 FPS. One shoots 525 which is my main in house gun. My full power I just put in a stock spring shooting 946 FPS. It is very hold sensitive. They say a Vortek PG2 (Diana 34/Ruger Air Hawk/BlackHawk Tune Kit) smooths it out lots which I may try someday. CHEERS!
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Thru Hatsan USA you can get either a new Hatsan 85 Sniper Vortex with a Camo Stock
or a new Dominator Spring 200S Carbine.
Both are offered in 117cal and either one sells for $159.99
Both are new guns and not refurbished and both come with full warranty
Here is their link if you are interested:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjm0oai-IPfAhVGT6wKHVhdBBEQFjAAegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhatsanusa.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw0D3tAmIKkHmSqwJDX-Yx5b (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjm0oai-IPfAhVGT6wKHVhdBBEQFjAAegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhatsanusa.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw0D3tAmIKkHmSqwJDX-Yx5b)
Best Wishes & Good Luck in Your Search - Tom
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I have both an 87 Vortex QE .177 and a Webley Tomahawk .177 which, except for cosmetic differences, is a Model 95. Both shoot a touch over 900 fps depending on the pellets used, can be worked on easily and the Quattro triggers with a few simple tweaks can be made way better than out of the box and will be better than the ones in the Edge/Striker/1000X (Ihave a couple Edge's and a 1000X, just not in .177). There's plenty of info here on tweaking both triggers and rifles if any of them are what you finally decide on. You'll also get a better stock with either the 87 or 95 as the Striker synthetic stocks have a reputation for breaking at the forearm screws.
Since you plan on tinkering anyway, the 87 can be had as a refurb for $130 plus $5 shipping at HatsanUSA:
https://hatsanusa.com/collections/parts-and-refurb-buys/products/_refurbished-mod-87-vortex-quietenergy
The 95 springer refurb can be had for $100:
https://hatsanusa.com/collections/parts-and-refurb-buys/products/mod-95-spring-combo-refurbished
The Striker refurb can be had for $70:
https://hatsanusa.com/collections/parts-and-refurb-buys/products/_refurbished-striker-spring
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The XS-25 SFB is $85 on Flying Dragon Air Rifles. You could also get a fixed barrel XS46U for $140.
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=59 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=59)
Thanks,
Taso
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The XS-25, Ruger Air Hawk, and Ruger Black Hawk are all essentially the same gun - clones of the Diana 34. If you're in no rush you MAY see some super deals on the 34 again. There were three rounds of the sales last summer. You could also give the Diana 250 consideration. It's based off the Chinese B19 but supposedly with some improvements to compensate for the inherent problems with that platform.
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Thanks for all the info everyone, while not in a rush I am looking to pick one for my Christmas list, so enough time to order it before then is required.
I have been eyeing the bargains at hatsan USA for a week or so, they look like what I am wanting, but having never handled one in person I just don't know.
So many similarities in all the guns I listed at around the same price point, makes for a hard decision when buying sight unseen.
I just want a good solid platform and a strong/powerful power plant to start with, everything else should be fun to tweak to my liking.
Anyone know about that beeman rs2 or the kral no.1?
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Crosman has the .177cal Optimus wood-n-steel springer on sale now for $59.99. I bought one sans scope (hence the lower price) for my brother. already have a scope for it. Rated 1200FPS with alloy pellets. 1000-1100 with lead in my experience. Darn good rifle with the power of the Striker 1000's (I have the .22 Striker 1000x), but about 1.5lbs lighter. Darn accurate too. Some of us are fairly certain that it's based on the old Quest?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/PLAia8.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmPLAia8j)
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For what it might be worth, my 87 QE .177 shoots H&N Sniper Mediums at 910 fps, R10 Match Heavies at 908 fps, H&N FTT's at 911 fps and RWS Superdomes at 898 fps.
My Tomahawk .177 springer which, although not made any more, is the same power plant as the 95 and shoots the Snipers at 952 fps, the R10 Match at 975 fps, the FTT's at 923 fps and the Superdomes at 963 fps so the 95 should be a close match to it.
Your mileage may vary but both rifles are very accurate with those 4 pellets and minute of squirrel accurate (aka head shot accurate) out to the 30 yards or so I shoot, so tin cans should be no problem...lol
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That's about what the Optimus .177 will do. My son hit the bull's eye his first time @ 15yds with his Optimus .22. That's all I dared around this no shoot anything burg. With the same power as the Striker 1000's/Edge springers, it should be good to about 50yds.
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I will look into the optimus, I know crosman has been rifles that fit the bill, but growing up the only airguns I had to chose from were crosman and daisy, wanted to try something new I haven't had before.
It's somewhat important that the trigger can be modified to improve weight and creep, most are, but some like my old daisy 25 I think, made by EL Gamo in the 1980s, is one that I can't do much with, it's designed in a way that's super simple but doesn't lend itself to mods. The trigger directly engages the piston and holds the full weight like a bear trap.
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For a sub $200 springer I would go for any Hatsan Vortex gasram springer I could get for that money !
They are powerful, accurate, well build, have a good trigger and their wooden stocks are gorgeous !
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I’d stick with a crosman or Benjamin . Easier to get parts . Although the Hatsan Quattro trigger is in league of its own in comparison to the others listed . The only springer I have left since switching to PCP is a Hatsan 135 in .22 cal that’s how much I like the triggers .
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I'd take an Optimus for $59. It's worth at least that much, for sure.
Rather have the Optimus than the Winchester 1100SS for sure.
Most of the shortcomings of the Optimus are easy and cheap to fix.
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Oh, and for Brian- from the choices you listed, I'd go with the XS25. Ask Mike if you could get just the trigger tune only, and pay for that. Saves you some money, since you can do most of the rest on your own.
Or, just hold out on the next 34 sale.
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Brian.....Bud's Gun Shop has a 117cal Crosman Vantage NP on sale for $90. I am not sure about the shipping charges.
I have had mine for about 8 years now and it is still shooting strong.
It is essentially the Optimus but with a Nitro Gas Ram instead of a Spring.
I am not sure of your preference about power plants.
You may wish to fix the trigger with a screw swap, I did.
Best Wishes - Tom
Edit : They also have the Optimus for $102.....Both guns come with a cheap combo scope.
Here is the link to Bud's Gun Shop if you are interested.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwja-PSJ4ITfAhVOQq0KHQlUAD0QFjAAegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.budsgunshop.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct_info.php%2Fproducts_id%2F714015043%2FAccessories%2FAir%2BGuns%2FCROSMAN%2BVANTAGE%2BNP%2B.177%2BW%252FSCP%2BWOOD&usg=AOvVaw2zEl5OA1kUvvxJCXjcFoNm (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwja-PSJ4ITfAhVOQq0KHQlUAD0QFjAAegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.budsgunshop.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct_info.php%2Fproducts_id%2F714015043%2FAccessories%2FAir%2BGuns%2FCROSMAN%2BVANTAGE%2BNP%2B.177%2BW%252FSCP%2BWOOD&usg=AOvVaw2zEl5OA1kUvvxJCXjcFoNm)
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The only gas piston gun I have is the Benjamin prowler, it's smooth and quiet, but feels harder to cock than than of my other rifles including a side lever Diana, or xs-28.
It's not so much how hard it is to cock but the way it feels to cock, seems to have peak resistance from start to finish, it's a chore in comparison to all the other springers I have shot.
A good spring gun is addicting to shoot and I even enjoy cocking the magnums, but I dislike cocking the prowler.
If it had a spring I would like it so much more as it's a very nice rifle otherwise and balances well.
I don't know if they all feel that way as I have no other gas piston experience I can recall except maybe a gamo or two several years back.
@Bryan, I can do the trigger work on the xs25, and even as good as mike is, I would still want to do it myself because I enjoy it.
There are just a couple trigger designs that don't lend them selves well to tuning, at least not that I can see, I don't know which guns have triggers designed that way and which don't.
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Well, the xs25 has the same trigger as the xs28m. You already have a good Mike Melick trigger to copy, it's a no brainer. Get an XS25 or a used t-05 34, and copy the modifications.
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I would look at the walther terrus if it were me. Never owned one but a friend does and he loves his.
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Also, the Ruger Air Magnum, Ruger Blackhawk, and Ruger Air Hawk have the same copy of the T-05. Lots of 350 and 34 clones out there, if you are mechanically inclined you could really make them shoot well.
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Walther Terrus Wood from Airguns of Arizona $149.95 as of this writing.
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If you can shoot a 800-1000fps Springer well. the crosman 1000x's are GREAT, powerful and accurate. stack pellets at 15 yards, ragged dime size hole groups at 25-30 yards. like mentioned the quest/summit/optimus/striker are great guns, exactly fit your bill.
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Out of your list I would go for the XS25 tuned. The Ruger branded springer I tried was the worst POS pellet rifle I have ever shot.
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Random dumb thought here but why not just convert the Prowler from a gas ram to a spring. Not sure what all would be involved but you wanna tear down and tinker, maybe go that route instead??
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Hatsan 125 spring piston .177 refurbished from Hatsan USA is $129 shoots 1000 fps ! Quattro trigger . If you can handle this beast it will take out any small games up to 50 yards !
https://hatsanusa.com/products/_refurbished-mod-125-spring
Good luck
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Out of your list I would go for the XS25 tuned. The Ruger branded springer I tried was the worst POS pellet rifle I have ever shot.
Ruger Air Magnum is a rebadged XS28M. Ruger Air Hawk/ Black Hawk are XS25 rebadged.
Capable of the same performance if the same work is done.
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Random dumb thought here but why not just convert the Prowler from a gas ram to a spring. Not sure what all would be involved but you wanna tear down and tinker, maybe go that route instead??
I agree. Look up the part numbers for the optimus, i bet they will drop right in.
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Ruger Airhawk.
It's at least a copy of a well made German gun, the RWS34. Replace the spring and seal and lube it well and it will be a decent shooter with a good trigger.
I started with one and hunted with it for a season.
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I'm very happy with my Titan .177
100 bucks for the gun and 30 for the gold trigger,
I had mine for many years and it's always been great, more powerful, more accurate, lighter and more quiet then my Diana 34 .177
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The XS-25 SFB is $85 on Flying Dragon Air Rifles. You could also get a fixed barrel XS46U for $140.
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=59 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=59)
Thanks,
I have since sold it, but the xs-25 I got from Mike at Flying Dragon was too notch.
Taso
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Gonna tinker with the prowler today and see what I can do, it's the only airguns I haven't taken apart yet, mostly because I haven't felt the need to, nothing to really lube or shim and it shoots like it's supposed to already.
Maybe I can put a little lube around some key frictions points and make the cocking stroke feel better. It does have a slight sticking feel to it near the bottom of the stroke and sounds dry.
A .177 barrel would be nice to have for it as well as a .22 barrel for the XS28M so I can shoot cheap ammo and not blow through all the pricier .25 cal pellets I have to mail order.
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Gonna tinker with the prowler today and see what I can do, it's the only airguns I haven't taken apart yet, mostly because I haven't felt the need to, nothing to really lube or shim and it shoots like it's supposed to already.
Maybe I can put a little lube around some key frictions points and make the cocking stroke feel better. It does have a slight sticking feel to it near the bottom of the stroke and sounds dry.
A .177 barrel would be nice to have for it as well as a .22 barrel for the XS28M so I can shoot cheap ammo and not blow through all the pricier .25 cal pellets I have to mail order.
Brian.....I have a gun set up with an extra barrel. You are right... that's a nice way to go. I have a Hatsan 85 Vortex Sniper with a 117cal Barrel and a 25cal barrel. I also have a Hatsan 85 Sniper with a spring piston that is disassembled that I keep as a parts gun.
Best Wishes - Tom
Here is a picture of my gun. Click the picture 1 or 2 times to enlarge the image.
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Here's the Prowler schematics and parts list for the .177...maybe call Crosman and see if they have one:
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Out of your list I would go for the XS25 tuned. The Ruger branded springer I tried was the worst POS pellet rifle I have ever shot.
I have to agree with you!
Out of the box they are god awful BUT if you are willing to put some time and money into them you will have a sweet shooter. After tons of work my air magnum is my best springer by far! Very consistent and accurate.
Last chrony test .22 cal shooting jsb 18.13. Avg 823 FPS 27fp sd 2.9 spread 8. 70 degrees at sea level.
10 shot string.
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Thanks for diagram.
Really leaning towards the Ruger for its price, look, and availability of parts.
Hatsan 125 is now on the table as well.
Gonna tear the prowler down in a minute and see what I can do with it.
Is the RAM the same length, weight, and balance as the XS-28M?
The power sounds good but would like it to be a little more compact, the .25 28M I recently got is very barrel heavy and long. Would prefer a shorter and lighter barrel on the same power plant and stock.
What can the Airhawk/Blackhawk guns realistically put out power wise, without buying a vortek kit at almost the same cost of the rifle?
Any known crosman/umarex/BAM springs drop in the Blackhawk to really up the power? I want to be right up against the sound barrier with medium weight average pellets. Accuracy not as important in this rifle as the fun factor and the smile on my sons face when I can make his little .177 pellets shatter on the heavy spinners like my .22/.25 guns do.
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Pretty much any tune kit that drops into the RWS 34 will also drop into the Ruger Blackhawk.
If you call Vortek and ask, they can send you the spring you want. I would bet that they already know exactly what dimensions a Blackhawk can take and how far you can push it. Vortek springs are around $20 typically, and shipping in an envelope is very cheap.
The Ruger Air Magnum, literally, is an XS28M in a synthetic stock with Ruger markings. I used to have one in .177 cal. It is a little heavier than the XS28M with it's slim wood stock. That XS28M that you now own, is the lightest magnum breakbarrel at this power level I have ever shot. Also the only one I kept longer than a few months. Probably my favorite of all the ubermag springers I have had.
The Hatsan 125 is another boat anchor. I used to have a Walther Talon Magnum (re-badged Hatsan 125). Very powerful, not as hold sensitive as you might assume once you have it running right. But out of the box, very very hold sensitive. It will for sure need a fresh aftermarket piston seal, probably shim to the breech seal, and of course to be cleaned up and lubed properly. Pretty much all springers benefit from that though, but especially the Hatsan 125 in my limited experience (only 1 rifle).
These ultra mag spring guns are all in the ballpark of 9 pounds and are all very barrel heavy due to the length of the comp tube and barrel. Especially in .177, you want that long barrel on a magnum. It needs that added length to achieve good power in .177. The larger the caliber, typically the better your performance with a shorter barrel.
A mid powered .177 rifle will achieve optimum performance with a shorter barrel.
If you are looking to find a handy mid sized springer and you like everything about your nitro piston gun except the nitro piston, then I think that is where you should take the project. Drop in the Optimus parts, chop the barrel, change the trigger adjustment screw, debur, lube tune. I would bet you can get all the parts needed from Crosman, including a fresh piston seal, for around $30 shipped. You just gotta look them up and wait for them to be delivered.
You might be able to tweak it as is and find what you are looking for.
If you would rather get another gun, the Ruger Blackhawk is a no brainer. It's cheap, looks good, full of potential. Takes pretty much any tune kit the RWS 34 will take.
Hope this helps.
Edit- Also, the Ruger Blackhawk in .177 will for sure push those .177 CPHP hard enough to fragment on the spinners. It's a 900+ fps air rifle. Maybe 950.
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Changing power plants in the Prowler seems a lot of trouble to me when you can get a Crosman Optimus for 100 bucks or less. A Crosman with a GRT trigger is hard to beat.
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The overall weight doesn't bother me, it's more the balance that I feel since I shoot different rifles regularly. Sounds like the RAM is off the list along with the other large magnums.
The Blackhawk is really sounding good right now, seems like the way to go for what I'm looking for
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A 48/52 in .177 might be hefty, but also probably has the right balance, and will push an 8 grain .177 to the max threshhold of accurate velocities. Just enough power/velocity that it might be better with 10 grains than 8 grains. Have seen some great deals on them lately under $200.
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Didn't mean to muddy the waters or make it any tougher... sorry hehe.
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It's a very good suggestion, I just want something different as I already have a 52 in .22. It's my favorite rifle, consistent as can be, it's perfectly balanced to point naturally when shouldered, the sight align themselves, it's more solid than many of my centerfire rifles, has that old world European feel of quality that only older guns possess, and the stock is one of if not the most beautiful stocks I have ever seen, so smooth and glossy but without that plastic laquer feel some glossy wood stock have, I nearly cried when I scratched it on my belt buckle while cocking it.
It's the one I would hate to part with the most out my collection. But wanting a rifle I don't cringe when my son wants to shoot it and bangs it on something accidentally (clumsy as can be) or one I can just set down while setting up targets without feeling like I need to roll out a red carpet first.
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Put a want ad in the classifieds for a Chinese B21. TheB21 is a Chinese clone of the Diana 48. I haven't seen one in a very long time, but I would bet you can get one if you make the want ad.
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Also call Mike at Flying Dragon. He might be able to order one for you.
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It wouldn't be the same, it's not the sidelever I like so much, it's the craftsmanship and finish.
I actually enjoy shooting breakbarrels more as they are easier/faster to load and I don't have to reposition as much to do so.
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Also call Mike at Flying Dragon. He might be able to order one for you.
Btw: did you get your truck problems sorted? And how are you liking your 34?
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Also call Mike at Flying Dragon. He might be able to order one for you.
Btw: did you get your truck problems sorted? And how are you liking your 34?
Yea I did. The truck runs fine, thanks for the tips. It was just the battery, and Walmart replaced my battery on warranty. Cold starting amps were zero. First time I ever saw a battery so dead. I still don't understand how nothing electronic worked on the truck, even connected to jumper cables, even after waiting awhile.
I love the 34. It's my favorite by a mile, and it will probably be my only before long. I have heard that Ms. Clause is getting me a Vortek tune kit for it (she logged in to my pyramyd account and bought my wishlist).
Still can't believe the spring broke in that rifle. Somebody had offered me a Rossi .410 and a hundred dollar bill for it a few days after I let them shoot it. I swear it was running right! But when I showed up with the gun, he tried to get me to take just the shotgun "for now" which I declined, and let him know I would not hold it for him any longer. I still debate whether or not to post about that experience and drop his name.
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If you are still thinking about an Airhawk, check it out carefully. I picked one up a couple of weeks ago at Wally World and it is NOT a clone of the 34. The one I got was nothing like my 34. Trigger was horrible and accuracy poor. It went back and a Gamo Shadow Whisper follower me back home. For $98 it's not bad, even considering the plastic covered barrel..
Again, I think they changed the design of the Airhawks, at least the Wall World ones. I'd love to have gotten the 34 clone, but the stars were against me..........
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Sorry, but I need to clarify my earlier post. The Ruger I bought was an Airhawk Elite ll. Maybe that's different from the "Airhawk"??????
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The airhawk elite ii is a gas spring version. It has a different trigger, different safety, different piston, etc. only things they probably share are the compression tube (with different cutouts), piston seal, and breech seal.
Go with the original Airhawk in wood, or the original Blackhawk that has the classic sporter style synthetic stock. Those are your 34 clones.
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If you could expand your budget just a little more than buy a HW30S from Krale. It is so much better than any rifle you listed. It's a rifle he can keep the rest of his life and hand down to his kids. It will be a night and day difference from the rifles you listed.
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I,m a little late to the party,but I did convert my Vantage np,basically a wood stock prowler, to a spring. I did not like the shot cycle at all and it is now back to np. I did not use all crosman parts for the conversion so maybe that combined with my lack of experience was the cause for the noisy shot cycle. You would need to order five parts from crosman to convert,maybe six if you include the piston as they are a bit different in the np guns.
I agree on the cocking effort. It is the worst gun I have in cocking effort,but that is mostly due to my worn out shoulders. The shot cycle is great and I might look to see if anyone makes a muzzle break. I did de-bur and lube it and it made little difference in cocking effort. I would suggest leaving the prowler as is and go with one of the many fine suggestions here.
Edit: forgot to add that my optimus is easy to cock compared to the vantage and is an enjoyable all day shooter.
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Optimus and Vantage except for the nitro piston are the same rifle. PA sells muzzle breaks to fit, my Optimus wears this one:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-universal-muzzlebrake-655-590-id-855-od?a=4753 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-universal-muzzlebrake-655-590-id-855-od?a=4753)
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I really enjoyed my Crosman Nitro Venom. About 160 bucks at Pyramyd. Fun little shooter for sure.
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The differences in the Vantage and the Optimus that I found were the piston and the rear spring guide/base. The piston in the Vantage is a tad longer which may not matter?
The rear base in the Vantage that the rear of the nitro piston pushes against did not work with the spring guide that I used(from a Hatsan) because of the pocket in the base. I had to use a bushing in the base (maybe some call it the rear lug?) so the rear spring guide would stay in front of the trigger block. In the Optimus the rear base/lug is part or the rear spring guide. Not trying to be a wisenheimer,just putting it out here for reference. Sorry,could not get the schematic for the Vantage to work.
Thanks for the link to the muzzle brake Steve. I might put one on the Vantage for a cocking aid.
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Bryan, glad you got your truck sorted, and yes it is sometimes hard to believe a very drained battery can keep any of the electronics from working even when on jumper cables. A battery is just a storage device and most likely what was happening when you were on the cables was that most or all of the power from the cables was going to the dead battery to recharge it, wasn't enough left over for powering anything else.
I suspect the broken spring wasn't noticed because it was only about three coils that were broken and they were still acting as a spacer of sorts so power wasn't down very much. I have pics of both the spring and the shot pellets after replacing the springs, but haven't yet tried to post pics here. Might be easier to send them via text, not all that computer savvy unless its automotive electronics, those are quite basic compared to a smart phone or computer.
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How is the crosman F4? They have one at my local wal mart for $79, seems to fit the bill other than the NP.
Not as turned away from gas pistons since lubing the prowler, that really helped make cocking the thing feel much better. Still prefer spring but it's no longer a deal breaker.
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The differences in the Vantage and the Optimus that I found were the piston and the rear spring guide/base. The piston in the Vantage is a tad longer which may not matter?
The rear base in the Vantage that the rear of the nitro piston pushes against did not work with the spring guide that I used(from a Hatsan) because of the pocket in the base. I had to use a bushing in the base (maybe some call it the rear lug?) so the rear spring guide would stay in front of the trigger block. In the Optimus the rear base/lug is part or the rear spring guide. Not trying to be a wisenheimer,just putting it out here for reference. Sorry,could not get the schematic for the Vantage to work.
Thanks for the link to the muzzle brake Steve. I might put one on the Vantage for a cocking aid.
I should have added that and forgot actually which is also a brain fart on my part just because fellow member 1953 Panther sent me the parts list to convert my Optimus to a nitro piston because the parts are a hair different. He's also the same member I got the Titan stock from that my Optimus now rides in.
Here's the finished version after having to drop a new spring and seal in it...was actually my very first tune.
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If you could expand your budget just a little more than buy a HW30S from Krale.
Been following this thread and was just about to mention the HW30S when read Brazos post. Myself, now owning three of them of different vintages (1976, 2002, 2016), I cannot tell you how much in love I am with them. The newest one shoots nearly as smooth as the oldest, indicating that there is not that much break-in necessary. The S version has the renowned Rekord trigger, and is just a dream to have.
Not as turned away from gas pistons since lubing the prowler, that really helped make cocking the thing feel much better.
Fightinggoat - Curious as to what all you did to your Prowler. Been wanting to get inside of mine and see how to improve it. I did the bearing mod on the trigger and that improved it, but I also have a GRTIII on the shelf waiting to be installed. What lubing did you do?
Dennis
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I've heard the F4 is hard to shoot because it's to light. I don't really care for gas ram, but now that you're thinking gas ram check out the Remington Model 777SB. $129 at PA. I think that light colored wood and chrome looks good.
I'm trying to resist ordering a .177 Walther Parrus from AOA. $149. I have a .177 Terrus. Haven't shot it in awhile. If memory serves the trigger wasn't great but it shot okay.
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If you're still thinking springer it seems Walmart still has some Remington Expess springers in black plastic. It has a good copy of the Rekord trigger. $114. Mines in the wood stock. Good shooter.
Someone mentioned the Hatsan Dominator. Mine is a .177 springer carbine. Love it but it is heavy and hard to cock. Underlevers aren't for everyone.
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If you could expand your budget just a little more than buy a HW30S from Krale.
Been following this thread and was just about to mention the HW30S when read Brazos post. Myself, now owning three of them of different vintages (1976, 2002, 2016), I cannot tell you how much in love I am with them. The newest one shoots nearly as smooth as the oldest, indicating that there is not that much break-in necessary. The S version has the renowned Rekord trigger, and is just a dream to have.
Not as turned away from gas pistons since lubing the prowler, that really helped make cocking the thing feel much better.
Fightinggoat - Curious as to what all you did to your Prowler. Been wanting to get inside of mine and see how to improve it. I did the bearing mod on the trigger and that improved it, but I also have a GRTIII on the shelf waiting to be installed. What lubing did you do?
Dennis
I added a longer set screw for the trigger, it allows more preload on the sear and really helped lighten it, in fact I can fire the gun if I turn the screw in far enough. Had to tinker with it by cocking the rifle and holding the barrel in my hand while tightening the screw until it released the piston, then I backed it off one full turn and repeated the process until it was light enough to be accurate but allowed enough engagement to be safe.
I didn't have to debut anything as it was already smooth and free of sharp or jagged edges, I lubed trigger contact and pivot points as well as the springs in the trigger group.
I lubed the piston around the seal with some moly, lubed the cocking linkage, and barrel pivot bushings.
Replaced the breech seal with an oring that stands a little prouder and is more pliable for a better seal.
Also removed the anti bear trap as I like being able to decock and I always maintain control of the barrel while cocking and loading anyway.
It really does cock with less drag now, peak effort is roughly the same, but it glides instead of slides.
I did apply a light film of moly to the NP shaft, even though I know it's sealed so tight it will get wiped away, I figured it couldn't hurt and may help lube the seal area, have done this with automotive gas struts with some success before.
I didn't even have to adjust the scope much after the lube tune, accuracy is better than before with very solid groups, no doubt due to the lighter trigger. It's a really nice shooter with respectable power.
I think a .177 barrel for it might just be all I need to be happy for a while.
It was one of the easier rifles to disassembly, very little preload on the NP, but what little preload that's there is practically impossible to compress without a spring compressor, my entire body weight could just barely budge it a single millimeter.
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After reading your reply I remembered that I also did the longer screw. That made the most difference and improvement, and I adjusted mine exactly as you described, haha. Did you retain the trigger return spring? I did, because it felt sloppy without it, but I see vid's of people who leave it out for some reason.
I'll try removing the bear trap as well. I'm like you in wanting to be able to de-cock them.
I found the parts list that I used for the Prowler .177 barrel. I'm pretty sure it was like $25 to 30. I also ordered a breech seal, but it looks like you have that covered. You'll need to order the cocking link and pin as well (part #17 and 21 on the PDF below) and find a way to flatten the pin. I put mine on the flat of a vise (with padding), had a friend hold the assembly and then tried not to hit his hand while I flattened the pin with a proper size flat faced punch and hammer (a 5lb. sledge works best). It came out looking pretty close to what the factory did and my friends hand healed up just fine.
Download the parts PDF from here (they're the part numbers that I used to order from Crosman). https://support.crosman.com/hc/en-us/articles/204787210-BPNP17X-TMP-Owner-s-Manual-EVP-2014-
I also found a wood stock for mine on ebay for like 12 bucks (plus $13 for shipping :-\) but I like it better than the synth stock.
I like how simple it sounds to lube up, and I have a spring compressor (well, it's a five foot long bar clamp) so that should be no problem.
Thanks for the info. :D
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This is a link to a good thread that shows everything needed to do a barrel swap to .177 with the prices of everything you will need.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123007.msg1455982#msg1455982 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123007.msg1455982#msg1455982)
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That's a good write up for sure, but if all you want to do is change from .22 to .177 on a Benjamin Prowler NP (not a Trail NP2), order and install these parts from the PDF I linked to:
Part #8 B19-7-01-100B Barrel Assembly Qty-1
Part #17 B12-00-1B Lever Pin Qty-1
Part #21 B18-07-00 Lever Assembly Qty-1
Part #9 B22-00-1A Adjust washer Qty-0-2 (optional if you use your own)
Part# 10 B12-00-14 Breach Seal Qty-1 (optional if you use your own)
If the Prowler NP is for sure your model, and if this doesn't work, I'll reimburse you for the parts.
Remember, that above listed lever pin is not a drive in pin. It has a head on it like a flat head screw and must be peened over to fill in the countersunk hole on the opposite side of the breech block, thus making it a permanent attachment. Look at your original .22 and you'll see what I mean.
Here's the PDF parts view
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4LxBf2N/Prowler-parts-diagram.jpg)
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Good catch Dennis. I got in a hurry to post and didn’t pay attention to it being a np2. Thank you.
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Thanks for the parts list. Is the cocking lever different? Or could I just remove the old one and put it on the new barrel?
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Good catch Dennis. I got in a hurry to post and didn’t pay attention to it being a np2. Thank you.
Thanks mac. Didn't mean to dis you or anything.
Thanks for the parts list. Is the cocking lever different? Or could I just remove the old one and put it on the new barrel?
Not different and you can't remove it. It's permanent. I didn't even try after one look at my original.
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No worries Dennis,I did not take it that way at all. :D
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No worries Dennis,I did not take it that way at all. :D
I didn't think so, just makin' sure. :D
I took a look at the second pic in series in that thread link and thought......wait.....did...I...miss.. something..on..mine? HAHA!
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Looking to add a .177 springer to the arsenal, I enjoy shooting my sons xs-12 and the ammo is both cheap and plentiful, just want a full size stock and more power.
I do however want a powerful rifle, accuracy is important, but this is more for fun and power is fun.
Doesn't have to be superb out of the box, I plan on doing a home tune on anything I buy anyway as I enjoy tinkering, including the trigger.
I do want 800-1000fps with lead, not trying to spend much on a casual plinker that I plan on tearing into and experimenting with.
Say under $175, prefer $100-150.
I don't need a scope or bundle with accessories, I have optics I can use but will probably keep using the irons for the short ranges I will be using it for.
Want to stay with .177, I don't have a full size .177 and that's the whole reason for this acquisition.
I demand minute of tin can accuracy and power to spare, all for a large budget of $150. Any takers?
Fightinggoat: If something like this is what you are looking for I may be able to help...
If you can shoot a 800-1000fps Springer well. the crosman 1000x's are GREAT, powerful and accurate. stack pellets at 15 yards, ragged dime size hole groups at 25-30 yards. like mentioned the quest/summit/optimus/striker are great guns, exactly fit your bill.
I have a Crosman Quest 1000X that I thik fits your description above.
It was on the classifieds for a while and didn't get a bite, so I let it slip off the radar. I need to thin the heard and this gun doesn't make the short list of keepers. It just sits in the safe.
It really performs quite well with the H&N Barracuda Match .177's in the 10.65g, Artillery held at the balance point and just let it do its "thing".
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139512.msg1403992#msg1403992 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139512.msg1403992#msg1403992)
PM me if you are interested.
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My Striker 1000x does indeed give a 5-6 shot, dime-size group at 25yds with the CPHP's. With hammers 3-9x32AO mildot scope as well. About half done fitting the model 95 Turkish walnut stock to the striker 1000 action with the barrel clamp swivel kit on the way to fit the HATSAN sling I just got for it.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/egcGIi.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poegcGIij)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/921/cTEVhl.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/plcTEVhlj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/kuydKI.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnkuydKIj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/K5fgwl.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnK5fgwlj)
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If you could expand your budget just a little more than buy a HW30S from Krale.
Been following this thread and was just about to mention the HW30S when read Brazos post. Myself, now owning three of them of different vintages (1976, 2002, 2016), I cannot tell you how much in love I am with them. The newest one shoots nearly as smooth as the oldest, indicating that there is not that much break-in necessary. The S version has the renowned Rekord trigger, and is just a dream to have.
Not as turned away from gas pistons since lubing the prowler, that really helped make cocking the thing feel much better.
Fightinggoat - Curious as to what all you did to your Prowler. Been wanting to get inside of mine and see how to improve it. I did the bearing mod on the trigger and that improved it, but I also have a GRTIII on the shelf waiting to be installed. What lubing did you do?
Dennis
I added a longer set screw for the trigger, it allows more preload on the sear and really helped lighten it, in fact I can fire the gun if I turn the screw in far enough. Had to tinker with it by cocking the rifle and holding the barrel in my hand while tightening the screw until it released the piston, then I backed it off one full turn and repeated the process until it was light enough to be accurate but allowed enough engagement to be safe.
I didn't have to debut anything as it was already smooth and free of sharp or jagged edges, I lubed trigger contact and pivot points as well as the springs in the trigger group.
I lubed the piston around the seal with some moly, lubed the cocking linkage, and barrel pivot bushings.
Replaced the breech seal with an oring that stands a little prouder and is more pliable for a better seal.
Also removed the anti bear trap as I like being able to decock and I always maintain control of the barrel while cocking and loading anyway.
It really does cock with less drag now, peak effort is roughly the same, but it glides instead of slides.
I did apply a light film of moly to the NP shaft, even though I know it's sealed so tight it will get wiped away, I figured it couldn't hurt and may help lube the seal area, have done this with automotive gas struts with some success before.
I didn't even have to adjust the scope much after the lube tune, accuracy is better than before with very solid groups, no doubt due to the lighter trigger. It's a really nice shooter with respectable power.
I think a .177 barrel for it might just be all I need to be happy for a while.
It was one of the easier rifles to disassembly, very little preload on the NP, but what little preload that's there is practically impossible to compress without a spring compressor, my entire body weight could just barely budge it a single millimeter.
Yep.
Anti bear trap in a break barrel. That’s one of the ways you know a gun is designed for entry level...
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Btw,
I second the Remington Express. I really like those. And the front half is B25 so barrels are plentiful.
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I just ran across this on amazon. BSA Supersport SE .177 wood springer $115. The .22 is $164 and the .25 is $300+.
I can't do links. Just google amazon bsa supersport .177 air rifle.
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I just ran across this on amazon. BSA Supersport SE .177 wood springer $115. The .22 is $164 and the .25 is $300+.
I can't do links. Just google amazon bsa supersport .177 air rifle.
Here's your link:
https://www.amazon.com/BSA-1504-SuperSport-Spring-Rifle-177-Caliber/dp/B00IL2X4WU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1544295650&sr=1-1&keywords=bsa+super+sport+.177 (https://www.amazon.com/BSA-1504-SuperSport-Spring-Rifle-177-Caliber/dp/B00IL2X4WU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1544295650&sr=1-1&keywords=bsa+super+sport+.177)
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Update
Just pulled the trigger on a refurb hatsan 85C (camo stock) from field supply.
Was $99 and free shipping. Been attracted to the overal shape and design of the hatsans since I saw them.
.177 springer and only about 7.2lbs with the best actual velocity for its size and weight I could find in my budget. I think I will be quite happy with it.
All this searching has left me with a few for my short list.
Discovered crosman/Benjamin NP2 and Elite models. Not a fan of the suppressor shroud, but otherwise looks like a solid line up with better than usual performance and USA assembled. Considered the benji iron side as it's about the cheapest in the line up and they all appear the same except for the price tag and name.
Ruger Airhawk/Blackhawk/RAM
Still like the looks and the Blackhawk Elite probably would have been mine if the price would have been the same as the regular Blackhawk. I dont have any thumbhole stocks and wouldn't mind adding some variety. Seems the Elite II is a different animal altogether and isn't on my radar. Nearly purchased an Airhawk at a local box store, had it in the cart and all, but held off for my wife to deside for Christmas (my gift this year)
Umarex Octane
Performance is there when you replace the always damaged piston seal, but a little heavy and expensive, still a possibility in the future.
Crosman stealth, love the camo and shape of the stock, looks like a real lightweight and a great plinker or hunter. Price is right as well, if I didn't want to try a hatsan so badly I probably would have gotten this.
Crosman F4, price is great at $79 on my local Walmart shelf, want to try thumbhole stock, small and lightweight, but kind of boring and just not as desirable as the 85C or stealth.
Who knows, may pick one up for my son, he is hungry for more power and has grown in strength to where he can cock my D52 and Prowler, though with some difficulty, he enjoys the challenge.
Did get him a crosman Mako pistol to replace the Snr 357 I got from PA for him for Christmas that arrived defective as all get out. It was a refurb so figured it's been looked over carefully and repaired, but it was missing the BB shells, the hammer was loose and floppy, and velocity was very low, many pellets actually got stuck in a cardboard box, didn't even go through one sheet of cardboard at 8ft! Accuracy was abysmal, I can literally shoot tighter groups with a slingshot.
I have since torn it down and made some improvements, it now has the power it should, the hammer is much better but still kinda sloppy, and accuracy is ok for plinking, but every two or three shots is a wild flyer. So it's likely going back.
Mako looks fun.
Thanks for the suggestions and I will update this thread once I get to shoot the hatsan 85C.
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Update
Just pulled the trigger on a refurb hatsan 85C (camo stock) from field supply !
Congratulations Brian ! :)
Best Wished - Tom
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Following this thread caused me to order off Amazon a .177 BSA Supersport SE springer. $115 Nice gun, great trigger out of the box. Just shot it off the back porch a couple of times. Took the sights off and mounted a CP 3-9x32. I'll try to shoot it this weekend. I just looked at the link and now it's temp. out of stock and $399.
Couldn't resist, I also ordered a Remington Model 777SB. UPS should drop it off this evening.
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Following this thread caused me to order off Amazon a .177 BSA Supersport SE springer. $115 Nice gun, great trigger out of the box. Just shot it off the back porch a couple of times. Took the sights off and mounted a CP 3-9x32. I'll try to shoot it this weekend. I just looked at the link and now it's temp. out of stock and $399.
Couldn't resist, I also ordered a Remington Model 777SB. UPS should drop it off this evening.
Congratulations to you too...Tim ! :)
Best Wishes - Tom
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That's a powerful breakbarrel. Like D48 power in a breakbarrel, with less weight. Nice pick.
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I wish I could've gotten the 725VTR with the wood stock on the 777SB. That would've been purty. But I still got it lookin pretty good just the same;
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/Wt06Ww.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poWt06Wwj)
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That camo does look good. I prefer wood. Looking at the back end of the 725 I don't think the stocks would be interchangeable.
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The action is supposed to be the same Trail NPXL carry-over? So it should fit? I do like how the Realtree EDGE camo came out though. Makes a plastic stock look a bit better I think?
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I recommend the Gamo Silent Cat in .177.
Cheap smooth cocking, light and accurate.
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Glad you like your Silent Cat Damon.
I had a Big Cat... rough, grinding, inaccurate POS. Put a bad taste in my mouth for Gamo.