GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Pellet Review Gate => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on October 27, 2018, 05:39:17 PM
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Okay so I've lamented this point a few times in the past. Probably enough that some of you guys wish I would just shut up about it. Sorry, but you're going to have to hear it at least one more time ;D
When I first got into airgunning in 2012, Crosman pellets were quite good. Seldom the best but frequently good for 1.5 - 2 MoA at 25 yards (around 3/8" to 1/2"), and occasionally flirting with 1 MoA. I even had a batch of the heavy .177s that put down some sweet sub-MoA bugholes on the 43 yard target. Oh how I long to experience that cheap accuracy again. But in recent years the quality has degraded to the point where they are hardly worth the $7 - $8 a tin.
A few others have echoed similar sentiments of their quality going down hill, the most recent example being Harry's comment this week:
In .22 the CP and CPHP are both highly inconsistent (tested in many guns) and non-uniform producing frequent fliers so I stopped buying them about 2 years ago. They didn't used to be that way and were my pellet of choice for a couple of my 22's, but the last 5-6 years the quality control has deteriorated.
I've sometimes wondered if it's just a perception thing, or that maybe other variables have changed and I'm giving unfair criticism. I've long since shot all the "good ones" so I have no way to compare them under the same conditions.
Well, a serendipitous thing happened the other day. My uncle had a partial tin of .22 CPHPs that I'd given him back in 2013:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6079)
So today I decided to do a little test to see if there's anything to it. I chose the FD-PCP for this test for two reasons:
- It's not pellet picky. It's not my most accurate .22 but it gives a fair shake to most any pellet and doesn't throw fliers.
- I've continued to try some Crosman pellets from time to time and I had tagged two tins, one from 2016 and one from 2017, as being good in the FD-PCP. Many other tins from recent years have not fared as well. I'm not wanting to stack the deck, I want to steel man Crosman for this test.
So with that said, here's how it went:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6080)
And here is a markup with the group sizes:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6082)
The two newer tins show the sort of thing I've come to expect...they look like they either want to stack into two distinct groups (leftmost group) or give an errant shot that would be tempting to call a flier (the second group). And look at our old pellets from 2013, a pretty MoA group. I added the JSB group as a control.
So what I want to know is, will Crosman pellets ever return to their former glory?
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My Maximus like all of my CPHP 14.3 and Benji Hollow 14.3... as for dates bought can not remember and did not mark... but from 2014 to 2017 ish... a lot of 30 yard .4 OTO...no fliers just some .5 ish here and there on me.... funny thing is It does not like any of my 14.3 ultra mags... it does have a very tight barrel..?
I am betting it has much to do with head size variation... think I will order a few more tins soon see if the current crop show any different...
I like NCED's head sizer die... going to experiment with sizing thru my NOE system... have .215 thru .224 now and skirts can be sized back up easily...
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I got better accuracy with the ones in the cardboard box with lot # printed on the box. I have found the that the Wally World versions in the nice looking tins are junk.
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Okay so I've lamented this point a few times in the past. Probably enough that some of you guys wish I would just shut up about it. Sorry, but you're going to have to hear it at least one more time ;D
When I first got into airgunning in 2012, Crosman pellets were quite good. Seldom the best but frequently good for 1.5 - 2 MoA at 25 yards (around 3/8" to 1/2"), and occasionally flirting with 1 MoA. I even had a batch of the heavy .177s that put down some sweet sub-MoA bugholes on the 43 yard target. Oh how I long to experience that cheap accuracy again. But in recent years the quality has degraded to the point where they are hardly worth the $7 - $8 a tin.
A few others have echoed similar sentiments of their quality going down hill, the most recent example being Harry's comment this week:
In .22 the CP and CPHP are both highly inconsistent (tested in many guns) and non-uniform producing frequent fliers so I stopped buying them about 2 years ago. They didn't used to be that way and were my pellet of choice for a couple of my 22's, but the last 5-6 years the quality control has deteriorated.
I've sometimes wondered if it's just a perception thing, or that maybe other variables have changed and I'm giving unfair criticism. I've long since shot all the "good ones" so I have no way to compare them under the same conditions.
Well, a serendipitous thing happened the other day. My uncle had a partial tin of .22 CPHPs that I'd given him back in 2013:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6079)
So today I decided to do a little test to see if there's anything to it. I chose the FD-PCP for this test for two reasons:
- It's not pellet picky. It's not my most accurate .22 but it gives a fair shake to most any pellet and doesn't throw fliers.
- I've continued to try some Crosman pellets from time to time and I had tagged two tins, one from 2016 and one from 2017, as being good in the FD-PCP. Many other tins from recent years have not fared as well. I'm not wanting to stack the deck, I want to steel man Crosman for this test.
So with that said, here's how it went:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6080)
And here is a markup with the group sizes:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6082)
The two newer tins show the sort of thing I've come to expect...they look like they either want to stack into two distinct groups (leftmost group) or give an errant shot that would be tempting to call a flier (the second group). And look at our old pellets from 2013, a pretty MoA group. I added the JSB group as a control.
So what I want to know is, will Crosman pellets ever return to their former glory?
I only shoot .177 cal but after trying the "CPHPs in a tin" I found that as long as the fit the leade of my HW springers is consistent they were just as accurate as my die lot marked and dated 7.9 grain CPLs from the 1250 count box. The "fly in the ointment" is the fact that 1/3rd of the "CPHPs from the tin" didn't fit the leade consistently because those pellets come from multiple dies.
(https://i.imgur.com/vm4w0uql.jpg)
Another issue I had with my tins of CPHPs was the fact that they were covered with excess parting compound which made my loading fingers look like this after a short shooting session. LOL......if I were to shoot those things regularly I'd be washing and lubing them.....................
(https://i.imgur.com/CQh86oCl.jpg)
Here are "boxed CPL head measurements taken from randomly selected pellets............
(https://i.imgur.com/qbrnYqjl.jpg)
LOL.....this 18 yard group with CPHPs from my .177 Beeman R9 with a rather loose lead wasn't especially tight, however it was better than the Chinese .177 Winchester pellets I bought at Tractor Supply..........
(https://i.imgur.com/ITaZqrnl.jpg)
Here are a few groups from my .177 HW95 using Die "B" boxed CPLs shot sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks............
(https://i.imgur.com/eIKiookl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)
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Not sure what is going on with them, I did stash away the older accurate ones when a got a deal on a bulk buy of newer wally world ones for $5 a tin so the newer are my plinking gotoos . same with the winnis domes sorta LOL
AA domes etc are my go to for available accurate pellets for every day hunting guns, unless I cast my own, as I also do.
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Found the same thing with their .22 Pointed pells. I liked them for their solid construction and fairly high BC.
Only A handful of my guns really ‘liked’ them, but these guns shot them quite well.
This subsequently changed. Without weighing/measuring, it’s logical to assume that consistency has taken a nosedive. The .22 HPs shoot so poorly in my guns, I only use them as throwaways (breaking-in springers, firelapping etc)
The inconsistency is obvious when loading break-barrel springers. Some fit quite loosely, others snug.
In pursuit of high profit margins, Crosman is cranking out alot of junk. Sad
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I don't buy Crosman pellets anymore, they're not that good in my opinion!
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Guys
Has anyone tested the lead hardness of each group of the pellets?
I am finding that each brand/type has a different hardness of the lead used,
doing the pencil test. :o
This might have something to do with the hardness.........vs the accuracy?
Food for thought...........
Tia,
Don
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I recently received an order of boxed .177 caliber CPH's on Sept 11th, production date on the box was Apr 16, 2016 [Die 'M']... is it typical for current purchases to have a production date that dated? (Purchased made from Amazon)
My initial shot groups out of this lot were all over the place; high, low, left, right... no consistency at all.
Upon closer observation, I found that approximately 35-40% of the pellets had heavy seams/mold line flashings...
I sorted out 10 of the more heavily seamed pellets and shot a 10 shot group @ 12 yards... produced an approximate 2" group
I deburred 10 of the lighter seamed pellets and shot a 10 shot group @ 12 yards... produced an approximate 1/2" group
I shot a follow-up 5 shot group using H&N Baracuda Hunter HP 10.34 grain pellets @ 12 yards... 3/8" group
The CPH's have been a disappointment to say the least!!! After reading thru countless posts regarding Crosman pellet quality issues over the past several years... I can assure you, I'll not be placing any orders for Crosman pellets anytime soon...
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I recently received an order of boxed .177 caliber CPH's on Sept 11th, production date on the box was Apr 16, 2016 [Die 'M']... is it typical for current purchases to have a production date that dated? (Purchased made from Amazon)
My initial shot groups out of this lot were all over the place; high, low, left, right... no consistency at all.
Upon closer observation, I found that approximately 35-40% of the pellets had heavy seams/mold line flashings...
I sorted out 10 of the more heavily seamed pellets and shot a 10 shot group @ 12 yards... produced an approximate 2" group
I deburred 10 of the lighter seamed pellets and shot a 10 shot group @ 12 yards... produced an approximate 1/2" group
I shot a follow-up 5 shot group using H&N Baracuda Hunter HP 10.34 grain pellets @ 12 yards... 3/8" group
The CPH's have been a disappointment to say the least!!! After reading thru countless posts regarding Crosman pellet quality issues over the past several years... I can assure you, I'll not be placing any orders for Crosman pellets anytime soon...
Indeed, over the years some cases of 7.9 grain Crosman premiers I've bought have had some QC issues, but I haven't had any issues at all with my last "3 case order" (12 boxes). I don't use heavy pellets in my springers so I can't vouch for the 10.5 grain offerings one way or another, however when living in WV my brother used the CP heavies and preferred them for accuracy from his .177 R9. That was decades ago and it does seem that the CPHs from your box are also "QC challenged". If the Crosman premiers (or any other brand) aren't accurate, simply find a pellet that is satisfactory. I do admit that this could be difficult with some guns like the Gamo440 I owned and wouldn't shoot tighter than 1" ctc at 30 yards no matter what I used! . With my .177 R9 the unsized & unsorted die "B" CPLs are the best pellet and here are a few 50 yard groups shot "bucket and sticks" and the result. Notice the CPL (probably die "A") group in the upper left corner.........
(https://i.imgur.com/lRt2vjbl.jpg)
The last 3 cases of 7.9 grain CPLs bought from Pyramyd air received on June 27, 2015 (finishing up those cases now) were die "B" date stamped Feb 03 2014. I'm supposing that PA was selling what they had in stock and PERHAPS Crosman delivers pellets to the vendors from stockpiled pellets, however I really don't know.
Received on June 27, 2015.........
(https://i.imgur.com/GhAG8F0l.jpg)
Remaining pellets........
(https://i.imgur.com/KffbpLxl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/9GsWzQ8l.jpg)
The last 3 boxes were all weighed and sorted when I "discovered" that the weights from lightest to heaviest was a waste of time since the variation was less than .4 grain and all but a few out of about 3700 CPLs had a weight variation of less than .3 grain.............
(https://i.imgur.com/bJk6B8Vl.jpg)
In years past when I lived in West Virginia (perhaps 20 years ago) Crosman had QC issues with the die lot marked and dated 7.9 grain CPLs (around die #7) where there were excessive amounts of undersized pellets in the boxes along with "swarf", but I haven't had any "size issues" since moving to North Carolina about 12 years ago. I did have a case of CPLs that were coated with excess parting compound which colored my "loading fingers" so that case was washed and dried before lubing with Slick50 OneLube. That case of CPLs prompted me to try the 8.4 grain JSB Exacts but the head sizes of those 8 tins of supposedly 4.52mm pellets was much too variable for use with my .177 R9. Then I ordered a bunch of supposedly 4.52mm H&N FTTs and found the same "variable pellet head sizes" so I reverted back to the 7.9 grain CPL and ordered the 3 cases shown in the posted pic. I fully expected to be washing the pellets but I was pleased to find that none of the pellets from these cases needed to be washed.
As a side note, years ago I received a case of CPLs and every pellet looked like this.......
(https://i.imgur.com/kklLAd6l.jpg)
I was going to return them to the vendor but decided to at least shoot a few first. To my surprise they were the most accurate CPL from my R9 so I took a box over to my brother to test. My brother also found that they were the most consistently accurate CPL from his R9 so we pooled our money and ordered every box of that die lot and date stamp the vendor had in stock. It was pretty easy to sort those boxes because they date stamp printed upside down relative to the month and year. LOL......those pellets are "long gone" but my brother would only use them for hunter class field target matched and squirrel hunting.
Since then I bought a .177 HW95 and finding that the leade was a lot tighter than the R9 I was resizing the die "B" CPL pellet heads to make loading the pellets into the leade less "sore finger". While the resized CPLs were very accurate I decided to order a few tins of 8.4 grain 4.52mm Air Arms domes to see how the tighter leade would affect the grouping. I haven't done any 50 yard testing yet but the group I shot upstairs at 18 yards sitting on a bucket and resting the gun on cross sticks does look promising, even with the "left-right" stringing due to my swaying on the bucket :o.........
(https://i.imgur.com/U86xJctl.jpg)
If the accuracy of the AA domes holds up at 50 yards from the HW95 (grouping was about 1" ctc with the looser leade R9) then I'll probably switch for the HW95 and reserve the remaining die "B" CPLs for the R9 which I seldom use any more.
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Hey guys, thanks for sharing your experiences. It seems most of us have seen a similar trend.
Since I’m a glutton for punishment, I ordered a box of the .177 heavies to try again. The last time I tried them was back in 2013 and those unfortunately had already taken a nosedive but I’m curious to see if today’s single-die pellets are any good. I’ll report back on my findings.
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The new box of .177 heavies (10.5gr) are in. I’m anxious to try them so I’ll see if I can do that tonight. From just a visual, the parting lines are worse than I hoped but not as bad as the old batch, and some have light flashing / flakes coming off the skirts. We’ll see.
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I have 3 boxes of the CPHs and will have to check dates and lots on them. The one I am shooting from now is hands down the best pellet from my D 34P at 30 yds. I will have to try the other two boxes but these are outshooting JSB, AA, H&N in this gun.
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ya know Jason the problem with the forum is I can not be there with you and run my Buccaneer that actually like the .177 CPUM better than the AA 10.3... Why it likes them better I do not know for sure... But it is a stiff choked barrel which I think helps deal with head size variation..?
Also my Max liking the CPHP 14.3 well I just slugged it the other day with a .216 sized BBT... it came out .2161... so the tight barrel is another way of dealing with head size variation..?
possible is to tight for .22 CPUM 14.3 cause well the shoot like *(&^ out of my max while the hollows are tight clover leafs at 30- 35 yards...
So many variables... ... ...
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Interesting, Kirby. Just goes to show that often the "best pellet" for one may not be the "best pellet" for others. What can you do? I say everyone should sort, weigh, size, clean, freeze, thaw, microwave, and inspect every pellet. Or maybe not. ;)
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Yeah I’m quite happy to acknowledge there are some barrels that will produce good results at 30 – 40 yards with the current crop of Crosman pellets. Rather, my concern is that there are far fewer that will do it nowadays…including those that have proven to be accurate with Crosman in the past. For example I still have two regulated QBs, one in .22 and one in .177, and they both would frequently give 3/8” groups at 25 yards with each and every new batch of Crosmans I bought. But over the last 4 – 5 years, I have yet to get those results again. Not once. Groups have grown to something more like ¾” – 1”.
And that’s partly why I thought it would be interesting to see how the FD-PCP fares. It’s not pellet fussy but I had no history using old Crosmans in it so I had no idea what to expect when I sat down with the tin from 2013. Yet somehow it played out exactly like it has with other rif in recent years.
Again I want to emphasize that the other two tins from 2016 and 2017 are the best ones I’ve gotten in a long time and they got their doors blown off by the old pellets.
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Okay here's a quick test of the new box of .177 heavies (Die M dated July 2018):
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6083)
And a markup with the group sizes:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6084)
Not looking very promising unfortunately. The first group with the QB79 had the "two distinct groups" pattern that has shown up frequently over the last few years. I was hoping it was a fluke but the second group did the same thing again.
The next rifle wasn't too fond of them either.
I'll try them in some other rifles this weekend
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Okay here's a quick test of the new box of .177 heavies (Die M dated July 2018):
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6083)
And a markup with the group sizes:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6084)
Not looking very promising unfortunately. The first group with the QB79 had the "two distinct groups" pattern that has shown up frequently over the last few years. I was hoping it was a fluke but the second group did the same thing again.
The next rifle wasn't too fond of them either.
I'll try them in some other rifles this weekend
I don't shoot "heavies" from my HW95 but if my groupings were similar to your CPH groups they wouldn't be acceptable for me either!
The last 4 cases of die "B" CPLs I bought were date stamped back in 2015 so I wonder if the later production runs would be as accurate as those produced in 2015. To my surprise the laters tins of .177 4.52mm AA domes have fit the tighter leade HW95 very nicely and my short 18 yard testing have been encouraging so far, however I haven't tested them at 50 yards yet. If the AA domes maintain their accuracy I really don't see myself ordering any more cases of CPLs since the boxed Crosman Premiers have gotten relatively expensive at about $33 per box. Even with a PA deal of "buy 4 pay for 3" the order of a case (4 boxes) would be about $100 when shipping is included after the PA "10% discount code"! Basically, the cost per pellet of CPLs vs AA domes using the "buy 4 and pay for 3" deal is so slight that it's irrelevant!
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I can get better groups throwing rocks than shooting CPHP's! They s u c k...
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This morning I tried the Die M heavies in 3 more rifles and unfortunately it's more of the same...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6085)
Like before, this was at 25 yards. Even the choked LW barrel won't group them.
I almost didn't even pick up the Plinkster to try it because it's downtuned quite a bit (450fps with these) so it was surprising to see it beat out the other two. Still, none of them is acceptable for any of the shooting I normally do. Sigh...
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Yeah I checked, my heavies are lot M. straight from th box or cleaned and lubed shoot dimes or better at 30 from my 34D. Sure wish I had had an older box. Wonder what they would do.
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The new box of .177 heavies (10.5gr) are in. I’m anxious to try them so I’ll see if I can do that tonight. From just a visual, the parting lines are worse than I hoped but not as bad as the old batch, and some have light flashing / flakes coming off the skirts. We’ll see.
My 1377 short carbine loves these. It has a steel breech, scope, and the skeleton stock. Eight pumps.