GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Tom1340 on June 05, 2023, 12:43:55 AM
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8 months ago, I posted that I could place 15 shots in a row into a dime (22 cal R9 @25 yards), but after that, my shooting fell off. Since then, I have been through the gun several times... new ARH springs, new vortex seal, polishing & lubing wedge port, multiple scopes (my apologies to Hawke), etc,,,etc. Now, 8 months later, I've fine tuned my analysis. My accuracy & groups (these are not the same thing) are very good for 20 shots, then the groups start spreading a bit, and the group "center" moves down over the next 10 to 20 shots. They seem to stabilize about 1/2 - 3/4 inch below the initial group. I usually wear myself out about then and stop shooting, so I'm not really sure how stable the new poi is. In 24 hrs, when I shoot again, the process repeats itself.
This really had me baffled. But Jim of UK (in another posting) recently attributed this kind of behavior the heat buildup on the full face piston seal used by most springers, both break barrels and fixed barrels.
So have I found the reason for my guns performance? If so, I would expect most of you guys and gals have the same issue. Well...?
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8 months ago, I posted that I could place 15 shots in a row into a dime (22 cal R9 @25 yards), but after that, my shooting fell off. Since then, I have been through the gun several times... new ARH springs, new vortex seal, polishing & lubing wedge port, multiple scopes (my apologies to Hawke), etc,,,etc. Now, 8 months later, I've fine tuned my analysis. My accuracy & groups (these are not the same thing) are very good for 20 shots, then the groups start spreading a bit, and the group "center" moves down over the next 10 to 20 shots. They seem to stabilize about 1/2 - 3/4 inch below the initial group. I usually wear myself out about then and stop shooting, so I'm not really sure how stable the new poi is. In 24 hrs, when I shoot again, the process repeats itself.
This really had me baffled. But Jim of UK (in another posting) recently attributed this kind of behavior the heat buildup on the full face piston seal used by most springers, both break barrels and fixed barrels.
So have I found the reason for my guns performance? If so, I would expect most of you guys and gals have the same issue. Well...?
Chronograph will tell you everything
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the heat buildup on the full face piston seal used by most springers, both break barrels and fixed barrels.
Just a comment that most springers don't have full face piston seals. That's a Weihrauch thing. I have well over a dozen springers and two of them have closed instead of open seals. Air Arms, Diana, Cometa, Gamo etc. all use open seals.
Recent Weihrauchs often exhibit slightly out of round compression tubes. A closed (full face) seal cannot deal with this asymmetry nearly as well as an open, parachute seal would. This is a recipe for lack of shooting consistency.
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Maybe shooter fatigue??
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Have you checked for cocking arm binding. A lot of the recently made HW95 family guns have had lock up issues because the cocking arm binds to the breech. The binding sets the lock up point which can move with use. It also can cause barrel droop.
The way to check, is to see if you can wiggle the cocking arm with the gun closed. If the cocking arm is tight, open the gun, put a piece of paper under the length of the breech and close the gun.. If the paper is bit tight, the arm is binding. The arm should wiggle pretty easily when normal and not clamp the paper hard.
There's other things it can be as well. Some have to do with piston seals, some with diesel. Too thick a breech seal can do it as well.
You can pm me for my phone number if you want me to walk you through any of this stuff.
Be well
Ron
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I have to warm up some. 20-30 shot to get back in the groove, get relax, get my hold back. Walking around back and forth setting up targets, carrying stuff out. Let my heart rate and breathing slowed back down. I never re-zero till I shoot a little while. Might be tight but not at POA. After I'm warmed up and got the zen going again shots come back to POA.
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Hi Tom
I feel your frustrations. As a springer shooter, I've done my share of chasing POI shifts, fliers etc. This has forced me to develop a systemic approach to POI shifts and/or fliers.
Isolate the cause or combination of causes
1. you (position/rest used, breath, trigger control)
2. environmental
3. Gun
4. scope
3 and 4 are fairly easy to isolate.
For #3, check all your screws, chrono the gun, look at the crown, test different pellets
#4, try a differ scope on the gun, try anti-recoiling mounts, mount a laser in combination with your "suspect" scope to track POA vs POI shifts
For #1, have someone who shoots springers shoot your gun and scope. This was my problem. My buddy shot my gun and scope and said there was no problem. I didn't believe him for the longest time. Till about 8 months ago, after changing scopes, tuning the gun...I started working on my trigger pull and positions. Big big improvement. Now I can "call" my shots.
For #2, Shoot indoors at the longest distance you can manage.
Good luck.
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Hi Tom
I feel your frustrations. As a springer shooter, I've done my share of chasing POI shifts, fliers etc. This has forced me to develop a systemic approach to POI shifts and/or fliers.
Isolate the cause or combination of causes
1. you (position/rest used, breath, trigger control)
2. environmental
3. Gun
4. scope
3 and 4 are fairly easy to isolate.
For #3, check all your screws, chrono the gun, look at the crown, test different pellets
#4, try a differ scope on the gun, try anti-recoiling mounts, mount a laser in combination with your "suspect" scope to track POA vs POI shifts
For #1, have someone who shoots springers shoot your gun and scope. This was my problem. My buddy shot my gun and scope and said there was no problem. I didn't believe him for the longest time. Till about 8 months ago, after changing scopes, tuning the gun...I started working on my trigger pull and positions. Big big improvement. Now I can "call" about 85% of my shots.
For #2, Shoot indoors at the longest distance you can manage.
Good luck.
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8 months ago, I posted that I could place 15 shots in a row into a dime (22 cal R9 @25 yards), but after that, my shooting fell off. Since then, I have been through the gun several times... new ARH springs, new vortex seal, polishing & lubing wedge port, multiple scopes (my apologies to Hawke), etc,,,etc. Now, 8 months later, I've fine tuned my analysis. My accuracy & groups (these are not the same thing) are very good for 20 shots, then the groups start spreading a bit, and the group "center" moves down over the next 10 to 20 shots. They seem to stabilize about 1/2 - 3/4 inch below the initial group. I usually wear myself out about then and stop shooting, so I'm not really sure how stable the new poi is. In 24 hrs, when I shoot again, the process repeats itself.
This really had me baffled. But Jim of UK (in another posting) recently attributed this kind of behavior the heat buildup on the full face piston seal used by most springers, both break barrels and fixed barrels.
So have I found the reason for my guns performance? If so, I would expect most of you guys and gals have the same issue. Well...?
How long do the 15-20 shots take? 2-3 minutes or 10-15?
-Y
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Thanks All for comments and insight.
Yogi, 20 shots take me 20 - 30 minutes. It is a relaxed pace, and being relaxed really helps my shooting.
Ron, there was initially contact between the cocking arm and the breech block. I removed a very small amount of material from the arm at the contact point, and arm is now loose and easily wiggled. No evidence of dieseling (piston is sparingly lubed with krytox). I've thought about the breech seal expanding as I shoot...could be...I wonder how to test this parameter. I think I have an old seal. I may shave it a bit, and see what results.
Lefteye...interesting, my 1st shot is often my best, and the next 20 or so are good,,, the opposite of your experience. I do not reset my zero as my gun warms up, as I want my 1st shot from a cold gun to be on target. The infrequent rat that visits my wife's finch feeder won't hang around for a 2nd shot.
Airnut.. My shooting is quite sensitive to my state of mind, so fatigue is a possiblity. But the change in poi is so repeatable, month after month. I would not expect fatigue to give such consistency.
Your responses are not what I was expecting. I figured you guys would say "yeah, get used to it, that's how spring guns work." But apparently my situation is not normal. Its not big problem for me, and I enjoy the shooting as it is, but I really like to understand how things work. Thanks, Tom
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You can thin the breech seal by sliding it on the end of a wood dowel, chuck the dowel in a drill and sand the surface with coarse emery paper. A little it a time, most wind up around .170-.172"
Mark611 warms then up with a heat gun and closes the breech. I've never tried this myself.
Good luck.
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Yep Ron, I was going to suggest that, I read this post yesterday but I was getting ready for work and did not have time to post, vertical stringing is caused by the breech seal or inconsistent pellet head sizes, if you decide to heat up the seal outside of the block, remove it, make sure you put back in the same way it came out, once heated close the breech gently, but make sure you close it hard enough so it locks up solid! ;D
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I did a little testing of my 177 HW95 to see it has the same POI variation. Yesterday it was 85 degrees, sunny and humid. I had been shooting the gun for several hundred shots when I had this dismal attempt at the first seven targets on the ten dimes sheet. All targets shot left to right then top down. You can clearly see where the zero was.
This morning I continued with five shot groups. It was 65 and shady. I started with the last three targets on the ten dimes sheet and moved to the other target.
The POI did start about a 3/8" high and then finally settled to where it was yesterday by the last group. This may have been because of use or the ambient temps climbed while I was shooting.
The targets set up at 30 yards so IMO a 3/8" variance of POI is doesn't wig me out.
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I did a little testing of my 177 HW95 to see it has the same POI variation. Yesterday it was 85 degrees, sunny and humid. I had been shooting the gun for several hundred shots when I had this dismal attempt at the first seven targets on the ten dimes sheet. All targets shot left to right then top down. You can clearly see where the zero was.
This morning I continued with five shot groups. It was 65 and shady. I started with the last three targets on the ten dimes sheet and moved to the other target.
The POI did start about a 3/8" high and then finally settled to where it was yesterday by the last group. This may have been because of use or the ambient temps climbed while I was shooting.
The targets set up at 30 yards so IMO a 3/8" variance of POI is doesn't wig me out.
If you shot those after we talked that may explain it. ;D⁶
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8 months ago, I posted that I could place 15 shots in a row into a dime (22 cal R9 @25 yards), but after that, my shooting fell off. Since then, I have been through the gun several times... new ARH springs, new vortex seal, polishing & lubing wedge port, multiple scopes (my apologies to Hawke), etc,,,etc. Now, 8 months later, I've fine tuned my analysis. My accuracy & groups (these are not the same thing) are very good for 20 shots, then the groups start spreading a bit, and the group "center" moves down over the next 10 to 20 shots. They seem to stabilize about 1/2 - 3/4 inch below the initial group. I usually wear myself out about then and stop shooting, so I'm not really sure how stable the new poi is. In 24 hrs, when I shoot again, the process repeats itself.
This really had me baffled. But Jim of UK (in another posting) recently attributed this kind of behavior the heat buildup on the full face piston seal used by most springers, both break barrels and fixed barrels.
So have I found the reason for my guns performance? If so, I would expect most of you guys and gals have the same issue. Well...?
I clean my .177 R9 and HW95 barrels when the accuracy "goes south" and after the bore cleaning my poi does move some till the bore gets "re-seasoned" after a couple dozen shots, then the poi remains consistent for another tin or two of pellets (perhaps 1000 shots) and the process of cleaning/seasoning the bore is repeated. If you're always shooting after a fresh bore clean perhaps you need to continue shooting after the bore is 'seasoned" and see if the poi is stabilized.
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Tom: I'd suggest shooting the rifle until the POI drops, then leaving it in the shade to re-acclimatise for perhaps ten minutes, then see if the POI is back where it started. If so, thermal expansion of the piston seal could be the issue; if not, it's something else.
The increase in kinetic friction associated with thermal expansion of the seal may or probably won't impact on muzzle velocity, but it will retard the point in the recoil cycle that the pellet exits the muzzle, lowering the POI.
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Interesting thread. I have a new HW 50s .22 that I have been shooting a lot since I got it a month or so ago. Probably put close to 1000 rounds of various pellets through it. Really a nice shooter. This topic makes me think that should be more cognizant of poi changes as I shoot from Day to day. In another thread I mentioned some first shot flyers upon which I got some good suggestions. It is starting to look like if I change my facial expression while shooting my poi or group size will change!! Yikes.
I have been doing quite a bit of scope adjustment. This suggests that I need to correlate these with any stock removal or screw tightening or just day to day variation. Been trying hard to do same gun rest, breathing etc. Tom1340 has opened my eyes to the “joys” of springers🤓. I can get several good groups then start spitting pellets all over (it seems). I shoot at 20 yds and my flyers look way out but in fact are usually half inch or less from cluster. Still a kill shot but hard to figure why sometimes.
Can’t help Tom cause he has forgotten more about these guns than I know!
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I hate to say this, but I believe that after your 20 shoots, THAT IS YOUR POI!
The first 20 shoots just warm up the gun to where it normally wants to shoot.
-Y
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I hate to say this, but I believe that after your 20 shoots, THAT IS YOUR POI!
The first 20 shoots just warm up the gun to where it normally wants to shoot.
-Y
That's fine if you only shoot paper. A hunting rifle has to predictably print the first shot on target. There's no warm up shots while hunting. I returned two Savage 17 hmr rifles that had unpredictable cold bore shots. The third one was no better I cut that rifle in half and threw it in a dumpster. No more Savage rifles for me.
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I hate to say this, but I believe that after your 20 shoots, THAT IS YOUR POI!
The first 20 shoots just warm up the gun to where it normally wants to shoot.
-Y
That's fine if you only shoot paper. A hunting rifle has to predictably print the first shot on target. There's no warm up shots while hunting. I returned two Savage 17 hmr rifles that had unpredictable cold bore shots. The third one was no better I cut that rifle in half and threw it in a dumpster. No more Savage rifles for me.
I'm with Ron on this. Rabbits don't come into my field on a conveyor belt, and the interval between shots might be fifteen minutes to an hour or more, so every shot is a first shot.
In HFT, people zeroing their rifles shoot fairly quickly, so heat builds up in the piston seal and changes the pellet POI, which they correct by adjusting their scope. Then, everyone at a shoot has to attend the safety briefing, then make their way to their starting peg, by which time, the heat has flowed from the piston seal into the cylinder wall and end wall, and their first shot on the course goes high, in the order of an inch high at 30 yards. The interval between shots on an HFT course might be five minutes, so every shot is effectively a first shot.
I'm sure Yogi is right - if you keep shooting without allowing the seal time to cool, the 'new' POI will be maintained.
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I hate to say this, but I believe that after your 20 shoots, THAT IS YOUR POI!
The first 20 shoots just warm up the gun to where it normally wants to shoot.
-Y
That's fine if you only shoot paper. A hunting rifle has to predictably print the first shot on target. There's no warm up shots while hunting. I returned two Savage 17 hmr rifles that had unpredictable cold bore shots. The third one was no better I cut that rifle in half and threw it in a dumpster. No more Savage rifles for me.
I'm with Ron on this. Rabbits don't come into my field on a conveyor belt, and the interval between shots might be fifteen minutes to an hour or more, so every shot is a first shot.
In HFT, people zeroing their rifles shoot fairly quickly, so heat builds up in the piston seal and changes the pellet POI, which they correct by adjusting their scope. Then, everyone at a shoot has to attend the safety briefing, then make their way to their starting peg, by which time, the heat has flowed from the piston seal into the cylinder wall and end wall, and their first shot on the course goes high, in the order of an inch high at 30 yards. The interval between shots on an HFT course might be five minutes, so every shot is effectively a first shot.
I'm sure Yogi is right - if you keep shooting without allowing the seal time to cool, the 'new' POI will be maintained.
WARNING..........I've posted these experiences with my HW springers quite a few times so please feel free to ignore if desired! :)
Years ago I found that even shifts in atmospheric temperature during a shooting can shift the poi. In "US style hunter class field target" adjusting the scope during a match isn't allowed so all "aiming adjustments" are done using "holdover, holdunder, Kentuckey windage, etc". During an early spring FT match in Virginia the sight-in before the match was done during snow flurries but the temp rose to the mid 50s F during the match. About 3/4 through the 72 shot match both my brother and I started missing more target than usual. Aiming at leaves on the ground we found that our R9s had a 1" poi shift at only 20 yards so we used "holdoff aiming" to complete the match.
I theorized that the combination of piston seal durometer and lube viscosity thickening affecting the piston functioning was the reason for the poi shifting. I tested this theory decades ago by lathe cutting an aluminum piston cap that used a size 020 oring to do the sealing. The thought was that a 1/16" (1.8mm?) cross section oring getting compressed in the receiver would be less affected by these changes than a 10ish mm thick factory HW piston seal. My first attempt at an oring sealed piston cap was rather surprising because my velocity using the exact same spring and pellet increased 40fps, plus the poi shifting was greatly reduced. As a side note, at that time HW was using a seal with a "thin parachute edge" however over the years the HW factory seal has evolved to a "reduced seal skirt with thick rounded parachute sealing surface" (sealing similar to an oring shape). Testing the newer design HW piston seal I found similar performance to my oring sealed piston caps IF they fit the receiver properly. I also found that the fit of the later HW seals weren't very consistent and some fit loosely whereas other brand new seals fit properly. Another "issue" with the later HW seals which I never saw with the old thin edge parachute seal was piston seal face cracking............
(https://i.imgur.com/SJBTo92.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/kfIIHga.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/bwq77JQ.png)(https://i.imgur.com/LuCDbCj.jpg)
The following caps I made were simply 6061 T6 aluminum with a size 020 oring but a few years I added a Delrin bearing on the outside of the cap...........
(https://i.imgur.com/ap74tbS.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Zj5arzL.jpg)
My first oring sealed piston cap after a thousand shot testing. LOL, only some discoloration on the face of the adapter from using "dinosaur oil based molly lubes".........
(https://i.imgur.com/T0xKCEO.jpg)
I've nixed the diesel prone "dinosaur oil based" molly lubes for non-dieseling Dupont Krytox GPL205 "space station lube" and I've been using the oring seal + Krytox for several years and did some testing years ago. After moving to North Carolina over a decade ago a test was done during the winter to see how atmospheric temperatures affected the velocity of a Krytox lubed R9 with oring sealed piston cap. I left the .177 R9 in my unheated sun room over night so the gun temp dropped to upper 20s F, then shot a dozen pellets over the chrony sensors noting the velocity. Then I took the gun indoors over night so it would warm up into the 70s F and again quickly shot some pellet over the sensors. A bit to my surprise the velocity of the upper 20s F shots were about 10 fps higher than the shots with the same gun at 70s F.
More recently I did some shooting upstairs over two days. The 1st day I shot some "bucket and sticks groups", then the following day I shot some more groups without warm-up shots or re-zeroing" and here is a scan of the target.........
>(https://i.imgur.com/krGzp2L.jpg)
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I thought that my scoped HW30S had gone bananas yesterday. The shots were all over the place. I took her back out this morning and she hit the 25 and 30 yard spinner spoons shot after shot.
Yesterday, it was me not the gun or scope. Just sayin'....
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I thought that my scoped HW30S had gone bananas yesterday. The shots were all over the place. I took her back out this morning and she hit the 25 and 30 yard spinner spoons shot after shot.
Yesterday, it was me not the gun or scope. Just sayin'....
LOL....I resemble that! :) I've had the same thing happen when I blamed a "bad shooting day" on my equipment, however during the following night an unknown "airgun gnome" fixed my gun because "accuracy issues" certainly couldn't be due to this shooter! :o
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Electricity finally came back on in Tulsa, and I get to catch up on this thread. Lots of good input.
Bayman... My current breach seal in .173". I shaved another down to .170 as an experiment. Neither had barrel droop and both passed the tissue test. I gave up on the .170 version after one shooting session as the groups loosened up quite a bit. It wasn't satisfying and I did not spend enough time with it to see how it affected the poi shift. Also, Thanks to you (& Ed) for posting your targets. They are evidence that my POI shift is not the norm.
Jim, I have set the gun aside for 5 minutes, or maybe even 10, and the poi did not revert to "initial shots" poi. But it always reverts by the time I get back to the gun for a new session, about 24 hrs later. I'm going to try some more structured pauses, and see if I can fix the time it takes for poi to return to cold barrel status.
Thanks all for your comments. I love shooting this gun, and enjoy puzzles.
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Well you sure got one! ;D ;D ;D
-Y
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Well, after another 1000 shots and experimentation, I have reached a conclusion in this matter. Airnut's response called it first and called it right (shooter fatigue). And several others followed with similar assessments. So now I would like to change the thread subject to "this shooter good for 20 shots, give or take".
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Well, after another 1000 shots and experimentation, I have reached a conclusion in this matter. Airnut's response called it first and called it right (shooter fatigue). And several others followed with similar assessments. So now I would like to change the thread subject to "this shooter good for 20 shots, give or take".
LOL....this is why I normally use "5 shot groups".
If I use more than 5 shots in a group I'm mostly testing my "steadiness" rather than accuracy of my rig. Also, using a "bucket and sticks shooting form" for testing rather than "benching" is the norm for me and I don't use a shooting bench for squirrel hunting or field target matches.
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This was a great thread, maybe some of us learned a thing or two 😂 made me think about my own shooting experiences and how it made sense to me that, those days that I have problems hitting my goal, maybe it’s just because I’m tired and it’s not the gun! !
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I clean my .177 R9 and HW95 barrels when the accuracy "goes south" and after the bore cleaning my poi does move some till the bore gets "re-seasoned" after a couple dozen shots, then the poi remains consistent for another tin or two of pellets (perhaps 1000 shots) and the process of cleaning/seasoning the bore is repeated. If you're always shooting after a fresh bore clean perhaps you need to continue shooting after the bore is 'seasoned" and see if the poi is stabilized.
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Ditto here in NE CT USA. My 5 .177 Weihrauchs tell me when they need a barrel cleaning - usually after 400 or so shots (H&N FTTs) POI will shift erratically with each shot when lead and lube buildup occurs. I run a nylon brush dipped in Balistol once from breech to muzzle. Let it sit for 10 minutes. Then give it 5 or so passes and follow up with a rag patch or 2. I finish up by pulling an airgun bore snake (no bristles) through. Works for my guns. It does take approx. 10 shots after cleaning to get back to 1/2 inch / 25 yards centered POI. But like everyone else I do sometimes experience a slight POI shift with temp changes - usually a 2 or 3 click correction needed. All my scopes are Hawke Airmax or similar quality - nothing big bucks.
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400 pellets is awfully often! Maybe you should wash /lube your pellets. My bore easily last 5X that with JSB's. :-[
-Y
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I clean my .177 R9 and HW95 barrels when the accuracy "goes south" and after the bore cleaning my poi does move some till the bore gets "re-seasoned" after a couple dozen shots, then the poi remains consistent for another tin or two of pellets (perhaps 1000 shots) and the process of cleaning/seasoning the bore is repeated. If you're always shooting after a fresh bore clean perhaps you need to continue shooting after the bore is 'seasoned" and see if the poi is stabilized.
Ditto here in NE CT USA. My 5 .177 Weihrauchs tell me when they need a barrel cleaning - usually after 400 or so shots (H&N FTTs) POI will shift erratically with each shot when lead and lube buildup occurs. I run a nylon brush dipped in Balistol once from breech to muzzle. Let it sit for 10 minutes. Then give it 5 or so passes and follow up with a rag patch or 2. I finish up by pulling an airgun bore snake (no bristles) through. Works for my guns. It does take approx. 10 shots after cleaning to get back to 1/2 inch / 25 yards centered POI. But like everyone else I do sometimes experience a slight POI shift with temp changes - usually a 2 or 3 click correction needed. All my scopes are Hawke Airmax or similar quality - nothing big bucks.
[/quote]
My HW30 had to be cleaned about 1,500 shots. Sometime after 3,000 and the second cleaning, I ran some JB Bore paste thru it. I am now over 4,000 or so since then and have not had to clean it.
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400 pellets is awfully often! Maybe you should wash /lube your pellets. My bore easily last 5X that with JSB's. :-[
-Y
^truth^
Using quality pellets I seldom clean my barrels.
By the time you "lead "them back up, you are close to where you were before.
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400 pellets is awfully often! Maybe you should wash /lube your pellets. My bore easily last 5X that with JSB's. :-[
-Y
^truth^
Using quality pellets I seldom clean my barrels.
By the time you "lead "them back up, you are close to where you were before.
Hummmm.....for a couple decades I've been using the "most accurate pellet" for my HW springers (the now unobtanium 7.9 grain die lot marked and dated boxed Crosman Premiers) and sought ways to make them "less fouling".
Boxed CPLs.......
Anywhoo, as mentioned previously, I had "quick barrel fouling" issues with the hard lead CPLs till I started lubing the pellets with aerosol Slick50 One Lube and then the barrel cleaning chore was reduced to about once for each 1250 count box. The "boxed CPLs" have been discontinued so I'm currently testing out my H&N & AA offerings.....
(https://i.imgur.com/2PZynIi.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nauCLe1.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/t7myvjG.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/6jbM8Jw.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/gUXVZ3q.png)
H&N FTT 4.52mm however the Air Arms Dome 4.52mm is pretty good................
(https://i.imgur.com/0hbcMs2.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/JrW8TOJ.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/yFlQoyL.jpg)
LOL....whatever procedure works best for the individual shooter and gun is certainly the best approach!
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This subject sure hits home for me,so much good advice,one thing I notice is some HW springers are more prone to these problems than others.I also think when I first start shooting I always get great groups,so I say to myself," keep it up" , then things go bad from there,I get perturbed at the gun, and now I think it is ME!...I am trying too hard and not relaxing, tensing up without really thinking about it. I noticed when I adjust my trigger pull my groups change a little, which proves to me it is ME,...This HW50 is so sensitive it is like a crybaby, telling me to hold it just right, to pull the trigger just right, everything has to be just right," yes honey" whatever you like....what a pain, guess it makes me become a better gentleman,LOL.