GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Pelle on December 11, 2022, 12:29:55 AM
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My gunstore had another one put away for me. A great looking Crosman 600. He tells me what he recently found. A bottle leaked right out. He says its a first model and thinks it uses 12.5 gr and not 12 gr. He shows me some web pages that show 12.5 I never heard of that. I now see the loading pivot is open and doesnt seem to be able to pivot closed. Anything make sense?
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12.5 gram? Time for the myth busters?
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Cartridges that came with the S&W 78G were 12.5 gram however the 12 gram work fine in them. The original gun that first came out for the co2 cartridge was the Crosman 150 and 12gram cartridges work good in them, I don't know for sure
what the exact size of them was but modern cartridges all work fine in them ??? Not exactly sure about them but the ones that you buy today are the 12gram.
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Thanks I am learning from scratch on this as I did with all my finds, mostly from this store. I know I don't want to mess it up. The stuck loader is troubling
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I have a couple of Cr600s and they all work fine with the CO2 capsules available today, the 12 grams. Just to "spell it out", I have both first and second versions. Hopefully, the stuck loader is just accumulated grime and it can be soaked away.
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I found this helpful advice on my 600..
This is need to know for anyone that has a Crosman 600 IMO. This is an exact quote.
"It should definitely be checked out B4 any usage to make sure it is lubed correctly. The original lube has gone off and is granite like as well as the residue from Pellgunoil use has the thing so sticky it needs complete tear down and clean up before attempting to cycle the precision mechanism.
This gun can misfire on occasion and this indicates the feed mechanism is not properly adjusted or lubed. If it eats unavailable parts due to lack of proper set-up or lubrication this gun can render itself unrepairable due to the scarcity of parts for these old models.
1. Be gentle. Don't force anything. Always return the cocking slide to the forward position prior to firing pistol.
2. Gun must be cocked prior to charging.
3. Piercing cap on the majority of the models must be unscrewed 1/4 turn after tightening to pierce CO2. This lets the gas out.
4. You should always leave it charged but not cocked or loaded. Never let the pellet follower slam the back of the lead. I use my finger nail on the lip of the follower to Lower gently against the last pellet.
5. To store gun uncocked; Hold the cocking slide to the rear with left thumb (fingers Taco holding action top) while Pulling trigger with right finger and letting the slide gently forward releasing the hammer spring tension with your left thumb (don't drop it).
6. Always assume a semi-auto is loaded. It is so easy to get a pellet in the barrel it is silly on this thing so be realistic and cycle it with no pellets first (DUH! in a safe direction) to clear any misfires.
7. Try to avoid running out of gas mid magazine. Notice the audio report diminishing. Don't push it. Usually three full loads of the mag are all you'll get on a Hot Valve.
8. When you get low on your last CO2 don't fire it dry. Just put it away with the residual gas and go buy some more CO2.
9. Don't fire the hammer against an empty valve.
If a pellet gets hung in the loader you usually can cock the gun, pull back the magazine follower and you should be able to push the damaged pellet out of the loader. Removing the barrel is relatively easy and will clear most jams. Mark it before you remove it so you can get back to the sweet spot.
If the gun won't cock seek pro help. These guns tended to be problematic because they demanded to be used in an exact fashion or they would produce grief.
Never use pointed or hollow point ammo. The amount of loader abuse determines how thin it is and will prejudice certain guns toward certain ammo. Thin loaders Like Hobbies. Original width loved RWS Meisterkugeln. The more wear there is the more likely Domes will be the answer.
Experiment with a variety of average length domes and flats to find the pellet your gun likes. The majority of the guns shoot below 400 but a few shoot harder. Most of the modified guns we do shoot better than 400 fps and the 12" long custom barrel versions often hit 500+. Fun gun and very desirable when they work right. Definitely not for the ham-fisted but the fun quotient is way up there.
You must be able to read, understand and follow directions or this is not the gun for you. It is the antithesis of Idiot proof and requires a shooter with a bit of a compassion/accommodation for the mechanisms function."
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Thanks again to all, thats a good read. My flipper seems to be stuck internally. The slide thing moves back and forth but has no tension and doesnt seem to be doing anything. At least it looks nice and much better than pics. I tweaked the pics that were kinda dark and it looks worn but its all an even black
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If the cocking slide has no resistance, likely the action is stuck in the cocked position due to dried-up oil in the trigger mechanism. Obviously with no gas in the gun, remove the grips, take off the panel on RH side that covers the innards (cautiously as one hairpin spring may fly away), then use solvent and/or remove the bits to clean them well. I've seen this on many 600's. Note that when the action is cocked, the loading arm is held in the open position waiting to be moved after the trigger is pulled.
Since your gun apparently leaks, you'll be disassembling the main tube to clean and lube everything inside during seal replacement.
Don R.
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I like that model with the button safety instead of the finger slicer safety. Be careful how push in the plunger when you pierce the cartridge! If the gun malfunctions or you forgot to cock the slide first the gun may go off into your hand. Caution! Best to unload it if it runs out of co2 with pellets in the magazine.
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well it looks l have a winner. I decided to remove the grip and sideplate and found it clean looking and dry. I blasted the parts with brake cleaner and pried one of the parts and it fired. More cleaner and lubed it all with my secret sauce, in this area. I knew it would be gummed and locked up. Dropped several drops of the other sauce on the screen and pivot area. I cocked and fired her up. Leaked out but fired and cycled several times, empty. Only kidding around except for the firing. Thanks a bunch as I was lost as is evident. It was leaking from the pivot area. How scary for me to attempt?
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Hoping for a 2nd miracle. Really dropped the Secret Sauce down her throat and loaded her up. Its sitting, muzzle up and ready to pierce. Maybe it will seal itself lol
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Hoping for a 2nd miracle. Really dropped the Secret Sauce down her throat and loaded her up. Its sitting, muzzle up and ready to pierce. Maybe it will seal itself lol
This is where a bulk fill adapter comes in handy. You don't have to waste a cartridge. Heat your gun up nice and toasty before you try it. Worked for me before.
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Oh well no miracle. I didnt know/read about the heat. It didnt do as well as the last cartridge. No pressure, probably due to the oil, but it does cycle nicely,by hand. I will take it slow and dig in.
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Here's a couple of helpful links
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121809.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121809.0)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121810.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121810.0)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121811.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121811.0)
Service Manual pages
http://www.airgunartisans.com/CR600.htm (http://www.airgunartisans.com/CR600.htm)
Use the pen as described
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129067.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129067.0)
Between Wyoman's links and the service manual pages working on a C600 is merely tedious, not daunting.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the links and everyones tips. I tried 2 more bottles with empty gun and its back to cycling. I am getting maybe 10 shots and a funny sounding last pop and empty.The leaks persist. I am thinking of a blanket test cause a tissue won't hold up.
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A lot of reading on this before the big operation. I just figured maybe getting this thing "toasty warm". More Sauce down the, well oiled gun, and got it, really warm, with the ole heat gun. Pushed the cap and got silence. I got a low pop on the now loaded pistol and no dropping feral cans. A few minutes later, I blasted a hole through a garbage can from a hidden pellet. Made that safety work a lot better, not that it caused a ND, and took aim at 3, back to back, feral, aluminum cans and it now sounds like a .22 (real). I want to leave it pressured or I would fire more and be fully confident that it cycles with pellets. I appreciate all the help, once again, it made me a happy and surprised pelleteer.
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Still no targets but this gun has serious power and cycles nicely. It took another bottle with still no leaks. After making sure of no hidden pellets I felt the pretty large blast of gas at the loader but a huge blast out the barrel. This is great.
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With no Co2 and the C600 unloaded, I suggest that you check the barrel/load arm gap with a feeler gauge. If it greater than .0035", loosen the set screw that holds the barrel and use .0025" shims to set the gap. By the the time you wrestle the .0025" shim(s) the gap will be about .003" The smaller gap will increase velocity and shot count per cartridge.
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Another great tip I had no idea. I am sure to investigate but there is a very strong blast from the barrel even now. The shot count went from maybe 5 to it seems like 25 when I cycled it into the trashcan. It may have an issue with trigger engagement after first pulling the trigger and nothing happened and again after remembering to cock it lol. I thought it had leaked out from setting a couple days. Not the case though, at all. There was a lever thing that extended up into the valve area that was very sharpened and worn. It looked like someone had filed it, a lot. I cant see any part that is shaped like it in the drawing. This was under the plate when first looking and ungumming her up
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Every one of my Crosman vintage pistols I bought needed a complete teardown when I got them, after the first couple I bought I expected it. I did buy them all on ebay too, and most of them came NY areas too, I think that a lot of the old guns like that were tucked away in storage for a long time and will make it hard taking them apart but once I got them apart I was able to completely restore them all.
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At least no gas leaks at all. I finally blasted a few pellets, for kinda real at a heavy can half filled with screws or something. Not the damage I hoped for but ok. The trigger went limp a few times and I needed to fool with the charger slide. It had a couple good runs thou. I just spread some lithium grease around under the sideplate and it seems good. A barrel hex screw is there but the barrel looks like its very thick with no way to move it. As to a teardown, I don't have a great record and often can't get the last.01% after seemingly doing well
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Just keep plugging away, grateful to be on the outside of this thing. With the links etc. I figure out the barrel does move and a little rod moves back and forth to hold the pivot that fell out when loosening set screw. The pivot pellet hole was beat up and burr-ey. I cleaned it up and set a .025 +/- gap. I used a rod to line up the pivot if that is happening assuming some leeway with the one set screw. I think there are two on some models. It hand cycles very smoothly now. I fired a few today and had to remove beat up and stuck pellets in the pivot. This seemed to keep it out of battery and wouldnt fire. It did shoot a few in a row and I think will be better now.
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I think you mean to say you set the barrel to give a feed arm gap of .0025 rather than .025? The fact that you have only one setscrew holding the arm in place will not affect its function (short-term anyway), note that it sets into a divot in the cam rod - the second screw is only there to lock the first one against loosening in use.
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You are correct, Sir, .0025. A cam rod, gonna remember that. If this goes with improved function, I will locktite it. I saw and used the divot and glad it was locked in place from rotation.
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I'd be cautious with loctite. You might need to disassemble it to clear a jam. I have once or twice over a few thousand pellets.
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Its nice to know it can come apart, It seems strange that it doesnt open enough to knock a deformed pellet out. I probably will use some blue on it. There is my heatgun that sealed it up, extremely nicely, if needed.
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Well I am concerned on the health of my heatgun. Yesterday I went thru a few half mag loads with no failures at all. I left her uncharged and not in the cold. I wanted to put a couple drops in and it dumped the whole,new, cartridge out the barrel. I did not cock it it first and when I did, after another heat treatment it appears fine again. Is this a big reason to cock before charging?
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In my limited experience... yes.
Mine dumped cart after cart when I got it.
But being the head strong duff that I am I kept oiling a fresh cart and trying again.
Eventually she came around. I must cock it before inserting a new oiled cart, and it only feeds wad-cutters consistently.
But that is good enough for me. ;)
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If its good good enough for Scott and my little miss Crosman, its plenty good for me and hopefully never forget the lesson
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Well I forgot the lesson and had only a tiny leak. More importantly, I see there is two set screws on the pivot. I thought a second one would be locking in the main one from a ninety degree angle. WRONG. Its good now. Gun works great and got my blow-by down by 75%. Serious power now and my first PA order in before Tues. YAY German pellets and Happy New Year :D :D
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Oh yeah works great :'( :'(.. So my 600 was charged from a couple days ago but was empty when testing, today. I drew down on the basement target and got nothing. A new cartridge began moderately leaking from the cap. I guess an O ring let go due to recent and ongoing freezing figuring this new gun out. I have several new rings and hope its the large one. It did shoot a very small 2 shot group
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My cap didnt want to come apart too easily so I just cleaned some junk around it and the thread grits that look like it kept the cap from fully seating. A new cartridge seems tight but will check and report in a day or 2 lol
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Not sure where all my new dirt came from but my cap seems all pressurized and waiting for, weekend, club opening. Some neighbors hate the place from a mile away and the club bigshots are total fascists who would go ballistic shooting on a closed range with a bb gun.
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I wasted precious gas again going to range.The thing was totally gasless. Does anyone know how to get my cap apart? I managed the spring clip and the screw in at the piercer but see no way to get this apart to get the small ring. The main oring did need replacement so its back together now and charged and quiet.
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Hi Rocky,
You don't need to remove the spring clip, just the retainer. You may already know this by now?....
(https://i.imgur.com/zNBp0ub.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DXEW5Kf.jpg)
Just pry out (or dig out if it's completely oxidized) the old o-ring and replace with a new 005. I use cast urethane in 70D. A little more money but I'll spend the nickel.
Use some light-weight oil (e.g. 20wt ND) when you install the new o-ring and keep it oiled periodically for proper maintenance - hth
Wyo
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Thanks Gary, I was there after making a tool to get that retainer out. The seal looked good but now I will know what to do.
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Another weekend coming up and it looks like success after 3 or 4 failed attempts. My cap doesnt want to move which is good and, unlike me, in that position.
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My pistol held strong and seemed to be functioning but the new Miester klunker pellets immediately jammed by half coming out the loading hole. I loaded her up with some heavy Gamo semi domed pellets for another test. Only 8 now (pellets)
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Well that didnt go at all but some Crosmans HPs fired with no trouble. I have a working gun
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I found a new package of Crosman 14.3 Premiers. Its a new look at WM but the domed hollow point is definitely the pellet for this. Both the new look and old cycle perfectly. I never considered these but see it mentioned in a search
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Lucky!!!!
My 600 only feeds wadcutters. ::)
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I got very lucky on this one. If let to my own devices it would be forever in pieces. Thanks for always moving me along, as well as the many others that help. Time for accuracy testing now. All charged up and ready
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I got off 1 pellet at the range and a bunch of squibs. My outer set screw on the flipper seemed tight but the bottom one was loose and it sure looked like the flipper wasnt lining up right and no pellets would feed. A $10 trip to O'riellys got me the (seemingly smaller) small tube of blue locktite.
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Not sure if my flipper was ever locked down right, at least after I got it. It was a hassle but I think its locked down into the right spot and locktited the outer screw down. I finally looked closely on the correct depth of these setscrews.
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Shes running now
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Running at 100% 24/7 now that the pivot is locked down. I suspect that the SWC will work now, again but I have stayed with the Crosmans, for now.