GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Czech & Russian Air Guns => Topic started by: Toxylon on July 22, 2022, 02:10:22 PM
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Recently, I picked up an almost unused Baikal MP513M .22 cal, for well under one half of retail price, shipping and soft gun case included. I just had to take up on the offer, given that the model seems to have been discontinued, and the fact that there are fewer and fewer guns fitting my springer preferences (wood stock, open sights that can actually be used, .22 cal and up, 18 fpe and up) available each year.
FWIW, I would never buy a new Russian gun and finance the current regime; in this case the money went to a fellow airgunner a couple of counties over.
Grabbing the new gun for a look is a trip onto itself. Basically everything about the MP513M is different from Western springers.
One first notices the lack of weight. At a little under 3 kg (just under 6.6 lbs.), this is a featherweight magnum, even compared to the skinny plastic Gamo magnums.
The amply proportioned birchwood (!) stock is lightly stained and coated with a high-gloss finish, both untypical for springers. There is no checkering, but none feels needed, either. The quality of woodwork and wood finish is better and more precise than on Gamos or Chinese guns, maybe even a bit better than on Hatsans.
The front stock screws have not been countersunk into the wood, as usual; instead, they stand well proud of the stock surface, on large conical washers.
The pivot bolt with a large Phillips head goes straight through the receiver and breech block into a nut on the other side, with a bunch of stacked star washers on both sides providing tension.
The aluminum (!) receiver isn’t blued (I don’t think that’s even possible, given the material), but finished with a finely stippled, coal-black coating (not Parkerized, as that doesn’t work on aluminum, either). A tapered plastic end plug of a matching color and texture sits at the back of the receiver.
The incredibly skinny .22 cal barrel (OD just 13.1 mm / 0.52”) is fitted into a massively long breech block. The barrel assembly has a black finish that I’m not quite sure of the type.
The comb-less birchwood stock fits me quite well, and importantly, the open sights line up automatically; this isn’t an open sights gun in theory only, unlike many present-day Weihrauchs, some Gamos etc. The 350mm (13.8”) LOP is about 10mm shorter than my preference.
There is a thin, hard-plastic butt pad on the MP513. Shouldering the gun, the pad started immediately skidding on my T-shirted shoulder, not good. Hard, solid plastic is also a poor choice for an ultralight magnum with plenty of kick n’ shake. I guess this is how Baikal has always done airgun butts, and it’s certainly a cost-effective solution. A grippy, squishy, ventilated rubber replacement is needed here, though. It will also bring the needed 10mm of extra LOP.
Cocking the MP513M is different from anything I’ve used before: the moment you break the barrel, an anti-bear trap ratchet is engaged. This will stop the barrel at any point of the cocking stroke.
Bringing the barrel all the way down (a moderate effort, and a surprisingly short stroke, given the reportedly long piston stroke), loading the gun and closing the action isn’t enough to make a shot. A large, vertical slit at the back of the receiver contains a spring-loaded hammer that you need to cock for the automatic safety to disengage. Things really are different in the east!
The trigger of my MP513M was adjusted by a gunsmith, according to the first owner, from the reportedly extremely heavy factory setting. Now, the trigger has a very short and light first stage, and a very light pull to break. Far better than an ultra-heavy trigger, nonetheless this needs to be dialed back for a bit more weight to fit my preferences.
When the Baikal goes off, it freaks out like a wild bronco: kicking, shaking, twanging and banging like no other gun of mine. Tell tale signs of a low mass, high-power gun of not too tight tolerances. With this gun, I learned you can even hurt your trigger finger with the dose o' dynamite if you are not careful.
More to come.
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The back sight is very military-like; it works, and has a wide range of adjustments, but apparently ZERO thought went into how it looks. These kinds of things you only notice when they’re not there.
The plastic front sight tunnel is twice as long as customary. This is due to the very simple yet functional “sandwich fit” of the separate front bead element, which sports a long, rectangular post.
Unlike any other budget springer I know of, the MP513M is tapped for a moderator. However, due to the extra forward length of the front sight tunnel, Western style moderators don’t fit there. The tap isn’t quite ½” UNF, either (I don’t know what it is).
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There is no breech seal on the breech face; it is located at the end of the compression tube, instead, like on some old BSA’s. The breech seal is very small, much smaller than in any springer I’ve seen.
There is a thin, hard-plastic butt pad on the MP513. Shouldering the gun, the pad started immediately skidding on my T-shirted shoulder, not good. Hard, solid plastic is also a poor choice for an ultralight magnum with plenty of kick n’ shake. I guess this is how Baikal has always done airgun butts, and it’s certainly a cost-effective solution. A grippy, squishy, ventilated rubber replacement is needed here, though. It will also bring the needed 10mm of extra LOP.
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A large, vertical slit at the back of the receiver contains a spring-loaded hammer that you need to cock for the automatic safety to disengage. Things really are different in the east!
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I started breaking in the MP513.
On a new gun, I first usually do the Medina barrel seasoning procedure, or shoot tight-fitting quality pellets and pull dry patches in a pattern before cleaning the barrel any. Before I got this gun, it had cycled about 50 RWS Hobbys by the previous owner. Now it was my turn to shoot 80 Silverpoints while pulling dirty, but progressively less so, patches.
The MP513 is very easy to cock; 80 shots at a pretty fast clip while sitting down was nothing, as far as effort goes. Hard to believe this is a 30J+ magnum.
As mentioned, the MP513 barrel is extremely thin: grabbing it for cocking feels like grabbing a child’s finger. As soon as the barrel is broken, an anti-beartrap mechanism is activated. It makes a mellow ‘ratatata’ -sound as the barrel goes down.
Somewhat hair-raisingly, there is zero sensation or sound indicating that the gun cocks: even when you reach the end of the possible barrel travel, there is no hint that the sear has engaged. Releasing some of the pressure and allowing the barrel to spring back a little, the sear catches the piston “out of thin air”. HUH!
The usually tight-fitting Silverpoints go deep into the MP513 breech, with a slight snap. The pellets automatically end up deep enough for leaving some 1.5mm of the breech cone wall visible. I’ve never had a breech cone like this.
The first 100 shots emitted a strong dieseling smell from the bore. Even this smell is something bizarre: I swear it has a tinge of cheap cologne among the stench of burnt oil!
The anti-beartrap ratchet works a bit too eagerly: on a couple of shots, a slight backwards movement of the barrel by me on closing it dynamically caused the ratchet to re-engage, which meant having to re-cock the already cocked gun, as there’s apparently no way back outside of that.
The flimsy safety hammer sometimes releases (re-engages), if I initiate the trigger pull in a certain way. In a sense, this rough and ready Boreal breakbarrel needs a tender touch, due to these alien additions to a proven, foolproof concept. Complexity's a bane...
Taking the heavy-recoil, super-lively 30J Russian Magnum to the chrono yielded a surprise: the Baikal shoots at 16J / 12 fpe level!!!
I know for a fact this gun was originally sold by the local importer as a 240 m/s / 32J model, but the chrono tells me this little-used gun produces little over one half of that – like it was made for the British market!
Small wonder the cocking effort was so low. On the other hand, it is hilarious how much outright violence can be packed into this 12 fpe gun’s shot cycle.
Getting to know this gun has been like a trip to a far-flung exotic land where no-one speaks a language you know. Now this purchase is also an immediate fixer upper. C’est la vie.
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That's a slick looking Baikal you have !
And pretty rare to get as well. Even SWS in Germany does not sell, while they have a lot of Baikal's in their portfolio available.
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Thanks, Rudy!
I've heard mostly good things about this freak-of-a-spring gun, from Tom Gaylord on up. Reportedly, these are actually accurate out to respectable distances. This is why I'm going to invest more time and effort on mine, no matter how bad the gal's behaving so far.
Can't help but be a little smitten with the Kalashnikov / ten feet of snow / wolves howling in the Taiga associations of the Northern birch, Ural steel and cologne-laced factory lube Baikal.
I'll have to figure out a replacement mainspring, for starters. I reckon one of the longer / longest Titans might fit, with a custom spring guide, of course.
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Thanks, Duke
Informative and entertaining.
The breech looks like it was shaped with a file. The breech cone looks almost as rough. Is the rifling polygonal? If the gun does not shoot well, I would be tempted to due a "crowning job" on the breech to make it more crisp. I would not change the angle of the breech cone, or drag along the lands just inside the bore...
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Thank you for the detailed write up. I've been curious about the Eastern block springers for some time. I hope you'll update us about its accuracy and internals if you do any work on it.
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Thanks, Subs & Dan!
I'll take the breech finessing suggestions to heart.
For sure I'll document my findings and doings here. I have an inkling it will be a wild journey through and through.
It may well take some time, given I have plenty of springers and little time. The good thing about online forums, as opposed to social media (arguably a different realm), is that discussions and threads remain intact & accessible, to be added in, or re-checked any time down the line.
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Hi Duke, very nice rifle you got there sir! :D I have an older IJ22 and an MP-53M pistol from Baikal, love them both!
If the ratcheting anti-beartrap is similar to the one in my pistol, a little polish and moly lube job is all it takes to smooth it to a decent level.
Also, if I visually compare the muzzle threads to the barrel on your rifle, I'd guess these are M10 x 1 thread pitch. The Russians use the metric system, why I find it plausible that these threads are metric.
HTH, and have fun!
Francois
Edit: I think this is a hammer-forged, polygonal-rifling barrel huh? :D
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Thanks, Francois!
I'll take your helpful pointers to heart. I'm kinda debating myself if I continue the break-in and see where it goes, or open this gal up and make things right. It's obvious from the terrible shot cycle that surfaces need to mate, sharp angles need to go blunt, loose connections need to tighten up etc. etc.
Haven't looked into the bore yet - one more thing to do.
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Very cool find.The only Baikal I have now is a MP-53M break barrel .177 single shot springer pistol. I use to have their IZH61 sidelever. The front sight on it was identical to the one on you rifle. Bought both new from PA years ago. In the original box they both came with a metal cleaning rod with a hole for a patch on one end and the other end twisted into an oval shaped handle.
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Thanks, Tim
This gun was also supplied with a cleaning rod like yours, forged and hardened steel of a fireplace poker style. Wouldn't dream of using that on the soft, delicate airgun bores!
Also supplied was a replacement mainspring (quite canted and with irregular pitch, so like a heavily used spring straight off factory, and 16J, I presume), a replacement piston seal, a conical alternative muzzle piece for scope use, and two small ball bearings (I suppose for the safety hammer).
I hear Baikal stopped giving away such maintenance sets a good 10 years back, which indirectly dates my gun.
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She looks quite nice. Much better than I would of expected from Russian factories.
Is she accurate? No breach seal, I would assume that this is the "weak link"? :-[
30mm comp tube?
-Y
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No breach seal, I would assume that this is the "weak link"? :-[
Looking only the pictures creates a tendency to miss pertinent details:
There is no breech seal on the breech face; it is located at the end of the compression tube, instead, like on some old BSA’s.
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Yes, the (tiny) breech seal is at the end of the receiver. My Hurricane 1250 has the same configuration, as I'm sure some other more or less antiquated British springers. Kinda striking at first look, but logically, the sealing capability doesn't care on which side the seal goes.
Haven't shot the Baikal for accuracy yet. Too many guns, too little time...
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I just purchased this model from Dennis Baker, condition: "Untested"
Not sure what I'll find when it arrives.
Is there a source for parts for these rifles?
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Ron,
I just spent 20 minutes looking for parts for the 513, and it seems you may find some in Europe. The few I found on ebay stated they do not ship to the US (from Russia). I would check back on ebay as something is likely to pop up from time to time.
Parts for this air rifle seems scare, compared to the Baikal MP46 M SSP pistol, for example.
Along the way, I found some info that might be useful in the future:
https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-1.html (https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-1.html)
https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html (https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-3.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-3.html)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/reassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/reassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html)
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Ron,
I just spent 20 minutes looking for parts for the 513, and it seems you may find some in Europe. The few I found on ebay stated they do not ship to the US (from Russia). I would check back on ebay as something is likely to pop up from time to time.
Parts for this air rifle seems scare, compared to the Baikal MP46 M SSP pistol, for example.
Along the way, I found some info that might be useful in the future:
https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-1.html (https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-1.html)
https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html (https://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-3.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/disassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-3.html)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/reassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/reassembling-izh-baikal-513m-part-2.html)
WOW! Thanks for all the great info!
I do not know if or shat this rifle may need...
Dennis stated that it was untested, so, who knows?
I wouldn't think he would have had it if it was working properly.
Maybe I will need to put my thinking cap on if it needs repair.
It appears to be in good shape, so, for what I paid, if I cannot get 'er goin', it will make a great wall hanger!
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To me "untested" does not imply "used". If it is used and untested, then it is a 50/50 proposition. Else, it is simply old new stock. Probably just as fine as it ever was.
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Picked up one of these air rifles at the Texas Air Gun Show. Everything the op said is true except mine is a handful to cock. It sends Crosman hp's out at 1020 to 1040 fps. Never shot an air gun with so much recoil. At least as much as a 22 lr if not more. Fair accuracy for as jumpy as it is.
Pat
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Recently, I took my Baikal apart, to start making it right. As a quick reminder, the almost-unused, supposedly 32J / 23+ fpe magnum springer produced a measly 16J / 12 fpe, coupled with the worst shot cycle I’ve experienced.
I had checked with the importer that there had not been a severely detuned version of the Baikal for sale here some 10 years back: no, there hadn’t, then or now.
As if the gun hadn’t been a wild ride so far, the exotic-bordering-on-bizarre continued through the teardown & build-up.
I removed the birchwood stock to find neatly routed inletting and an anti-beartrap rack that doubled as the rearmost stock screw’s base.
The front stock screw holes, shabbily non-centered, have silicone-type plastic bushings, to obviously make the gun behave (yeah right).
The barrel is attached to the aluminum receiver by a bolt, nut and a bunch of cupcake cup-like star washers on both sides. The receiver forks are not threaded for the bolt, as the aluminum wouldn’t take it; the bolt goes straight through the forks and simply squeezes them from the outside. The curious shape of the washers serves the same preserving principle; ordinary star washers would quickly chew the aluminum forks around the pivot holes.
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To take the barrel all the way off there was some intricate anti-bear-trap mechanism dismantling to do. An extra point for the Baikal airgun division for lubing critical points here with moly. In contrast, at the breech block shims there was only a small amount of semi-caked machine grease present, an insufficient lubing for this major part / function.
The Baikal sports a massive TP, 5mm in diameter. In a heavy magnum gun, such a large TP is recipe for a slammy action. A tiny 8mm breech seal is countersunk into the receiver front, with the TP in center.
The trigger block / plastic end plug is attached to the receiver with two small screws. This fixture does not retain the mainspring. The mainspring is contained by two short, knurled, stepped pins on each side of the receiver, instead of several full-length pins as usual. The steep slant of the short pins illustrates the mainspring’s force on them, and does not look right or especially secure, even as they function as intended.
When you take the mainspring off an MP513, be prepared to hear the sound of tiny ball bearings rolling down the receiver tube, and onto the table / floor / carpet weave. After hunting those down, you pull on the piston to extract it. But the piston’s latch rod tip drops off like a rotted tooth, having lost it’s bearings. The latch rod is hollow, and houses a spring-loaded, ball-retained steel tip that acts as a sear in the trigger system. Only Russians come up with stuff like this!
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There’s a thrust washer against the mainspring at the rear guide base, as on most any springer. But in the Baikal, there’s a silicone-type soft plastic washer under a steel washer, with a similar double setup in front of the spring, inside the piston. It was no doubt designed to make the gun shoot smoother, but failed miserably. Or maybe the Baikal would actually break finger bones when shooting, if it weren’t for the cushioning?
The steel thrust washer, sitting on soft plastic, has been bent out of shape from shooting the gun only about 200 times. The washer is simply too thin and soft for this application, and needs to go. The top washer in the piston is also bent, but not close to the same degree.
The mainspring has heavy 3.55mm wire, 37 coils, 22.6mm OD - it is a magnum spring alright, but shoots like a mild medium one. The spring exhibits quite a bit of cant, even this early into use. The mainspring ends have been left completely unfinished.
In contrast to my findings this far, the precisely machined steel rear guide of the Baikal is a thing to behold, alongside its matching steel base block - almost Victorian in spirit. I’ve never been transfixed by the internals of springers, but now that’s changed.
Be that as it may, the rear guide fits loosely inside the mainspring. This is certainly a big part of the insane amount of twang and mechanical noise this gun exhibits, at just 12 fpe. The guide OD, 15.4mm, matches the ID of the mainspring, so on paper, it’s designed right. In practice, the guide should be maybe 0.05mm thicker to actually grab the spring.
With the multi-part, machined steel guide block assemblage, I feel there’s simply too much interacting metal in there, creating unneccessary mechanical noise in this lightweight magnum. Lots of this type of Rococo in the Baikal, where simpler, more straight-forward solutions would have not only sufficed, but been superior.
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The Baikal piston has a worrisomely loose construction at first sight: in a removed piston, the piston latch rod flails about listlessly, while the piston front has easily 1mm of play between its layers. Apparently, this is designed in, and once armed, everything tensions into duty as it should.
The 28mm piston seal is made of soft, loose, semi-clear plastic, and sports a very thin (1mm wide) parachute lip. The material and design make this seal easier to install than any I have installed before. But I can’t help but think a stiffer material and a heavier-lipped design would work better in this magnum.
The piston seal lip face is covered in silvery moly, telling how the factory lube job had bled into the front of the piston seal, as shown pre-teardown by the heavy dieseling. The seal face also has two large imprints, matching the size and location of the TP. The massive TP should make for a slammy gun, so no surprises there.
The measured 12 fpe output is still something of a mystery. As mentioned, the mainspring is of a heavy, 3.5mm wire, in one piece and shows just some canting, not really diminished pitch. The replacement spring provided with the gun is similar, only some 17mm longer, from lack of set.
In my experience, moderately fatigued mainsprings shoot measurably slower than pristine ones, but not anywhere near the roughly 200 fps missing in this Baikal.
As the supplied replacement spring isn’t appreciably different from the factory-installed spring, I don’t see how switching the springs would yield a meaningful improvement.
Looking into possible aftermarket mainsprings, there aren’t too many candidates to choose from; the Baikal spring is very large. In the Titan XS selection, #14, or the replacement spring for the 350 Mag / Webley Patriot is the only one sized close to right, especially in the critical ID.
I have some Titan springs at home, luckily a #14, as well. Testing its fit onto the Baikal rear guide, the first end was just as loose as the Baikal springs. The other, however, was appropriately tight!
As the rear guide thrust washer was mangled, I drilled out, leveled and polished a hardened steel washer 2.2mm thick and fitted it onto the guide base, without the silicone-type soft washer which I consider useless if not harmful.
I didn’t have a good replacement for the mainspring front washer in the piston, and didn’t want to introduce any extra preload to the already-long Titan, so I hammered the factory washer flat again, polished it some, and put it in, also without the plastic washer.
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I degreased and deburred the Baikal. Filing and sanding the aluminum receiver’s cutouts was a quick job.
Testing the dry piston fit in the dry compression chamber, I was surprised to witness the piston with the factory seal on dropping to the bottom of the chamber under its own weight. Instantly, this was a contributor to the 50 % reduced output; an undersized, leaky seal would also explain much of the terrible shot cycle.
The factory seal measured 28.1mm in OD, which was clearly not enough with a soft, flexible design such as this. The replacement seal that came with the gun measured 0.1mm larger, and fit the chamber much more tightly, registering around 3# of pressure to move.
Before piston insertion, I had to “arm” the piston latch rod with the moving, spring-loaded tip plus the infamous ball bearings. There was a plastic collar on the lower latch rod that was meant to be slid over the ball bearings to keep them in place during reassembly. When the mainspring would be inserted, the rear guide would engulf the latch rod tip, push the plastic collar off, and contain the ball bearings within (see pic, if you can make it out).
I lubed the piston bearing surfaces with a small amount of high-moly Honda 77 lube and inserted the piston, moving it back and forth in the chamber 20 times to spread the goods.
I lubed the mainspring rear guide and the thrust washers, plus the rear guide base with a little clear tar, and inserted the works into the receiver.
Then I hooked the receiver onto my spring compressor, dialed in the correct settings and started to squeeze the Titan and all the machined steel inside and behind it in. As the compression passed the midpoint, I heard the sound of tiny ball bearings dropping inside the receiver…
For some reason, the plastic collar on the latch rod had moved before the rear guide had secured the ball bearings. There was nothing to do but unwind the compressor, take out the mainspring AND the already-lubed and seated piston, and start assembling the moving latch rod tip again, with the piston lube job now compromised, as the piston seal would scoop up lube with re-insertion to diesel away in front of the seal. Grrrr!!!
A second attemp at reassembly failed the exact same way, even though logic told me it should not be possible. The distances and relationships inside the assembled power plant are fixed, and should not be affected by length of mainspring etc. The plastic collar should be able to only move off when the rear guide tip pushes it, at the same time necessarily taking in the ball bearings.
I did a dry run with the factory spring. The assembly went perfectly, ball bearings keeping in place. The only immediately obvious variable was that the fatigued factory spring had almost zero preload and a very soft character, while the Titan had ample preload and lots of resistance to compression.
I figured the Titan maybe buckled ever so slightly that a coil ahead of the rear guide pushed the collar off prematurely.
I started to think I needed to fashion an extra-long collar of the right ID and wall thickness, and use it to keep the ball bearings secured for the Titan. Before going there, I decided to do one more try with the factory collar, concentrating on the critical phase of “rear guide tip meets collar”:
Staring at the collar through the cocking slot, I screwed the mainspring in until the rear guide tip approached the collar to striking distance. It felt like monitoring a spacecraft landing.
I then proceeded to turn the compressor screw extra long and steady without any pause, to overcome the collar and capture the ball bearings in one smooth movement. That did the trick: the Titan went in all the way, and there were no nasty sounds of ball bearings on the move.
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There was still a couple of potential traps waiting for the Baikal apprentice: the rear block is symmetrical in that it can be rotated 180 degrees to either side and still fit in the receiver and the junk before it just fine. But the screw holes for the trigger block in the rear block aren’t centered, and if care is not taken, the rear block goes the wrong way in without a hitch, and the holes won’t line up with the trigger block. Again, this means de-tensioning, ball bearings dropping, piston removal and latch rod re-building. Tuner beware!
The trigger itself needed careful spring-loaded pin re-locating and such for the trigger block to be able to go in place. Freakishly, the front trigger adjustment screw rests on the outside wall of the receiver tube on the assembled and fitted gun. Like some other areas of the Russian gun, it looks totally wrong but works.
Sweat on my brow, I plowed on with the reassembly, fixing the intricate anti-beartrap sears, springs and hooks, lubing the breech block and its shims, fitting the barrel, and the stock.
With the Baikal back in one piece, the first test shot was filled with hope and trepidation: would the bizarre gun latch, hold and release properly? Would everything work as it should?
The soft cocking action of before was replaced by a very heavy, H135-level effort, amplified by the super-skinny MP513 barrel. The Baikal cocked, and with cocking the safety and pulling the trigger, proceeded to send a heavy Silverpoint pellet away in a desperate hurry. The gun's shot cycle was still very manly, but already much more mannered than before.
As of today, the MP513 waits for the right slot of time to start breaking in the barky beast with the new guts!
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Mr. Duke,
Thank you for the detailed write-up!
My 513 is due here today.
Hopefully it will cock and fire, and if it does I just may leave it at that.......
I'm still getting my feet wet inside springers, and the Baikal appears to be way more complicated than those that I have worked on so far....
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Ron,
Yeah, having been in maybe a dozen different springer configurations (and some 20 individual guns), I'd rate the Baikal among the very hairiest to work on. Kinda like learning the Russian language.
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Я не говорю и не понимаю русского языка
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My 513 arrived today.
Nice clean un...only a small pattern indented into the stock that may steam out....
And.....IT SHOOTS !!!
1001fps Daisy .177 7.87gr wadcutters for a 17.48fpe.
Grindy,crunchy cocking and kicks like a mule.....almost like a Mosin Nagant..........
I think that I may leave it as is.......
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My only experience with Baikal is with their IZH-27 "Scatter gun" at the skeet range...
Mine is built like a Russian Tank and as dependable as a anvil!
This thread makes be want an Air Rifle from them just to dig into!
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Scott,
You're not the only one. This is a terrible gun...Terribly addictive!
Here's a quote from an MP513M owner from the Yellow Forum, some 15 years back:
"Recoil is unlike anything I've ever had in an airgun and harsher than 99% of the cartridge guns and muzzleloaders I've had in the past. I don't shoot it that much but there are times when I just HAVE to shoot it and I don't feel that way about any of my other airguns. Hard to explain and kind of wierd."
I feel exactly the same. The Baikal calls me, almost all the time. That's a solid endorsement right there.
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Duke,
I think the loose piston seal was responsible for the power loss. The new seal with a bit of drag should make a massive improvement.
As for recoil, try shooting the gun held in only two hands at about waist height (into a trap or berm). Watch to see how far back and forth it moves. Then try for with very light hold on the shoulder - the opposite of what one does with a hard kicking rifle or shotgun.
I understand that this Baikal is very light. My Diana 350 Magnums are heavier, but produce 20+ FPE. I don't notice recoil with them, until I shoulder them firmly, as if they are a 12 gauge shotgun. Held that firmly against the shoulder, they actually hurt to shoot. Held lightly against the shoulder, the 350s vibrate, but do not "kick" at all. Hence, what I would suggest you try with the Baikal.
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Duke,
Do you happen to have a close up picture of the latch and wheels for the bear trap? I think mine was missing one of the wheels and it doesn't want to work right. I have taken it off for now but I do still have the parts.
Thanks,
Pat
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Subs,
The piston seal is a factor (and not just in fit, but material and design), but the mainsprings are too: they are canted off the factory, of a visibly poor quality, and the cocking effort is nowhere near what a 32 J magnum should have. With the supplied springs, the 32J isn't going to happen with any piston seal.
I've yet to find a replacement piston seal for the Baikal, or a 28mm seal that would fit the Baikal piston boss, but I haven't looked real hard, either. I'm positive that a non-Baikal piston seal is needed to get the most of this gun.
I shoot all of my springers with a light hold, just touching the shoulder etc. I know there are individual springers that don't shoot well that way, but 90 % + do.
I have a 24 fpe 350 Mag that I've put a couple thousand pellets through. I also have a bunch of other magnum springers, several of even higher power than the 350. My evaluation of the Baikal is based on that comparative material.
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Pat,
Pictured below is the anti-beartrap wheels and latch (I call it a 'tooth' for giggles) of my MP513M.
The anti-beartrap ratchet in the Baikal sure seems like an unneccessary drag, plus a source of mechanical noise. I know of two people who took it off. They both experienced accidental barrel spring-backs, with typical damage (bent barrels etc.). So, I'm not taking mine off.
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Thanks for the perspective, Duke
My first thought was that if that underpowered spring is uncomfortable to shoot, then the full power spring would be worse. Then a possible paradox occurred to me:
I have two Gamo Big Cat 1300 "springers". They weigh about five and half pounds, and use gas springs to yield a bit over 16 FPE. I had read that gas springers are harsh to shoot, but my experience with these light weight Gamos is the opposite. The shot cycle is so fast that before the buttstock has moved back very far, the forward surge has cancelled most of the recoil.
So, while it is certain that a stronger spring in your Baikal will cause higher rearward acceleration of the whole gun, the gun may in fact not travel back further into your skeleton, due to the much faster shot cycle. It may travel less far back than with the spring you have now, due to a harsher forward surge that happens much sooner. Harder on scopes, but easier on the shoulder.
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Pat,
Pictured below is the anti-beartrap wheels and latch (I call it a 'tooth' for giggles) of my MP513M.
The anti-beartrap ratchet in the Baikal sure seems like an unneccessary drag, plus a source of mechanical noise. I know of two people who took it off. They both experienced accidental barrel spring-backs, with typical damage (bent barrels etc.). So, I'm not taking mine off.
Duke,
Thanks for the close up picture. I can imagine with as thin as the barrel is on this rifle and as hard as it is to cock that it would be easy to let the barrel to slip out of your grip.
I will have to check when I get home but it seems like mine only had one wheel. It was very 'grindy' during the cocking stroke. Much smoother without the bear trap.
Thanks again for the detailed write up,
Pat
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I've been breaking in the tuned MP513, and have progressed to the first chrono sessions.
When it comes to the shot cycle, things are looking much better than with the factory setup, even though the mainspring is now dramatically stronger. Yes, the gun still kicks with authority, but the jumpiness, twang and mechanical noise, which were no joke at this level, are pretty much gone.
Cocking effort is hard and harsh, at H135 level, but with worse ergonomics. I don't mind, I'm used to magnums.
So, what's the velocity, post-operation?
Chronoing conditions were non-optimal due to bad weather, so take these with a pinch of salt, but shooting .22 cal pellets ranging from 11.9 gr. Hobbys to 17.13 gr. Silverpoints, the muzzle velocities were in the 224 - 275 m/s, or 735 - 902 fps range, with muzzle energies really quite consistent, at a little under 28 to a little over 29 J, or app. 21 fpe.
Starting from the 12 fpe AND worst-cycle-ever beginnings, I'm really happy with the results so far. I'm still pretty sure that a better-quality piston seal would yield the "missing" 3 Joules / couple fpe, without any other changes, while still improving the shot cycle.
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Excellent!
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My Beastly Baikal acquired some new fittings recently. I found an adapter that would enable the tremendously loud gun to accomodate a standard Western moderator.
Today, I tested the Baikal with two different moderators, a new Weihrauch one and my trusty old Decimeater. The lightweight Weihrauch didn't cut the noise much any, while the heavier Decimeater took off the sharpest edge off the report, but didn't really lower the volume. This is a gun with very hard mechanical noise, where a moderator helps none. Compare this to my LGV, which is like a different gun with the same moderator on.
The Baikal front sight assembly is such that when the moderator tap is without a cap or a moderator tightly on, the front sight blade falls off without support, and the front sight tunnel revolves around the barrel. I'm afraid I lost something from the front sight here in winter.
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A lot of springer noise is from the mechanism. If the mechanism is harsh, so is the noise.
Springers are not "powerful" compared to PCPs. Springers have a very spikey air pressure profile, with low muzzle pressure. Thus, moderators don't do much for springer muzzle blast; because there isn't much to begin with.
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Subs,
What you say is true, but I have learned well-made springers can be effectively moderated - something guys like Tom Gaylord never accepted or understood. My LGV, for instance, turns from a gun-like "POP!" into a vague "puts" with a can on the nose, something that even keen-eared bunnies don't interpret as a threat. It's not only about the volume, but the type of sound.
With the rough n' ready Baikal, there was only a small change in the signature. But I would need to get someone to shoot it for me, while I stand some distance to the side / back, to really tell.