GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: mobilemail on December 06, 2021, 11:38:49 AM
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I'm thinking about adding an external regulator to my .177/12fpe CZ200. Can anyone tell me what kind of shot count I could expect with a 2900psi fill?
Right now, filling the rifle to 2000psi gives about 50 shots within 3% of the peak at about 11.6 fpe (I would have to check my notes on the exact velocity) using an 8.4gr pellet.
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My 200s is a .22 cal with the larger Altaros aluminum air tube and external reg. If I recall correctly using a 2800psi fill I got 100 useful shots @ +- 750fps.
HtH
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I also bought one of the Alteros aluminum tubes. It's a very nice addition to the CZ200.
The tube has 150 cc's of air, the standard tube has 120 cc's.
The Alteros tube also has a probe fill at the end, under the pressure gauge. This means that you don't need to remove the tube to fill it.
This Alteros tube isn't cheap, but not bad either. You get a probe, probe fill, gauge*,regulator, aluminum tube. The fill pressure is the same as the steel tube, 2750 psi / 190 bar. You will need to check the exchange rate euros to dollars, mine cost $270 but I also bought a wrench, that added about $15. I expect that the tube with reg and probe fill would be about $255.
I know that the aluminum tube for M-Rods was about $150 when you could get one. That was just the tube, the fill port and regulator were separate.
* the pressure gauge dosen't show red above 190 bar like the OEM gauge on the CZ200.
Hunter
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Can see where some games we play would be easier if we could play the full game on one fill. Something that you know needs 60 shots, but you only have 50….bothers us to refill at some point.
Done at match speeds, might get 90-100 good shots unregulated….double the energy to about 12, usually can get nearly ½ the shots.
200T or S200’s were freakish good at a long un-regulated plateau...just not quire 60 shots good (the .22 can get to 60...but 12 foot pounds in .22 is kind of “trajectory challenged”).
Just a longer/larger volume air tube could get you there.
The only one I played with (other guy’s gun) had an Altaros reg insalled. LOOKED like just an add on between the tube and the action, but as I never used one/installed one, have no real clue to the real work needed.
Did get him up to closer to 90-95 shots at about 11-12 foot pounds. Wasn’t “magic”, used more air to do it (wider pressure range), but the point was not to refill in the middle of what he was doing.
Having two of the things, but one in .22, did try just swapping air tubes. Nope. Not a lot of difference between the two tubes on the same frame, but enough to notice by chronograph and on paper.
It might work out as a cheaper alternative if you spend the time playing-around with the two tubes to get them to meet. Even today, think a whole functioning air tube runs about $150-$160.
(Evidently a closet “daredevil”, I still keep using that S200’s 2003 air tube ratter than replacing it.)
Are sealed units when off the rifle, can haul them around separate from the rifle, but need some allowances to be swappable.
Stripper/brake/LDC has to be skinny enough for the tube to pass underneath. Front fill or rear fill tubes, they interchange, but have to pass under the LDC.
It might be a lot of work to get the two into “close enough” velocity agreement. The two I have are close enough for hunting, not close enough to target work...never tried to cure that.
Sill have to stop the .177 at 50 shots and swap tubes.
Likely would need one “fart shot” to get the new tube working right...which may be against the rules of a game.
So...not owned, but shot: Altros. Haven’t checked the “who/what/where “of that one in a long long time. May be more/better options, but would prefer and external reg so not to take up any of the tube volume.
Did extend the shot shot count at the same energy from a standard 122CC tube. Likely a more even velocity than 3%, but realistically can’t tell the difference between 2% and 4%.
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CZ200, aka AA T200 gets a very good unregulated shot string for such a tiny reservoir. It's not enough for a FT match. Inside the pressure tube is a little gizmo called a "POTT" that is the secret to the unregulated shot string, but I'm pretty sure that it must be removed to use that nifty screw on regulator.
To remove the POTT, you must degas the tube and unscrew the endcap. The endcap is on there very tight. You will need a special wrench, and you will probably need to make a fixture to hold the tube while you unscrew the endcap. This would be two pieces of 2x4 clamped together, (6 or 8 inches long) then drill a hole the entire length of these 2x4's.
I wanted to be able to disassemble my tube, that's why I bought the special wrench from Alteros, I will need to make the 2x4 fixture.
HTH.
Hunter
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Been debate about what the POTT really does.... is it just a restriction of does it act like ½ a reg.?
Evidently, it's the reason for the long plateau at 12ish foot pounds....and the reason you have to fight to get it to 20 (where you'll not find a very long plateau). Can get power without it, but a poor unregulated shot count. 12 foot pounds is well within the range where the pott system still works its "magic".
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51205801894_8e3f220de6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m1T7Vm)9725ca7f-0cc2-4fbe-af58-9732c9daec8e (https://flic.kr/p/2m1T7Vm) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
It’s just not 60 shot or 100 shot “magic”. Same valve/same tune, a longer air tube (more volume) would get to 60 easy enough.
Only times I’ve played games with one, were running stages. If they allowed a refill, would refill between stages. The 5 min spent doing that did me a lot more good than BSing with the other guys waiting for the next stage.
MAYBE the first shot after a top-off was a little bit off. Testing at home showed it sometimes happened, sometimes didn’t. More an unpredictable event than something that always happened.
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Keep seeing smaller air volumes listed for the basic tube….conflicts with what’s printed on the tube.
Never opened one up and measure- filled it with liquid to find out.
But if it really is smaller….then that shot count is all the more impressive for a non-regulated.
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Hunter
Just an FYI if you haven't received your tool yet, once you get the factory end off, it's not needed to put them on that tight. I have removed the factory cap and put them back on finger tight with no air leaks. Once you get them off you can remove and install very easy. If you get one installed from Altaros they are not as tight as factory guns. By the way, the pott does act as sort of a regulator. I took the Pott out of a 15 ft. lb. gun and it went to 20 foot pounds. But I had previously cranked on the hammer spring some and opened the air adjust also.
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It also depends on if you have a CZ200 with the short pressure tube (50cc) or long pressure tube (80cc).
I have two CZ200s with one of each. The CZ200 with the 50cc pressure tube is equipped with the external HUMA reg and does about 75 consistent shots at 12fpe (.177). Without HUMA this is about 45 - 50 consistent shots.
Btw the 80cc pressure tube with no regulator does even a stunning 80 consistent shots at 12fpe (.177).
The CZ200 is really an amazing platform in terms of consistency and accuracy. I think it shines best in 12fpe or as 5fpe match version. I think the .22 version is slightly more powerful as only option in case you want to get closer to 15-16fpe.
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OK...now I gotta take a cylinder apart and actually volume-measure. SUCKER? had been believing the 122ml printed on the side of those tubes “forever”, and it might be BS.
Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been airgun-lied to.
NOW I see lower volumes (which makes the shot counts even better from an efficiency prospective).
Could be old tubes vs new tubes….could be they always printed the wrong thing (knowingly or not).
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From your experience...think I’d just go with a bigger tube rather than regulation to get the same (75-80 shot) results. Just for the sake of simplicity.
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I had one in my cart last year from Altaroes & i should have bought it, but with Covid i figured with my luck it would have been delivered in the ocean. Nice shot count.
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Mark.
Have you tried the new regulated aluminum air tube yet?
How many shots do you get. And how many foot pounds are you tuned to?
I can't shoot right now so I'm interested in your results.
Thanks.
Hunter
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It looks like the CZ200 series has been discontinued. PA sell only accessories, but no rifles:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-t200-sporter-air-rifle-target-sights?m=2622 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-t200-sporter-air-rifle-target-sights?m=2622)
I had a feeling this may happen when I bought one, just over a year ago....
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I really like mine. I can't shoot anything now, so I need to sell. AA200 have been a very well received rifle for many years now. I have mine tuned to 11,5 fpe. I wish that I had the strength to shoot a string.
Hunter
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Shucks, Hunter
I hope recovery is possible. If so, you should keep at least something.
Meanwhile, shoot off a rest.
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Yeah, I'm going to keep one rifle in 177 caliber. I may not be able to shoot for about 3 months, but I will look forward to it. I have one M-Rod that has the scope calibrated for my eyesight. The CZ-200 I never got a chance to set it up.
Hunter
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Mark.
Have you tried the new regulated aluminum air tube yet?
How many shots do you get. And how many foot pounds are you tuned to?
I can't shoot right now so I'm interested in your results.
Thanks.
Hunter
I’m very happy with it! I get nearly 80 shots @11.4fpe using JSB 8.44gr pellets. I am very happy I bought the rifle, and the Altaros tube when I did.
What I would like to find now is a muzzle weight, I think. The rifle is so light that it’s hard to keep it steady for offhand shooting. Even my Beeman R7 is a little easier to keep settled.
I could practice more or drink less coffee, but where is the fun in that?
What’s holding down your shooting time?
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Hunter...hang tough, mind set is a pretty big part of what's ahead.
MArk: Been following...you got me thinking today.
Thinking you bought the Altaros complete tube (probably 150cc)...so are filling with a gauge and fill probe (kind of required to fill from the front)….so the air tube doesn’t have to come off to fill….so from the air tube forward barrel diameter isn’t an issue. In their words, “without being limited for attaching end terminal option on the barrel ( compensator / silencer )”
Also means the rifle’s new tube is considerably lighter. Doesn’t take much front-weigh (from the middle of the fore end forward) to notice a shift of balance.
Can’t think of a “slider” type clamp weight (that you kind of play like a trombone) that world work...might be something, 15mm isn’t a real odd barrel diameter.
Most of the other add to the muzzle devices are built light weight (brakes, match sight mounts, etc). But your new tube doesn’t limit the diameter of what you can attach.
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Mark, not to hijack the thread, but I am being treated for lymphoma. It upsets my way of life completely. I just don't have the strength to attend a FT match now, or even prepare for it. My CZ-200 was going to be my 12 fpe rig. I need to shoot at all ranges from 9 to 60 yards to properly set it up. No energy now. Maybe September, or I may sell my 11.5 fpe rig. 80 shots sounds perfect 👌.
My M-Rod is set up for Hunter Field target at 18 fpe. I can shoot it as is.
Thanks Mark for the information.
Hunter
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For your use Hunter, I think I would stay to 70 shots. I think the 80 was allowing it to drop off the reg to 3% below max, which would cost you on a long shot toward the end of a match.
For the muzzle weight, I have thought about reaching out to Neil Clague for a dual purpose device. :D. The rifle isn't what you call loud, but it has a little crack.
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Mark, I really like the balance as it is. The Neil Clague sounds Ike a good way to go. FT guys are often very hush-hush lol 🤣.
Hunter
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A believer in it's possible to be too quiet? If it doesn't harm accuracy, does help balance...why not be extra stealthy (give a lesson to the high-powered PCP's who think they are mouse fart quiet).
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A believer in it's possible to be too quiet? If it doesn't harm accuracy, does help balance...why not be extra stealthy (give a lesson to the high-powered PCP's who think they are mouse fart quiet).
I'm rural and I don't have to be quiet, but I prefer quiet. I also believe there is no such thing as too quiet. I sold my s200 to a buddy about 10 or 12 years ago and I still wish I hadn't.
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Quiet is good in the winter when I'm shooting in the basement. It minimizes the dreaded SWMBO agitation. ;D ;D ;D
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Does anyone have strong ideas of the shape of a replacement front sight base that is slightly larger/longer, and doubles as an air stripper, or LDC?
I can design something up that is 3D printable, although a part machined from metal may have broader appeal.
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I actually made a slip on out of pvc pipe, I put a few baffles from an M-Rod. It works very well, but it's not a Niel Clague.
Hunter
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Playing with the steel tubed AA’s, remembering the one guy with a lite tube….thinking for balance, would want a 4-6oz. LDC to get to that slightly front heavy feel. Best I can guess but measuring balance points with normal length arms.
Of course, if you haven’t ordered one already, could just tape weight to the muzzle until it felt right (not shooting with that kind of loose arrangement)...find the right weight that way, then check out the weights listed in the “20 silencer test” sticky.
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So, I designed a front sight mount for the T200 that sports a two stage air stripper. Rather than contaminate this thread, take a look here - STL file posted there: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=200294.msg156337616#msg156337616 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=200294.msg156337616#msg156337616)
Sample image:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=200294.0;attach=405059;image)
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Well now that's pretty cool!
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Thanks, Mark
I plan to make a version of this part, without the dovetail cuts, for scope users. The dovetail seems to take out a lot of material. Rather than the flat bottom of the stock part, I plan to make the air tank clearance semi-circular too.
I worked within the volume of the stock part, but would have preferred a bit more space. I suppose there is nothing stopping me from making the brake a bit longer out front, and behind the muzzle, for better stability. That said, there is something about appealing about not violating the shape of the stock part, except for the honking big vents and cones inside :) . One does not want to make the blob on the end of the muzzle dominate visually. Making it larger can be tolerated in exchange for additional functionality:
I will extend the design to incorporate LDCs. The most ambitious may have some reflex volume, to help align the LDC with the barrel. The stock "brake" has a 15 mm through hole, with my T200 barrel measuring 19.92 mm in diameter. I may even add more retention screws that can be tightened like a "spider" for barrel alignment. The extra grub screws should have nylon button noses to avoid marring the barrel.
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The stock "brake" has a 15 mm through hole, with my T200 barrel measuring 19.92 mm in diameter.
Oops. Huge typo. Barrel measures 14.92 mm in diameter.
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The stock "brake" has a 15 mm through hole, with my T200 barrel measuring 19.92 mm in diameter.
Oops. Huge typo. Barrel measures 14.92 mm in diameter.
That's about right, Sub sir.
I remember purchasing "pickle" adapters from the UK when I was still in Asia, and one of them was a 15mm, IIRIC.
It was somewhat a loose fit so that I had to shim my S200 barrel with a single round of transparent tape.
I eventually had my machinist make me one in brass.
It was a perfect interference fit and with a slimmer OD.
It also would not touch the air tube upon removal for a refiill , as mine was the Hunter Series, the longer tube version.
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Rick,
You touch on a dilemma. Do I design the 15 mm bore tight, for reaming to size, or do I accept some slop so that people who print the part don't have to struggle getting it on the barrel? I chose to copy the stock part bore diameter; in this iteration.
Having what each person considers the perfect fit depends on their printer and settings. I elected to go "loose", knowing that printers often print holes smaller than the CAD model. It is not hard to slice the print after tweaking the software to shrink holes by 0.002" radially.
Now, I could easily add some 0.002" tall ribs (or front middle and rear "rings") inside the 15 mm bore to the above designs, such that they have a slight interference with the barrel OD, and will align the brake to the barrel. Yet, not take a huge amount of force to tap or push on. One could argue that the plastic part will spring out even if there is full contact. However, a too tight fit complicates an important aspect, that is not a consideration for a full cylindrical part:
The fact that the brakes have asymmetrical features (air tank clearance / sight dovetail) means these need to be "clocked" rotationally with the barrel, and that a tight fit to the barrel OD will prevent correct "clocking" after the part is installed. Or make it difficult. I don't want to bang or twist on the brake, while the barrel is constrained at the other end by a dainty connection with the breech block. Yes; one can remove the barrel from the receiver first.
So, if one were producing these parts for sale, then some development might be required to optimize all aspects. Printing may produce a cheaper part, but machining would enable a lot more precision.
By the way, the stock plastic sight base appears to be machined on my T200. I find that surprising. Firstly, it has no parting lines. It has "machined features": The dovetail terminates in an arc suggestive of the cutter radius. The flat on the bottom appears machined. If molded, why not make it curved as a guide for the air tank? Perhaps any misalignment between tank and barrel would then become obvious and make the gun look cheap.