Me? Scope? or both?

[cwh]

Dear Jedi, Zen, Voodoo Masters,

I'm new to HFT; and to date, I'm pleased with my ability to shoot but, ranging a target past 37 yards is nearly impossible.  I'm shooting a HW97 with Hawke Sidewinder 3-12x50.  As I mentioned earlier, hitting targets between 10 and 55 yards (with little wind) doesn't present my current problem but, darn if I can figure out the range after 35.  I've ranged on nearby blades of grass and leaves, rested my eyes, make the final side wheel movement in the same direction and anything else I can think of...  In setting up my side wheel, I've used 200' tapes and I'll mark the wheel, note my hold over and everything is great...til, I try to duplicate the distance and I can be as much as 10 yards off of my previous mark.   Sorry for the whining...thoughts?

Thanks!

[Motorhead]

SCOPE ISSUE .....

It is no secret that in "Hunter" class being stuck at 12X the ranging challenges are very real especially +/- 35Y  on out 

Being SF or OB parallax adjustment is dependent on  higher magnification values to get more defined ...
So is that scope by design have a SHALLOW depth of field ( This contrary to most applications where a shooters FOV while sighting threw said scope is better served with a DEEP depth of field )

A contributing factor on a scopes DOF  for some manufacturers is Objective lens size with the smaller glass some times having a shallower DOF than the big glass.
* In HAWKE Sidewinders the preferred "Hunter" scope is the 4.5-14x42 1/2 dot which with the smaller OB glass simply ranges better than the 50's or 56's for most shooters.

Having owned quite a few Sidewinders and other brands too in search of that ever elusive PERFECT FT scope for hunter class.  Have been using an OPTISAN VIPER 4-16x50 SCB for 2 seasons now and it is IMO hands down the best ranging HFT scope ever used to date. ( Set at 12x )

Just some FYI that I hope helps you some.

Scott

[farmerjoe99]

I can definitely recommend the optisan viper 4-16x50 SCB,
after almost a unanimous agreement that its was the best under $500
for my uses. and I can say its quite accurate at range-finding.
using the extra 6in. sidewheel and at 16x(I shoot open class)
I was ranging within a 1 to 6yds(part of that was my fault) of my fellow competitors a the crosman FT shoot,
one of which was using a sightron SIII 10-50X60.

[cwh]

Thanks Scott and Joseph!

[HectorMedina]

Dear Jedi, Zen, Voodoo Masters,

I'm new to HFT; and to date, I'm pleased with my ability to shoot but, ranging a target past 37 yards is nearly impossible.  I'm shooting a HW97 with Hawke Sidewinder 3-12x50.  As I mentioned earlier, hitting targets between 10 and 55 yards (with little wind) doesn't present my current problem but, darn if I can figure out the range after 35.  I've ranged on nearby blades of grass and leaves, rested my eyes, make the final side wheel movement in the same direction and anything else I can think of...  In setting up my side wheel, I've used 200' tapes and I'll mark the wheel, note my hold over and everything is great...til, I try to duplicate the distance and I can be as much as 10 yards off of my previous mark.   Sorry for the whining...thoughts?

Thanks!

Curt,

I do not shoot in the Hunter Division, I shoot in the WFTF Division, but I have been involved with optics and lighting for over 40 years.
You may want to read my blog entry about understanding riflescopes:

http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/how-to-understand-rifle-scopes

FT scopes are usually made with special erector lens setups to accomplish a short depth of field, they may also have special cam arrangements where the lenses move less the farther out the target is and therefore give a larger arc of the adjusting wheel/knob for a given distance increase.

But regardless of what the maker puts into a scope, there is one lens no maker can operate on: Your eye.

It is not easy to have perfectly corrected glasses to use when using a scope unless you get some special shooting glasses mounted on Varga frames or something of the sort.

If you do not wear glasses, then it may be that you have to LEARN how to see the detail in the sight picture. Some shooters try grass blades because they are small and thin and any blur should be easily detectable. The reality is that we see with our brains more than with our eyes. Our brain interprets the signals from our eyes according to previous/past experiences, and it takes some re-learning to start looking at things that we do not know previously, and therefore cannot make a mental image of them to project onto our vision.
Try looking at textures and patterns to detect when the scope is in its best "focus".
Another way is to use the "hand memory" technique, where you go back and forth in ever diminishing arcs till you find the best position of the wheel. Your enemy there is any slack that your scope may have, or any backlash that will play tricks with the back and forth.

Lastly, what you should try is miling or bracketing. This is a geometrical exercise where you determine the distance to an object based on the size of the object and the angle spanned by the object in the reticule.

You will first need to find out what are the subtensions of your reticle, you may want to read my blog entry:

http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/mil-as-in-milliradian

Follow the instructions there and find out exactly what subtensions your scope is giving you.

Then measure a bunch of FT's and make a table. If you buy some of them you might be able to set a range and do a chart/table of targets/sizes to distance.

I like using the target base, and the KZ center height as primary markers. If the targets are mounted on standard things (like pavers), you can also use that dimension.

And, finally, you can also try practicing using your MkI eyeball. Just get a laser rangefinder and when you are walking the dog, or any other outdoor activity, estimate the distance to different objects and then use the LRF to correct your estimations. After a month or two you will start getting better and better and eyeballing the distances.

Welcome to FT!





Hector Medina

PS.- I do not "click" to take each shot. I only use my reticle. 

[cwh]

Thanks so much Hector...man, I love this sport!

[nced]

A few personal opinions..........

"I'm new to HFT"
Welcome to HFT! A few decades ago when living in WV my brother and I "discovered" Field Target shooting and simply used it as a great way to get together with other airgunners and have some off season practice for the fall squirrel season. Since there was no "hunter class" at that time, and the  normal "pretzel sittin' classes" didn't lend themselves to squirrel hunting, my brother and I simply had a great time shooting only the standing class hoping to shoot a "double digit score" (LOLO, more than 9) in a 60 shot match. After shooting 'standing class" for a couple seasons the rangemaster at a FT club outside Harrisonburg, VA (no longer exists) offered a "hunter class" which wasn't officially sanctioned at that time. My brother and I were immediately taken with sittin' on a bucket and resting the gun on cross sticks because that was similar to the way we still hunted squirrels.

At that time I usually attended the FT matches at the DIFTA club on the grounds of the Issac Walton League in Damascus, MD shooting "standing class". After trying the hunter class at the Harrisongurg, VA course I asked the DIFTA range master  if my brother and I could simply pay our range fee and shoot hunter class field target style from bucket and sticks. I was told that if my brother and I shot hunter class HFT would be added to the DIFTA matches and the rest is history. The Hunter Class was officially sanctioned years ago and since moving to North Carolina the THAGC matches have a good representation of hunter class shooters and even a good percentage of hunter PISTON shooters!!

"ranging a target past 37 yards is nearly impossible."
Yep....and if you can scope rangefind at 37 yards with any degree of accuracy at 12x max you're doing better than I! When I first shot HFT outside Harrisonburg, VA decades ago scope range finding wasn't even allowed and the range master would put a wide rubber band over the markings on the scope AO (there were few side wheel scopes then) so you could focus but not do any sort of range finding. Since my brother and I did "scope range find" when squirrel hunting when I took HFT to the DIFTA club (along with my own rules) I allowed scope range finding at 12x max and allowing scope range finding at 12x max has become part of the "official rules" when HFT was sanctioned as an "official division". Matter of fact, when first sanctioned the hunter class was a combination of PCP and piston shooters competing directly against each other. After much "campaigning" the division was divided into both PCP and Piston classes as it is now.

"darn if I can figure out the range after 35" 
This is true, however I have found that even scope range finding at 12x is a learned skill that can be improved by practice. I found that however (as you've learned) it's best to always do the final rotation of the AO or side wheel in the same direction after cycling between "fuzzy/sharp/fuzzy and back to sharp". When I was using a 4-16x40 Bushnell Elite 4200 with AO the "sharp focus marks" between 45 and 50 yards was spread apart by less than 1/8" on the AO at 12x so it was indeed near impossible to determine if the target was at 47 or 49 yards, but that is all a part of the game.

"I try to duplicate the distance and I can be as much as 10 yards off of my previous mark"
When setting up my scope I'll first put a tiny tic mark on my "holdover tape" when focusing and then I'll refocus the scope checking if the pointer is lined up with the mark each time. As mentioned, scope range finding at only 12x also needs some practice. I have noticed that at 69 years old my eyes don't discern "sharp focus" as well as they did a couple decades ago, however I've also found that the scope itself might not be good at "snapping in and out of focus" quick enough that the eye itself isn't compensating. A while back I was using a 3-12x50 Aeon that had great optics but the thing simply was rather "squishy" when focusing so I would do three "rangefinds" and the pointer would be pointed differently to the side wheel marks each time. After using the Aeon for a while I bought the 3-12x44 Optisan Viper I currently own and this particular scope snaps in and out of focus very quickly making it much easier to get a repeated scope "rangefind". Matter of fact, it's the best I've owned for HFT shooting, however, past 35 yards the rangefind isn't very reliable at best!

One thing I do that I haven't seen other HFT shooters do is to mark my sidewheel or AO with symbols representing holdover points at different sharp focus distances. Here are a couple examples........



Here is an example of how the symbols are used after sharp focusing at an unknown distance with my Viper and SCB reticle...........


As mentioned, I started shooting HFT simply as practice for the fall squirrel season so using symbols on the AO or sidewheel instead of yardages means that my "dope sheet" is on the scope without the need to refer to a separate dope sheet. The downside of my "system" is that it only works for one scope setting (I always shoot at 12x), one scope mounting, one tune level and one gun. This means that if the scope mount is changed, tune level of the gun is altered, or a different pellet is used there is a need to mark a new "holdover tape". LOL....for me "not a biggie" and certainly more useful than creating a new dope sheet with similar changes!

Those are some of my thoughts/experiences!
   

[cwh]

Thanks Ed!

I appreciate your help.  I'll be shooting with you on the 27th...see you there.

Curt

[nced]

 

Thanks Ed!

I appreciate your help.  I'll be shooting with you on the 27th...see you there.

Curt

Looking forward to it!

LOL....there are already 4 piston shooters in the hunter class so it's gonna be a good day!

[Motorhead]

LOL ... Ed's another user of the OPTISAN VIPER .... funny how that scopes getting used by many Hunter class shooters this last few seasons sense they became available here in the USA 

[HectorMedina]

When I first shot HFT outside Harrisonburg, VA decades ago scope range finding wasn't even allowed and the range master would put a wide rubber band over the markings on the scope AO (there were few side wheel scopes then) so you could focus but not do any sort of range finding. Since my brother and I did "scope range find" when squirrel hunting when I took HFT to the DIFTA club (along with my own rules) I allowed scope range finding at 12x max and allowing scope range finding at 12x max has become part of the "official rules" when HFT was sanctioned as an "official division".

So, YOU are the guilty bloke! LOL!

Keep well, Ed!







HM

[nced]

When I first shot HFT outside Harrisonburg, VA decades ago scope range finding wasn't even allowed and the range master would put a wide rubber band over the markings on the scope AO (there were few side wheel scopes then) so you could focus but not do any sort of range finding. Since my brother and I did "scope range find" when squirrel hunting when I took HFT to the DIFTA club (along with my own rules) I allowed scope range finding at 12x max and allowing scope range finding at 12x max has become part of the "official rules" when HFT was sanctioned as an "official division".

So, YOU are the guilty bloke! LOL!

Keep well, Ed!







HM

LOL...well, I did introduce HFT to DIFTA however I later learned that there were other clubs offering some sort of HFT well before my introducing it to DIFTA and before it became a sanctioned class with "official rules".

[Gear_Junkie]

Curt,

I'm shooting HFT with the same rig as you and am also very new to the sport.  Although ranging may not be quite as nice with the Airmax vs. the Viper, I have found it to be pretty accurate up to about 45 yards.  50 and 55 yards kind of blend together.  (And I actually prefer the thinner Hawke reticle vs. the thicker Viper reticle.)  One thing I have noticed with this scope is that it will range differently in different temperatures.  It took some frustration, and finally some insight from Ronnie Easton before this was made clear to me.  I ended up doing my final ranging at about 75 degrees.  This way, I'm at least centered between the temperatures that I mostly shoot (between 60 - 90 degrees).  Also, I had to find a good target where I could clearly see that it was in focus at the various distances.  I tried metal targets, bullseye's, and other things before I finally settled on the underside of my skateboard from the 80's with a bunch of stickers on it.  It would set this at 5 yard intervals (using a 100ft tape) between 10 yards and 55 yards.  I would then check and recheck each distance before moving on.  I also did this again and again over several days, confirming and refining the wheel markings.  After doing this, I printed out the final wheel tape using AutoCAD.  This was again checked before being permanently attached to the wheel.  It takes a bit of time doing this, but it will save you some frustration on the course and [mostly] eliminate one variable from your shooting.

Good Luck!

[cwh]

Thanks Zack!

[chiro972b]

Curt,

I'll be there on the 27th as well. I have sued to shoot hft with the same scope and I did pretty well, but I couldn't range much past 40 yards either. I now shoot open using the Sightron Hector sells. You're welcome to take a look through it at 12x and see if it's any better, but in my opinion, 12x is the limiting factor. Also at that distance, even the big scope has difficulty. It ranges great for me in open at 50x, but even with a big wheel, anything past 45 yards is really tough.

[cwh]

Thanks Chiro...I'll take you up on your offer...see you on the 27th!

[Scotchmo]

For far targets, accept the fact that 12x will focus range find +/-5 or 10 yards, at best. If you need better than that, use other cues besides the focus.

The scope you have is likely as good as you need. Time spent developing your other ranging skills will pay off better than time and money spent in the search for a better scope.