GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Field Target Gates => Hunter Class Field Target => Topic started by: DFWdude on September 13, 2013, 10:43:02 AM
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Before the addition of the Field Target Gates, I had posted (in the regular PCP forum) a long treatise on my experience in tuning the CZ200s/AA S200 series of rifles for 20fpe performance, for Hunter FT rifle. The best I have achieved to date is just under 19fpe with the standard, .177 cal rifle. But I have successfully converted a second rifle to .20cal, which uses the same, aggressive tune in the .177, dialed back slightly to just under 20fpe.
For those interested, here is a link to the previous thread, as it is difficult to find in its original place. I do update it with new information occasionally.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,26719.msg243096.html#msg243096 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,26719.msg243096.html#msg243096)
I like these rifles so much that I recently acquired a third for conversion to a sub 15" barreled, 12fpe Hunter FT Pistol. That project is at the end of the referenced thread as well.
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I love mine. I also use it for FT. Its never been tuned or worked on in any way. Cant imagine it being more accurate than it is now.
Richard
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I agree. The accuracy of the Czech barrels is almost legendary.
What I am coming to appreciate even more is the lightness of the rifle. More and more FT venues now require shooting from the standing, off-hand hold on one or more lanes. The CZ200s rifle is only 6 lbs without scope, 7.5 lbs with. Much easier to hold and aim off-hand than the other available HFT rifles that weigh 9-10 lbs or more.
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So your another one of the type who thinks choping down an AA just might work for PFT eh?
Scott T and his son did well in th e 2009 (?? it was in KY that year, pretty sure) took 1st in PFT and Junior class I believe using one.
had a rail under it so any attachment fir also, they do make pretty cool rigs.
Happy shooting,
John
For 12fpe, one can take a $2500 Steyr PCP pistol (6fpe), and sent it off for a $2000 tune to 12fpe, as many have. Or, one can take a proven match grade barrel in a $600 rifle, spend another $125 to shorten it from 19" to under 15," (if you can't do it yourself), chop off the butt stock and shape the remainder into a pistol grip, and (easily) detune it to 12fpe...
So, let's see: $4500 vs $725. Hmmmm. Let's think about this.... Really?
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So, let's see: $4500 vs $725. Hmmmm. Let's think about this.... Really?
Gosh, likely just me but almost sounds like ya didnt like me encouraging you to use that CZ/AA in PFT. It's all for fun no matter, personally I like most every airgun I've met.
John
I don't shoot Gamo, mostly because of the irresponsible marketing hype that Gamo uses. Otherwise, I like almost every airgun as well.
As for whose idea it was to shoot the CZ/AA in PFT, I appreciate the encouragement(?), but I'm not sure I received any advice from anyone about this. I've shot the CZ rifle in FT for a while now, and decided -- on my own -- to adopt the same platform in PFT for several reasons:
1) Same operation in both rifle and pistol
2) Same hammer-forged, accurate barrel
3) Same tunable, removable cylinder/refill system, using the same adapter
4) Same trigger, tuned identically
5) Same ballistics using the same 10.3g JSB pellets
6) Same scope, scope reticle, ranging sidewheel = same scope techniques
While I have a Steyr Pistol that I could have tuned for the task as others have, I like the added benefit of showing the experts it can be done with far less effort and expense. I regularly shoot PFT with two national champions and I often give them a run for their money.
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Hi DFWdude,
I'm MikeSSS, form San Antonio. We have talked at a couple Yegua matches.
Your shooting and your CZ s200 so impressed me that I am shamelessly copying you. In the match before the Nationals I was the other guy shooting a red stocked s200. This rifle is factory stock and is shooting at about 10 fpe, 770 fps, with CPLs. The s200 shoots so very well that I'm reluctant to start making changes, its accuracy and very high shot count are a real joy, as is just plain shooting it.
At the moment I'm thinking of a AA 400, 410, 500, 510 for HFT. JSB 10.34 gr pellets at 935 fps, 20 fpe would take a lot of guess work out of hold and using 10.34 vs 8.4 gr or CPLs would also reduce wind drift errors. Shooting position will probably be stool and sticks, rather than prone with bipod.
OK, what do you think of going in this direction? Any advice, comments, etc. are most welcome.
Thanks and best regards,
Mike S
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Hi DFWdude,
I'm MikeSSS, form San Antonio. We have talked at a couple Yegua matches.
Your shooting and your CZ s200 so impressed me that I am shamelessly copying you. In the match before the Nationals I was the other guy shooting a red stocked s200. This rifle is factory stock and is shooting at about 10 fpe, 770 fps, with CPLs. The s200 shoots so very well that I'm reluctant to start making changes, its accuracy and very high shot count are a real joy, as is just plain shooting it.
At the moment I'm thinking of a AA 400, 410, 500, 510 for HFT. JSB 10.34 gr pellets at 935 fps, 20 fpe would take a lot of guess work out of hold and using 10.34 vs 8.4 gr or CPLs would also reduce wind drift errors. Shooting position will probably be stool and sticks, rather than prone with bipod.
OK, what do you think of going in this direction? Any advice, comments, etc. are most welcome.
Thanks and best regards,
Mike S
Nice to here from you, Mike. Yes, I do remember you from Sept.
I'm a big guy, and when I see pictures that others take of me while shooting, I'm reminded of how silly (IMO) I look shooting the small CZ200s. Then, I remind myself that I have the CZ, rather than other rifles, because of its weight. The rifle weighs only 6 pounds (7-1/2 with a scope). This aids you tremendously in the Off-Hand lanes, where you must shoot while standing and with little rifle support (Hunter Class). The heavier rifle shooters are at a disadvantage in the off-hand lanes. Not that I am an expert shooter off-hand. But I can usually knock down 2-3 out of 6 targets, sometimes more. While the Open Class PCP shooters fare less well with their 18-pound rifles.
You can shoot WFTF PCP with the S200 in stock tune, but you can't shoot with a bipod or stool in this Class. But, as you observed, a higher power level makes for a much flatter trajectory, even using the JSB 10.3s for their wind-fighting ability. As you know by now, the CZ200 can be tuned to shoot 18fpe, which puts you in the power range of other Hunter Class shooters (with the heavier rifles). Yes, at this power level, you will need to refill your reservoir once for a 42 shot match, twice for a 60-shot GP event. But that is the only downside...
All the rifles you mention are excellent for FT. But they are much heavier as well. Unless you are an experienced hand and steady as a rock while shooting off-hand, it's something to keep in mind. Not an issue when shooting for fun. But giving up 5-6 points is a disadvantage in a competition.
All of us need more practice shooting off-hand. But in the squirrel woods, I can always find the nearest tree for support while standing.
Deep breath...
As for shooting prone... In decades of hunting, I've NEVER shot prone. In the woods, Mr. Squirrel doesn't stand still long enough to permit you to flop down on your belly, and once there, the game moves further right or left. Or, you're on your belly shooting uphill at a squirrel in a tree. Why volunteer to do that?
In Prairie Dog country, where the tallest shooting spport available is a rock 4" tall, it might make some sense. But otherwise, prone is not practical at all.
IMO, shooting prone is for patient (military) snipers, for extreme long range shooting, where concealment and a low profile is paramount, because the game shoots back. Squirrels don't carry AK47s. But I would want to hide from humans carrying AK47s.
So, for shooting unarmed critters in the woods, it's unrealistic. So, while some see prone (in the FT game) as an advantage, I see it as outside the spirit of "Hunter" Field Target, if Hunter Class is somehow a realistic simulation of hunting. Some of my best friends shoot prone, and I admire them for doing so. But we do debate the style in a light-hearted manner, and I ocassionally take delight in beating them while shooting with a bipod and stool... with my itty-bitty rifle.
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Bob,
Life would be far simpler, on this end, if I just bumped the power of the s200 from its current 10 fpe to more like 16 to 18 fpe and just used the s200 for HFT. I also shoot a couple other .177 rifles, one at 19 fpe, the other at 17.4 fpe, both with JSB 10.34 pellets. It is just easier for me to get good hits with the s200, especially offhand. Your excellent post about how to increase the fpe of an s200 would be the guide that I would follow.
Question: does increasing the fpe of the s200 reduce its splendid accuracy? I sure hope not.
Another thing, the s200 can use a magazine, this would reduce my fumbling for pellets and let me focus more on the task of shooting well. I would benchrest, both with and without the magazine, to find out if there is an accuracy tradeoff and if so by how much.
The niche the CZ s200 fills at present, that of low power but very accurate rifle, could be filled by, for instance, a Daisy 888 CO2, 10 meter target rifle. Thus the CZ at 10 fpe would be replaced by the 5 fpe Daisy 888, this would be better for garage shooting and far better than the 12 fpe Diana 34 that I use a lot for this use.
Does this seem a reasonable plane, to you?
Prone is a problem for me, getting up from a prone position is the biggest problem. I'll stick to sticks and stool (pun intended).
I see HFT and pretty much all airgun shooting as a hunting simulation. Any "hunting" I do is pretty much limited to insects, cactus leaves and prickley pears.
Best wishes and thanks for the help,
Mike
PS, Nov. 10 is a conflict for me, there is an RC sailboat race in Houston. See you at the next Yegua match we both go to.
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I too am a fan of the S200. I adjusted the tension on the hammer spring and adjusted the tp and got it shooting at 714fps/16.4fpe with JSB 8.4 pellets and it's plenty accurate.
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I too am a fan of the S200. I adjusted the tension on the hammer spring and adjusted the tp and got it shooting at 714fps/16.4fpe with JSB 8.4 pellets and it's plenty accurate.
Glad you enjoy your S200 as well, Tony. But you might look at your math. You would have to drive 8.4 gr pellets to 940fps to get 16.4fpe. 8.4 grainers at 714fps is actually 9.5fpe.
FPE = Weight-in Grains x (velocity x velocity) / 450240
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Question: does increasing the fpe of the s200 reduce its splendid accuracy? I sure hope not.
Nope, the accuracy is just as good at higher velocity. The effective speed range of the JSB pellets goes to 900fps or slightly more. My CZ shoots 10.3 graniers to just under 900fps, (890fpe) for 18fpe.
Another thing, the s200 can use a magazine, this would reduce my fumbling for pellets and let me focus more on the task of shooting well. I would benchrest, both with and without the magazine, to find out if there is an accuracy tradeoff and if so by how much.
It's just me, but I would NOT shoot from a magazine. There is potential for bending pellet skirts while feeding the pellets through the mag. More important, I've watched people lose track of how may pellets they have in the mag, during the match. Forget to change the mag when it's empty in the middle of a lane, and a shot without a pellet counts as a miss. People who have tried the magazines (in any FT rifle) have to be really good at counting shots and switching mags without reloading in the shooting position. At the bigger matches, your time on the line is on a timer, and you seldom have time to reload a mag while the timer is running.
Prone is a problem for me, getting up from a prone position is the biggest problem. I'll stick to sticks and stool (pun intended).
Same here. As you can tell, I also have a philosophical objection to Prone in FT.
PS, Nov. 10 is a conflict for me, there is an RC sailboat race in Houston. See you at the next Yegua match we both go to.
Sorry to hear. RC Sailboats sounds like fun, too. So we'll see you next time.
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Glad you enjoy your S200 as well, Tony. But you might look at your math. You would have to drive 8.4 gr pellets to 940fps to get 16.4fpe. 8.4 grainers at 714fps is actually 9.5fpe.
FPE = Weight-in Grains x (velocity x velocity) / 450240
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Ooops! Bob you are absolutely right. I copied the wrong data. My S200 is shooting the 8.4 JSB pellets at an average of 888fps/14.7fpe.
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Glad you enjoy your S200 as well, Tony. But you might look at your math. You would have to drive 8.4 gr pellets to 940fps to get 16.4fpe. 8.4 grainers at 714fps is actually 9.5fpe.
FPE = Weight-in Grains x (velocity x velocity) / 450240
Ooops! Bob you are absolutely right. I copied the wrong data. My S200 is shooting the 8.4 JSB pellets at an average of 888fps/14.7fpe.
Now you're talking! Yeah!
Have you tried the 10.3s? You might get even more FPE.
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I was shooting the 10.3's before I tweeked it. I was looking for a flatter trajectory at the longer shots. I'll certainly try the 10.3's again now that I have more fps/fpe.
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FYI, I recently installed a regulator in the cylinder of my pistol which can be used on the rifle as well. To read the details, simply click on the link in the original post in this thread...