GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Bladebum on February 14, 2021, 10:52:57 PM
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Some recent posts(both my own and others) have got me curious, how do you like to tune your German springers? Do you run a bought kit like a vortek, tin bum or ARH? Do you do something custom with different springs, seals and guides?
I'd like to hear your methods and preferences, what your goal is for each tune(power, shootability, etc) and your best description of the shot cycle. The performance details(what pellet, velocity, accuracy) would be excellent to hear.
I think it would be cool to just hear what everyone's own preferred methods are without too much debate, just for some good information and ideas!
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I ain't tellin.
;D
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Some have ARH kits, some have polished spring ends, one has a custom spring guide for a spring of my choosing. One had a Vortex kit but it was too harsh so I went back to the stock spring. I have no standard tune method and I've only played with Diana as far as German guns go. I don't play much over a chronograph so I can't give any kind of definitive results for comparison. I only shoot paper so accuracy and consistency are the concerns.
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I have done a couple of the “ghetto” tunes using heat shrink tubing to shim the spring guide. That takes out the slop and reduces/eliminates the spring buzz/twang when shot. Not every gun is a good candidate for this type of modification. I’m using the factory spring.
I have used JM kits and Vortek kits in some. I personally prefer the JM kits using either an OEM piston seal or the Vortek VAC seal. I found the JM seals brittle. That may not be the case these day but I’ve been happy with the VAC seal so that’s what I’m familiar with.
I have also used custom turned delrin guides on factory springs.
I have done the whole deburring of the receiver tube and tried honing (brake cylinder hone) the compression chamber and tried a mirror finish on compression tubes too. I have pistons with JMs “old school” glue on buttons and some without.
There are more details that I could list. Really, I have a hodge podge of different workings I have done to the many HW springers in my cabinet. I start with the basics and see how the rifle responds. If it’s not what I’m looking for I start getting deeper into it with installing kits, buttoning pistons etc...
Usually just a simple clean up, relube, adjustment and proper fitting spring/guide is all I need to transform the rifle into something more enjoyable for myself.
One more thing that I like.... the HW rifles that are normally in the 15-17 fpe power range I will cut coils/detune to the 12-13 fpe range. I prefer them there and makes the shooting experience more enjoyable to me. I don’t li,e tuning springers “hot”.
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Hey Josh,
I usually tune them right out of the box - after checking for damage and basic shoot-ability.
My Process:
1) I start by cleaning the barrel thoroughly with 400 grit clover and JB Paste.
2) Replace OEM spring with ARH spring (couple times Vortek) - No kits (too expensive) - polish ends.
3) De-bur all receiver slots, edges which could cause binding/cutting - cross hatch compression chamber.
4) Completely de-grease internals - use OEM piston seal and spring guide if snug in ARH spring. If not, make a new guide along with a top-hat - fully utilizing the piston space for power.
5) Button the piston, polish tang and use plastic sleeve around spring until snug.
6) Use appropriate ARH Clear, Heavy Tar and Molly Paste where needed.
7) Disassemble Trigger, polishing sears with 1200 paper and dremmel/Mothers Mag Polish.
8.) Remove and polish barrel indent/spring/cavity - re-lube with clear tar (Jason ;)).
9) Remove open sights and replace with custom Muzzle Brake - add 4x12x40 Hawke or 4x16x44 UTG scope.
Shoot the gun and see how shot cycle feels. Using the ARH spring and maxing out piston spacing gives more power, but adding buttons to smooth the piston - takes away velocity. I tend to like a cushion-y shot cycle and adjust top-hat length, cut coils etc. to get what I'm looking for. Hard to describe, but I know it when I feel it.
Try to tune all my Weihrauch rifles this way - maximizing power while building in tight tolerances which can reduce power. In the end, I de-tune until the shot cycle is to my liking.
Lastly, want to give a big shout out to Mark (Yoda), Fang, Motorhead and NCED who greatly help me arrive at my MO ;).
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I tweaked an HW77k seven ways to Sunday, trying all kinds of stuff and eventually sold it. I had that gun torn apart at least 10 times, vortek springs, Maccarri springs, Vortek vac seals, Maccarri hornet seals, oem seals. The most helpful addition seemed to be a short stroke piston addition from TinBum in England. It just never shot quite like I wanted it too.
The "tune" Ive been most pleased with was when I simply rebuilt my .177 HW50s with a a full power Maccarri tune kit (top hat, rear guide, spring). Maccarri kits don't come with seals and I decided to go with a Maccarri Hornet piston seal from the experience with the HW77k. Sized the Hornet seal to fit my particular comp tube correctly. Extremely minimal amount of Maccarri heavy tar on the spring/guides, the entire dollop was perhaps the size of a 18.1gr .22 pellet. Very small amount of moly lube on the ends of the spring. Spring ends were polished too. Very small amount of lube in the resized area of the base of the piston seal, and then wiped off (I think it was moly here but can't remember for sure). Was going for an impregnated concept but didn't want any lube to get ahead of the piston.
Generally seems that small amounts of lube help reduce the temp sensitivities issue.
The HW50s shoots JSB 7.87 @ 710-715fps if it's warmer than a about 65 degrees and around 725-730 if it's colder than around 50. Very consistent and reliable in fps. I attribute the difference to the piston seal being a little smaller in colder weather. I live at 5600 feet so weaker than most HW50s shoot.
Very smooth shot cycle. No buzz, nothing harsh, no mechanical sounds, just a thump sound and feel. QUICK.
I actually just last night saw that Maccarri seals are a little on sale right now so placed an order for a couple more Hornet seals, another spring, and some breech seals. I like the "tune" enough that would like to be able to replicate it a couple times in the future so these ordered seals will go into long-term storage.
(On the topic of ordering from Maccarri....his website says to contact him if a spring is a replacement for a kit so I did. Emailed him saying it was to eventually replace a kit I bought in summer of 2018. He responds back with a thanks and that the order was all packaged up to be shipped. I heard back from him less than. 12 hrs after I placed the order.)
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ARH seals .. every thing else fabricated in house. Tricks used in the shadows of the typical remain proprietary.
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ARH seals .. every thing else fabricated in house. Tricks used in the shadows of the typical remain proprietary.
Noth'in like Tricks in the Shadows... :o :D ;) ;D
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SHHHHH ;)
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The main thing with HW springers (New guide and Top hat accepted) is the seal is not much cop.
Fitting a good quality parachute seal, like the Aussie red will improve the consistency, especially the heat sensitivity consistency.
Tinbum kits are a bit hit and miss, with no lead chamfers, or hand finishing, rapidly machined down to a price. Ok for a shooter wanting a cheap kit off the shelf that will kill twang, but that is about it. Expect the odd breakage and occasionally not fitting. He absolutely does not accept his kits break occasionally, despite me fixing a good half dozen of the darn things. The other issue is Tinbum kits use the same material for the spacing rings (thrust washers) This is a very bad engineering principal as 2 materials which act on each other need to be a different material to the other, or the faces start to pick up on each other...Its basic stuff really, it must have been done to keep cost down.
You really need to buy a kit that has been hand fitted to a spring to guarantee the fit, as every mainspring is slightly different for the same gun....so a kit that comes included and already fitted to the guide and top hat.
Also one which uses different materials for the slip rings and offer the choice of a delrin or steel top hat to suit the pellet weight you are using. The kits that do this is VMach and Maccari.
Vortex is another such kit, but i have never been that keen on sleeves. A hit and miss Top hat fit is one thing, but a sleeve can be even more critical and can be more trouble than they are worth.
If you have a well fitted guide and top hat, it keeps things simple, and if done right, does not require anything more.
My recommendation (personal choice based on my own 30 years of tuning) is a suitably prepared and polished mainspring ends, nice slide fit Guide rod. No slip ring...it adds nothing detectable and just shortens the effective length of the guide. Then a tight Top hat of steel, or Delrin (if you must) and ahead of it a slip ring of your chosen spacing and of a different material to your top hat. This way, the top hat can revolve on a different material and not have to revolve on burrs, or pick up marks often found at the bottom of the piston.
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Don't see how it would be different than tuning any other springer.
Working on springers normally involves some cussing... maybe the cussing would be in German?
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Agreed...it aint, unless a &^^& quality gun.
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I work in the shadows too, but due to poor lighting.
As a complete newb, I cannot claim to “Tune”, but I have installed a Vortek kit in both of my HWs.
When apart, I deberred and cleaned them up. Neither had very much lube at all from the factory. I have new seals on hand, but stuck with the factory seals on both as they were undamaged.
They are both a joy to shoot compared to out of the box. I didn’t put a kit in the 30 until recently. I thought it was so nice out of the box, especially compared to the 95.
I tried a TBT kit, guides fitted to a new factory spring, but it is so close to coil bound that I would have had to shorten the spring to get it to cock. Not a big deal, but more than I wanted to fool with at the time so I put in the Vortek kit.
I like the Vortek spring as it is unfinished. I clipped one coil at a time from the 95 to take the edge off it and make it’s power align better with my shooting ability. Not having to finish the end of the spring was a plus for me at that time.
Now if I add a third HW, I may have that one professionally done to see the difference.
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Noth'in like Tricks in the Shadows... :o :D ;) ;D
Turning tricks; or milling tricks?
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Little bit of fun with some verbiage and MINDS GO WILD. Entry and exit angles of ports, seals tendency to get burnt, nicked or impact damaged etc all have ways to mitigate. Surface finishes, tolerance of fit where it matters is huge. Vibration transfer across parts can also be addressed w/o tars.
Like near anything mechanical there are cause & effect traits one can follow to find the weak link/s and sometimes help or correct & sometimes not.
As such, effort spent can be effective or be a waste of time and effort. Any given design has limitations to what can realistically be done ( Cost or effort ) and any tuner who knows his way around these mechanical devises quickly or over time realizes this.
JMO ...
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Little bit of fun with some verbiage and MINDS GO WILD. Entry and exit angles of ports, seals tendency to get burnt, nicked or impact damaged etc all have ways to mitigate. Surface finishes, tolerance of fit where it matters is huge. Vibration transfer across parts can also be addressed w/o tars.
Like near anything mechanical there are cause & effect traits one can follow to find the weak link/s and sometimes help or correct & sometimes not.
As such, effort spent can be effective or be a waste of time and effort. Any given design has limitations to what can realistically be done ( Cost or effort ) and any tuner who knows his way around these mechanical devises quickly or over time realizes this.
JMO ...
Spoken like a true Engineer....
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How do i tune my guns??? Just about like the rest of us springer heads. Kits, rework, custom parts when i get my own lathe. No big secrets to my methods other than to make a springer shoot with better cocking and firing characteristics. Not necessarily faster though. I will admit that I tune mine with a little extra lube for a slick and juicy feel, but they are my guns and I know how i like them setup. Tuning spring guns can be a very personal affair. Some want smooth shooters, some want magnum results in a quest for higher numbers, and some prefer to detune their guns for a variety of reasons. Often times it comes down to trial and error until you get it just right,...for your particular taste.
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I don't.
I can and have before, heard the muttered gasps of "blasphemer" from the audience. The sharp intakes of breath from fellow members who mutter how dare he not with that fine German rifle. Even been told in private if that's the way I think I never should have bought one...lol. And yes it's happened because there are members who know whatever gets said in a PM has to stay there and is not allowed to be made public on this forum so they know they can get away with it...lol.
I don't because I do now and always have thought that for what I paid to get my hands on the fine pieces of German engineering I do own and I have 5 of them, I should not have to do anything more than clean the barrel, check the stock screws, drop of oil on pivot points and go shoot it.
For the record, I do have one rifle that came tuned and to be honest, if I'd thought about it more at the time, I would have asked that it be returned to the factory spring and seal before it was shipped to me.
Now let me go grab some popcorn and sit back to enjoy the replies I'll get for what I just typed...lolololololololol
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(On the topic of ordering from Maccarri....his website says to contact him if a spring is a replacement for a kit so I did. Emailed him saying it was to eventually replace a kit I bought in summer of 2018. He responds back with a thanks and that the order was all packaged up to be shipped. I heard back from him less than. 12 hrs after I placed the order.)
Jim provides great service - period ;).
He may be a little gruff at times, but if you show him you want to learn ... he comes through will all the answers.
Sometimes you just need to "suggest" that he needs to lighten-up :D.
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I don't.
I can and have before, heard the muttered gasps of "blasphemer" from the audience. The sharp intakes of breath from fellow members who mutter how dare he not with that fine German rifle. Even been told in private if that's the way I think I never should have bought one...lol. And yes it's happened because there are members who know whatever gets said in a PM has to stay there and is not allowed to be made public on this forum so they know they can get away with it...lol.
I don't because I do now and always have thought that for what I paid to get my hands on the fine pieces of German engineering I do own and I have 5 of them, I should not have to do anything more than clean the barrel, check the stock screws, drop of oil on pivot points and go shoot it.
For the record, I do have one rifle that came tuned and to be honest, if I'd thought about it more at the time, I would have asked that it be returned to the factory spring and seal before it was shipped to me.
Now let me go grab some popcorn and sit back to enjoy the replies I'll get for what I just typed...lolololololololol
I hear you and agree.
A fine top of the line German engineered piece of machinery, as they are often referred to as, shouldn't even need the stock screws tightened. Sure, they all need maintenance and springs orings and seals are perishables but from the line to my door, they should not have perished.
ALL airguns can benefit from a certain level of TLC out of the box but, If I'm paying 6 and 7 hundred bucks for one, it better be minimal or the vendor will want to keep an eye on his receiving dock. "You got mail".
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I don't.
I can and have before, heard the muttered gasps of "blasphemer" from the audience. The sharp intakes of breath from fellow members who mutter how dare he not with that fine German rifle. Even been told in private if that's the way I think I never should have bought one...lol. And yes it's happened because there are members who know whatever gets said in a PM has to stay there and is not allowed to be made public on this forum so they know they can get away with it...lol.
I don't because I do now and always have thought that for what I paid to get my hands on the fine pieces of German engineering I do own and I have 5 of them, I should not have to do anything more than clean the barrel, check the stock screws, drop of oil on pivot points and go shoot it.
For the record, I do have one rifle that came tuned and to be honest, if I'd thought about it more at the time, I would have asked that it be returned to the factory spring and seal before it was shipped to me.
Now let me go grab some popcorn and sit back to enjoy the replies I'll get for what I just typed...lolololololololol
Hey Steve,
How Dare You ... complain about the Boneheads that inhabit the GTA :o.
If you really want to hear some crazy stuff, look no further than here: https://theresistance.video/
PS: All airguns can be made better with a little TLC ... :D
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I don't.
I can and have before, heard the muttered gasps of "blasphemer" from the audience. The sharp intakes of breath from fellow members who mutter how dare he not with that fine German rifle. Even been told in private if that's the way I think I never should have bought one...lol. And yes it's happened because there are members who know whatever gets said in a PM has to stay there and is not allowed to be made public on this forum so they know they can get away with it...lol.
I don't because I do now and always have thought that for what I paid to get my hands on the fine pieces of German engineering I do own and I have 5 of them, I should not have to do anything more than clean the barrel, check the stock screws, drop of oil on pivot points and go shoot it.
For the record, I do have one rifle that came tuned and to be honest, if I'd thought about it more at the time, I would have asked that it be returned to the factory spring and seal before it was shipped to me.
Now let me go grab some popcorn and sit back to enjoy the replies I'll get for what I just typed...lolololololololol
You might not get the response you imagined....I partially agree with your view...
Half of the improvement in shooting quality guns like these has come mostly from the improvement in pellets.
Tuning growth has run in parallel to the to the growth of better pellets...If you try a decent springer and do nothing, you will be surprised by just how accurate they are. We automatically thinking it has to be our tuning..
Also what happened to just learn to shoot...
I have a vintage 1930 BSA which i have refused to modify. It shoots same hole groups at 10 yards on 90 year old technology, mainly because of modern pellets and me having learnt the gun...
A good example is many Uk shooters switching back in the steel top hat of their Prosports, enjoying a bit more power and once getting use to it, finding it more accurate....Why?
.....because British shooters have been on a long trend to de tune their guns to 10 ftlbs for the nicer cycle, but forgot the part where the pellet gets out of the gun quicker at 12 ftlbs...Not quite so nice to shoot but the pellets gone before the slightly heavier cycle hits.
My maxim is not reducing the power of airguns but just making it consistent...then learning to shoot it...You could do a lot worse....TBT kit for the HW45 proves this in spades....The kit damps it ok, but turns it into a benign 4.5ftlbs of no greater power than a regular pistol. Get the weight into the piston, hit 600 fps and learn to shoot it....or what is the point of the design.
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Not for nothing but, I'm pretty good with a sling shot at 30 feet. I probably won't spend that kind of money to shoot 10 yds.
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I always get a kick when someone says they don't "believe" in tuning, LOL
If I pay $50K for a new truck, I shouldn't ever have to buy tires for it, they should last forever ! ::)
If you think new stock guns shoot just as good as WELL tuned guns, you have never shot a well tuned gun. IMO
I see the advice all the time, don't get it tuned, just shoot 20,000 pellets through it and it will settle down. :o
Buzzy, screws loosening or tightening, having to wait to long for the accuracy to come.
Ain't nobody got time for that ;D
Tuning gets rid of all this immediately.
I get my guns tuned just as soon as I can, usually send them straight to John in PA.
I tune for smoothness and accuracy, not for power.
I use Vortek kits in all my guns, I tell John what FPS with what pellet I want, and he nails it every time.
I will recommend tuning 100% of the time, because I know how much more pleasant it makes a gun shoot. 8)
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Not for nothing but, I'm pretty good with a sling shot at 30 feet. I probably won't spend that kind of money to shoot 10 yds.
I agree, if 10 yards was all I shot a red ryder would do.
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Never said I don't "believe" in tuning, just said I don't feel I should have to with a NIB rifle, especially not one I pay that kind of money for...lol.
No doubt the day will come since springs and seals don't last forever and when that day comes, I will :)
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Never said I don't "believe" in tuning, just said I don't feel I should have to with a NIB rifle, especially not one I pay that kind of money for...lol.
No doubt the day will come since springs and seals don't last forever and when that day comes, I will :)
And when it does, you won't be happy with an untuned gun again. ;)
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Never said I don't "believe" in tuning, just said I don't feel I should have to with a NIB rifle, especially not one I pay that kind of money for...lol.
No doubt the day will come since springs and seals don't last forever and when that day comes, I will :)
And when it does, you won't be happy with an untuned gun again. ;)
I have a fully tuned German rifle, professionally done and I'm still very happy shooting my other 4 untuned Germans ;)
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Well, the Walther LGV and LGU were supposed to be "tuned" right out of the box. Fancy piston rings, etc. Well these rifles were about $200 more than comparable Weihrauchs and guess what?????
People were not willing to spend the extra, so they are no more....... :'(
-Y
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Never said I don't "believe" in tuning, just said I don't feel I should have to with a NIB rifle, especially not one I pay that kind of money for...lol.
Hey Steve,
This is the point were I diverge from your way of thinking ::). Not going to try to put you down, because a German Springer is absolutely fine out-of-the-box.
- Plus, it's not like your saying, "Tuning a gun will reduce its Value" or "I don't believe in ever cleaning my barrel."
But much like a nice Sports Car or a new House, you may want to "trick it out" or install new carpeting or counter tops, new sinks or toilets.
It's the same thing ;).
While you "Shouldn't Have To" or "Don't Need To" since you just spent a great deal of Money , you want to because your gonna drive it or live in it for awhile - Right?
So for me, when I can tune a new gun in two days for about $25 - it's not even a question of "Should" or "If" or "Why" ... it's because I plan to shoot the airgun for some time and it's worth the investment to me.
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The crazy thing, is How much Time I've spent learning airgun tuning, to arrive at a point where I can turn a Beautiful Weihrauch into a Crown Jewel :o.
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To his credit, I don't think Steve is saying he would not tune a new gun. I think he is saying that he doesn't want to have to.
If I pay that much for a gun tuning should be a preference and not a must. It goes back to what I've always said.. Every gun could benefit from some level of TLC. And everyone loves bling.... ;)
I shouldn't need to do my own quality control on a $700 gun. That should be done before I open the box.
Tightening screws, replacing nicked seals, cleaning up stamped trigger contact points and proper lubing? What if I don't know how to do those things? Well, my thought would be, I spend the extra money for the top of the line and expect to "get what I pay for".
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It's all about expectations, some are lower, some are higher. Neither is wrong.
Should I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? Probably not........ Do I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? YEP
That's because MY expectations are high.
When I plan on buying a new springer, I budget for the gun and a tune right from the start.
Some suffer from TDS (Tune Derangement Syndrome) They may not really want to spend the money to get a gun tuned, which is fine, or they don't believe it tuning, but they don't want anyone else to get a gun tuned either :o
So when someone asks an opinion about getting a gun tuned, they say DON'T DO IT ! and don't pay any attention to anyone that tells you you should. :-\
This doesn't help anyone, why not just give your opinion and experiences and leave it at that.
Good news is there is a cure for TDS !! Get you a good German springer and have it tuned for smoothness and accuracy 8)
TDS will start to subside and you will see what you have been missing. ;)
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No surprise that there would be a lot of enthusiasm for "tuning" on a forum dedicated to German spring guns. First thing I do with any new spring gun is open it up, apply the proper lubes and drop in an ARH or Vortek spring, guide and seal. Tinkering with new springs and seals to adjust power and shot cycles is one of the things I enjoy most about this hobby. A couple of my guns were also shipped out to professional tuners.
That said, IMHO the marginal benefits of "tuning" are often exaggerated. For the majority of owners who don't shoot a lot, a tune kit or pro tune probably isn't worth the extra $100-$300+.
R
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Well I think back to something the Joanie, NWCG said when discussing her new FWB 124. She said her gun "jumped" when shot. Now, that would drive me crazy!!!!!!!!!
But since she is a better shot then I am, well good for her! As long as the pellets goes sort of where you want it to, it is ALL GOOD! ;D
-Y
PS I do not want my horses to kick me in the head, I do not want my dogs to hump my leg, I do not want my airguns to jump when fired. Strange, I know... ??? ::)
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There is no need to tune German springers...
Especially Weihrauchs, they are the BEST shooting springers out of the box !! Everybody is recommended to buy one because of that...
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PS: I do not want my horses to kick me in the head, I do not want my dogs to hump my leg, I do not want my airguns to jump when fired. Strange, I know... ??? ::)
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You sure have a strange way of making a marginal point.
My HW80S (.20 cal) at 19 FPE is jumpy or has a very sudden, shot cycle, however, it's my most accurate 30+ yard shooter. If recoil can be controlled... it's no big deal, as you can hit The Mark ;).
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It's all about expectations, some are lower, some are higher. Neither is wrong.
Should I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? Probably not........ Do I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? YEP
That's because MY expectations are high.
When I plan on buying a new springer, I budget for the gun and a tune right from the start.
Some suffer from TDS (Tune Derangement Syndrome) They may not really want to spend the money to get a gun tuned, which is fine, or they don't believe it tuning, but they don't want anyone else to get a gun tuned either :o
So when someone asks an opinion about getting a gun tuned, they say DON'T DO IT ! and don't pay any attention to anyone that tells you you should. :-\
This doesn't help anyone, why not just give your opinion and experiences and leave it at that.
Good news is there is a cure for TDS !! Get you a good German springer and have it tuned for smoothness and accuracy 8)
TDS will start to subside and you will see what you have been missing. ;)
I've been around the forums 5+ years now and I say forums because I belong to more than a few. No, not long compared to a lot of members on those forums but I read them and a lot. I've read plenty on tuning vs not tuning and the opinions across the board on the subject. I freely admit I used to be that guy that said "Don't do it".
We both know all the above comments are aimed at me and that's fine, again, I'm used to it..lol. It also shows yet again that my long held belief that members either ignore what I post or only pick up on the parts they want to is proven yet again. I say that because you obviously haven't. If you had truly paid attention, you would have noticed that when I do say anything about tuning a new gun, my usual response for a couple years now has been to say shoot a tin pellets through it and get a feel for everything about that new rifle so if you decide to have it tuned, you'll see and feel the difference. You know, the way you stated you used to which was as soon as possible until you decided to budget for the tune along with the new rifle and just have them sent straight to the tuner first.
I gave my opinions and experiences and I left them at that, unlike you and the snarky TDS aka Tune Derangement Syndrome comment. Nowhere in the comments I have made did I tell anyone NOT to or try to stop them or say because I don't, I don't want them to either. All I said was "I don't" and why I don't...lol.
I'll also refer back to the point of people only reading the parts of my posts they want because like you said above, your "Cure for TDS" is to "Get you a good German springer and have it tuned for smoothness and accuracy" and both you and Chase would appear to have totally missed/ignored where I said I actually already do own one, Professionally tuned before I ever got the rifle, and have mentioned the fact that I do several times now so, Yes Kids, I do know the difference between a well tuned German springer and an untuned one...lol. BTW, thank you for not sending the Beeman R9 .20 cal off to a tuner before I bought it from you, although when the time comes that I decide to or it needs to be, I can send it off to John in PA or just do it myself since I know how :)
I'll end with pics of that already mentioned several times, Professionally tuned and will add Custom Built by Diana no less, Diana D34k Premium .20 caliber break barrel, Number 15 of 30 made :)
Bladebum, my apologies for derailing your thread and to everyone reading: tune or not to tune that choice is yours and yours alone to make :)
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Rob, ur exactly right, most AG manufactures do not expect people to shoot these rifles like most of us here do! so they do not need a tune if u do not care about what ur doing to a rifle, educated people who expect the best performance and shoot a lot do what we do! most AG manufactures build rifles for the average shooter, who will shoot a few hundred shots a yr, the average spring life is about 4k shots, so if u only shoot a few hundred a yr? that OEM set up will last u a life time, if ur a true shooter and 1 that expects the best an AG can be? well u know! That's why we here talk about how making them the best they can be, but if u think u can live with out proper maintenance or fixing the factories short comings and ur happy with what u have? theirs nothing wrong with that, its ur rifle! ;)
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It's all about expectations, some are lower, some are higher. Neither is wrong.
Should I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? Probably not........ Do I have to tune a new springer to enjoy it ? YEP
That's because MY expectations are high.
When I plan on buying a new springer, I budget for the gun and a tune right from the start.
Some suffer from TDS (Tune Derangement Syndrome) They may not really want to spend the money to get a gun tuned, which is fine, or they don't believe it tuning, but they don't want anyone else to get a gun tuned either :o
So when someone asks an opinion about getting a gun tuned, they say DON'T DO IT ! and don't pay any attention to anyone that tells you you should. :-\
This doesn't help anyone, why not just give your opinion and experiences and leave it at that.
Good news is there is a cure for TDS !! Get you a good German springer and have it tuned for smoothness and accuracy 8)
TDS will start to subside and you will see what you have been missing. ;)
I've been around the forums 5+ years now and I say forums because I belong to more than a few. No, not long compared to a lot of members on those forums but I read them and a lot. I've read plenty on tuning vs not tuning and the opinions across the board on the subject. I freely admit I used to be that guy that said "Don't do it".
We both know all the above comments are aimed at me and that's fine, again, I'm used to it..lol. It also shows yet again that my long held belief that members either ignore what I post or only pick up on the parts they want to is proven yet again. I say that because you obviously haven't. If you had truly paid attention, you would have noticed that when I do say anything about tuning a new gun, my usual response for a couple years now has been to say shoot a tin pellets through it and get a feel for everything about that new rifle so if you decide to have it tuned, you'll see and feel the difference. You know, the way you stated you used to which was as soon as possible until you decided to budget for the tune along with the new rifle and just have them sent straight to the tuner first.
I gave my opinions and experiences and I left them at that, unlike you and the snarky TDS aka Tune Derangement Syndrome comment. Nowhere in the comments I have made did I tell anyone NOT to or try to stop them or say because I don't, I don't want them to either. All I said was "I don't" and why I don't...lol.
I'll also refer back to the point of people only reading the parts of my posts they want because like you said above, your "Cure for TDS" is to "Get you a good German springer and have it tuned for smoothness and accuracy" and both you and Chase would appear to have totally missed/ignored where I said I actually already do own one, Professionally tuned before I ever got the rifle, and have mentioned the fact that I do several times now so, Yes Kids, I do know the difference between a well tuned German springer and an untuned one...lol. BTW, thank you for not sending the Beeman R9 .20 cal off to a tuner before I bought it from you, although when the time comes that I decide to or it needs to be, I can send it off to John in PA or just do it myself since I know how :)
I'll end with pics of that already mentioned several times, Professionally tuned and will add Custom Built by Diana no less, Diana D34k Premium .20 caliber break barrel, Number 15 of 30 made :)
Bladebum, my apologies for derailing your thread and to everyone reading: tune or not to tune that choice is yours and yours alone to make :)
Hmmm, feeling guilty Steve ? You sure do see yourself in a lot of my comments ?
My comment were directed at anyone that is a never tuner, and has told someone don't pay attention to anyone that tells you to tune an airgun. Ever done that ? ::) If the shoe fits ?
Just because you THINK comments are directed at you, doesn't mean they always are. ???
It's really not always about you like Steve, like you seem to think. LOL
The "snarky" TDS was joke...........come on man.
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Alright guys.... let's not make it anymore personal than it is right now.
I admit being guilty myself for some of the derail but, the topic is "How do YOU tune your German springer" not why do you or don't you.
So, if you DO tune your German springer, the OP is asking about your methods.
My apologies to the OP.
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The short answer is yes you do! whether it needs it or not! it will save any air gun or shooter the long term effects of damage or frustration to both the gun or shooter in the long run!, I don't care if its a Chinese gun! JMO ;D
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LOL... again... that ain't the question.
The op wants tips on tuning.
For example... I don't own one nor have I ever tuned one so I really have no dog in the fight.
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I don't tune my air rifles. It's not that I'm mechanically competent. I'm competent enough to realize that a competent air rifle mechanic has ways and means to tune these things that I'm not privy to, just as they might not be privy to my knowledge about appliances! So, I just send mine to Motorhead!
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Alright guys.... let's not make it anymore personal than it is right now.
I admit being guilty myself for some of the derail but, the topic is "How do YOU tune your German springer" not why do you or don't you.
So, if you DO tune your German springer, the OP is asking about your methods.
My apologies to the OP.
Ok....Black Delrin rear guide, with a chamfer, allowing a seating washer which completely encompasses the base of the guide. I use high grade silver steel for this washer, which I harden (heat to cherry red and drop it into a beaker of oil)
The Top hat is of the same steel and treatment. No chance of breakage and this allows the fit to be tight. Hardened steel has super low coefficient of friction and never causes pick up or galling on the guns steel.
My pet hate is Delrin/Acetal top hats. Sick and tired of trying to extract ones which got themselves hammered in and replacing broken ones ...I curse TBT kits ..."dang" breakages, but if you want to use a Delrin Top hat, do not make them tight...it will last longer..
Its because im a tuner for a club....percentages...it works and is reliable. 30 years at it.
Stop worrying so much about steel top hats, enjoy the power they make and learn to shoot.
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Tuning is ant art! that only comes from experience! sure u can throw in a spring kit from whom ever, that's not a tuned gun, tuning a rifle takes the know how of of a guns response to added or non added materials, to acquire the desired level of what ur looking for out of the guns performance, that said, it all depends on ur what u think ur looking for from a tuned rifle? ;D
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Tuning is ant art! that only comes from experience! sure u can throw in a spring kit from whom ever, that's not a tuned gun, tuning a rifle takes the know how of of a guns response to added or non added materials, to acquire the desired level of what ur looking for out of the guns performance, that said, it all depends on ur what u think ur looking for from a tuned rifle? ;D
What he said.
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Also to add not everyone is going to tell all in what they do to a tune, if everybody knew how to tune a rifle correctly tuners would be so to speak out of business! and this would be child's play! but its not, a lot of attention to detail and the correct methods and usage of materials is what a tuner does, and we make them shine, not saying a self proclaimed home tune is not good! but some can do it a tic better JMO :o
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LOL... again... that ain't the question.
The op wants tips on tuning.
For example... I don't own one nor have I ever tuned one so I really have no dog in the fight.
Yeah, I took this thread out in left field. Sorry OP.
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LOL... again... that ain't the question.
The op wants tips on tuning.
For example... I don't own one nor have I ever tuned one so I really have no dog in the fight.
Yeah, I took this thread out in left field. Sorry OP.
Lol ...maybe if we all stop worrying about little bits of plastic parts....and just get out in the field and shoot...
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Alright guys.... let's not make it anymore personal than it is right now.
I admit being guilty myself for some of the derail but, the topic is "How do YOU tune your German springer" not why do you or don't you.
So, if you DO tune your German springer, the OP is asking about your methods.
My apologies to the OP.
Ok....Black Delrin rear guide, with a chamfer, allowing a seating washer which completely encompasses the base of the guide. I use high grade silver steel for this washer, which I harden (heat to cherry red and drop it into a beaker of oil)
The Top hat is of the same steel and treatment. No chance of breakage and this allows the fit to be tight. Hardened steel has super low coefficient of friction and never causes pick up or galling on the guns steel.
My pet hate is Delrin/Acetal top hats. Sick and tired of trying to extract ones which got themselves hammered in and replacing broken ones ...I curse TBT kits ..."dang" breakages, but if you want to use a Delrin Top hat, do not make them tight...it will last longer..
Its because im a tuner for a club....percentages...it works and is reliable. 30 years at it.
Stop worrying so much about steel top hats, enjoy the power they make and learn to shoot.
So are you a moly grease guy or a krytox guy? Or something completely different? ::)
-Y
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Well, this went about like I thought it might lol.
I really just like to gather info and hear different ways of doing things. I've been throwing vortek kits in my guns for a few years now, and while they work great, thought maybe it'd be fun to start trying some other ways...you know, tinkering ;D
I also realize that putting in a "kit" doesn't exactly mean the gun is tuned, but it is a big part of any tune. I have been wanting to try an ARH spring and possibly turn my own guides on my lathe but there are so many options for springs, guides, tuning methods that I thought id just see how everyone liked to do thier own rifles.
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Well, this went about like I thought it might lol.
I really just like to gather info and hear different ways of doing things. I've been throwing vortek kits in my guns for a few years now, and while they work great, thought maybe it'd be fun to start trying some other ways...you know, tinkering ;D
I also realize that putting in a "kit" doesn't exactly mean the gun is tuned, but it is a big part of any tune. I have been wanting to try an ARH spring and possibly turn my own guides on my lathe but there are so many options for springs, guides, tuning methods that I thought id just see how everyone liked to do thier own rifles.
Josh,
Too bad Bigfork, MT isn't closer, you could stop by and help tune a gun :D
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There's a lot of good information here. I've never tuned any of my Diana's, as they've been good enough out of the box, until I unboxed and shot my D350. It was very dry and could hear/feel the spring compressing very roughly. A little moly paste goes a long way. Before I knew better, I just used synthetic (lithium) grease with moly (the "wrong stuff ") in my cheap springers. It worked though. There's a lot of good information throughout these posts, if only somebody would condense it all and make a sticky for the diy people. I don't want to take away from the pro tuners, but general guidelines about spring guides, springs (as in coil count, wire diameter, and a swap guide to reduce/maximize power,ect,) lubes to use and such.
I would still like to have a pro tune, but was raised to fix things myself. So if a piston seal goes I strip the gun down, degrease, remove/install new seal, relube and reassemble. But that's not tuning. Or is it... Haha. I'm relatively new to springers, haven't worn a spring out, but started with gas ram guns that needed new seals. Now I'm tinkering with springs.
Thanks everyone for good input, now and over the years.
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OK here's kind of a basic tune ;D
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177798.msg156014642#msg156014642 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177798.msg156014642#msg156014642)
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Alright guys.... let's not make it anymore personal than it is right now.
I admit being guilty myself for some of the derail but, the topic is "How do YOU tune your German springer" not why do you or don't you.
So, if you DO tune your German springer, the OP is asking about your methods.
My apologies to the OP.
Ok....Black Delrin rear guide, with a chamfer, allowing a seating washer which completely encompasses the base of the guide. I use high grade silver steel for this washer, which I harden (heat to cherry red and drop it into a beaker of oil)
The Top hat is of the same steel and treatment. No chance of breakage and this allows the fit to be tight. Hardened steel has super low coefficient of friction and never causes pick up or galling on the guns steel.
My pet hate is Delrin/Acetal top hats. Sick and tired of trying to extract ones which got themselves hammered in and replacing broken ones ...I curse TBT kits ..."dang" breakages, but if you want to use a Delrin Top hat, do not make them tight...it will last longer..
Its because im a tuner for a club....percentages...it works and is reliable. 30 years at it.
Stop worrying so much about steel top hats, enjoy the power they make and learn to shoot.
So are you a moly grease guy or a krytox guy? Or something completely different? ::)
-Y
Touch of Moly around rear bearing of piston and quick wipe around mainspring..
Dab of STP around seal.....touch of sewing machine oil in trigger works..
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I'm pretty much an amateur at tuning since I don't do it for other people, but what I generally do is
- degrease the tube with brake cleaner
- file/deburr the cocking slot
- replace the seal (since it's most likely nicked)
- new guide and top hat
- light moly on piston, back edge of seal, and guides
I usually start with the OEM spring for this just to see what kind of difference changing guides makes. Since I have a small lathe I'm making the guide and top hat a tight fit to the spring, and out of a plastic called "slippery UMHW". It should be less brittle than Delrin, but I probably have less than 1000 shots on the first gun I put it in. Seems to be holding up, but I may try steel in the future. Generally leave the trigger internals alone in the German guns, but have replaced a bent trigger blade in an HW.
I also feel like the initial teardown is a good way to get to know a new gun. That way if something starts acting weird in the future, I might have a better chance of figuring it out.
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Touch of Moly around rear bearing of piston and quick wipe around mainspring..
Dab of STP around seal......
[/quote]
Plus 1 on the STP only I mix it with a bit of moly and both very sparingly.
Perhaps one of the most important things to do is start a notebook where you log everything you’ve dove to a particular gun and note it’s fps/FPE . Over the years, I’ve done so many different things I have a hard time remembering what I’ve done or exactly what lubes I’ve used, or which spring...Some have krytox and some do not. These things are important to keep track of. It’s also nice to record performance so you can judge how the tune holds up in time.
Most of all have fun with it. 😉
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All the usual things we have come to expect from such discussions are are fine.
De- burring cocking slot and mainspring ....polishing of parts...An Aussie seal perhaps...A delrin guide of nice slide fit...maybe a few slip rings to set the power right and remove felt torque...A Top hat.
.....but for me it started to go tilt with this this idiotic thinking of driven on Guides and Top hats....
This hair brain thinking is flawed and has caused the problems ....if i might explain..
1) The original thinking for this, is based on the pre load that all springers have. If we consider this pre load, we assume that the spring will open up slightly as we compress the 1 inch or so of pre load into the gun at closure.
This then making the mainspring a loose fit on the guide rod because the mainspring will have opened slightly in diameter. So what we need to do is make the guide very tight on the guide to allow for the opening of the mainspring......wrong..
The first problem, is mainsprings do not open up in the 1st inch of pre load, or even 3 inches...Even fully compressed a mainspring only expands about 0.2mm to 0.3mm maximum, but at 1-2inches of pre-load its at best hardly measurable. Its a misconception.
2) Delrin/Acetal is a material developed for rotational bearing....not sudden grab ...it has poor resistance in tension.
So, if it is tight, your mainspring grabs the guide at rest and puts the guide into tension.
This is why Delrin components are now getting broken...They needed to be sliding fits...
Its asking too much of the material...
Delrin will quite happily damp a spring even if quite a lose 0.1 mm fit, as the mainspring steel does not make any noise resonating against delrin.
A nice sliding fit is adequate..
3) When providing these kits (I am thing TBT kits and the breakages i have encountered) the kit cannot be even mildly tight because on another gun, the mainspring might be toward the smaller diameter of its tolerance margin.
So a firm fitting guide (as a design concept) can find itself being a super tight fit in another shooters mainspring...
Hence the firm fitting guide idea is not great...A concept from about 2010 they went a bit far..
I kid you not, I recently had to drive off a TBT guide from a club shooters mainspring with a mallet, and popped the rim clear off the stem as i was hitting it....madness.
4) The new trend for super tight top hats is breaking them ...The concept of very tight Top hat is a good one in the sense that the mainspring and top hat become one.....but Delrin cannot handle it...
I am into double figure breakages from known tuning kit manufactures...If insisting on super tight Top hats they must be steel....and then learn to shoot the slightly heavier cycle...Use a heavier pellet and hardly notice it.
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Basically just polished the internal parts, and dropped in a Vortek kit. It shot well like that, accurate and nice shot cycle. When I wanted to go further I sent it off to John in PA. Gained some more accuracy and even smoother shot cycle (and he sends them back with a beautifully adjusted trigger). I think of tuning as customizing the gun to your needs.
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I'm pretty much an amateur at tuning since I don't do it for other people, but what I generally do is
- degrease the tube with brake cleaner
- file/deburr the cocking slot
- replace the seal (since it's most likely nicked)
- new guide and top hat
- light moly on piston, back edge of seal, and guides
I usually start with the OEM spring for this just to see what kind of difference changing guides makes. Since I have a small lathe I'm making the guide and top hat a tight fit to the spring, and out of a plastic called "slippery UMHW". It should be less brittle than Delrin, but I probably have less than 1000 shots on the first gun I put it in. Seems to be holding up, but I may try steel in the future. Generally leave the trigger internals alone in the German guns, but have replaced a bent trigger blade in an HW.
I also feel like the initial teardown is a good way to get to know a new gun. That way if something starts acting weird in the future, I might have a better chance of figuring it out.
Jeff,
So you do not clean out the safety hole or the barrel detent?
-Y
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I’m not looking to tune my R9 in so much as to rebuild it. I am in the process of switching barrels and needed to decompress the spring. Since I was was in there I figured might as well clean and relube her. I discovered the spring had broken 2 coils down from the TopHat. Since I now am looking at a rebuild, and have been researching it, reading past threads on the topic. I have a good grasp of what needs to be done, save for one point. After cleaning/degreasing the compression chamber some folks say not to lube it. Some say light coat of moly. Iirc CDT said light film of Super Lube; for assembling not as lubing the gun.
Since there’s so many of you experienced guys on this thread I thought I could get your takes on this. What say you?🤙🏼
~ Mike
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A smear on the seal is enough...no need to lube the whole cylinder.
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On the subject of tight guides: My HW95 would twang with a slide on delrin guide/tophat and teflon piston liner. The only way I could completely eliminate spring twang is with a twist on delrin rear guide.
That wasn't the case with my Diana's, the guides didn't need to be as tight to be twang free. The new guns arrived oem twang free.
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After cleaning/degreasing the compression chamber some folks say not to lube it. Some say light coat of moly. Iirc CDT said light film of Super Lube; for assembling not as lubing the gun.
Since there’s so many of you experienced guys on this thread I thought I could get your takes on this. What say you?🤙🏼 ~ Mike
Hey Mike,
Others may disagree, but I read CDT method thoroughly before beginning my first tunes in 2012.
I have always used a 20 gauge shotgun swab and applied a thin coat of SuperLube w/PTFE in the compression chamber. Use it very sparingly as this will detonate if overdone, I have never had a problem with it even though others only use Molly.
Have had a few detonations in the past with no damage done ... :D
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On the subject of tight guides: My HW95 would twang with a slide on delrin guide/tophat and teflon piston liner. The only way I could completely eliminate spring twang is with a twist on delrin rear guide.
That wasn't the case with my Diana's, the guides didn't need to be as tight to be twang free. The new guns arrived oem twang free.
Artie,
Have experienced this too, even after a smig of heavy tar on the spring and plastic bottle around spring.
Hence, I tighten rear guide more to eliminate. Never had a broken t-h or guide.
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I have never seen a broken top hat in any of my rifles, I mainly use JM's kits and top hats OC made for me, all of them for the most part are a tight fit into the spring, I think if folks are having breakage it might be the grade of Delrin used or its being made to thin? JMO :o
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You cannot make the TH too thin because its governed by physical parameters. First it has to fit inside the spring with at least a slide fit, or its pointless. Second, the inside diameter has to fit over the latch rod with a sliding fit...thus cannot be made too thin.
The reason i am getting breakages and you are not, is because I am tuning 40 shooters guns. If they have 2 or 3 guns, and across say 10 years, i am probably into 100s of guns tuned....Its percentage incidence!
It can be a tiny flaw in the machine work, or a creeping crack from a burr on a mainspring. or the spring continually grabbing. Also Acetal is affected in the longer term by work hardening (grain structure compression)
Its a low incidence but happens. My best guess from own experience and reading forums such as this, its probably about 5 in 100 fails.
Some Delrin kit suppliers moved to 2 piece recently and Vortex switched from Delrin sleeves to steel....
There is a reason for it.....percentages!
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I'm pretty much an amateur at tuning since I don't do it for other people, but what I generally do is
- degrease the tube with brake cleaner
- file/deburr the cocking slot
- replace the seal (since it's most likely nicked)
- new guide and top hat
- light moly on piston, back edge of seal, and guides
I usually start with the OEM spring for this just to see what kind of difference changing guides makes. Since I have a small lathe I'm making the guide and top hat a tight fit to the spring, and out of a plastic called "slippery UMHW". It should be less brittle than Delrin, but I probably have less than 1000 shots on the first gun I put it in. Seems to be holding up, but I may try steel in the future. Generally leave the trigger internals alone in the German guns, but have replaced a bent trigger blade in an HW.
I also feel like the initial teardown is a good way to get to know a new gun. That way if something starts acting weird in the future, I might have a better chance of figuring it out.
Jeff,
So you do not clean out the safety hole or the barrel detent?
-Y
I'll wipe down the barrel lock if it's globbed with a bunch of grease, and then put a very light touch of Moly on the ball/wedge - but not much more than that. For an HW I'll wipe down the safety pin and the outside of the trigger housing if they're particularly oily... but haven't felt the needs to go farther than that.
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After cleaning/degreasing the compression chamber some folks say not to lube it. Some say light coat of moly. Iirc CDT said light film of Super Lube; for assembling not as lubing the gun.
Since there’s so many of you experienced guys on this thread I thought I could get your takes on this. What say you?🤙🏼 ~ Mike
Hey Mike,
Others may disagree, but I read CDT method thoroughly before beginning my first tunes in 2012.
I have always used a 20 gauge shotgun swab and applied a thin coat of SuperLube w/PTFE in the compression chamber. Use it very sparingly as this will detonate if overdone, I have never had a problem with it even though others only use Molly.
Have had a few detonations in the past with no damage done ... :D
Kirk, does that film deisel off and leave a dry compression chamber or is there always going to have a film of lube? Thanks, just trying to wrap my head around the theory.
~ Mike
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After cleaning/degreasing the compression chamber some folks say not to lube it. Some say light coat of moly. Iirc CDT said light film of Super Lube; for assembling not as lubing the gun.
Since there’s so many of you experienced guys on this thread I thought I could get your takes on this. What say you?🤙🏼 ~ Mike
Hey Mike,
Others may disagree, but I read CDT method thoroughly before beginning my first tunes in 2012.
I have always used a 20 gauge shotgun swab and applied a thin coat of SuperLube w/PTFE in the compression chamber. Use it very sparingly as this will detonate if overdone, I have never had a problem with it even though others only use Molly.
Have had a few detonations in the past with no damage done ... :D
Kirk, does that film deisel off and leave a dry compression chamber or is there always going to have a film of lube? Thanks, just trying to wrap my head around the theory.
~ Mike
No, light coating of SL stays ... excess diesels off.
Kirk
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I posted a link on basic tuning in this thread, if anybody has looked at it? it will show about the right amount of lube on the piston seal and spring, if lubes are applied correctly in the right amounts they will not Diesel or migrate where their not wanted! :o
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I posted a link on basic tuning in this thread, if anybody has looked at it? it will show about the right amount of lube on the piston seal and spring, if lubes are applied correctly in the right amounts they will not Diesel or migrate where their not wanted! :o
Hey Mark,
Saw your thread, it was a good one ;).
Aerofish, asked if anyone used SuperLube on the walls of the compression chamber in addition to putting molly on the piston and seal. CDT said to use both in a springer.
I use this method too, but was saying not to overdue the SuperLube as you'll be headed to detonation.
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I have also tried that, must have missed the SL part my bad! sorry Kirk ::)
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This is my method of lubing the comp tube. I think they call this burnishing but my terminology could be wrong. Anyways, this is how i have lubricatedthe comp tubes of some of my guns.
I take a 1/4” wooden dowel about 16” or so long and cut a slot in one end about 1 1/2” deep. Then with a strip old cotton tshirt material (10” long) i place it in the slot have way on the strip and spin the dowel so the dowel has sort of a wrapped mallet look. I put a dab on moly on it 1/2” from the end of the malleted cloth and lubricated up and down the comp tube to cover the entire tube area where the piston seal travels.
Next, i take another strip of tshirt material and double up the malleted wrap and place the oyher end in a cordless drill and slowly “buff” the inside of the comp tube in a similar manner some tuners crosshatch comp tubes with a brake hone.
Side note,...when i double up the cloth strips, i do it so the first moly’d material is exposed at the top of the wrap.
The circular motion of the dowel turned by the drill will wipe away the excess, but still leave a very thin coat of moly inside the tube. Think of it as waxing a car. Spread the turtle wax, and buff it off. Same principle. Ive had success performing this step in my tunes without any major issues such as heavy dieselling or lubricant detonation. Hth’s.
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If I were to pre lube the tube that's the way I would do it Tom, burnish the lube into the metal, good info Thomas! ;)
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What about burnishing dry moly powder in for lubing? No carrier of any sort to pose problems with dieseling, detonation or breakdown after time passes, but does it work? And what about for the spring and guides? Sometime soon I'll be replacing the spring in my Beeman R1 and I am information as to proper lubing and such.
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I burnish with M77 Honda moly. I made an applicator from a light aluminum tube and cut a piece of neoprene toolbox liner, sprayed it with 3M adhesive, and wrapped it around the end of the tube. I slip a ziplok bag over the neoprene when not in use.
I use it by dabbing a little paste here and there on the neoprene, spread the paste around with a q-tip, insert the neoprene and push back and forth while spinning the neoprene around and around for a minute or so until satisfied it's properly distributed completely onto the tube's inner wall.
Work's a treat, no muss, no fuss. I don't use Superlube, nor Krytox, nor GPL for the compression tube/spring. Real moly paste and very little of it is all I use. My applicator is completely coated with the moly btw..
I do use limited amount of the other lubes in other specific places. But not in the compression tube...
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I have never had dieseling resulting from using the Honda moly so the carrier doesn't bother me. In fact I consider the carrrier in the M77 a benefit because it does help with distribution (my M77 is thick).
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If I were to pre lube the tube that's the way I would do it Tom, burnish the lube into the metal, good info Thomas! ;)
[/quote If I were to pre lube the tube that's the way I would do it Tom, burnish the lube into the metal, good info Thomas! ;)
Thanks Mark. And i have and used honda moly too and never had any probs. I do like to add a dab of jm clear tar or eurogrease on the alreadied molyd pistons points of contact to the id of the comp tube. Like Ive said, i like my girls hot wet and juicy 😆🤪😁😉. Ok wet and juicy,...hot is an added benefit😉
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Thanks for all the input guys. I like the suggestions on burnishing the Comp tube. Ok my gun has been shot for a pretty good number of years. It’s an old style cocking shoe R9 from about 2011. So would I be correct to assume my compression tube is already pretty well burnished?
CDT recommends just a film of Super Lube ptfe at the point just above the action and the lower point of the compression chamber. It’s just to ease the assembly so as to not damage the new seal.
I think I have a pretty firm idea on the theory. Thanks again!
~ Mike
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No disrespect to Bob Werner RIP but Superlube is mostly silicone and truly not the first choice for lubing an air rifle's compression tube. Moly paste however, is a good choice and the one selected by many of the professional tuners who occasionally post in the forum.
Your tube may be polished from use and polishing could be considered "burnishing". When I say "burnishing" I am referring to rubbing a substance into the grain of the metal. Could be grease, oil, etc... and as in my suggestion, moly paste.
Moly is a substance that can fairly easily be removed later if need be. Silicone not so much and ptfe... forget about it.
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Superlube is not a metal to metal lubricant, if you check the manufacturers intention for their product, it details its use for plastic gears in the food industry, and specifically its clean breakdown over time so that it does not gum or fowl up delicate mechanisms.
I detailed what to use earlier in the post. A propriety Moly, just a hint at the rear bearing point of the piston...maybe a slight meniscus smear around the seal and wipe across the outside of the mainspring....
You could get all technical on me and suggest something more, but fact remains, its none dieseling, does not break down and it is highly unlikely you will ever be able to tell the difference with anything more.
The big one for me is consistency of the product. Tried and tested since the 80s....
Further, I am suspicious of special mixes of Moly, such as TBT etc. Here, someone has simply added an extra ingredient as a marketing ploy that is not really needed and likely to separate out.
Stick with a decent automotive moly ...a small tube, or tiny tub will last decades.
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Richard, that's kind of my findings using any type of PTFE lubes, if I were to use it it would only be on trigger sears or the barrel block shims and fork area, I would not use it in the compression tube or spring assembly, I also think burnishing the area where the piston seal runs should only be done after factory bluing inside that area has rubbed away from use or done from Sunnen or other type honing, JMO ;D
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Good info Steve, I have read some of that usage on labeling on a tube of Super Lube, ;)
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No disrespect to Bob Werner RIP but Superlube is mostly silicone and truly not the first choice for lubing an air rifle's compression tube. Moly paste however, is a good choice and the one selected by many of the professional tuners who occasionally post in the forum.
You know Artie,
I don't know if SuperLube with PTFE is the best lube today, used in the compression chamber of a Springer, but it's certainly still a very good one. Keep in mind, CDT is one of the Grand Poohbah's of airgun tuning dating back to the 1980's/1990's/2000's - IIRC he taught fellow GTA Co-Fouder, Gene Curtis how to tune airguns.
Remember, spring airguns haven't changed much in mechanical design for the last 100 years as far as the piston compressing air to propel the pellet. Hence, methodology produced by CDT from 2012 can almost be carved in stone.
Sure, there maybe (marginally) better lubes on the market today, but keep in mind were talking of improving 100 year old mechanical technology. Hence, the difference while "there", is likely very marginal and probably equally explained in marketing a more expensive product.
Many more critical factors to focus on during a tune.
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I realized when I posted my recommendation for moly paste over Superlube and added the comment about "better choices" and CDT I may be stirring up the pot. Perhaps I should clarify. I will use a quote from CDT to illustrate (circa 2012):
"The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes. 8) The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must. ;) SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly. :( It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier."
Another quote from Bob:
"When mounting the seal on the piston, I would use silicone grease although you could use the SuperLube. Just remove the excess. I would apply a thin application on the back of and on the cone part of the seal then install it on the piston. Now grasp the seal and turn it back and forth on the piston several times so that the seal sets firmly and perfectly centered. 8)
You can use either the silicone grease or Moly on the outer edge of the seal when installing the piston in the gun. I would normally use the Moly unless it was not a parachute type seal.
The piston. Whatever you do, do not polish the piston. :o I chuckle to myself every time someone writes about how they polished the piston. Self defeating. In fact, if it has an extremely smooth or polished type surface you may want to rough it up just a little although that can be hard to do on some pistons because they are very hard steel. >:( Much easier to do if you have a lathe. The logic here is that the Moly will adhere to the rougher surface and will hold the Moly better and it will not fly off so readily. ;)
Look at the piston and see if there is any shiny surfaces where the piston may have been rubbing the chamber wall. This may be visible if the gun has some mileage on it. If so, scuff it just a little if you can and apply a light film of Molly here. You will usually see this on the upper opposite side of the cocking slot. 8)
Lubing the piston. The piston itself should have a coat of Molly from the back of the seated seal to about one inch behind it around the piston. Do the same with the rear of the piston. This applied lube is what is going to provide the lube for your seal and provide the fuel for the compression chamber for the life of the tune. :o 8) It should be covered well but not real heavy. Lube the cocking slot of the piston where the cocking foot/shoe rides.
Guess I've made enough noise for one day.
CDT"
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Really not sure Artie...
For the record, I am materials fellow, engaged with testing of materials unrelated to guns, but same rules apply. Across the 20 years in the role I learnt many things which proved to the good when developing a tuning formula for guns...
My main concern with what you suggest in creating a rough surface for lube, is that while this works for the sake of lubrication, it nonetheless derails the rules for mating parts in reg of low coef of friction. Polished surfaces of any mating parts can be up to 50 percent more efficient at static and increase beyond that at velocity, not to mention the wear rate increasing. Also most materials will take a meniscus into their surface grain structure, even at high polish. Often referred to as burnishing. Infact 2 hardened steel surfaces which are burnished can have one of the lowest known coeffs of friction throughout the increase of velocity. This is why its difficult to beat a hardened steel top hat and guide in terms of speed for the gun.
Other notes...
Its interesting if we consider surface adhesion between mating parts, that only one known material never adheres to another (of the same material) at the molecular level. This is that of 2 hardened steels...at least until the hardness of one, or both breaks down and the surfaces are highly polished/ ground/ lapped.....Think highly advanced racing engines. All other materials (when 2 of the same run against each other) will have adhesion trying to occur at their surface layers and some of the worst of these will begin to gall.
Considering this, a big mistake is the recent trend of putting 2 delrins together, I.E Delrin thrust washer on delrin guide, or top hat...
2 materials the same rubbing on each other...
When this occurs, they almost cancel out any of the low friction benefit of the material due to adhesion.
This applies to all materials when 2 of the same contacting each other.....A very bad engineering principal and why i do not advocate the TBT kits....
When i tested this kit scientifically, all i got was the damping effect plastics do to a mainspring and then everyone thinking the kit is great. There is in reality almost zero reduction in torque removal ...its just hard for you to all measure it.
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I realized when I posted my recommendation for moly paste over Superlube and added the comment about "better choices" and CDT I may be stirring up the pot. Perhaps I should clarify. I will use a quote from CDT to illustrate (circa 2012):
"The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes. 8) The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must. ;) SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly. :( It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier."
Yeah Artie,
I use molly on the piston seal and piston (1" front & back) as described by CDT - SuperLube w/PTFE on inside of receiver and compression chamber in initial set-up. Jim Macarri also recommends "molly only" on his piston seals.
Don't worry - No pot stirring, no issues 8)
That's
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I agree with what you posted Steve. I was quoting CDT from a 9 year old GTA post.
Roughing a polished surface to hold moly in a sliding metal to metal componet seems counterproductive to me. Piston buttons for example, are finished smooth, not rough. A good moly paste will burnish into polished metal. We may not see it with our eyes but it is there.
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Everybody has what works for them! if all is done correctly and we get the results we want? then their is no wrong doing! different strokes for different folks ;D
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Everybody has what works for them! if all is done correctly and we get the results we want? then their is no wrong doing! different strokes for different folks ;D
So true again brother Mark!
I’ll give my lube formula because I am an expert. Just ask me and I’ll tell ya so! Ha ha
I found moly seems to dry out over time. I use JM moly. So what I haVe done to remedy this is add JM clear tar to the moly. I have also used the Vortek lube on the piston seal with good success. Back to my “home brew” lube.
I will massage a light coat of moly over all the parts where I want then and then I’ll do the same with the clear tar over the moly and massage it in to mix with the moly. I’m talking thin coatings over the areas. I will leave just a bit more(still thin coat but more than the rest of the parts) moly and clear tar mixed on the seal and back towards the front of the piston where the seal is secured. I do not rub lubes in the compression tube anymore. I always seemed to get dieseling shots for the first couple shots when I did. That’s partly why I leave a little more on the seal and front of the piston so they can migrate some and hopefully help lube the receiver walls as it gets shot. That’s my theory anyway. Remember I’m an expert! 👊🏼🤪
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Come on Brett, I thought I was THE PNW lube expert ??? :D?
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Come on Brett, I thought I was THE PNW lube expert ??? :D?
We should form a union and WE can be The PNW Lube Expert Team! Now we just need to come up with a logo...
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Infact 2 hardened steel surfaces which are burnished can have one of the lowest known coeffs of friction throughout the increase of velocity. This is why its difficult to beat a hardened steel top hat and guide in terms of speed for the gun.
Other notes...
Its interesting if we consider surface adhesion between mating parts, that only one known material never adheres to another (of the same material) at the molecular level. This is that of 2 hardened steels...at least until the hardness of one, or both breaks down and the surfaces are highly polished/ ground/ lapped.....Think highly advanced racing engines. All other materials (when 2 of the same run against each other) will have adhesion trying to occur at their surface layers and some of the worst of these will begin to gall.
Well this is interesting to me. Does the theory consider the types of hardened steel? That is to say, do the two steels need to be of the same metallurgy or is it more simply a question of hardness? Not being an engineer, this is rather fascinating. Knowing that some dissimilar metals can have galvanic corrosion issues makes t even more interesting. I suppose that only happens if water is introduced though. Interesting none the less.
Clarky, I’d like to know more about the two hardened metals and if the type of metal compounds matter much.
Also, if lubricity is the cure, does moly between two similar materials not fix the adhesion/galling issue of the two parts?
Respectfully,
Higgs
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2 harden steels of same type...i.e hardened silver steel guide with hardened silver steel thrust ring, will have the lowest coeff under load and velocity compared to say lower coef plastics against each other. It is because there is no adhesion of the molecular structure to each other.....Adding a lube will improve this further...
Hardened steel guides and top hats would be the best ever but too costly for most off the shelf kit providers.
Stainless steel isnt much good, because it yields its softer chromium when in a bearing situation, and will begin to gall against each other ...hence never used as a bearing unless in a corrosion resistant situation...
Cast Iron on the other hand, yields self lubricating carbon and its porosity allows flow of carbon between the mating faces, exceeding that of even hardened steel but is quite brittle unless in a revolving bearing situation...Not really tough enough for our guides and top hats when drilled hollow for latch rods etc...
Delrin run on delrin shows evidence of pick up migration very quickly and the two put together can cancel out their low friction characteristic. Not bad under moderate load with steel....but never 2 together like the TBT kit.
Steve Pope recognised this, putting a delrin guide with a steel thrust washer....a better engineer.
Trouble is mention it on bbs or Airgun forum and they all come out in support to blow smoke up titbums backside...
He is in league with the moderation and you will get kicked off for such comments but no learning takes place....no advancement so i share my posts elsewhere. Could careless if anyone wants to ignore it. My income stream is not from tuning!
The kit is fine as a cheap damper, but needs to be recognised as just that. There is a better way.
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2 harden steels of same type...i.e hardened silver steel guide with hardened silver steel thrust ring, will have the lowest coeff under load and velocity compared to say lower coef plastics against each other. It is because there is no adhesion of the molecular structure to each other.....Adding a lube will improve this further...
Hardened steel guides and top hats would be the best ever but too costly for most off the shelf kit providers.
Stainless steel isnt much good, because it yields its softer chromium when in a bearing situation, and will begin to gall against each other ...hence never used as a bearing unless in a corrosion resistant situation...
Cast Iron on the other hand, yields self lubricating carbon and its porosity allows flow of carbon between the mating faces, exceeding that of even hardened steel but is quite brittle unless in a revolving bearing situation...Not really tough enough for our guides and top hats when drilled hollow for latch rods etc...
Delrin run on delrin shows evidence of pick up migration very quickly and the two put together can cancel out their low friction characteristic. Not bad under moderate load with steel....but never 2 together like the TBT kit.
Steve Pope recognised this, putting a delrin guide with a steel thrust washer....a better engineer.
Trouble is mention it on bbs or Airgun forum and they all come out in support to blow smoke up titbums backside...
He is in league with the moderation and you will get kicked off for such comments but no learning takes place....no advancement so i share my posts elsewhere. Could careless if anyone wants to ignore it. My income stream is not from tuning!
The kit is fine as a cheap damper, but needs to be recognised as just that. There is a better way.
Oohhhh, molecular structure!
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What is being referred to as "silver steel" here? And some grades of stainless steel are commonly used as bearings, although they might not be available as pieces easily made into washers and spring guide tubes.
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Silver Steel is simply a trade name of high carbon steel which is available to you off the shelf. RS components is an easy find supplier. A length of 25mm x 30mm (1” x 1ft) is ideal for guides. You then machine, heat it up and quench in oil for good enough hardness for our purpose.
Stainless Steel is almost always used as a casing for encapsulating roller bearings, not the actual bush or running bearing on its own, but is sometimes used where corrosion resistance is required, but is often problematic, unless used against phosphor bronze.
Delrin/ Acetal is a great material....i have used it often but it needs using correctly. What can be a perfect low friction material can be cancelled out to very poor if running against the same material.
Its not as simple as people think.
Delrin loaded with PTFE (Delrin A/F) can be a leading choice for bench mounted instrumentation, with friction so low that it is barely detectable, compared to the shaft actually running in free air!...but I used a piece in a HW45 one time and it broke first shot. The structure is not as well bonded together as more pure polymers and thus no good for the slam of mainsprings.
At this point, it should be noted that this could all be viewed as over thinking the situation, and anyone can simply ram a delrin component up a mainspring to damp it....no problems with that.
My posts are merely for the tuner who wants to take it on further and experiment, but with delrin on delrin you are not getting low friction. Its a mistake.
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That is some really good information Steve. If I ever break into another B18 platform I might just try the steel guide and top hat.
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Some recent posts(both my own and others) have got me curious, how do you like to tune your German springers? Do you run a bought kit like a vortek, tin bum or ARH? Do you do something custom with different springs, seals and guides?
I'd like to hear your methods and preferences, what your goal is for each tune(power, shootability, etc) and your best description of the shot cycle. The performance details(what pellet, velocity, accuracy) would be excellent to hear.
I think it would be cool to just hear what everyone's own preferred methods are without too much debate, just for some good information and ideas!
I personally don't like my R9 or HW95 lubed with diesel prone factory lubes, twang, plus a boxed 7.9 grain CPL velocity of more than about 850fps so every new HW springer I've bought over the last decade or so was taken apart and reassembled to address the above preferences. Here is the prep work done on the HW95 I bought a few years ago..............
1st...
Chrony the gun straight from the box. The last HW springer I bought was a .177 HW95 and the "outta tha box" velocity was 880fps.
2nd.......
Disassemble the gun to prepare for stripping of all factory lube.......
(https://i.imgur.com/6NUlm1P.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/GC4Lj5s.jpg)
What happens with HW factory lube after a while. Along with the "tendency to diesel" the thickening of the lube with age is why I prefer Krytox non-petroleum base grease......
(https://i.imgur.com/r2Zaw3y.png)
3rd......
Test the receiver for constrictions and hone if necessary with a home mage hone. This isn't really necessary for a later design factory piston seal, I prefer to replace the factory seal with a home turned aluminum oring sealed piston cap. The consistency of the receiver ID is more critical with the size 019 orings I use.......
(https://i.imgur.com/sImpGWk.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/GyTMWD7.jpg)
4th.......
Replace the factory spring with an ARH E3650 spring fitted with a home turned Delrin fitted guide and top hat, lubed with Krytox grease........
(https://i.imgur.com/GXZl4Hh.jpg)
5th.......
Lube the receiver sliding parts with Krytox GPL205 (GPL105/6 for locking lever rivet) and reassemble.......
(https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/EJSxLJ4.jpg)
6th......Check the velocity and adjust by varying the spring preload using Delrin washers and verify that the shot cycle is "twang/vibrationless"...........
(https://i.imgur.com/veWEtV3.jpg)
7th good to go till the spring breaks (or sags). LOL, the HW95 in this pic was bought 7 years ago and the R9 a couple decades ago when living in West Virginia...........
(https://i.imgur.com/a7175Mk.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Ng6Q1mZ.jpg)
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Some recent posts(both my own and others) have got me curious, how do you like to tune your German springers? Do you run a bought kit like a vortek, tin bum or ARH? Do you do something custom with different springs, seals and guides?
I'd like to hear your methods and preferences, what your goal is for each tune(power, shootability, etc) and your best description of the shot cycle. The performance details(what pellet, velocity, accuracy) would be excellent to hear.
I think it would be cool to just hear what everyone's own preferred methods are without too much debate, just for some good information and ideas!
the HW95 in this pic was bought 7 years ago and the R9 a couple decades ago when living in West Virginia...........
(https://i.imgur.com/a7175Mk.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Ng6Q1mZ.jpg)
Wow Ed! It’s been that long since you bought the 95? I bought one just before that $299 deal came out. When it did I really debated on getting another one at that price. I did end up getting it at the $299. Now I enjoy my R9 .22 bought in 2007 and 2 HW95s in .177. One 95 is scoped and the other wears a peep 👀. It’s hard to think that I have had those 95s for 7 years!
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I also bought my HW95 from the AOA $299+shipping deal and had to wait several weeks for the shipment to arrive. I initially bought the HW95 to have spare parts for the R9, however I liked the HW95 better so it's now the "go to" springer for me and the R9 is the back-up. Here are a couple pics of the older R9 receiver ID vs the newer HW95...........
(https://i.imgur.com/xFNkOry.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/wlKDrlE.jpg)
The main difference between the two is the leade of the two .177 bores. The R9 has a looser leade that's perfect for boxed Crosman Premiers with their large heads whereas the HW95 has a tighter leade. I made up a pellet head reducer/skirt expanger that sizes pellet heads to 4.50mm. This pellet head size is accurate in both springers yet allows loading into the HW95 leade without have a "sore loading finger session". Here is the pellet head engraving of both the HW95 and R9 after pushing through new CPLs.............
(https://i.imgur.com/wKEpOM2.jpg)
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Hey NCED,
What are the top 3 or 5 reasons that You use only Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes? Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals?
- We appreciate your findings after years of practical research ;)
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Hey NCED,
What are the top 3 or 5 reasons that You use only Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes? Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals?
- We appreciate your findings after years of practical research ;)
"Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes?"
1. Petroleum based lubes will diesel, Krytox doesn't. Traditional airgun lubes like molly paste and "tar" also requires very careful application to minimize dieseling. Non-dieseling Krytox is a much more forgiving lube.
2. Petroleum based lubes will outgas and dry out over time becomming "more goopy"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/Q2gK841.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/r2Zaw3y.png)
3. Krytox GPL205 is white colored instead of "staining black" (a minor issue).
"Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals? "
Nope, not dieseling and maintaining its consistency over time had more to do with using Krytox than any other feature. A "rubber" oring is still similar to a "rubber" piston seal, however the oring has a much less "friction surface" than an old design HW seal with the thin parachute edge. The newer HW piston seal has a similar "friction surface" to an oring, however the aluminum oring sealed piston cap places metal directly behing the hot high velocity air at the transfer port that erodes "rubber" piston seals...........
(https://i.imgur.com/SJBTo92.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/pXwwwTx.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/kfIIHga.jpg)
One thing I've noticed about the later design factory HW piston seals in a couple HW springers I worked was "face cracking" which I personally never experienced when I tested the factory seals...........
(https://i.imgur.com/R1S6sDD.jpg)
Here is the later design properly fitting HW factory piston seal after testing in my HW95 showing no face cracking.......
(https://i.imgur.com/DCnUGNM.jpg)
I did notice that the factory HW piston seal diameter can vary quite a bit. I tuned a HW95 for a friend a few years ago and noticed that the brand new seal was a rather loose fit in the receiver. I got another brand new HW piston seal from my parts bin and it fit perfectly. Perhaps the pics of cracked HW piston seals was due to a "loose fitter" from the factory leading to "piston slamming" but I don't know the actual cause...........
(https://i.imgur.com/RmBgjqS.jpg)
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Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?
-Yogi
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Thanks NCED ;),
To summerize what you said:
1) Krytox allows you to simply tuning by using 1 Lube to replace Molly, SuperLube, Heavy & Clear Tar products.
2) Krytox is Not temperature sensitive where as Heavier Tars can affect POI because of viscosity changes.
3) Petroleum products are prone to dieseling vs. Krytox.
4) Petroleum products are prone to drying out over time and loosing their effectiveness vs. Krytox.
If all the above are true, it seems new DIY'ers would be wise to use Krytox only as it costs about the same as all the above mentioned lubes (combined) without their downside.
I myself, may try Krytox in the future, but currently have about 5 years of the previously mentioned petroleum products in inventory.
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Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?
-Yogi
Well, it all comes back to what should work best on paper and what actually does in reality. However, if people studied the paper better, they would see that Phosphor Bronze is not quite the right choice.
PB is material intended for a rotating spindle of steel. Design requirements requiring a nice running fit, to exacting tolerances but not something rubbing up and down over its surface like a mainspring that is tight fitting. It will will tear up the surface and leave deposits of PB after time, but is not an outright bad choice and otherwise gives superb low friction characteristics with steel. For all the mild dust meniscus it will leave down inside a piston, it will still outlast Delrin if you want to run tight.
Brass, being slightly less efficient in the friction stakes is better able to stand upto a tight mainspring, but IMO
Hardened steel beats all for this application.
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Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?
-Yogi
I personally don't like metal guides or top hats. Metal guides require a VERY tight fit in the spring to kill twang/vibration (tighter than Delrin) and bronze guides will get worn by the steel spring when the fit is very tight in the spring. The only purpose for a top hat in my situation is to center the spring end in the piston so I don't want the extra mass added to the piston with steel or bronze/brass. Now if I were shooting heavy 10.5 grain .177 pellets the extra mass added to the piston (https://i.imgur.com/GXZl4Hh.jpg)
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Nice to see you running steel rings on the Delrin Ed...
Agreeing with you regarding the guide, but in regard the Top Hat, it dont need to be massive and a good proportion of its bearing hole on the latch rod can be relieved out to leave just 2, or 3mm contacting the rod, reducing the weight....same with the rim.
No longer than 10mm and bored out this way, it will only weigh a few grams....Done like this, I never really got the whole discussion regarding weight. I have never really noticed the difference.
In hardened steel can go as tight as you like and will last forever.
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I myself being old school on how I do things, I will say I have not used Krytox, but I know how to apply JM's lubes and have never had any issues with them, but I will say I purchased a AA Pro Elite about 10yrs ago that had sat in a guy's gun safe for 5yrs before I purchased it, it had been lubed with some type of moly paste, when I got the gun I noticed it didn't sound normal, I took it apart to find all the moly had dried up and was crusty!!!! I personally have not had this happen to my rifles I have lubed but not to say it can't happen, but I will personally keep using my JM lubes until they cause an issue! ;D
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I myself being old school on how I do things, I will say I have not used Krytox, but I know how to apply JM's lubes and have never had any issues with them, but I will say I purchased a AA Pro Elite about 10yrs ago that had sat in a guy's gun safe for 5yrs before I purchased it, it had been lubed with some type of moly paste, when I got the gun I noticed it didn't sound normal, I took it apart to find all the moly had dried up and was crusty!!!! I personally have not had this happen to my rifles I have lubed but not to say it can't happen, but I will personally keep using my JM lubes until they cause an issue! ;D
Strange things do happen on occasion. How about this "lube job" on a R9 that I worked a while back. The lube , whatever it was, still had what I assume was "normal consistency" but it had obviously migrated in front of the piston seal due to excess application (I assume)..........
(https://i.imgur.com/R1S6sDD.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/gRq0z07.jpg)
I don't know if the cracked face of the piston seal was due to "excessive dieseling", poor fitting in the receiver (it was a bit loose), or a bad seal composition.
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Things I've noticed with my current tune:
- Straight Molly on trigger sears tends to dry out; I really have no idea how this hurts, but it's moist in the first place and then goes dry - so probably not ideal. CDT recommended using Gene Sunday's Mystery Oil on triggers. I have a batch of this somewhere GSMO = a mixture of Molly + Non-Detergent HD30 oil - IIRC.
- Piston seal Molly has never dried, I attribute this to the SuperLube w/PTFE in the compression chamber, but I don't really know for sure?
- Heavy Dieseling/Detonation after a tune is very short lived, as many times as I've opened up my guns ... never noticed a problem with any internals. The worst part of HD/D is cleaning the barrel to remove the black residue hindering accuracy. 10/15 shots and its over :D.
- Because I live in a relatively moderate climate, never noticed significant POI changes due to tar; or could have misread this as Operator Error. I don't hunt or shoot Field Target ... maybe out-of-sight & out-of-mind ::).
- Never had a problem using Delrin or Nylon for Spring Guides of Top-Hats. I try to make them as robust as I can, but still fit. I've probably made spring guides very tight before, but never had a problem with breakage. The biggest downside (I've seen) to a very tight spring guide is reduced velocity as this inhibits spring travel.
I believe manufactures who are having problems with breakage are using cheaper materials or reducing part thickness to reduce costs.
- Steel top-hat give you a slightly faster shot cycle because of weight and reduced friction.
Not trying to "Stir The Pot" as this is what I've seen in my short 8 years of tuning 8)
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I myself do not have migration issues with moly on the piston seal as u have shown ED, that's probably because I have learned over the yrs how to apply it correctly, not under minding u at all just my experience with how much is to much, also seal fit or a out of round compression tube can cause what u are showing, I would agree Kirk trigger sears are best left to oils not paste, like moly or SL, IMO trigger sears are best left at a hi polish mirror state with no lube at all! due to polishing compound being burnished into the metal! ;D
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I myself do not have migration issues with moly on the piston seal as u have shown ED, that's probably because I have learned over the yrs how to apply it correctly, not under minding u at all just my experience with how much is to much, also seal fit or a out of round compression tube can cause what u are showing, I would agree Kirk trigger sears are best left to oils not paste, like moly or SL, IMO trigger sears are best left at a hi polish mirror state with no lube at all! due to polishing compound being burnished into the metal! ;D
LOL.....I wasn't clear, the lube job shown in the pics wasn't done by me, it was done by the previous owner of the gun of his "tuner". Anywhoo.....Krytox is much more forgiving than molly bearing petroleum based lubes since Krytox doesn't diesel and it doesn't outgas nearly as much, if at all.
When I tested a new design HW piston seal. No combustion products on the seal at all.......
(https://i.imgur.com/DCnUGNM.jpg)
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Yeah Ed,
If I were starting new - I'd probably use Krytox products exclusively.
But I'm not ... All my Spring guns are tuned .... trying to save my pennies after purchasing a RAW HM1000x & Element Helix scope :D.
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I’d like to try the Krytox but I’m too lazy to take all my springers apart and do it all over again. Ha ha ha!!! It sounds like good stuff.
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Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
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Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
Look no further than Amazon ... It's very expensive.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=krytox&crid=19EGPW2037DEI&sprefix=Krytox%2Caps%2C244&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_6 (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=krytox&crid=19EGPW2037DEI&sprefix=Krytox%2Caps%2C244&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_6)
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Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
I buy the 2 oz tubes (8oz tubes when I was doing tuning for others) but the 1/2oz will lube a couple guns. To test out the "non-dieseling claims" I first bought a 1/2oz tube and after slathering my R9 internals deliberately getting some on the face of the piston seal I had this much left over. Easily enough to do a proper lube job on the HW95.........
(https://i.imgur.com/XCgzCBF.jpg)
One thing to remember is that Krytox doesn't mix well with "dinosaur grease" so it's recommended to strip the petro grease from parts and dry before lubing with Krytox. With use the Krytox in such a mix will be unaffected after the "dinosaur grease" in the mix fails which will degrade the mix. While springer internals aren't "high temp high speed bearings" I still sriip the internals with non-chlorinated aerosol brake cleaner and dry the cleaned parts before lubing. I personally prefer the "Plain Jane" Krytox GPL205 vs the GPL225 which contains a wear and corrosion inhibitor........
(https://i.imgur.com/hiAGIrb.png)(https://i.imgur.com/fZlsPtq.png)
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One last little trick i use when tuning with the old fashioned JM lubes is applying tar to the mainspring. I’ve seen springs covered with moly, springs tht have apparently been oiled, and springs ridiculously coated with black tar. I use black tar on my springs. I was once told to apply black tar with my index finger, and apply enough to make it stringy between the coils. In my humble opinion, that seems a bit too much. So this is my method. Your mileage may very. Anywoo,.....i put on a pair of nitrile gloves, and out a peanut sized dab of tar on one hand and carefully spread the tar by rubbing my hands together much like washing the palms of your hands with soap. Then i pick up the spring and simply coat the spring with the tarred up gloves to the point that it is evenly spread and more of a thin coating on the coils and in between the coils. No stinging of tar. Just enough to make the spring look powder coated or painted i suppose. I end up wasting more tar on the gloves, but tar isnt that expensive, so I can live with the loss. Then i pull the gloves off and throw in the trash. Alot less messy too. Often times i use nitrile gloves when reinstalling the spring in the action just to avoid getting my hands dirty.
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One last little trick i use when tuning with the old fashioned JM lubes is applying tar to the mainspring. I’ve seen springs covered with moly, springs tht have apparently been oiled, and springs ridiculously coated with black tar. I use black tar on my springs. I was once told to apply black tar with my index finger, and apply enough to make it stringy between the coils. In my humble opinion, that seems a bit too much. So this is my method. Your mileage may very. Anywoo,.....i put on a pair of nitrile gloves, and out a peanut sized dab of tar on one hand and carefully spread the tar by rubbing my hands together much like washing the palms of your hands with soap. Then i pick up the spring and simply coat the spring with the tarred up gloves to the point that it is evenly spread and more of a thin coating on the coils and in between the coils. No stinging of tar. Just enough to make the spring look powder coated or painted i suppose. I end up wasting more tar on the gloves, but tar isnt that expensive, so I can live with the loss. Then i pull the gloves off and throw in the trash. Alot less messy too. Often times i use nitrile gloves when reinstalling the spring in the action just to avoid getting my hands dirty.
Years ago when living in West Virginia and attending a Dominion airgun club field target match (Dominion closed years ago because the range fees didn't cover the liability insurance cost) I use traditional JM lubes and applied the "Tar" on the R9 spring as you explained and a light film of molly paste elsewhere. The match sight in was done during snow flurries (early spring match), however the temps rose to the mid 50s and both my brother and I started missing easy shots. Between shooting on the lanes we shot at bare leaves on the ground and found that we both had a 1" poi shift at only 20 yards. When the "dust settled" we found that applying "Tar" as described made the guns "temperature sensitive" where the poi would shift with a 25 degree change during the shooting session. A fellow shooter we were squadded with asked how we lubed our R9s and then suggested the stripping of "heavy tar" from the spring and guide, relube with only a thin coat of molly paste, then try again. That simple change helped greatly minimizing temperature related poi shifting so "tar' wasn't used again. Here is a pic of that container of "tar" after years of storing sealed with the lid. The tar did outgas with storage to the point that it was thick enough to support a socket head cap screw on the rim that only had a couple "half threads" embedded..........
(https://i.imgur.com/Q2gK841.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/49r76NW.jpg)
Anywhoo, over a decade ago I nixed all petroleum based lubes for my HW springers replacing them with non-dieseling lubes. The Krytox lube I use is too thin to kill twang/vibration so tight fitting guide lubed with Krytox GPL205 is used. Not only is temperature induced poi shifting minimized, there is also the benefit that it only takes a couple shots to stabilize the poi instead of a dozen or so shots required when I was using "tar & paste".
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Tar on mainsprings is passe...everyone stopped using it, after its otherwise great damping effect starting slowing speed too much. As pointed out, while its operating temp is safe in regard of detonation, it still has the ability to thicken/thin out dependent on the ambient temp which will impact POI.
Vmach sprays on a fine film of gearbox grease, as does SFS. With the finest of coating it is not impacted by the temperature issue so much, but I suspect it is still a slight issue.
However, i have a new one for you which I tested for Tony Leach under lab conditions.
Its Napier shotgun slide grease. Proven to not flash over, it is a white soap free (none drying) Lithium which does not thicken, or thin out due to temp. Just a smear over the mainspring and bearing point.
I am going to test some Krytox soon....pricey stuff if you have a few guns to maintain, and a liking to go inside routinely, but it does look good.
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I have used ARH moly in all of my spring guns except my hw97k, where I used Krytox instead. After 10,000 shots or more, no question that the hw97k is a bit less temperature sensitive and more consistent. Is that due to the Krytox or just the characteristics of my particular hw97k? I have no clue.
What is clear, however, is that applying the Krytox takes more time because all of the factory lubes need to be completely removed first.
So far, the difference is not enough to get me energized to remove all of the dino lubes from my other springers and replace with Krytox.
R
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Yeah that is the stumbling block with Krytox. Guns must be cleaned out to a parts washing level of cleanliness.
Thats a lot of work, over and above a quick clean out with kitchen towel.
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If one had a whole bunch of guns to do the Krytox could be expensive, and parts cleaning laborious, but for someone like me who just wants to do one it wouldn't be too much of a deal.
Short story af what I'm after: My experience with spring piston guns is mostly from years past. I had in order a Webley Vulcan, a Beeman R10, a Beeman R1 and a Beeman RX. I had tried Beeman Mainspring Dampening Compound (clear silicone based paste), Beeman Spring Gel (dark pink stinky stuff), Beeman Laser Lube (goldish colored copper stuff), and the ubiquitous moly paste. The moly paste was the most foolproof stuff, applied sparingly caused no dieseling problems. The mainspring dampening compound killed power, the spring gel would sling off and detonate violently, the Laser Lube was so-so, I probably used too much of it causing continual dieseling problems. The Laser Lube came in the Laserization Kit with it's nickel plated parts. The last gun was the RX, and I never disassembled that one because of the gas ram. I tired of air rifles and traded it off on a CZ 452 American 22. In 2009 got the Evanix PCP, and a few years ago found an excellent shape Beeman R1 .177. It's now needing a new spring and I'm gathering information on what I want to do with it. Same options others pore over, Vortex kit, ARH kit, or just replace the spring and relube with some proper grease. Spring "buzz" never bothered me much, I just want consistent velocity with good shootability. Something like 800-825 fps with the 10.34 gr Barracudas, around 14-15 ft lbs. muzzle energy.
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Tar on mainsprings is passe...everyone stopped using it, after its otherwise great damping effect starting slowing speed too much. As pointed out, while its operating temp is safe in regard of detonation, it still has the ability to thicken/thin out dependent on the ambient temp which will impact POI.
Vmach sprays on a fine film of gearbox grease, as does SFS. With the finest of coating it is not impacted by the temperature issue so much, but I suspect it is still a slight issue.
However, i have a new one for you which I tested for Tony Leach under lab conditions.
Its Napier shotgun slide grease. Proven to not flash over, it is a white soap free (none drying) Lithium which does not thicken, or thin out due to temp. Just a smear over the mainspring and bearing point.
I am going to test some Krytox soon....pricey stuff if you have a few guns to maintain, and a liking to go inside routinely, but it does look good.
Steve;
Upon your recommendation, I tested the Napier shotgun slide grease, and it does not hold a candle to Ultimox. Especially in the high force-friction areas so common in airguns.
It does not diesel at relatively slow rail speed/low pressure, but at high rail speeds/high pressures/temps (like Full Power ORing pistons develop), it does create some "fumes".
I have found Krytox to be somewhat hygroscopic over time, Ultimox solves most of the problems.
When you take into account the time it takes to break a gun apart and re-do something, the cost of Ultimox is cheap in comparison.
Now, if people use Krytox and perform "routine" maintenance, themselves, it will work for them.
HTH, Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Good answer Rob, a Man with the 2 to compare! ;D
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Hector, I am kind of glad you found the Krytox better...it might push me on to bother trying it now...
Still think the Napier is worth considering. I know that O ring seals can really push the margin for dieseling, so that is quite an acid test you gave it. I never experienced any in with Leather, or Synthetic parachute seals.
Its white, nice and clean just plain nice to use....and works beautifully on cocking slot slides....its intended use and as such, a one lube for all the bits....so i gave it an 8 out of 10 versus a 7 out of 10 for moly in my experiments..
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Hector, I am kind of glad you found the Krytox better...it might push me on to bother trying it now...
Still think the Napier is worth considering. I know that O ring seals can really push the margin for dieseling, so that is quite an acid test you gave it. I never experienced any in with Leather, or Synthetic parachute seals.
Its white, nice and clean just plain nice to use....and works beautifully on cocking slot slides....its intended use and as such, a one lube for all the bits....so i gave it an 8 out of 10 versus a 7 out of 10 for moly in my experiments..
In that, you are quite right, but the gunsmith needs to polish the slots and the linkages/arms/shoes very well for it to work.
IF the gunsmith takes the trouble to do it, then yes, it works marvelously.
Thanks for the recommendation, it is one more of the "fine" points in a good tune.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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So what is the best solvent to use to remove the petroleum bases greases?
Acetone, brake cleaner, Dry Ice?
Do you need to take the trigger apart and clean each piece or will a good soak do? Same with the barrel latch?
-Y
PS I'm trying to get motivated. ;D
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I have 4 or 5 rifles that are 100% ultimox lubricated. If I choose to use Ultimox in a rifle, I will use it exclusively as not to mix petro lubes at all with the PTFE lube. I find it easier to keep track of what a particular gun needs in the way of lubrication maintenance considering that once a ptfe lube is used it is difficult to go back to petro based chemicals.
I have only used ultimox on a leather sealed rifle one time. I thoroughly cleaned an Anschutz 335 and used ultimox on the leather seal and all friction points in and on the rifle. The leather piston seal quickly came apart like a cheap suit. This was my one and only experiment with ultimox and leather so I do not know weather it was the ultimox or other circumstances that destroyed the seal in short order but the seal did in fact fail quickly. The rifle was new to me and showed previous neglect so probably not a fair test but the only one I have.
Recently, we had two week of extreme cold and along with the zero type temperatures came snow. When the ground is frozen or covered with snow the starlings show up in great numbers and aggressively dominate the suet cakes I use to feed native birds and mainly my favorite, the bluebird. I took advantage of this situation to eradicate many of the pest birds that compete with our native species. During this 10-12 day stent of sub freezing temperatures, I used several different springers for the task. Point of impact could vary drastically with a couple rifles lubed with moly even as close as ten meters. The rifles I’ve lubed with ultimox were MUCH more consistent in the frigid temps. It has made me rethink my use of moly mixed with STP.
The only reason I haven’t used ultimox on all my rifles is that I tend to sell off some of my collection from time to time and we all know that a rifle once properly lubed with ptfe lube should remain so unless you care to buy and use a very expensive chemical to remove the ptfe compound. A bit of a conundrum if you ask me. A love hate situation me thinks.
I need a sticker that warns “this rifle is lubricated with PTFE type lubes”! Anyway, interesting discussion.
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I send them OFF! ;)
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Hector, I am kind of glad you found the Krytox better...it might push me on to bother trying it now...
Still think the Napier is worth considering. I know that O ring seals can really push the margin for dieseling, so that is quite an acid test you gave it. I never experienced any in with Leather, or Synthetic parachute seals.
Its white, nice and clean just plain nice to use....and works beautifully on cocking slot slides....its intended use and as such, a one lube for all the bits....so i gave it an 8 out of 10 versus a 7 out of 10 for moly in my experiments..
In that, you are quite right, but the gunsmith needs to polish the slots and the linkages/arms/shoes very well for it to work.
IF the gunsmith takes the trouble to do it, then yes, it works marvelously.
Thanks for the recommendation, it is one more of the "fine" points in a good tune.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Interested in your thoughts of the old SM50 lube since it is now been found to not contain silicone ..
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I have 4 or 5 rifles that are 100% ultimox lubricated. If I choose to use Ultimox in a rifle, I will use it exclusively as not to mix petro lubes at all with the PTFE lube. I find it easier to keep track of what a particular gun needs in the way of lubrication maintenance considering that once a ptfe lube is used it is difficult to go back to petro based chemicals.
I have only used ultimox on a leather sealed rifle one time. I thoroughly cleaned an Anschutz 335 and used ultimox on the leather seal and all friction points in and on the rifle. The leather piston seal quickly came apart like a cheap suit. This was my one and only experiment with ultimox and leather so I do not know weather it was the ultimox or other circumstances that destroyed the seal in short order but the seal did in fact fail quickly. The rifle was new to me and showed previous neglect so probably not a fair test but the only one I have.
Recently, we had two week of extreme cold and along with the zero type temperatures came snow. When the ground is frozen or covered with snow the starlings show up in great numbers and aggressively dominate the suet cakes I use to feed native birds and mainly my favorite, the bluebird. I took advantage of this situation to eradicate many of the pest birds that compete with our native species. During this 10-12 day stent of sub freezing temperatures, I used several different springers for the task. Point of impact could vary drastically with a couple rifles lubed with moly even as close as ten meters. The rifles I’ve lubed with ultimox were MUCH more consistent in the frigid temps. It has made me rethink my use of moly mixed with STP.
The only reason I haven’t used ultimox on all my rifles is that I tend to sell off some of my collection from time to time and we all know that a rifle once properly lubed with ptfe lube should remain so unless you care to buy and use a very expensive chemical to remove the ptfe compound. A bit of a conundrum if you ask me. A love hate situation me thinks.
I need a sticker that warns “this rifle is lubricated with PTFE type lubes”! Anyway, interesting discussion.
Higgy;
This is the conundrum:
PTFE removes all "sticktion" from materials at a molecular level.
Leather is a bunch of fibers that stick together
So, if you remove sticktion . . .
Temperature-induced changes resistance
Not Hygroscopic
REALLY good at high pressure/force lubrication
These are the things that make me think it is the better lube for most points in airguns. And it simplifies the gunsmith's life ;-)
Yes, you do need to tell whoever buys things from you how to lube them. Even cars.
Funny story: I once sold a car to a girl in the UK. It was her first car and it was an MGB. she asked if she needed to do anything to the car, so I casually said: "Just top up the oil when she needs it".
It NEVER occurred to me that she didn't even know where the bayonet was.
Therefore she opened the top cap and poured oil into the engine until she saw it well "topped up".
It was a heck of a mess, and she admitted it was her fault. With a friend helping me, we got that engine running smoothly back in a day of hard work after a ton of rags and some thinner.
If she hadn't been a strikingly gorgeous red-head, I would have charged her for the repair . . .
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Interested in your thoughts of the old SM50 lube since it is now been found to not contain silicone ..
I once (15 years ago) wrote a note for Abbey, explaining the three different "Silicone" compounds in "silicone oil".
Abbey was not a bad lubricant, but the use of that between aluminum and steel in somewhat salty atmospheres was a recipe for disaster.
It MAY be that they have changed the formulation lately, but back then the main silicone element was Poly-Di-Methyl Siloxane, which was safe between steels and in non-salty atmospheres.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Your a clever boy H.
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Your a clever boy H.
I’d certainly agree with that statement!
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:-[
Mum would say that I am irremediably, insatiably, relentlessly, irreverently, too-much-for-my-own-good, curious.
;-)
THANKS, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I tried red molly in one of my guns and didn't care for the results and have since only used Ultimox in my guns after talking and shooting with Hector.
The tube of red molly is now used to lube the joints on my compact tractor bucket and U-joints.
I bought a bottle off of Amazon and have lubed 4 rifles with it and still have plenty left to lube more if I need to.
I have even used it in the bolts of my powder rifles on the firing pin and firing pin spring so eliminate the bolt from freezing in cold weather.
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:-[
Mum would say that I am irremediably, insatiably, relentlessly, irreverently, too-much-for-my-own-good, curious.
;-)
THANKS, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Was Curious George your favorite as a child? ::)
-Y
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Sadly, if only it were true. In recent years there has been a distinct drop in the quality of some German rifles, particularly HW, while Diana went in the other direction, raising their quality.
HW, seem to suffer a lot of galling issues. Guide rods for mainsprings are less than spectacular to say the least.
Also HW seals have been surpassed by some margin by many of the after service kits.
The final insult is the cheap white stencilling, rather than stamping....it looks cheap and bloody horrible compared to my nicely stamped 1985 HW35. Also the stocks have gone quite plain, lacking good grain.
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Sadly, if only it were true. In recent years there has been a distinct drop in the quality of some German rifles, particularly HW, while Diana went in the other direction, raising their quality.
HW, seem to suffer a lot of galling issues. Guide rods for mainsprings are less than spectacular to say the least.
Also HW seals have been surpassed by some margin by many of the after service kits.
The final insult is the cheap white stencilling, rather than stamping....it looks cheap and bloody horrible compared to my nicely stamped 1985 HW35. Also the stocks have gone quite plain, lacking good grain.
Yea, all the good trees have been cut! :D
-Y
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It seems so.
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Was Curious George your favorite as a child? ::)
-Y
Although "Curious George" was "born" in 1941, it did not exist way back then where I lived, a small town in Durango, Mexico, called "Lerdo".
I first met Curious George with my US nephews, and later, both my kids have enjoyed some of the books.
Perhaps if Mum had been familiar with the story (she spent the 1946-1947 high school year in the US), then she might have nicknamed me "George" LOL!
;-)
HM