Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !



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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 07:04:20 AM »

PS. Nice day here so I am off sailing.

I wish you had some nice time ! Summer's  getting close for you.
But, back to the topic : you know this air rifle drives me mad. This (cold) morning, I first shot some pieces of thin steel wool (triple zero) in front of a pellet. Heretic and barbaric method, I know, but this gun is barbaric with me. >:(

Then  I tried a few shots with its usually prefered pellets, and they went all over. So I tried  shooting some Stoger X-Field (same as H&N Field Target Trophy but cheaper) and my bean-shooter began grouping a little  :o. The shot on the right isn't a flyer, it's my fault : I was so happy I relaxed too much.

I think it can't do better and neither can I.
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. EDITED!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2017, 03:14:30 PM »
I have been shamelessly despising  my good "Airstrike", a Webley Rebel clone with a wood stock,  as I  couldn't really get any consistent groups  since I bought it. Last week, I added to the multiple adjustments, repairs and tinkering I had performed time after time, once more a full cleaning  and some tough medicine recommended here, called barrel  "fire-lapping" (thanks DanD). I did it my way with some steel wool, feeling it couldn't shoot any worse. I added a careful but thorough crown polishing, once again (thanks Longhunter). Advices picked up on GTA should never be underestimated.

And to my amazement, this rifle began to shoot straight, I mean as straight as I can. So I put a 4x32 scope on it, and it kept shooting nice!!! Most of you will probably cast a condescendous glance to this paper target but for me, it's the beginning of a new era for this discredited rifle, and a lot of pleasure being able to hit a wine bottle cork  4 times upon 5 from 35 yards.

So never despair of a poor air rifle, it might  get really pleasant much later on ;D.

Ah! and I adopted a new method to set the pellet in an appropriate position before shooting, so that its skirt  won't be damaged. 
1. Drop the pellet in the small aperture of the breech block
2. Cautiously push it with the probe till it disapears. NO MORE
3. Point the barrel down and gently but firmly tap the stock about 5 times
4. Fully close the breech block. You musn't feel any resistance.

Shoot as usual ;). I think it's more efficient than tinkering a probe extension.
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Offline longhunter

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2017, 04:24:03 PM »
Well. It's about time 😂😂👍
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2017, 04:28:11 PM »
looking MUCH better and plenty good enough for loads of fun.    sometimes putting your head down and trudging along pays off, as it did for you.  nice job indeed
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2017, 05:29:58 PM »
Well. It's about time 😂😂👍

Hmm, time goes on and I'm always cautious with the wheel of time  ??? :o ;D... But yes, thank you, at least I can have real fun shooting that rifle now. The fact you told me you knew good rifles of this kind helped me a lot.

looking MUCH better and plenty good enough for loads of fun.    sometimes putting your head down and trudging along pays off, as it did for you.  nice job indeed

It was a poor tinkerer's job, for sure, and I can't say how long it's going to pay off. But thank you for your encouragement.
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Offline DanD

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2017, 08:27:40 AM »
Congratulations! Way to persevere and improve the unruly rifle.
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2017, 09:06:04 AM »
This morning (in France) I tried once again to shoot the pointed pellets I thought for a while to be the best ones for this rifle. All shots went everywhere : :o :'(. Back to the  Stoeger X-Field (same as HN Field Target, 8.64gr, a bit cheaper). Then I could hit my favourite wine bottle cork at every shot from 33 yards ;D. Pheew ! BTW, I got more than 1 spare cork ;)

How d'you say ? Pellet picky ? At least! 8)
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Offline Back_Roads

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2017, 09:14:14 AM »
 H&N Excite Hammer Pellets are the most accurate out to 35 yards with my Rebel.
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2017, 10:55:22 AM »
Is it a .177 or a .22  caliber?
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Offline Back_Roads

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2017, 08:43:31 PM »
 .177 I sold my .22 earlier this year., but it also liked the .22 excite hammers.
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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 08:54:25 PM »
"They are a pretty shoddy gun."

I can not say that about my
.22 Rebel
It is very powerful and shoots
on par with most of my 1322's
But did have to put a different rear sight on it
first one broken trying to lower it enough
the new one was for a daisy 953 and works very well for me.
just my view on my gun
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Got any pellets ??

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2018, 02:13:46 AM »
As for mine, shoddy was indeed the right word.
When I bought it, the wood stock looked nice, the rear sight a bit flimsy but as I tried to shoot, every pellet would clip the bafles in the LDC provided with the rifle, because the muzzle thread wasn't aligned with the barrel bore. That took me months to find the appropriate solution -had to buy a new "muzzle part" with the foresight, the pump pivot pin, etc. , as I had damaged it tinkering. Tried modifying the probe, changing the exhaust valve, slightly polishing the crown, etc, etc. BTW shooting without the LDC didn't improve accuracy but was really loud past 4 strokes.
That's only some days ago, when I disassembled and  cleaned all that stuff and did all I did before for the tenth time but with much more energy that it began to shoot straight. Now it can't compare with my faithfull Crosman 2100b but at least it's pleasant to shoot. Always surprising "flyers" every 8 or 10 shots.
The trigger mechanic is really amazing : if I'm not wrong, there are at least 3 springs that work in it, the one that sets the course lenght being the less useful .

Now I'm waiting for some high tide in my wallet to consider trying the Artemis/spa LR700w ::) .
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Offline Taso1000

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2018, 02:48:48 AM »
I am not familiar with your rifle but I have not seen velocity mentioned.  Do you have a chronograph to document pellet speeds?  Are the speeds consistent?  Are the speeds too fast?

Thanks,

Taso
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2018, 11:42:02 AM »
Taso,

Poor answer for an excellent question : no, I don't have any chrony and I evaluate the power of this air rifle comparing how it punctures various things, like water filled empty food cans, with the way the Crosman 2100 does :o ;D. I tried using and Android app the name of which I can't remember. Had some nice moments of fun (one shot at 1066 fps! :o :o) but it's certainly not reliable.

With those haphazard methods, I dare assume what follows :

1. With a 7.9gr domed pellet, 8 pumps with this rifle approximately equals 10 pumps with a stock Crosman 2100. But it will probably propel a 8.64gr pellet as fast and even faster with ten strokes,  when the Crosman 2100 won't be able to, even with 12 strokes or more. Extremely subjective, I admit...

2. Pellet speed are never too fast, except if you try shooting 7gr flat nosed ones (RWS Club)  with 8 strokes. The holes in the target show they turn sideways past 10 yards. Nothing surprising.

3. Quality of the barrel aside, I think one of this rifle issues lies in the conception of it "decompression chamber". Although I couldn't disassemble it (the straw barrel is strongly glued to the plastic receiver, and I was not sure I could put things back properly), I could measure that the exhaust port sends the air flow around the pellet and not behind it. That's the reason why I'm now so cautious letting the pellet fall properly, nose ahead an till I can't see it anymore, before pushing it with the probe. That's, to my opinion, the only way to be sure the pellet skirt won't be damaged.

I'll stop here and couldn't recommand you too much to ask really useful  opinion from Webley Rebel owners on GTA. May be mine was a wrong number...

Yves
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Offline Neil54

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 01:10:59 PM »
It would appear that the pellet is being damaged on loading.
Can you check for burrs with a Q tip at the breech?

I think a longer bolt pin would help.

Neil
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 02:40:22 PM »
Yes, it took some time before I discovered the pellet could frequently be  damaged when loading, as there's a significant difference between the receiver "tunnel' diameter and the barrel breech.  So if you push the pellet without caution, its skirts gets deformed. But I don't own the proper tool that would allow me to chamfer the barrel breech without further damage.

I had "tinkered" a longer probe, glueing a very small and thin piece of plastic on its end but despite of many attemps I could not achieve anything useful.

I think that besides disassembling, cleaning, adjusting and tightening every part, screw and bolt, and of course getting the silencer aligned with the barrel bore, three things allowed me to obtain at last a decent accuracy (I'm afraid I already wrote that in different posts before):

- Re-crowning the barrel with the felt cone of a Dremel, a good amount of polishing paste and some patience; I had done this once, but not enough ;
- Gently cleaning and polishing pieces 45b and 46b as refered to in the exploded drawing you'll find here attached (Webley Rebel and Norconia P1 are the same rifle at 99,9%); Then reinforcing (stretching a little) the spring refered as n 47, as if it's too weak, it will let the rifle fire without notice when pumping, even whith the safety on and without touching the trigger blade :o :(
- And finaly, performing the famous "fire-lapping" process I hadn't heard of before I was recommanded to do so in here, so to remove potential burrs inside the barrel.

Well, I consider I succeeded, for now I can shoot this air rifle with a 4X32 scope without 1) getting mad 2) adjusting the scope every five shots  ;D
That matches my modest  requirements 8)

Yves

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Offline Vin

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:07 PM »
Looks like your barrel is moving, from shot to shot. Check the breech and front sight / barrel band for movement.
Just for giggles, try placing a wedge between the barrel and pump tube, just behind the front sight.
It's either that,  or the scope is changing the point of impact due to being jarred by the pumping.
Just a couple of thoughts.

Scott,

Your advice is as simple and legitimate as usual. But as you might have noticed, I already shimmed the outer barrel to the receiver with some self vulcanising tape, and it really can't move.  The other end of the outer barrel is even more tightened to that "forepiece" that receives the pump pivot pin, the foresight and a threaded end that can receive an LDC.

So should I reinforce the interlock of  the  inner and outer barrels, at least at their ends ? I'm not sure of that.

I'm afraid my troubles may lie in
- a likely bad barrel ;
- a real gap between the receiver's pellet guide and the barrels's mouth, regularly damaging the pellets' skirts ;
- a misconception of what I call, missing the appropriate technical words in english, the "detent chamber", where the air decompresses in an unsound way that propells the pellets in inconsistant way.

Wow! I went to the limits of my poor english!!!  Did you get me ?

Within a few days, I should receive a reliable metal rear sight I ordered at a local e-bay shop  that should adapt to my rifle's dovetail. I'll wait for it before trying the famous "wrap around a tree" method.

Kind regards,

Yves
Hello Yves. Your thread grab my attention. This rifle is very popular in my country, the model based on original sharp innova.

First about safety. This rifle use dump-valve, you cannot "uncock" it after pumping. So never put pellet on the chamber unless you ready to shoot. If somehow you decided not to shoot, shoot anyway. Pumped and pellet in the chamber, I have witness several times that impact from dropped rifle will fire, even with safety on.

You maybe already aware of above fact, but never hurt to hear it again.

Now regarding accuracy issue, I think you are on the right track. Remove the barrel case (plastic) and the barrel itself for inspection. Here's how you do it:

Prepare a pot of water, the depth of the vessel should be able to contain the joint between receiver and barrel case. Put the pot on stove, heat it, but never let it boil. Dunk your bare receiver+barrel part onto the pot, keep the heat on. After approx 5min, try to wiggle plastic barrel case. If it moves, you can now pull the barrel case apart from the receiver. If not, put it back to the pot and try again every minute or two.

After the plastic barrel case is off, the steel barrel can be removed by heating the barrel using small propane torch. Heat the barrel approx 5cm from the receiver, flame away from plastic receiver. Using silicone gloves (don't use your wife baking glove), pull the barrel out of the receiver.

The process is reversible. Just use good quality 15min epoxy to put the barrel and barrel case back to the receiver. Do not use high temp epoxy. Or if it is possible, replace the original barrel with thicker one, without the plastic case.

Now you can inspect the whole part of the barrel and receiver assembly.

For reference, standard rifle should be able to put 1 cm or less grouping from 10m. Velocity on 4 pump should be between 550-600 fps.

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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2018, 06:12:40 PM »
Vincent,

First you have to know something : besides a british expert's blog (http://angryangryguncompany.blogspot.fr/2013/04/sharp-innova-dissassembly-and.html), the ONLY comprehensive information I could find about the way to disassemble properly a Sharp Innova, so the best information about how my Webley Rebel clone was built was in an Indonesian U-tube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wf9-Nn3G5c. No language problem : the way that person proceeds is so clear that I could set the sound off. So I can only consider any advice from an indonesian airgunner with interest and respect.

But... As I said more than once in this excellent forum, I'm a poor tinkerer and every time I use a screwdriver  without getting wounded, I'm happy. (Well, it happens more and more often... ;)) So  let me deliver these humble comments : 

- About the safety : it wasn't long before I found this rifle could fire without notice. So I never ever put a pellet in its barrel before I ended pumping it. But it's an excellent thing to remind it to everyone.

- About removing the barrel : I love your recipe but can't help quoting it : "Prepare a pot of water, the depth of the vessel should be able to contain the joint between receiver and barrel case. Put the pot on stove, heat it, but never let it boil. Dunk your bare receiver+barrel part onto the pot, keep the heat on. After approx 5min, try to wiggle plastic barrel case. If it moves, you can now pull the barrel case apart from the receiver. If not, put it back to the pot and try again every minute or two. " Well, usually I love my steaks raw. But you forgot the salt!!!  ;D ;D ;D
Then again " the steel barrel can be removed by heating the barrel using small propane torch." Woohoo! :o I got 3 children and 3 grandchildren and I still feel too young to suffer such a terrible end. Then you say "the process is reversible". In my case, I'm not sure... ??? ::)

I'm going to stop kidding and I really thank you for your excellent info : I'm sure some experts will find it really useful here, but I'll wait a little before trying all that.

But I'm eager to know something : as you could disassemble the barrel from the receiver, did you actually find a difference between the barrel's bore diameter and the receiver's one ?

Thanks again for your attention, and have nice shooting !

Yves
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Offline Vin

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Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2018, 12:02:31 AM »
Yves, my recipe did not involved the use of screwdriver so it is surely safe enough  ;D

I understand though. It took me about a year (and lots of frustration) before I give up and have the nerves to remove the barrel using above method.

I am not a professional tuner/repair shop, but I've helped my friends removing their barrel on several occasion (totaling maybe 8 or 9 rifles, can't remember the exact figures). So this is not a pro opinion, mind you.

I did not measure the bore/receiver diameter using caliper, so cannot answer whether the size is different. But on 2 of the rifle, I noticed excessive amount of glue left on the joint between end of barrel and receiver when I clean the glue before fitting in new barrel.

My suspicion is this glue not only fill the space around the barrel-receiver wall, but gets pushed toward the end of the barrel, and overflowing the joint. When left to dry, it creates a ridge that prevent pellet moving smoothly from receiver to the barrel when the bolt push it down.

You also mentioned that the barrel or the scope is not pointing toward same direction. There is little play on my rifle where the barrel sits on the receiver. If the glue dried without properly aligning barrel and dovetail, it can cause the problem you mentioned. The longer the barrel (in my case, I replace the barrel with longer aftermarket barrel) the misalignment is more pronounced.
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